05-04-15 09:35 PM
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  1. FrankUnderwood's Avatar
    It's the same thing with vehicles. Everyone is telling people to get with the times and get smaller fuel efficient hybrid...etc cars yet pick up trucks and larger vehicle sales continue to rise.

    If you like all touch...Great. But you have to realize some still like physical keyboard devices. Neither is wrong.

    Posted via CB10 on the President Underwood version of the BlackBerry Classic
    D3C0D3R, bjschey and Umaima_B_Dia like this.
    03-13-15 08:08 AM
  2. Tim Heard's Avatar
    Bingo.

    But the all-touch users also need to stop telling us keyboard users what we want or to "get on with the times".
    03-13-15 09:08 AM
  3. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    It's the same thing with vehicles. Everyone is telling people to get with the times and get smaller fuel efficient hybrid...etc cars yet pick up trucks and larger vehicle sales continue to rise.

    If you like all touch...Great. But you have to realize some still like physical keyboard devices. Neither is wrong.

    Posted via CB10 on the President Underwood version of the BlackBerry Classic
    The comparison doesn't work at all.
    When was the last time that the keyboard market had some growth?
    2008/2009?
    We are sitting on a 99.9 to a
    0.1 split nowadays. For every 999 people who bought a touchscreen phone, there is one sold with a keyboard.

    It's ok to like keyboards, but please come back to reality. It's one of the smallest niches in the industry. It's ok to like physical keys. Talking weird things about more and more people buying those phones though, is a complete delusion.

    It's correct that none of the 2 parties is wrong though. They like what they like. And I wouldn't expect fanboys to accept that their physical keyboard is a road into oblivion for BlackBerry. But I expect BlackBerry to not act like a fanboy, and instead doing what makes business sense.
    And that's targeting the 999 people, instead of the 1 out of 1000.
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    03-13-15 10:13 AM
  4. early2bed's Avatar
    We are sitting on a 99.9 to a 0.1 split nowadays. For every 999 people who bought a touchscreen phone, there is one sold with a keyboard.
    Interesting math. If Blackberry's market share is 0.4% then that's 4 out of 1000 phones sold, currently, are Blackberrys. Perhaps 2 or 3 of them are keyboard phones. Are there any other keyboard phone models out there?
    03-13-15 10:23 AM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    But the all-touch users also need to stop telling us keyboard users what we want or to "get on with the times".
    Like what you like. As long as it's not illegal or amoral, I don't really see why someone should tell you that you prefer touchscreens.

    Doesn't change the fact that one strategy is sure to never let BlackBerry grow again (focus on 1 instead of 999. And the ratio isn't getting better. It's thr contrary, as the keyboard market basically disappeared).
    Which wouldn't be the case if they'd focus on touchscreen phones and would do keyboard phones as well.

    Now, this was oversimplified because BlackBerry always shoots themselves in the foot with their pricing and specs, so I should be clearer:
    BlackBerry needs current, up to date touchscreen phones with modern tech in them. The Classic and Leap are the polar opposites of that. They are overpriced, underspecced, made from cheap plastic and use hardware that wouldn't even have been high end in 2011.

    You however, as a single person, have every right to prefer physical keyboard phones.
    I actually don't even think that anyone is saying otherwise.
    The complaints are about BlackBerry not understanding themselves, that a keyboard focus will destroy the company (not the only reason, but BlackBerry has one of the worst product portfolios in the industry. They are also on the edge of being lunatic, when we look at the pricing. Currently BlackBerry commands a 100% premium, on all of their offerings (apart from the Passport), compared to the competition with similarly specced phones. As we saw the last earning calls already: that strategy doesn't work. It makes for negative growth. Or in other words: the overpriced keyboard focus doesn't seem to work).

    Focusing keyboards: sure death of the handset division is imminent.
    Focusing touchscreens: the patient might live long enough to die another day.

    That's the choices BlackBerry has.
    And everyone who is applauding BlackBerry for more keyboard phones, everyone who says "well, leave BlackBerry if you don't like keyboards", everyone who still doesn't get, that they are one of tiniest minorities in the market, is actively destroying the BlackBerry handset division.
    You can love keyboards all you like, 999 out of 1000 don't want them.
    03-13-15 10:31 AM
  6. Grabber5.0's Avatar
    The comparison doesn't work at all.
    When was the last time that the keyboard market had some growth?
    2008/2009?
    We are sitting on a 99.9 to a
    0.1 split nowadays. For every 999 people who bought a touchscreen phone, there is one sold with a keyboard.
    The argument works both ways. You say nobody makes them because nobody buys them. I think nobody can buy them because nobody makes them. When there are no good options with keyboards, it becomes self-fulfilling, and everyone just assumes the manufacturers are right. I don't appreciate anyone removing the choice! If the only choices available are iPhones and Android phones, it won't be because nobody wants an alternative.

    Posted via CB10
    Tim Heard likes this.
    03-13-15 10:48 AM
  7. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The argument works both ways. You say nobody makes them because nobody buys them. I think nobody can buy them because nobody makes them. When there are no good options with keyboards, it becomes self-fulfilling, and everyone just assumes the manufacturers are right. I don't appreciate anyone removing the choice! If the only choices available are iPhones and Android phones, it won't be because nobody wants an alternative.

    Posted via CB10
    No, the argument doesn't work both ways, because the moment touchscreen phones came into existence, keyboard phone sales started to fall off a cliff.
    The buyer preference was obvious, just with the iPhone on the market already.

    Fast forward and Android manufacturers stopped to make keyboard and slider phones nearly all together.
    Android had a competition with itself, concerning form factors. The obvious winner was the touchscreen.

    BB10? Touchscreen outsells keyboard, and we all know it (I don't give an eff if it was because of discounts or not. If one prefers keyboards, a 200 dollar discount on a Z10 shouldn't change the initial preference)

    WM? PDAs were touchscreen devices.
    Palm? A slider, but normally touchscreens.

    So, the keyboard loses in the Android world since 2007, never had traction in the PDA world except for sliders to begin with and in the BlackBerry world, the keyboard loses since BB10.

    The moment itself, people had the choice between keyboard phones/sliders and touchscreens on the same OS (Android/BB10/WM), people went mostly with the touchscreen.
    If we compare different OS, like Android and iOS to BBOS, it's obvious that the keyboard completely lost its importance around 2008/2009.
    Those were the moments in which BlackBerry gained a higher userbase, but started to lose marketshare. Thus meaning that the market outgrew BlackBerry. And with what devices? With touchscreens.

    It's also obvious afterwards and in focus groups.
    When we look at the keyboard marketshare today, and why it got there, it's just wrong to say that there is a big market out there.
    For pretty much 95% of our daily activities on smartphones, a physical keyboard is either not needed or redundant and takes screen space away.

    Virtual keyboards are also faster (yes, this also means more accurate. You can't be faster when you write more mistakes, can you?), more versatile, allow to write in different languages etc.

    So I always wondered why people clamoured to the myth of the physical keyboard being a positive differentiator that will help BlackBerry to find back to their old glory, or would help BlackBerry to sell more devices. Heck, even dumbphones have a higher marketshare than keyboard smartphones, and that already tells us more than we wanted to know.

    I'll agree with you on one point though: the keyboard market is definitely bigger than 0.1%. No doubt about that.
    But BlackBerry will probably never reach their potential customers, because of their lunatic pricing and spec strategy. "No one" who likes keyboards, but can afford an iPhone will settle for a Classic. Just won't happen.
    And vice versa, no one who was able to afford a Curve (200$) will settle for a Classic, because the phone is far too expensive.

    So even if the potential market would be in the 5-10% regions, BlackBerry can't tap into that well of customers, because of their uncompetitive offerings.
    03-13-15 11:53 AM
  8. blazinfashion's Avatar
    For previous Torch users, was weight balance much of an issue? It seems with this being so long, balance might be an issue, but obviously they have their prototype done and seem to be happy with it...
    I never found weight balance to be an issue with my original Torch 9800, which was also my first introduction to BlackBerry. I have the Passport now, and it's obviously a marked improvement from any of their other devices I've used. Bottom line, I like a phone with a physical keyboard. In love with my new Passport.

    Posted via CB10
    03-13-15 03:30 PM
  9. ToniCipriani's Avatar
    The comparison doesn't work at all.
    When was the last time that the keyboard market had some growth?
    2008/2009?
    We are sitting on a 99.9 to a
    0.1 split nowadays. For every 999 people who bought a touchscreen phone, there is one sold with a keyboard.

    It's ok to like keyboards, but please come back to reality. It's one of the smallest niches in the industry. It's ok to like physical keys. Talking weird things about more and more people buying those phones though, is a complete delusion.

    It's correct that none of the 2 parties is wrong though. They like what they like. And I wouldn't expect fanboys to accept that their physical keyboard is a road into oblivion for BlackBerry. But I expect BlackBerry to not act like a fanboy, and instead doing what makes business sense.
    And that's targeting the 999 people, instead of the 1 out of 1000.
    Manual transmission vs Automatic transmission

    Sure, autos are easy and allow idiots to text and drive, but the feel of driving a manual transmission is unparalleled.
    03-13-15 03:53 PM
  10. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I really don't see that slider succeed unfortunately. It's a concept that has never been successful so why should that suddenly change a time like this? BlackBerry is a nice player but they're starting to produce out of scope.
    There are a few fans here who will be very very happy with the new device but that's about it I guess.
    Take a look at the Passport. This is real innovation and it was quite successful, measured by expectations, but it's still nowhere near what would be considered a success by market figures.
    Fair enough on the Passport comments, but BlackBerry's BoD own their definition of success, not you or even the tech media... but not releasing a slider doesn't bring BlackBerry any closer to anyone's definition of success.

    ...and repeating what has already been said, the BB10 slider got more media attention than the HTC One M9 or the LG G4 did, and I scour the mass market tech blogs daily (and the Slider got mainstream press mentions in the "general interest" section, not buried under the horoscopes, so make of that what you will... I make of it that this device is likely to have"buzz" around its release that would tend to result in 'increased' sales, if the device is otherwise decent (and of course it runs BB10 so its relative 'success' will again be defined by BlackBerry's BoD, not the Bovine Gastric Reject.)
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 03-13-15 at 04:49 PM.
    salokin15 likes this.
    03-13-15 04:29 PM
  11. D3C0D3R's Avatar
    No, the argument doesn't work both ways, because the moment touchscreen phones came into existence, keyboard phone sales started to fall off a cliff.
    The buyer preference was obvious, just with the iPhone on the market already.

    Fast forward and Android manufacturers stopped to make keyboard and slider phones nearly all together.
    Android had a competition with itself, concerning form factors. The obvious winner was the touchscreen.

    BB10? Touchscreen outsells keyboard, and we all know it (I don't give an eff if it was because of discounts or not. If one prefers keyboards, a 200 dollar discount on a Z10 shouldn't change the initial preference)

    WM? PDAs were touchscreen devices.
    Palm? A slider, but normally touchscreens.

    So, the keyboard loses in the Android world since 2007, never had traction in the PDA world except for sliders to begin with and in the BlackBerry world, the keyboard loses since BB10.

    The moment itself, people had the choice between keyboard phones/sliders and touchscreens on the same OS (Android/BB10/WM), people went mostly with the touchscreen.
    If we compare different OS, like Android and iOS to BBOS, it's obvious that the keyboard completely lost its importance around 2008/2009.
    Those were the moments in which BlackBerry gained a higher userbase, but started to lose marketshare. Thus meaning that the market outgrew BlackBerry. And with what devices? With touchscreens.

    It's also obvious afterwards and in focus groups.
    When we look at the keyboard marketshare today, and why it got there, it's just wrong to say that there is a big market out there.
    For pretty much 95% of our daily activities on smartphones, a physical keyboard is either not needed or redundant and takes screen space away.

    Virtual keyboards are also faster (yes, this also means more accurate. You can't be faster when you write more mistakes, can you?), more versatile, allow to write in different languages etc.

    So I always wondered why people clamoured to the myth of the physical keyboard being a positive differentiator that will help BlackBerry to find back to their old glory, or would help BlackBerry to sell more devices. Heck, even dumbphones have a higher marketshare than keyboard smartphones, and that already tells us more than we wanted to know.

    I'll agree with you on one point though: the keyboard market is definitely bigger than 0.1%. No doubt about that.
    But BlackBerry will probably never reach their potential customers, because of their lunatic pricing and spec strategy. "No one" who likes keyboards, but can afford an iPhone will settle for a Classic. Just won't happen.
    And vice versa, no one who was able to afford a Curve (200$) will settle for a Classic, because the phone is far too expensive.

    So even if the potential market would be in the 5-10% regions, BlackBerry can't tap into that well of customers, because of their uncompetitive offerings.
    Man there are so many wrong "facts" in your post, it's hard to not nitpick between all of them X_X

    In short, your logic is wrong.

    The reason keyboard phones "died off" in relation to BlackBerry is not because consumers didn't want keyboards, but because consumers wanted more powerful phones, and with that, an app selection.

    Your part about BlackBerry hardware being outdated is also an irrelevant argument. BlackBerry10 is extremely efficient and does not require many resources to run, so it's not a limiting factor of the OS. Everything is still smooth, apps still run amazing, that kind of thing.

    Apple on the other hand, intentionally decides not to give their customers good hardware not because it doesn't need it, but because the customs put up with a laggy OS that doesn't properly multitask because they have such a large consumerbase already, meaning they have developer support behind making many apps.

    That last bit is a complete lie. I can easily afford an iPhone, yet I'd choose the Classic any day over that! Same with my mom. And sister. And many others. (though I'd rather the Passport seeing as it's experimental and has a larger keyboard).

    They really do have competitive offerings, I don't get where you get that from.

    Praise be unto our Lord Squircle | Passport SQW100-1/10.3.1.2072
    hlg8888 likes this.
    03-13-15 06:30 PM
  12. anon(8163415)'s Avatar
    I fully agree BlackBerry should continue to release well designed BB10 Full Touch (None Physical) Smart Phones. Because the Mainstream Consumer & the Business/Enterprise User Base is asking for them. They must have something competitive in the market place, in direct competition against iOS and Android.
    That said, I understand the concentration with regards to physical keyboard devices. It's something BlackBerry is the BEST AT DOING. And is a niche market segment that has absolutely no competition. For example, the Passport is by far the most unique innovating smart phone on the planet, and it has gotten a lot of free publicity by various none bias reviewers and celebs.

    The Slider is basically the best of both worlds, and again a type of device that currently does not have competition. Its another BB10 smart phone that will end up being highly innovative and unique. Something that "WILL" stand out from the competition.
    But while BlackBerry fiddles around with these unique devices, they still must have devices that current Android and iOS users desire regardless. They need to somehow cater to both factions.

    John Chen mentioned 4 new Smart Phones for 2015. 3 of them were already mentioned > Leap, Slider & that new Porsche device. What other device are we looking at? Passport 2? Classic 2? Z50 Full Touch? Z10 upgrade Full Touch? Or another Hybrid device?
    Personally Passport & Classic are more than enough physical keyboard phones for the entire 2015 year. Slider will serve both worlds, and Leap caters to the low/mid budget Full Touch. What's Next? I hope they consider a "High End" Full Touch device. There was a reason why the BlackBerry Z30 won Best Smart Phone of 2014 with many design awards. I call for a Z50 or perhaps called BlackBerry Touch
    eyesopen1111 and D3C0D3R like this.
    03-14-15 02:21 AM
  13. hlg8888's Avatar
    If you state that BB10 doesn't actually require an upgrade of the internals, why should Blackberry invest in a full touchscreen high-end device to compete with the IPhone 6 plus and the Samsung S6, the only difference would be the operating system, right?

    Posted via CB10
    03-14-15 07:23 AM
  14. D3C0D3R's Avatar
    If you state that BB10 doesn't actually require an upgrade of the internals, why should Blackberry invest in a full touchscreen high-end device to compete with the IPhone 6 plus and the Samsung S6, the only difference would be the operating system, right?

    Posted via CB10
    All I'm saying by that, is that BlackBerry's current devices do still stand up in a fight vs say, the S5/S6 and latest iPhone's.

    That being said, higher specs will definitely improve the experience going forward for simulating the Android runtime or running resource intensive apps (i.e. Modern Combat 5 which basically isn't compatible with BlackBerry's older than the Z30 due to its high resource usage). That's really the only example I could find, and that doesn't affect the average consumer too too much seeing as BlackBerry's main consumers don't have any intention of playing those types of games on their BlackBerry.

    Most other times the extra resources would just allow for future development and new features of the OS.

    If they invest to have competing specs with the iPhone 6+ and S6, it'll be a nobrainer between the three since BlackBerry10 OS requires much less hardware power to run it's OS on. The extra resources are for developers galore.

    Praise be unto our Lord Squircle | Passport SQW100-1/10.3.1.2072
    03-14-15 08:21 AM
  15. Titaniumedge's Avatar
    I really hope they learned from the torch. I loved my torch but the slider mechanism messed up so often that it was in for repair more than I used it. It looks like the slider might just be the keyboard and camera and I really hope that is the case

    Posted via CB10
    03-14-15 11:06 AM
  16. D3C0D3R's Avatar
    I really hope they learned from the torch. I loved my torch but the slider mechanism messed up so often that it was in for repair more than I used it. It looks like the slider might just be the keyboard and camera and I really hope that is the case

    Posted via CB10
    My only issues ever with the slider was that the display cables (strips) would lose their connection after a couple years. To get it to work I'd have to hold the screen tightly against the back of the phone while opening or else it'd be a rainbow of colours that aren't very pretty :P

    As long as they get the hardware reliability right on this phone, I'm down for sure!

    Praise be unto our Lord Squircle | Passport SQW100-1/10.3.1.2072
    03-14-15 11:53 AM
  17. Titaniumedge's Avatar
    The biggest change that I hope they made is putting the hardware buttons and microphones etc. on the screen portion instead of the slider so if the slider craps out you still have a fully functioning touch screen phone
    03-14-15 11:57 AM
  18. tinochiko's Avatar
    The biggest change that I hope they made is putting the hardware buttons and microphones etc. on the screen portion instead of the slider so if the slider craps out you still have a fully functioning [b]touch [/n]screen phone
    Would be nice but no idea about the ergonomics of that.. sounds like the top would be too bulky.. it might even make the keyboard more likely to snap off, this is from someone who knows nothing about ergonomics, just assuming..

    Check Out TechCraze
    Attached Thumbnails New Device - Slider with Curved display, coming 2015!-1426351472748_864322.jpg  
    03-14-15 12:05 PM
  19. ingris's Avatar
    Would be amazing if this slider had the key board of the Q10 with the touch capacitive function of the passport. Dream phone!

    Posted via CB10
    03-17-15 03:55 PM
  20. Xadion's Avatar
    Man there are so many wrong "facts" in your post, it's hard to not nitpick between all of them X_X

    In short, your logic is wrong.

    The reason keyboard phones "died off" in relation to BlackBerry is not because consumers didn't want keyboards, but because consumers wanted more powerful phones, and with that, an app selection.

    Your part about BlackBerry hardware being outdated is also an irrelevant argument. BlackBerry10 is extremely efficient and does not require many resources to run, so it's not a limiting factor of the OS. Everything is still smooth, apps still run amazing, that kind of thing.

    Apple on the other hand, intentionally decides not to give their customers good hardware not because it doesn't need it, but because the customs put up with a laggy OS that doesn't properly multitask because they have such a large consumerbase already, meaning they have developer support behind making many apps.

    That last bit is a complete lie. I can easily afford an iPhone, yet I'd choose the Classic any day over that! Same with my mom. And sister. And many others. (though I'd rather the Passport seeing as it's experimental and has a larger keyboard).

    They really do have competitive offerings, I don't get where you get that from.

    Praise be unto our Lord Squircle | Passport SQW100-1/10.3.1.2072
    Aside from the first android phone on t-mobile and the "droid" line- and the Pre line (and I'll argue forever that webos was and is superior to all mobile os options) there where zero keyboard android phones that held top end specs- and this was during the high growth and stratification of UI overlay era where specs where VERY much needed in the android world to survive even one OS update. This is what killed keyboards on android, as they are associated with lower end androids.

    Posted via CB10
    Grabber5.0 likes this.
    03-17-15 07:09 PM
  21. FishhPoohh's Avatar
    This phone without that hideous slider would be an awesome Z30 upgrade if it came with specs better than the Passport

    So no upgraded Z30 replacement
    03-19-15 03:41 PM
  22. D3C0D3R's Avatar
    This phone without that hideous slider would be an awesome Z30 upgrade if it came with specs better than the Passport

    So no upgraded Z30 replacement
    Bra, that slider was amazing

    Praise be unto our Lord, Squircle | Passport SQW100-1/10.3.1.2558
    Tim Heard likes this.
    03-19-15 04:12 PM
  23. anon(8163415)'s Avatar
    This phone without that hideous slider would be an awesome Z30 upgrade if it came with specs better than the Passport

    So no upgraded Z30 replacement
    Give it a chance. I believe the slider is going to surprise many people. Even Android and iOS users too.
    D3C0D3R and Blacklatino like this.
    03-20-15 09:24 AM
  24. anon(870071)'s Avatar
    When will this slider be released in the wild?

     PassportSQW100-1 / 10.3.1.2480
    I'm. GIDDY Can't. Wait for this beast to come out!!!

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    anon(5990673) and D3C0D3R like this.
    03-20-15 09:33 AM
  25. hlg8888's Avatar
    If the Leap is not the successor to the Z30, who is it meant for then?

    Posted via CB10
    Steelsheen likes this.
    03-20-15 10:37 AM
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