10-23-15 04:03 AM
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  1. RyanGermann's Avatar
    The idea of crowd-funding BB10 to keep it going is an interesting one, but I think it would be a massive embarrassment to BlackBerry to get involved in anything like that. It would be perceived as roughly on the same level as holding a bake sale.
    And that's bad, I guess. Not sure why.

    Better to betray loyal customers than have a bake sale. Not the way I'd run a business, but if BlackBerry management thinks that's going to pay off in the long run, just throw it on the pile of bad business decisions.
    10-20-15 12:56 PM
  2. ubizmo's Avatar
    And that's bad, I guess. Not sure why.
    You're not sure why?

    It's because a move like that will cause even more damage to an already battered brand. It will cause share prices to drop even further, by sending the clear signal that BlackBerry has to rely on charity to support BB10.

    Kickstarter and similar crowdfunding services are meant to provide a way for new or small businesses to raise capital for new projects. They are not meant for existing multi-billion dollar publicly traded companies to try to prop up failed projects.

    Why is there a stock market? It's not just to enable a few traders to get rich. It's to provide a way for businesses to raise capital for projects, by letting others invest in the company. BlackBerry, in its history, as raised an immense amount of money this way -- more than any conceivable crowdfunding initiative could hope to raise. And they have burned through all that money, leaving them where they are now, with the company valued at the equivalent of its cash assets. A lot of people have been burned along the way. Thousands have lost their jobs. Shareholders have lost huge amounts of money. The last seven or so years have been a nightmare for a lot of people connected to BlackBerry.

    At least the BB10 users like ourselves have had our BB10 phones, and still have them. They'll work for some time, after which we can all decide what to do next.

    When Heins was looking for buyers for BlackBerry, it didn't have a good effect on anything: stock price, morale, or BlackBerry's future plans, such as they were. Do you honestly think that a crowdfunding initiative by disgruntled BB10 enthusiasts would do anything other than to make BlackBerry appear more pathetic than they already do -- and that's not easy.

    Better to betray loyal customers than have a bake sale.
    We haven't been betrayed (well, except for the PlayBook BB10 promise). They offered products for sale and we bought them. We got what we paid for and used it, and are still using it (many of us). They didn't sell us a promise of BB10 in perpetuity. There just weren't enough of us to make it work.

    And I'm pretty sure there won't be enough of us going to the bake sale to make that work either.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-20-15 01:24 PM
  3. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Yeah I am frustrated by the attitudes of many on CrackBerry, so don't take this personally.

    You're not sure why?

    It's because a move like that will cause even more damage to an already battered brand. It will cause share prices to drop even further, by sending the clear signal that BlackBerry has to rely on charity to support BB10.
    First of all, calling a crowdfunding campaign "charity" is disingenuous. It's not charity. You know how they work.

    And as far as the market reaction is concerned, that's conjecture: the response is just as likely to be "Look, BlackBerry, battered and beleagured, is STILL trying to do whatever they can to support their loyal customers. Isn't that nice to see in this cynical day and age."

    I think my totally wild guess of how the market will react to BlackBerry doing a kickstarter campaign is just as legitimate as a negative one.

    Kickstarter and similar crowdfunding services are meant to provide a way for new or small businesses to raise capital for new projects. They are not meant for existing multi-billion dollar publicly traded companies to try to prop up failed projects.
    Why? Who says? There are no rules in a world where BlackBerry thinks creatively and wants to do its best for its customers.

    And think about this: if the Android Slider is supposed to sell more devices than all ACTIVE BlackBerry 10 devices combined, by definition, BlackBerry is working very hard to please people who AREN'T YET their customers, while their ACTUAL customers are marginalized, pushed aside for the "more interesting" person in their line of sight. Why AREN'T you offended?

    Why is there a stock market? It's not just to enable a few traders to get rich. It's to provide a way for businesses to raise capital for projects, by letting others invest in the company. BlackBerry, in its history, as raised an immense amount of money this way -- more than any conceivable crowdfunding initiative could hope to raise.
    Well, BlackBerry did issue stock, then that stock went up in price, but BlackBerry only made whatever money from the initial stock issue... not from all the stock that traded hands over the years. But that's not really relevant, anyway...

    And they have burned through all that money, leaving them where they are now, with the company valued at the equivalent of its cash assets.
    Oh, they burned through all that and MORE: all the hardware revenue BIS revenue and software license revenue and maintenance fee revenue and core patent licensing revenue and so on. So it's even WORSE than you describe. The fact that the company is barely worth it's assets should tell BB management, you, EVERYONE, that "doing what they've been doing for 8 years" isn't the way to improve their prospects... it's the way to drive them further downward (and no, "adopting Android" but running all other aspects of the business with the same outmoded business philosophy isn't enough of a change. Apple and Google certainly don't run their business the way BlackBerry does, and it's not just about how much money they have, it's how they treat their customers and employees that current BlackBerry management can't grasp.)

    A lot of people have been burned along the way. Thousands have lost their jobs. Shareholders have lost huge amounts of money. The last seven or so years have been a nightmare for a lot of people connected to BlackBerry. At least the BB10 users like ourselves have had our BB10 phones, and still have them. They'll work for some time, after which we can all decide what to do next.
    ...and we've been here, through thick and thin. We deserve better than "we don't give a damn about you.", because that's what BlackBerry's attitude to BB10 enthusiasts is, without a stronger stated committment to BB10 than "we have to do some updates because various government agencies have increased their security standards.". It's pathetic.

    Sure: I guess it depends how you define "betrayal", but when someone invests in a smartphone platform, they do assume some future, growth, new features, etc.... and when a company has been hanging on by its fingernails, whatever revenue it DID have was FROM US: LOYAL FANS.

    Should BlackBerry management be grateful to their loyal customers? YES, damn right they should be! Should BlackBerry management demonstrate their gratitude with actions rather than empty words? Yes, damn right they should.

    "Empty words" are "Making a go of BlackBerry 10 is Hhhhhaaaaaarrrrd."

    Doing right by loyal customers is "we're going to do whatever we can. We need $20 million to port BB10 over to the slider. If BlackBerry enthusiasts really want BB10 on the Slider, we'll do it, but we have to raise the money first, we can't do it unless we're sure there is a market for it. Contribute $10, $20, or $50 per person, we need to get to $20 million. If you contribute $50, you get an engraved backplate."

    See, that would not be hard at ALL. Why do people think it would be hard?

    When the rest of the world was saying "BlackBerry is dead" we were advocates for the excellent technology and challenging statements about BlackBerry's imminent bankruptcy etc.

    Everyone's so willing to give them a complete pass on this, it's baffling to me.

    This is why it's harmful to the BlackBerry brand and their future prospects to NOT to go out on a limb (and I don't mean financially, just try the kickstarter thing for example) as a "thank you" to those of US who kept them from COMPLETE collapse over the past few years by buying VERY EXPENSIVE devices and putting our faith in BlackBerry to "do right by us", and (in retrospect) foolishly acting as advocates for the company and technology with friends, family, peers. If you didn't good for you, but those of us who did, well, I think "betrayal" sums it up pretty well.

    I get what you're saying. BlackBerry didn't explicitly promise us something and then renege. If someone has an extra-marital affair and they tell their spouse "we never discussed it. I never SAID I wouldn't have an extra-marital affair" I don't expect the response to be "you're right. We never DID actually say 'I will never have an extra-marital affair', so I guess I shouldn't be upset. Sorry."

    With devices and device revenue still making up a SUBSTANTIAL part of BlackBerry business, some kind of effort and, yes, HUMILITY on their part towards loyal customers is fitting, and actually NOT doing it sends a very clear and business-averse message: If you invest in BlackBerry products, be prepared for them to be EOL'd long before you're expecting. THAT'S not a good attribute for BlackBerry Ltd. to have, in my opinion. Obviously, not many share that opinion.

    I was and am still livid at Thor and his team re: the PlayBook... not that full BB10 wasn't ported, but that they didn't even throw PlayBook users a bone, by investing in browser improvements or whatnot, and making sure that BB10 could "pair" with a PlayBook as well or better than BBOS did.

    Did you thought BlackBerry under John Chen was going to be different, or the same? If I thought it was going to be the same, I'd still be where I am now: angry with BlackBerry management, with an excellent Z30 that, despite how good it is, it will never improve further. I admit I've been waiting 2 years for the Slider, but not running Android, running BB10. Oh, what kind of fool... am Iiiiii...

    When Heins was looking for buyers for BlackBerry, it didn't have a good effect on anything: stock price, morale, or BlackBerry's future plans, such as they were. Do you honestly think that a crowdfunding initiative by disgruntled BB10 enthusiasts would do anything other than to make BlackBerry appear more pathetic than they already do -- and that's not easy.
    Not by disgruntled enthusiasts: BY BLACKBERRY TO RE-GRUNTLE THEIR ENTHUSIASTS. Pay attention!

    For pete's sake, GM was actually KILLING PEOPLE with their apathy and sure, they've lost some favour, but people are still buying GM vehicles, what is this imaginary world you live in where if BlackBerry does a kickstarter campaign, it will drive business away. At this point, it can only IMPROVE it i.e. "BlackBerry bends over backwards for their loyal customers, that's a company I want to do business with." Jeez it's amateur psychology hour all over the place, but go ahead, have an opinion, but stating facts without taking it a step or two further i.e. what will be the result in the MARKET of whatever attitude you are ascribing to "the market"? The chain of reasoning doesn't stop with an opinion. Carry it through to a conclusion.

    "Gee, BlackBerry running a kickstarter campaign makes BlackBerry look desperate."

    IT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT BLACKBERRY IS DESPERATE, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, INVESTORS, COMPETITORS, CUSTOMERS. But being desperate AND treating your customers with excellence is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Being desperate TO SATISFY YOUR CUSTOMERS is ALWAYS considered a positive attribute. Go rewatch "It's A Wonderful Life" if you need another example (Bailey Building and Loan).

    We haven't been betrayed (well, except for the PlayBook BB10 promise). They offered products for sale and we bought them. We got what we paid for and used it, and are still using it (many of us). They didn't sell us a promise of BB10 in perpetuity. There just weren't enough of us to make it work.
    Anyone who bought a Passport and expected a bit more than .1 OS updates was betrayed. In fact, the rumours about BB10's death moreso than BlackBerry Ltd's business prospects probably have and will CONTINUE to have a negative impact on BB10 device sales, because everyone knows BB10 is dead: but BlackBerry could prove us wrong by actually TRYING SOMETHING rather than TRYING NOTHING.

    And I'm pretty sure there won't be enough of us going to the bake sale to make that work either.
    We'll never know.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 10-20-15 at 04:08 PM.
    acovey likes this.
    10-20-15 03:34 PM
  4. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Why bother putting in any OS10 features into the Priv then if they are only courting other users? Perhaps to attract and appease loyal BlackBerry users and give them some features they really like? Otherwise, a non-BB user could care less about the Hub, Protect, etc. because they have never even used it on the first place. So let's not pretend they have completely ignored loyal users.

    Posted via CB10
    acovey likes this.
    10-20-15 04:49 PM
  5. europolska00's Avatar
    Why bother putting in any OS10 features into the Priv then if they are only courting other users? Perhaps to attract and appease loyal BlackBerry users and give them some features they really like? Otherwise, a non-BB user could care less about the Hub, Protect, etc. because they have never even used it on the first place. So let's not pretend they have completely ignored loyal users.

    Posted via CB10
    Well said.

    Posted via CB10
    acovey likes this.
    10-20-15 06:36 PM
  6. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Why bother putting in any OS10 features into the Priv then if they are only courting other users? Perhaps to attract and appease loyal BlackBerry users and give them some features they really like? Otherwise, a non-BB user could care less about the Hub, Protect, etc. because they have never even used it on the first place. So let's not pretend they have completely ignored loyal users.
    Those features are highly regarded competitive advantages that originated in BB10 so of course BlackBerry wants to sell those features as the "productivity suite", but are bundled with the BlackBerry Android platform... but we don't know if they have possibly been corrupted on the way to being transformed to the Material Design UX paradigm, or worse, is some kind of "transporter accident" abomination worse than Tuvix. We'll have to wait and see, but if you keep your expectations low, you won't be disappointed.

    EDIT: here's a CEO that gets it.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/video/sales...010803729.html
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 10-20-15 at 08:32 PM.
    10-20-15 07:48 PM
  7. ubizmo's Avatar
    And think about this: if the Android Slider is supposed to sell more devices than all ACTIVE BlackBerry 10 devices combined, by definition, BlackBerry is working very hard to please people who AREN'T YET their customers, while their ACTUAL customers are marginalized, pushed aside for the "more interesting" person in their line of sight. Why AREN'T you offended?
    Good question. The answer is: Because the number of actual customers is small and dwindling, and that's just not a viable position to be in. Some of the NOT YET customers are people who used to be BlackBerry customers. I'm pretty sure there are more of them than there are current BB10 users. Others are people who have never owned a BlackBerry, but may be interested in what the Priv brings to the table. I just can't be offended at the decision to aim their very limited resources at those two groups.

    Sure: I guess it depends how you define "betrayal", but when someone invests in a smartphone platform, they do assume some future, growth, new features, etc.... and when a company has been hanging on by its fingernails, whatever revenue it DID have was FROM US: LOYAL FANS.
    Not entirely. A chunk of that revenue was from people who tried BB10 and then moved on because it didn't work for them.

    But here's the other thing: BlackBerry really did deliver what was, in my opinion, an impressive series of upgrades to the BB10 platform. The difference in quality from 10.0 to 10.3.2 in such a short time is really substantial. I don't know if anyone else has accomplished so much with so little in such a short time.

    We'll never know.
    Instead of a crowdfunding initiative, consider a pledge campaign. All who sign on promise to buy a BB10 Priv within, for the same price, within a month of release. Do you think you could get a few million people to sign on? That might get BlackBerry's attention.
    10-21-15 11:36 AM
  8. crackbb10's Avatar
    Instead of a crowdfunding initiative, consider a pledge campaign. All who sign on promise to buy a BB10 Priv within, for the same price, within a month of release. Do you think you could get a few million people to sign on? That might get BlackBerry's attention.
    I was just about to say this. The money could be wired to a third party lawyer's account. When sufficient funds are reached, money can be wired to BlackBerry. If not reached within a certain agreed upon timeframe, all money is wired back to participants minus fee for the lawyer (a few bucks per participant).
    10-21-15 01:35 PM
  9. crackbb10's Avatar
    I must say however that the Priv's growing on me as it is. I have the Passport for the full BlackBerry 10 experience and the Z30. I don't know whether I would participate in this venture. We're getting a BlackBerry with the one thing that almost everyone wants and we aren't going to get it on BlackBerry 10.
    10-21-15 01:35 PM
  10. Emaderton3's Avatar
    I was just about to say this. The money could be wired to a third party lawyer's account. When sufficient funds are reached, money can be wired to BlackBerry. If not reached within a certain agreed upon timeframe, all money is wired back to participants minus fee for the lawyer (a few bucks per participant).
    I think BlackBerry would say thanks but no thanks. It's not just about making them but the expenses of also supporting them and dedicating time/staff to them.

    Posted via CB10
    10-21-15 01:45 PM
  11. Mr4aces's Avatar
    You guys are getting all worked up prematurely. Let it rest. The phone has not been in the publics hands to be judged.

    There are few companies that would have survived 2 years from the mess this company was in.

    BlackBerry has not said the BB10 is going to be abandoned. Besides look at all the BB7 users still hanging on.

    Earth will not stop spinning if BlackBerry's Priv fails.

    Someone kill this negative thread


    PIN 2COF829A
    acovey and MO3iusONE like this.
    10-21-15 02:33 PM
  12. KenV54's Avatar
    You guys are getting all worked up prematurely. Let it rest. The phone has not been in the publics hands to be judged.

    There are few companies that would have survived 2 years from the mess this company was in.

    BlackBerry has not said the BB10 is going to be abandoned. Besides look at all the BB7 users still hanging on.

    Earth will not stop spinning if BlackBerry's Priv fails.

    Someone kill this negative thread


    PIN 2COF829A
    Apple survived in the mid 90s, but only because Steve Jobs came back. Does BlackBerry have a Jobs waiting in the wings?

    Posted via CB10
    Mr4aces likes this.
    10-21-15 04:06 PM
  13. Mr4aces's Avatar
    Apple survived in the mid 90s, but only because Steve Jobs came back. Does BlackBerry have a Jobs waiting in the wings?

    Posted via CB10
    NOBODY can replace Jobs, but JC has a staff of those less than 1/10th of a percent.

    Let's see what happens. By March we will know if BlackBerry will be in the device business.

    PIN 2COF829A
    10-21-15 04:30 PM
  14. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Instead of a crowdfunding initiative, consider a pledge campaign. All who sign on promise to buy a BB10 Priv within, for the same price, within a month of release. Do you think you could get a few million people to sign on? That might get BlackBerry's attention.
    My complaints aren't about BB10: it is excellent and the dev team were miracle workers.

    Everything BlackBerry did Re: BB10 was self serving. Whatever the benefit to BB10 enthusiasts, what they did was to give BB10 that one more chance (supported by a lot of free publicity conducted on the part of BB10 enthusiasts), not as some 'favour'.

    Now when a really exciting device with a powerful SoC and high resolution 16:9 screen is FINALLY released... THAT'S when BB10 is deemed 'no longer viable'.

    So, now, I'm saying they owe us a favour. Not a costly one, but they have to unclench enough to participate in alternative funding approaches.

    A Kickstarter campaign IS exactly that: If the target is reached, buyers pledge to buy what the sponsor is producing: If, as many speculate, there aren't enough people interested, then the target is not reached, funds are not allocated, pledges take their money and go home, end of story. BlackBerry has another data point to support their decision to EOL BB10.

    I admit that it will take some publicity and getting the V
    BB10 user base fired up... nothing some BBM ads couldn't achieve.

    BlackBerry Ltd. has to state a willingness to fulfill if the target is reached, and they have to set the target. Without those things, it can't happen.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 10-21-15 at 04:56 PM.
    10-21-15 04:42 PM
  15. acovey's Avatar
    Kickstarter is crowd funding.

    It's not BlackBerry 's job to keep making, and losing money, on phones for a market that doesn't want them. They have only lost lots of money on BlackBerry 10 devices and they've made probably more of those devices than they should have. They've given it many tries. There is a point where you have to throw in the towel. They are at 0.3% market share and dropping.

    But sure, they'll make another BlackBerry 10 phone, you know, to make you happy. The business can go under so long as you're happy.

    Facts:
    BlackBerry 10 unprofitable on all eight devices made.
    BlackBerry 10 on Priv hardware too expensive to make drivers; the company will not see a return on that expenditure.
    BlackBerry 10 market share is now at 0.3% and dropping.
    Android Market is over 80% now.

    Your argument:
    "I WANT IT! BlackBerry owes me and will change its mind if we cry and get them to ignore the numbers!"

    You can have an opinion, but if you ignore the numbers, your opinion isn't just cute, it's wrong.

    Posted via CB10
    Well I guess with your expert advice I should just line up behind the other Droids. Sorry I think NOT. I am a Blackberry user and a free person who is entitled to say what I want from Blackberry. So feel free to share why your a Android believer and I will continue to say I WANT A SLIDER WITH BB10. And I never said BB owed me anything I'm just a customer who said what he likes and what he doesn't like.
    10-21-15 11:52 PM
  16. ubizmo's Avatar
    Everything BlackBerry did Re: BB10 was self serving. Whatever the benefit to BB10 enthusiasts, what they did was to give BB10 that one more chance (supported by a lot of free publicity conducted on the part of BB10 enthusiasts), not as some 'favour'.
    Of course. That's the way a for-profit business works. You offer something to people who will appreciate it, not as a favor but as a way to be profitable.

    Now when a really exciting device with a powerful SoC and high resolution 16:9 screen is FINALLY released... THAT'S when BB10 is deemed 'no longer viable'.
    No, I don't think so. The Priv is being released as an Android device because Chen (and many others) have already realized that BB10 is not commercially viable. If they thought it were viable, the Priv would be a BB10 phone, because with BB10 already mature it would have cost them less to release it than it must have cost them to get the Android version ready (assuming it is ready). The fact that Android is "free" doesn't change that.

    The Priv is an Android phone because Chen has no reason to think they could sell enough BB10 Privs to make any money.

    So, now, I'm saying they owe us a favour. Not a costly one, but they have to unclench enough to participate in alternative funding approaches.
    They owe us nothing. We bought the BlackBerry products we wanted, and we're either still using them or we've moved on. On the whole, most have moved on. Some who were BBOS users didn't care for the look of BB10 and moved on at that time; others tried BB10 and moved on. Those of us still using BB10 are doing so because we still like what it offers, but our numbers are dwindling. That is simply beyond dispute.

    In putting BB10 on the market, BlackBerry did not enter into some sort of implied covenant to support it beyond the point of profitability.

    A Kickstarter campaign IS exactly that: If the target is reached, buyers pledge to buy what the sponsor is producing: If, as many speculate, there aren't enough people interested, then the target is not reached, funds are not allocated, pledges take their money and go home, end of story. BlackBerry has another data point to support their decision to EOL BB10.
    No, it's worse than that. In the process, BlackBerry damages its brand beyond its already sorry state, by begging for buyers and failing to get them. Granted, you and I have different ideas about how this move would affect the public perception of BlackBerry. I can't prove my version, but it's what makes sense to me.

    BlackBerry doesn't any more data points to support their decision to mothball BB10. Every customer who has moved from BBOS or BB10 to some other platform is a data point; the graph is so dense you can't see the dots anymore.

    My point was, if you, or some cabal of BB10 users, want to start a pledge campaign, go for it. If successful, you'd be able to show that BlackBerry was wrong about BB10; that there really are millions of people willing to buy that BB10 Priv. If successful, you might get Chen's attention. If unsuccessful, at least it wouldn't be another black eye to the BlackBerry brand. The whole thing would be dismissed as the last rally of a proud but naive cohort of customers.

    I admit that it will take some publicity and getting the V
    BB10 user base fired up... nothing some BBM ads couldn't achieve.

    BlackBerry Ltd. has to state a willingness to fulfill if the target is reached, and they have to set the target. Without those things, it can't happen.
    Yes it can. You can start your own BBM channel and just do it. Never mind the holding the money in escrow part. Just put the message out: "Subscribe to this channel if you would buy a BB10 Priv!" Then use the channel to make announcements as subscriber milestones are reached, and simultaneously announce these on Twitter, with hashtags #BlackBerry and #BB10Priv. If you can actually succeed in getting millions of subscribers, even though no one has ponied up any money, you will have created a narrative. You will have asked a question that, at some point, BlackBerry has to answer: If there are millions of people interested in buying this thing, why aren't you building it?

    The current narrative, which I believe is true, is that those millions of people just aren't there. That's clearly what Chen believes as well. You're convinced he's wrong, so go find them.
    MO3iusONE likes this.
    10-22-15 07:52 AM
  17. 1Criz's Avatar
    Everyone of you forgot "brilliant Web browser"

    Posted via CB10
    10-22-15 07:57 AM
  18. RyanGermann's Avatar
    No, it's worse than that. In the process, BlackBerry damages its brand beyond its already sorry state, by begging for buyers and failing to get them. Granted, you and I have different ideas about how this move would affect the public perception of BlackBerry. I can't prove my version, but it's what makes sense to me.
    If we disagree on this fundamental premise (the affect of alternative funding approaches for BB10 on BlackBerry Ltd.) then further discussion is redundant. In my world, BlackBerry's reputation is already so terrible on all fronts that putting themselves out on a limb to serve loyal enthusiasts helps, not hurts, their reputation.
    10-22-15 08:34 AM
  19. anon(870071)'s Avatar
    My major concern MS Outlook sync calendar contacts notes tasks. Nowhere has this been discussed yet!?

    Bblink perhaps updated or an entirely new bblink,blend android version. The biggest deal breaker for me android devices don't play well ever with MS Outlook sync and has always been a hair ripping stressout!

     вιaсĸвεггч Passport SQW100-1 / 10.3.2.2639 Rogers Wireless Posted via CB 
    10-23-15 04:03 AM
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