[newcollector]

And this is why android is winning. When a device is no longer supported, and if it was popular, community developers pick up the support. So you don't need to beg, cry and whine for an OEM to update an OS on android. If you take your time, learn a few things, experiment, implement, and enhance, depending on which device you choose, you could have a great time on a great phone for a longer period of time. BlackBerry used to be like this, with BBOS. A lot of you BB10 only folks don't remember these times, when BlackBerry pioneered OS mods, tweaking to your hearts content, and hurling curse words at rroyy, for not releasing the kraken!!!

These days are sadly a thing of the past, never to return. And with the security of BlackBerry Android, one is cast adrift when support stops. Unlike other Android devices, one cannot root it in order to load a custom OS. So for BlackBerry fans Security is a double-edged sword. It is blessing and bane. Secure device, but limited life due to lack of support. Pick your poison, people. As for me, I decided the vaunted Security didn't help me much as a consumer, so I have moved on to a device that has 8gigs of Ram and 128 gb of storage with the option when support stops, to root it so it can be kept current.

[valer466]

And this is why android is winning. When a device is no longer supported, and if it was popular, community developers pick up the support. So you don't need to beg, cry and whine for an OEM to update an OS on android. If you take your time, learn a few things, experiment, implement, and enhance, depending on which device you choose, you could have a great time on a great phone for a longer period of time. BlackBerry used to be like this, with BBOS. A lot of you BB10 only folks don't remember these times, when BlackBerry pioneered OS mods, tweaking to your hearts content, and hurling curse words at rroyy, for not releasing the kraken!!!

You don't say!

[Chuck Finley69]

And this is why android is winning. When a device is no longer supported, and if it was popular, community developers pick up the support. So you don't need to beg, cry and whine for an OEM to update an OS on android. If you take your time, learn a few things, experiment, implement, and enhance, depending on which device you choose, you could have a great time on a great phone for a longer period of time. BlackBerry used to be like this, with BBOS. A lot of you BB10 only folks don't remember these times, when BlackBerry pioneered OS mods, tweaking to your hearts content, and hurling curse words at rroyy, for not releasing the kraken!!!

I've been around 15 years and I never did any of that. Even normal, typical BB users just got a newer phone to replace the older device.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I've been around 15 years and I never did any of that. Even normal, typical BB users just got a newer phone to replace the older device.

It was really the Storm's poor performance required you to tinker with it, later when I got a 9650, never bothered with "shrinking" or hybrids again.... not until I bought into BB10 with my Z10. Phone was rebooting several times a day and neither BlackBerry nor Verizon had a solution... (Verizon's was I could get a new phone and wave the restocking fee - which I should have done). Came to CrackBerry and downloaded an Autoloader and the rebooting went away.... took BlackBerry/Verizon almost a month before they released the patch to users. Next is was APPS - took sideloading, converting APK's to Bars with developer keys..... in a way kinda fun, in another way it was a lot of work.

[Chuck Finley69]

It was really the Storm's poor performance required you to tinker with it, later when I got a 9650, never bothered with "shrinking" or hybrids again.... not until I bought into BB10 with my Z10. Phone was rebooting several times a day and neither BlackBerry nor Verizon had a solution... (Verizon's was I could get a new phone and wave the restocking fee - which I should have done). Came to CrackBerry and downloaded an Autoloader and the rebooting went away.... took BlackBerry/Verizon almost a month before they released the patch to users. Next is was APPS - took sideloading, converting APK's to Bars with developer keys..... in a way kinda fun, in another way it was a lot of work.

LOL. The Storm was the one device I never had. AT&T had the iPhone exclusive and Verizon had the Storm exclusive.

[Mecca EL]

I've been around 15 years and I never did any of that. Even normal, typical BB users just got a newer phone to replace the older device.

Crackberry users aren't "normal". It was the modding, hybrids, themers and app developers that made this place so cool. When BB10 launched, those same people stepped up, although not in the same way, because OS10 was so hardened, it cut its nose off to spite it's face.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Crackberry users aren't "normal". It was the modding, hybrids, themers and app developers that made this place so cool. When BB10 launched, those same people stepped up, although not in the same way, because OS10 was so hardened, it cut its nose off to spite it's face.

That's the thing that Google got right when they started off with Android, getting the "power users" the community evolved was how they gained traction. Qualcomm and Google have made all the tools to lock down Android now.... few OEMs will risk doing so for fear of becoming unpopular with the "power users". They are pretty much who OnePlus built their business on. Even Samsung chose not to make it impossible to root their devices, they have a "trip" indicator that makes devices secure for enterprise, but does allow for rooting if the users so chooses.

And you have "power users" in other markets that like to play with older hardware that is more in their budget. Which help give many devices a very long life.

[Chuck Finley69]

OEMs don't care about people using old devices, modding devices or forks of standard OS and those devices. The profits come from the people that buy new devices every 12-24 months with additional packages like Knox. Carrier devices and other models with significant pre-installed bloatware is also preferred. The more cash and the quicker you spend it are what translates into preferred customers. That's what is so great with IOS customers. Their annual spend rate is what EVERY OEM would trade family member for.

Brand loyalty is preferred only if you're spending money. No OEM likes hardware that is kept more than 12-18 months.

[Mecca EL]

if you're spending money. No OEM likes hardware that is kept more than 12-18 months.

BlackBerry came into the device market, doing exactly this. They STILL do this, and manage to sell devices with outdated hardware pretty well. Where they always did well, was with customer loyalty. They used to listen to the customer; they used to include the developer community; all the backend things that the normal user didn't care about, because the hardcore users were the ones providing the feedback.

Apple listens to their hardcore users, don't think just because you don't read about jailbreak anymore, that that's stopped.

Companies like OnePlus, who have gained market share, where stable companies consistently fail, have succeeded because of the hardcore users. Fans come onboard only AFTER there's noise being made.

Look at Nintendo. Compared to Playstation and Xbox, which in Nintendo land are still the new boys, Nintendo STILL manage to smoke the new kids because they listen to their community. The one time they didn't, with Wii U, sales reflected. You can't marginalize community support. That's why BlackBerry failed.

[Chuck Finley69]

BlackBerry came into the device market, doing exactly this. They STILL do this, and manage to sell devices with outdated hardware pretty well. Where they always did well, was with customer loyalty. They used to listen to the customer; they used to include the developer community; all the backend things that the normal user didn't care about, because the hardcore users were the ones providing the feedback.

Apple listens to their hardcore users, don't think just because you don't read about jailbreak anymore, that that's stopped.

Companies like OnePlus, who have gained market share, where stable companies consistently fail, have succeeded because of the hardcore users. Fans come onboard only AFTER there's noise being made.

Look at Nintendo. Compared to Playstation and Xbox, which in Nintendo land are still the new boys, Nintendo STILL manage to smoke the new kids because they listen to their community. The one time they didn't, with Wii U, sales reflected. You can't marginalize community support. That's why BlackBerry failed.

What BB community? In the grand scheme, we've always been a small neighborhood at best. I'm not sure where you're getting sales figures, BB never sold hardware well. They sold a new idea, mobile email and mobile internet that was better mousetrap 15 years ago. Then Android/IOS changed that. I've been a customer 15 years and felt they got more incorrect than correct most of time.

[Soapm]

I've been around 15 years and I never did any of that. Even normal, typical BB users just got a newer phone to replace the older device.

I may not be normal but I never replaced a phone just to have a newer phone. My first BB was a two way pager, I think it was a 850. Then the job gave me a 7280. Then they started bring your own device and I kept my 7280 until people teased me about the wide screen on my hip. That's when I got the curve with the trackball.

I kept the curve until I got a 9900 and kept the 9900 until I got a Classic. I recently replaced my Classic because the battery was dying mid day.

So in all these years I've had 4 phones and a pager and I've only carried blackberry phones.

ps... And I only replaced the curve because it fell in the toilet while I was pulling up my pants, if not for that, I may have never owned a 9900 which was the best phone I ever had. I still keep it as my standby...

[Chuck Finley69]

I may not be normal but I never replaced a phone just to have a newer phone. My first BB was a two way pager, I think it was a 850. Then the job gave me a 7280. Then they started bring your own device and I kept my 7280 until people teased me about the wide screen on my hip. That's when I got the curve with the trackball.

I kept the curve until I got a 9900 and kept the 9900 until I got a Classic. I recently replaced my Classic because the battery was dying mid day.

So in all these years I've had 4 phones and a pager and I've only carried blackberry phones.

ps... And I only replaced the curve because it fell in the toilet while I was pulling up my pants, if not for that, I may have never owned a 9900 which was the best phone I ever had. I still keep it as my standby...

The point of my earlier comment was that OEMs don't like the loyal customer unless they're replacing devices on a regular basis.

[TheBirdDog]

The point of my earlier comment was that OEMs don't like the loyal customer unless they're replacing devices on a regular basis.

I agree with you, generally speaking. And, in BlackBerry's case, this has always been their challenge because, for the most part, the next generation of BlackBerry device has rarely 'wowed' the entire user base because their trusty old 'Berry that's been going for years still works better than ever and they don't really have the need for upgrading.

...which allows me to make an attempt at turning this thread back on topic:

I actually do see BlackBerry having a pretty good shot at making money on subscriptions for their software.

If they stepped up their game a bit more (ie: bring Blend to Android, as well as a file manager with secure remote access, etcetera), I could see them offering these services with a 'freemium' model, providing BlackBerry branded devices the "Premium" version of all of the software for a set duration of time (2 years seems reasonable) after which point they would need to pay for it like any user on a non-BlackBerry branded device would.

[Chuck Finley69]

I agree with you, generally speaking. And, in BlackBerry's case, this has always been their challenge because, for the most part, the next generation of BlackBerry device has rarely 'wowed' the entire user base because their trusty old 'Berry that's been going for years still works better than ever and they don't really have the need for upgrading.

...which allows me to make an attempt at turning this thread back on topic:

I actually do see BlackBerry having a pretty good shot at making money on subscriptions for their software.

If they stepped up their game a bit more (ie: bring Blend to Android, as well as a file manager with secure remote access, etcetera), I could see them offering these services with a 'freemium' model, providing BlackBerry branded devices the "Premium" version of all of the software for a set duration of time (2 years seems reasonable) after which point they would need to pay for it like any user on a non-BlackBerry branded device would.

I believe that was the idea with BB10 and BBAndroid hardware in the beginning. I believe that only BB knows the internal data on the usage and profitability of their software. Chen has shown a willingness to do things for profit. He's always given me the impression that he relies on data heavily. This leads me to believe, the data says that people don't pay in enough quantity to support BlackBerry subscription based software model at consumer level.

[TheBirdDog]

I believe that was the idea with BB10 and BBAndroid hardware in the beginning. I believe that only BB knows the internal data on the usage and profitability of their software. Chen has shown a willingness to do things for profit. He's always given me the impression that he relies on data heavily. This leads me to believe, the data says that people don't pay in enough quantity to support BlackBerry subscription based software model at consumer level.

Yes, but I believe, that it's also one of those chicken or the egg sort of scenarios where there isn't enough of an enticing offer for people to even subscribe to at this point.