[undone]

OHA wouldn't permit it anyway.

PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2789

Only if it still contained the Android runtime in any future development would it really matter.

BB10 without ART would be interesting to see.

[conite]

Only if it still contained the Android runtime.

That's what we were discussing - whether or not the Android Runtime would get updates.

PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2789

[Bluenoser63]

Well it's an interesting predicament for BlackBerry to be in, they have gone out their way to convince large corporate companies and governments they should use BB10 as its the most secure platform, and now begin to drop them and not give them refreshed handsets, if that's the case then BlackBerry have just screwed all of their high end corporate clients.

I think time will tell, although I cancelled my Priv pre order I am still going to spend some time with one at CPW and see what it's like, but it's going to be hard for me to let go of my passport.

"I roll with 2 passports, 1 for travelling and 1 for communicating"

Yes. Finally someone gets it. They worked on getting companies/governments to upgrade from BBOS to BB10 and then did an about face and killed the platform. With no announcement of new BB10 phones and the announcement that they won't be upgrading the BB10 OS, they have screwed them. I have already told our BlackBerry account reps that we would no longer be using their future products and would not be moving forward on our BES licensees. They have pissed off this IT manager/software developer and I will stay away from BlackBerry for any enterprise work. They seem to be wanting to sell consumer Android phones because the Priv isn't close to being enterprise ready. And the BES implementation is designed for BB10 phones with other OS support, but if you look at the other MDM solutions, especially Cisci/Meraki, BlackBerry is falling so behind, they will never catch up and their vision for Enterprise Software Solutions isn't going to succeed.

NOTE: Check my past posting and I defended BlackBerry to the nth degree. I will no longer defend a company that has gone out of the way to **** me off.

[Bluenoser63]

They never bought them anyway. BB10 device footprint in Enterprise is essentially non-existent.

PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2789

You haven't been to Canada have you? I see a lot of BB10 devices when I ever go to a government/enterprise function. I would say that over 25% of the people have a BB10 device.

I was at a dinner function recently and every single person (all government/business people) at our table had BB10 phones.

[Bbnivende]

I'd like BB10 as an autoloader download that can be applied to an Android Priv:

Plug your Priv into your USB port.

Run the Autoloader.

Autoloader detects Priv, warns you up and down the dunes that you're about to totally wipe out all data on your device and install BlackBerry 10, and off it goes.

Reboot.

BB10.

"But it will cost One Million Thousand Billion Dollars to develop drivers for BB10 to run on the Slider hardware!" people say as if it's true.

I say "It will cost a few million bucks, TOPS."

No one can say who is right except BlackBerry. BlackBerry isn't interested in supporting BB10 customers, unless you count that minimal March 2016 patch "support", which I and many BB10 enthusiasts simply don't.

I'm waiting for BlackBerry to relent and get BB10 ported to the Slider. Until then, I have to keep my eyes out for other options.

This is an eerie repeat of the BBOS / BB10 transition: BlackBerry treats loyal customers like poo they need to scrape off their shoo, and we're expected to follow them to a new platform.

As we all know, BlackBerry OS users DIDN'T move to BB10 in droves, because BlackBerry didn't try very hard to make that transition easy. So, users just said "if I have to switch, I might as well switch to Android or iOS". And they did.

Now, BB10 is being mothballed, and BlackBerry is saying "Isn't this Exciting! Android! Come on, BB10 fans, you'll love it on Android by BlackBerry!"

To which I say "if I have to switch, why switch to what YOU tell me to switch to? I can choose for myself."

And, being scraped off their shoo, I am not bound to them at all, so my first effort to getting used to something else is going to be to try using iOS 9 as my daily driver, because I own an iPhone 6 Plus already, and I'm not going to give BlackBerry $1000 of my hard earned money when they just treat me like poo.

If I do end up going Android, it'll be a Nexus device. Scroo Yoo, BlackBoory. All the better if all the "BlackBerry Goodness" on Android OS can be had for free.

Well BlackBerry has not ever made a successful all touch phone. Not with BBOS or BB10 and maybe not even in Android.

Bla1Ze says "That's totally not their play in the Android world though. There's plenty of full touch devices running Android, Priv is the only one using a KB."

Now we see the Vienna. BlackBerry is all about the PKB. It is what they do best and the primary reason to buy a BlackBerry.

Maybe in the future they can add enough goodness to compete with the all touch Nexen etc but currently they can not. The only way that they can continue to sell PKB devices is to lower their costs and to gain access to the Google Play store. Android PKB devices are their only play at this point in time.

So really, the consumer who feels they need a PKB has only one choice. The PRIV , Vienna and what comes next.


As far as BB10 is concerned. Any new models will likely not have any Android apps. Few would buy a phone that has virtually no ecosystem. Not even Enterprise.

BlackBerry put out the Classic and Passport and too few purchased them. Troy says that they lost $100 per device sold. Personally, I would have sold the Vienna instead of the Classic and a Slider and a great all touch using BB10 and run time but it is too late. They put all of their efforts into devices that the market did not like. So that is why there should be no BB10 on the PRIV.

They would likely lose $100 for every one sold.

[buwee]

I am still going to spend some time with one at CPW and see what it's like,

I think you need buy one, set it up to your liking and play with it in your own home to get a real feel on whether or not this is the device for you. In my experience, playing with any device in a store never really gives you the true feeling because a) these things usually have all kinds of anti theft attachments on them, b) you can't put your own apps and data on them, c) they're usually in some sort of retail demo mode so you don't really get to play and customize the way you want, d) they're probably not even updated and customers do all kinds of weird things to them, etc. etc. Once you play with it in your own environment and if its not for you...just return it.

This device is not without it's fair share of bugs but which new device is ever bug free? I now, truly love this phone and I was a huge skeptic before this phone was released.
Just my 2 cents...

[cbvinh]

You missed the part where they are trying to reverse engineer because they don't have access to the chip set documentation. And these are just a bunch of guys. With the documentation and a large company who works with the chip set manufacture, the process is much simpler.

You brought up open source graphics drivers as the example. Reverse engineering is a reality of that because there are proprietary components in the commercial drivers that can't be open sourced.

Now you're saying to use a large company, documentation, and support from the chip manufacturer, which puts it back at too expensive for BlackBerry, given the number of sales they'd gain.

[buwee]

Yes. Finally someone gets it. They worked on getting companies/governments to upgrade from BBOS to BB10 and then did an about face and killed the platform. With no announcement of new BB10 phones and the announcement that they won't be upgrading the BB10 OS, they have screwed them. I have already told our BlackBerry account reps that we would no longer be using their future products and would not be moving forward on our BES licensees. They have pissed off this IT manager/software developer and I will stay away from BlackBerry for any enterprise work. They seem to be wanting to sell consumer Android phones because the Priv isn't close to being enterprise ready. And the BES implementation is designed for BB10 phones with other OS support, but if you look at the other MDM solutions, especially Cisci/Meraki, BlackBerry is falling so behind, they will never catch up and their vision for Enterprise Software Solutions isn't going to succeed.

NOTE: Check my past posting and I defended BlackBerry to the nth degree. I will no longer defend a company that has gone out of the way to **** me off.

Yeah, I've seen your posts - Now you're just a disgruntled former developer spreading negativity all over the place.
BTW: Why are you still here if you have no interest in any relationship with Blackberry any longer?

[Bluenoser63]

You brought up open source graphics drivers as the example. Reverse engineering is a reality of that because there are proprietary components in the commercial drivers that can't be open sourced.

Now you're saying to use a large company, documentation, and support from the chip manufacturer, which puts it back at too expensive for BlackBerry, given the number of sales they'd gain.

Do you actually have the price it would cost BlackBerry to create the drivers. If Open Source projects CAN create them for little money, why would it cost millions upon millions of dollars. What I am pointing out is the BS that BlackBerry and Chen are spouting as a reason why no new BB10 phones. Chen planned from the beginning to dump BB10 devices, so this is just a made up excuse.

[okanagan]

BlackBerry does not have to release a BB10 Priv, they just have to release the source code later eventually, and someone or a group of people will modify and have it run for most of the hardware out there including the Priv.

Posted via CB10

[Bluenoser63]

Yeah, I've seen your posts - Now you're just a disgruntled former developer spreading negativity all over the place.
BTW: Why are you still here if you have no interest in any relationship with Blackberry any longer?

I still love my BB10 Z30 device and will continue to use it. Are you saying that as a current BlackBerry 10 device user and BES12 administrator that I shouldn't come here and give my perspective, or would you like to keep your head in the sand and pretend that everything is great with BlackBerry. Isn't that what got Blackberry where they got today? By ignoring reality and not listening to the users?

[Bluenoser63]

BlackBerry does not have to release a BB10 Priv, they just have to release the source code later eventually, and someone or a group of people will modify and have it run for most of the hardware out there including the Priv.

Posted via CB10

They won't be able to do that without putting their patents in jeopardy. Don't hold your breath.

[cbvinh]

But....the investment in designing and building the hardware has already been done, and as Android and QNX have distinct similarities, I can't see why it wouldn't be possible to create a QNX/BB10 build for the Priv.

I mean, if a Windows/Intel machine can run Linux (or, for that matter, a Mac can run Windows) aside from any hardware differences between the Priv and the other BB10 phones, most of which is driver-related and may well interface with the underlying QNX microkernel, anyway, all we're talking about is having a choice between OSs.

The question isn't whether it's feasible to have the PRIV run BB10. The question is whether it would make economic sense for BlackBerry to invest in drivers. Let's say BlackBerry spends the money and PRIV gets BB10. Would that be enough? Would people be fine with the current state of BB10 running on the PRIV, or would they want more updates/upgrades to the OS? How many years of support would they want? What if the Android Runtime needs to be removed? Would everyone one of those people clamoring for a BB10 PRIV upgrade? Or are we talking about a small subset that could care less about apps?

[buwee]

I still love my BB10 Z30 device and will continue to use it. Are you saying that as a current BlackBerry 10 device user and BES12 administrator that I shouldn't come here and give my perspective, or would you like to keep your head in the sand and pretend that everything is great with BlackBerry. Isn't that what got Blackberry where they got today? By ignoring reality and not listening to the users?

No, I'm not saying that at all - the fact is I am also still a BB10 user and a Priv user as well as and I also administer a couple of BES's but the big difference is I am not here to spread negativity as you seem to be doing. Maybe you're taking this too personally but I've learned from experience big companies don't give a rat's a** about small people and this happens everyday in life. I fully realize not everything is rosy in Blackberry land but spreading negativity is going to solve the problem - it's not like they're going to say "oh, lets fixed this now because there's a few people in the forums complaining about us. My feeling is if I don't like what they're doing I'll just move on and let them wither but I wouldn't be coming back to this forum to complain about them. I use to be an iPhone & iPad user and was at the iMore forums and there were many things I didn't like about Apple so I just left and haven't been back to that forum since. I guess I could go back there and bash Apple but why? I have better things to do with life.

[cbvinh]

Do you actually have the price it would cost BlackBerry to create the drivers. If Open Source projects CAN create them for little money, why would it cost millions upon millions of dollars. What I am pointing out is the BS that BlackBerry and Chen are spouting as a reason why no new BB10 phones. Chen planned from the beginning to dump BB10 devices, so this is just a made up excuse.

It's a time vs money issue. Open source can work, but it'll take a lot of time because as you pointed out, it's just a bunch of people building with no help from the chip makers. Once you add support from the chip makers and a team of programmers to build it quick, then you're talking about spending a good chunk of money. You're speculating it won't cost millions upon millions. It only needs to cost more than what they'd get back in return. Further, I doubt anyone would be happy with just porting over BB10. All the apps would need to be upgraded to work with it, just as a start.

[Bluenoser63]

It's a time vs money issue. Open source can work, but it'll take a lot of time because as you pointed out, it's just a bunch of people building with no help from the chip makers. Once you add support from the chip makers and a team of programmers to build it quick, then you're talking about spending a good chunk of money. You're speculating it won't cost millions upon millions. It only needs to cost more than what they'd get back in return. Further, I doubt anyone would be happy with just porting over BB10. All the apps would need to be upgraded to work with it, just as a start.

Do you do application development? All the apps wouldn't needed to be upgraded. Actually none of them would if all you do is changing the device drivers. All the drivers do is a layer between the application and the hardware. You don't need to change the application software. That is what the drivers are for.

[Kryngle]

What if governments and business people want BB10 on the Priv. Will or would BlackBerry and Chen listen?


Posted via CB10

[Bluenoser63]

What if governments and business people want BB10 on the Priv. Will or would BlackBerry and Chen listen?
Posted via CB10

No. It is my feeling from the people that I have talked to at BlackBerry, both in the enterprise and developer sections, that BlackBerry knows better than Enterprises what they want. They don't want to hear from customers on what they want.

[cbvinh]

Do you do application development? All the apps wouldn't needed to be upgraded. Actually none of them would if all you do is changing the device drivers. All the drivers do is a layer between the application and the hardware. You don't need to change the application software. That is what the drivers are for.

I haven't done mobile app development, but I've written drivers for graphics cards, while debugging them. I've also worked on drivers for a film recorder. All of it was done in assembly, hand coded for speed.

From what I've read about BB10 app development, developers have to be conscious about device resolutions, just for the interface, to optimize for it, which is why we have apps that are targeted to Z10, Z30, Z3, Leap and not so much Q5, Q10, Passport. Optimizing for the resolution would either require an update to the BB10 API and/or updating the app for the greater resolution. That's just one aspect. The features of the new camera need to be exposed too, which again necessitates an API/app update.

[Bluenoser63]

I haven't done mobile app development, but I've written drivers for graphics cards, while debugging them. I've also worked on drivers for a film recorder. All of it was done in assembly, hand coded for speed.

From what I've read about BB10 app development, developers have to be conscious about device resolutions, just for the interface, to optimize for it, which is why we have apps that are targeted to Z10, Z30, Z3, Leap and not so much Q5, Q10, Passport. Optimizing for the resolution would either require an update to the BB10 API and/or updating the app for the greater resolution. That's just one aspect. The features of the new camera need to be exposed too, which again necessitates an API/app update.

Developers have to target the difference device resolutions. But a single app can be developed across all platforms with little changes. They developed two systems that are already in place that don't require new APIs.

Resolution independence - BlackBerry Native

Static asset selection - BlackBerry Native

So apps don't need to be rewritten.

[conite]

What if governments and business people want BB10 on the Priv. Will or would BlackBerry and Chen listen?


Posted via CB10

If they were willing to pay $3000 per device, maybe. But they're not. So, no.

PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2789

[RyanGermann]

As far as BB10 is concerned. Any new models will likely not have any Android apps. Few would buy a phone that has virtually no ecosystem. Not even Enterprise.

BlackBerry put out the Classic and Passport and too few purchased them. Troy says that they lost $100 per device sold. Personally, I would have sold the Vienna instead of the Classic and a Slider and a great all touch using BB10 and run time but it is too late. They put all of their efforts into devices that the market did not like. So that is why there should be no BB10 on the PRIV.

They would likely lose $100 for every one sold.

If they port BB10 to the Priv, and charge for the software (they could require that you order BB10 for the Priv from your device, so it would use the PIN to encrypt the data in the autoloader, only decryptable on the device with the device PIN).

The Priv customer would buy the Priv at regular market price running Android. There goes the "They'd lose $100 on every device sold" argument. It's not a legitimate point to assert that BlackBerry 10 devices can not be sold at a profit in a world where BlackBerry is selling Android devices at a profit.

So, user buys Priv, pays, what, $50 to get BB10 for their Priv. Downloaded autoloader, installed on BB10.

How many people have to buy BB10 at $50 to make it worth BlackBerry's while to port BB10 to the Priv?

Only BlackBerry can say. But all of us can do simple math: if One Million BB10 enthusiasts are willing to pay $50 for BB10 on the Priv, or any other BlackBerry brand Android device built on the same SoC for that matter, then BlackBerry gets $50 million.

There is nothing on earth that will make me believe that a) it would cost BlackBerry FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS to port BB10 as it is, 10.3.1, to the Priv. I do believe that BlackBerry SHOULD do this in deference to loyal BB10 customers EVEN IF IT'S NOT HUGELY PROFITABLE, YES, EVEN IF THEY LOSE $10 MILLION ON IT... THEY. OWE. US.

Sure they don't see it that way, but BB10 customers have spent HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, POSSIBLY ALMOST A BILLION DOLLARS buying BB10 devices. They DO "owe" us something.

I'm not asking them to flush $100s of millions down the toilet. I'm asking them to take up the task of porting BB10 as a "favour" to fans, and just breaking even on it. Heck, they might even make a profit on it, I'm not begrudging them that, but I don't respect BlackBerry for penny-pinching to the point of kicking loyal BB10 enthusiasts in the collective crotch and turning to Android.

They just abandoned BB10 users. Porting BB10 to the Priv would be a very inexpensive way to bring BB10 users to the next generation of hardware, even it's just a "goodbye gift" or "farewell gesture". Then they can close the book on BB10 saying "we tried to do right by our BB10 customers."

They can't say that at this point.

[cbvinh]

Developers have to target the difference device resolutions. But a single app can be developed across all platforms with little changes. They developed two systems that are already in place that don't require new APIs.

Resolution independence - BlackBerry Native

Static asset selection - BlackBerry Native

So apps don't need to be rewritten.

I believe I wrote "updated" several times, not "rewritten". I'm aware of the idea of scalable app resolutions, but in practice, no one wants a 1280 x 720 app just blown up to 2560 x 1440, i.e. doubled in each dimension. If more information can be displayed, then the user wants to take full advantage of it. Again, we have apps targeted at different BB10 aspect ratios. We have different number of apps displayed on the Z10 vs a Passport, etc.

I have no idea what the differences are from the 801 to 808, but if there are new CPU features, those need to be added somehow, either at the compiler stage, API level or direct access. Users won't want to have an 808 but utilizing only 801 functions.

[conite]

I do believe that BlackBerry SHOULD do this in deference to loyal BB10 customers EVEN IF IT'S NOT HUGELY PROFITABLE, YES, EVEN IF THEY LOSE $10 MILLION ON IT... THEY. OWE. US.

Hi Ryan. I do appreciate your opinion on this matter, and we've had the discussion before as to how much a modern OS costs to update and maintain, so I don't think I need to rehash my opinion again.

BUT, your quote from above is, with all due respect, what I can't get my head around.

I have enjoyed BB10 devices for close to 3 years. I have wrung every ounce out of them, and find they don't owe me a thing. I got what I paid for. It's too bad that further development has reached the end of the road, but I fail to see what BlackBerry OWES me. The devices STILL work as designed and will continue to receive security patches and technical support. Heck, I bought this Passport SE just a couple of months back even though I was convinced where things were headed.

Just my two cents.

PassportSQW100-4/10.3.2.2789

[Lucas D]

Sadly it won't happen.

Posted via CB10