[kirson]

So, here is my philosophical issue. Isn't the PRIV "just" an Android phone? I mean, I know we have the Blackberry Productivity Suite, but pretty soon it will be available on all Android phones, and, to be honest, I'm not hearing people mention the productivity suite as the reason they love the PRIV (but I'm open to being corrected on this one). And I know we have the slider/PKB aspect of the device, but I'm not hearing people use that as a huge improvement over BB10 or BBOS (as a matter of fact, I hear people saying the PKB is OK at best). So, philosophically speaking, isn't the praise for the PRIV at the end of the day just praise for Android? Not that there's anything wrong with that - some of my best friends use Android. But in a very real sense, isn't that just throwing in the towel on whatever made Blackberry unique (both BB10 and BBOS were definitely unique in the smart phone world as far as I can tell)?

[early2bed]

But in a very real sense, isn't that just throwing in the towel on whatever made Blackberry unique (both BB10 and BBOS were definitely unique in the smart phone world as far as I can tell)?

It certainly is. However, leadership that cared about that were fired and replace with John Chen who obviously isn't even that interested in smartphones ("It runs the Google" - What would you think of someone who said that in these forums?). Whenever the company becomes less dependent on hardware revenue then the hardware will just be a division like any other (“At a certain point in time, the economics take over”).

[d a elliott]

So, here is my philosophical issue. Isn't the PRIV "just" an Android phone? I mean, I know we have the Blackberry Productivity Suite, but pretty soon it will be available on all Android phones, and, to be honest, I'm not hearing people mention the productivity suite as the reason they love the PRIV (but I'm open to being corrected on this one). And I know we have the slider/PKB aspect of the device, but I'm not hearing people use that as a huge improvement over BB10 or BBOS (as a matter of fact, I hear people saying the PKB is OK at best). So, philosophically speaking, isn't the praise for the PRIV at the end of the day just praise for Android? Not that there's anything wrong with that - some of my best friends use Android. But in a very real sense, isn't that just throwing in the towel on whatever made Blackberry unique (both BB10 and BBOS were definitely unique in the smart phone world as far as I can tell)?

Question: What's your opinion if we substituted for "BlackBerry" above "Samsung," such that the argument reads: "So, philosophically speaking, isn't the praise for the Galaxy S6 at the end of the day just praise for Android?" Do you think this reformulation is true? If not, why not? And if you think it's not fair to substitute "Samsung" for "BlackBerry," why not?

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[kirson]

Question: What's your opinion if we substituted for "BlackBerry" above "Samsung," such that the argument reads: "So, philosophically speaking, isn't the praise for the Galaxy S6 at the end of the day just praise for Android?" Do you think this reformulation is true? If not, why not? And if you think it's not fair to substitute "Samsung" for "BlackBerry," why not?

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

That is a remarkably astute observation and a very fair point. Yes. This works exactly the same when you replace Blackberry in my comment with Samsung. I guess at that point it comes down to build quality, specs, skinned UI, but most likely most importantly to marketing and price. I know from reading other forums that other Android devices are considered "better" than Samsung, yet Samsung dominates the market. This is the world Blackberry now enters. They do have the Blackberry Experience Suite (kind of a skinned UI). They do have good specs. And they do have that PKB. But are they miles better than (or even as good as) HTC? LG? Others? I really don't know. I find the battleground on which various Android devices compete to be far less interesting than the battleground on which various alternative OS options compete.

[d a elliott]

That is a remarkably astute observation and a very fair point. Yes. This works exactly the same when you replace Blackberry in my comment with Samsung. I guess at that point it comes down to build quality, specs, skinned UI, but most likely most importantly to marketing and price. I know from reading other forums that other Android devices are considered "better" than Samsung, yet Samsung dominates the market. This is the world Blackberry now enters. They do have the Blackberry Experience Suite (kind of a skinned UI). They do have good specs. And they do have that PKB. But are they miles better than (or even as good as) HTC? LG? Others? I really don't know. I find the battleground on which various Android devices compete to be far less interesting than the battleground on which various alternative OS options compete.

Great questions. For fun, I'll offer my opinion.

I think you compete in a market where the product is more or less the same by finding ways to differentiate yourself from the competition, and off of the top of my head, I see a handful of ways that can be accomplished with Android.

(1) Price
(2) Software Features
(3) Hardware Features
(4) Security
(5) Emotion (If you own this, you'll be fun / Intelligent / Etc.)
(6) Aesthetic

Obviously, not all of these are compatible, and clearly, BlackBerry rejects the first one. I think if BlackBerry is to stand a chance, it needs to emphasize first the PKB, which is a temporary solution because obviously others can copy this. They could, however, patent how they do keyboards, which might work if the BlackBerry PKB is clearly ahead of the competition in important ways (design or functionality). Number two would be BlackBerry apps, especially the Hub. Number three would be adding gestures to the UI, making their UI as unique as TouchWiz or Sense. Number four I think is security and privacy.

I would argue that the first three are the most important in terms of BlackBerry's success in the market, but it needs to be accompanied by intelligent marketing, making it seem as though it's fun to use. You have to make people *want* it. Apple has capitalized on this best, making people feel like they need features that they hitherto never gave a second thought. The brilliance of Apple has always lay in their marketing.

In a perfect world, multiple OSes do make things more interesting. Unfortunately, it's costly for companies to have to develop for multiple OSes, and so something usually has to give, especially when they need to trim fat. Mint, for example, recently announced that it will stop developing for Windows Mobile because it's too costly relative to the benefits for them. Those kinds of announcements from companies shape the competitive landscape when it comes to availability of OSes.

To me, the migration to Android makes sense if I'm BlackBerry, but you need to take care that you do it right. And you do that by asking and answering exactly the kinds of questions you've raised.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[crucial bbq]

It certainly is. However, leadership that cared about that were fired and replace with John Chen who obviously isn't even that interested in smartphones ("It runs the Google" - What would you think of someone who said that in these forums?). Whenever the company becomes less dependent on hardware revenue then the hardware will just be a division like any other (“At a certain point in time, the economics take over”).

A quick aside: if Jimmy Fallon or Chris Hardwick said "it runs the Google" then you know it would become a trending hashtag. I also bet on the fact that if BlackBerry had a higher market share (say, 20% or so at the least) and was still running with BB10 full steam that Chen's "...it runs the Google" comment would become used as a pejorative against Android or otherwise been held to higher regard.

That is my philosophical take.

[d a elliott]

That is my philosophical take.

This would make a great signature. You should use it.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[kirson]

This would make a great signature. You should use it.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

And if you don't, would you mind if I do?

[kirson]

To me, the migration to Android makes sense if I'm BlackBerry, but you need to take care that you do it right. And you do that by asking and answering exactly the kinds of questions you've raised.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

A handful of people here on CB have been saying this for the past couple of years. To be honest, I actually think there was an investor group that pitched the idea to the RIM Board of Directors during the age of Jim and Mike, and then again during the Go Private review. I think the PowerPoint pitching the idea was leaked online and shared in the forums years ago (but this could just be a faulty memory). A really secure and tight skin on top of Android with a unique UI would have been (and still could be) a remarkably interesting device. I don't think that's what the Priv offers, though. At least not yet.

[SunshineStateFlyer]

As Bla1ze has already pointed out, the OS is new for many BlackBerry users and so it is for BlackBerry themselves. It's not that Android would be an immature system.

Of course it is not the most secure OS, but we knew that before, but due to the nature of its open source design, a lot comes down to what a manufacturer or a user makes out of it. Android is highly customizable and while you can use that to your advantage, you can also mess everything up.

I'd find it sad if BlackBerry gave up on BB10 entirely but that's just how it might be. Stay till the end, switch to the Priv, switch to any other Android phone, or iOS, or Windows phone.... there's actually plenty of choice.

Posted via CB10

[early2bed]

A really secure and tight skin on top of Android with a unique UI would have been (and still could be) a remarkably interesting device. I don't think that's what the Priv offers, though. At least not yet.

This isn't exactly a novel idea. Android manufacturers have been trying to differentiate themselves from stock Android since the beginning. Each is seeking to add their own special tweak that supposedly makes their version better. What we end up with, though, is mostly considered bloatware and delays necessary updates (including security updates).

[Blackberry-Prince]

As expected. I assumed that Loyal Blackberry 10 users are gonna dislike the Priv, whereas BB10 haters are gonna love it because they never used it.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

As Bla1ze has already pointed out, the OS is new for many BlackBerry users and so it is for BlackBerry themselves. It's not that Android would be an immature system.

Of course it is not the most secure OS, but we knew that before, but due to the nature of its open source design, a lot comes down to what a manufacturer or a user makes out of it. Android is highly customizable and while you can use that to your advantage, you can also mess everything up.

I'd find it sad if BlackBerry gave up on BB10 entirely but that's just how it might be. Stay till the end, switch to the Priv, switch to any other Android phone, or iOS, or Windows phone.... there's actually plenty of choice.

Posted via CB10

I think most of us understand that..... and I fully expect that given a few more months and the release of Android 6.0+, that BlackBerry will greatly improve the PRIV and even the security/privacy features that will allow it to standout as being better than even the BlackPhone.

Philosophically..... seem like the same old BlackBerry too me.

[d a elliott]

As expected. I assumed that Loyal Blackberry 10 users are gonna dislike the Priv, whereas BB10 haters are gonna love it because they never used it.

Which is part of the problem. I hate categories like that. I try to understand myself as a consumer, independent of brand. I try to be aware of my needs, and once I understand those and shop around, I try to give everything a fair trial regardless of brand name. I try not to be anti- or pro- anything.

Having said that, I've used Android for 6 years, not because I'm a loyalist, but because the OS has become familiar to me. I can do what I want quickly and easily. I've tried to look at iOS a few times but there were always a few things that turned me off, but I still continue to look at it when I shop for a new device because I don't want biases to blind me to a great product. It just hasn't won me over yet.

When it comes to Android, I again try my hardest to give everything a fair shake. Sometimes that leads me to LG, HTC, Motorola, Sony, Samsung, or (now) BlackBerry. I will openly admit that I hate how Samsung dominates the market, but on that same token, I can freely admit that some seasons they truly do have the best product (like Fall 2014) and I'll begrudgingly purchase it even that happens. I also don't let restocking fees deter me as they seem minor relative to keeping something that will make me unhappy for an extended period of time.

So why no BB10 if all of the above is true? Fear mostly. When I tested them, there were some things I liked, and while I can't say whether those things would've been enough to ultimately make me pull the trigger on BBOS over Android, the constant rumblings of BlackBerry pulling out of the handset business concerned me. The last thing I wanted was to end up with a deprecated device. I have no problems admitting that it was a nice OS, but I also am very happy they migrated to Android and released such a nice device in the Priv.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[HereticHermit]

It just seems that the Priv will be always getting updated and never even have a chance to settle down and just work. Imagine the nightmare when it gets updated to Marshmallow? I think the phone will literally be unusable until it eventually settles in... which will be just until the next security update comes through a month later.

Leaking Android cheese slice is a work in progress ever since it's inception. Just because it powers 80% of phones today does not make it the best out there.
We know what BB10 was and/or is capable of, given right dynamics, time and resources. Sadly the world rejected BB10 OS based on their needs and expectations. BB10 cannot hope to be worth anything in face of 80% users and large number of them with pedestrian arguments like 'lol, what security? don't use internet and you are secure, lol'.
Priv is far.. far below my expectations as BB10 user on Passport but if I have no choice when I have driven my PP to ground, I will buy Priv because Blackberry at least tries to address the security issue even if they cannot control the OS itself. Till then android suks bollocks for being this cheesy for last 7 years. Whatever Priv suffers from is not Blackberry's fault really.

[6stringriffs]

How conveniently you forget how it was like when the first BB10 device came out (Z10) and all the bugs it had, not to mention the huge return rate of the Z10.

But, I'm not a Priv owner. Gladly my decision to buy the Nexus 6P has turned out to be the wiser choice in terms of being issue-free, granular permissions, and incredibly quick OS & security updates.

I've been watching these Priv forums since the device came out. I even purchased one myself only to return it after a couple of days because of a camera noise and a bad keyboard. I returned to my faithful Passport and will stay with it until it dies.

Watching these forums is quite disturbing. Hardware issues, battery drain, SD card drivers, Google Services crashing, no File Manager, Hub issues, email delayed, overheating, SMS not coming through, a massive list of security updates, etc... there are just so, so many issues with Android. I can't imagine the Priv battery physically being able to take the constant load. Eventually it will not last 4 hours with average use.

Is this what these forums will turn into now? Just troubleshooting basic things that we never gave any thought to in BB10? It just seems that the Priv will be always getting updated and never even have a chance to settle down and just work. Imagine the nightmare when it gets updated to Marshmallow? I think the phone will literally be unusable until it eventually settles in... which will be just until the next security update comes through a month later.

I guess the Zen of BB10 is just a thing of the past. Now I understand the benefit of combining OS with hardware. As much as I think the iPhone is overrated, it's a tight system. It just works, like BB10.

Posted via CB10

[anon(8063781)]

Zen and the art of BlackBerry maintenance, huh?

�The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.�
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

[the1]

Mint, for example, recently announced that it will stop developing for Windows Mobile because it's too costly relative to the benefits for them.
Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

I'm a Windows Phone user who didn't even know what Mint was until I saw the post on Windows Central..lol. I guess using Excel and OneNote for money management does kinda leave you out that loop... *shrugs*

[the1]

How conveniently you forget how it was like when the first BB10 device came out (Z10) and all the bugs it had, not to mention the huge return rate of the Z10.

But, I'm not a Priv owner. Gladly my decision to buy the Nexus 6P has turned out to be the wiser choice in terms of being issue-free, granular permissions, and incredibly quick OS & security updates.

I would think building a mobile OS from the ground up is a little different than building a custom fork of an established OS. I think that is something that has been missed when we talk about the initial bugs of BB10, but it is what it is.That's why I have no issues with seeing certain bugs in Windows 10. People want "now" and "stable" and it baffles me that the understanding that one compromises the other is missing. Whatever man.... *shrugs*

[lesarmitage]

I've been watching these Priv forums since the device came out. I even purchased one myself only to return it after a couple of days because of a camera noise and a bad keyboard. I returned to my faithful Passport and will stay with it until it dies.

Watching these forums is quite disturbing. Hardware issues, battery drain, SD card drivers, Google Services crashing, no File Manager, Hub issues, email delayed, overheating, SMS not coming through, a massive list of security updates, etc... there are just so, so many issues with Android. I can't imagine the Priv battery physically being able to take the constant load. Eventually it will not last 4 hours with average use.

Is this what these forums will turn into now? Just troubleshooting basic things that we never gave any thought to in BB10? It just seems that the Priv will be always getting updated and never even have a chance to settle down and just work. Imagine the nightmare when it gets updated to Marshmallow? I think the phone will literally be unusable until it eventually settles in... which will be just until the next security update comes through a month later.

I guess the Zen of BB10 is just a thing of the past. Now I understand the benefit of combining OS with hardware. As much as I think the iPhone is overrated, it's a tight system. It just works, like BB10.

Posted via CB10

Wrong wrong wrong. I really like my Priv. For sale "mint condition; BB Passport.."

[TheBirdDog]

I don't see anything philosophical in your post at all.

Also, for a reminder on software bugs that apparently didn't exist BB10, search for "screen flicker." boy was I glad when they fixed that one on my Passport, just as I'm sure they will fix any and every bug you can think of on the Priv.

BB10 is great; BlackBerry on Android will get there too.

[Whydoesitmatter]

What is so philosophical about this observation?

[Matt J]

Did you intentionally reference the "Zen of Palm" which is where this notion originated?

Yes, I was a Palm OS user before I came to BlackBerry.

[early2bed]

What is so philosophical about this observation?

You know, philosophy, "What does it mean to be human?", "Do we have free will?", "What is the meaning of life?", "Is the Priv just an Android phone?"

[d a elliott]

You know, philosophy, "What does it mean to be human?", "Do we have free will?", "What is the meaning of life?", "Is the Priv just an Android phone?"

- Is there an ideal Priv to which individual Privs only approximate?
- Is the Priv conscious?
- If you were to change the features of the Priv, one by one, at what point does it stop being a Priv?
- Was the Priv created or discovered?

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