09-30-15 10:21 AM
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  1. Tre Lawrence's Avatar

    Android/Google play is highly unlikely to save Blackberry.
    I'm not sure you're wrong, but it (Android) probably has a better chance than BB10.
    09-25-15 08:46 PM
  2. KAM1138's Avatar
    I'm not sure you're wrong, but it (Android) probably has a better chance than BB10.
    Well, we'll never know that answer, only whether Android DOES lead to a recovery. It is now pretty clear that they are not and have not been pursuing BB10, so its not even a possibility.

    KAM
    09-25-15 09:57 PM
  3. southlander's Avatar
    Why do you say only Google play is all that matters? Matters to who? Does it matter to the iOS users?
    I am not even including iOS in any of this since BlackBerry can't use iOS. Of course iOS users don't feel like they need Google Play. I thought that didn't need saying.

    I also agree with what someone else on here said. Chen appears to be outsourcing everything to save costs. They are letting FoxConn make phones. Now with outsourcing the OS they don't have to have as many software devs. Imagine how much easier it is to not have to build core OS features out to keep pace with iOS and Android.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    09-25-15 10:28 PM
  4. KAM1138's Avatar
    I am not even including iOS in any of this since BlackBerry can't use iOS. Of course iOS users don't feel like they need Google Play. I thought that didn't need saying.

    I also agree with what someone else on here said. Chen appears to be outsourcing everything to save costs. They are letting FoxConn make phones. Now with outsourcing the OS they don't have to have as many software devs. Imagine how much easier it is to not have to build core OS features out to keep pace with iOS and Android.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    In terms of iOS--I'm responding to your rather sweeping statements about google play being all that matters, and I think it is important, because you seemed to be using it as part of your reasoning to think that going with Android is the only possibility. I'm pointing out that the consumer market is not married to one solution, so it is POSSIBLE (although difficult at this point) they could (or could have) be brought to consider a third choice (of Ecosystem). Water under the bridge now I guess.

    Yes, Chen is outsourcing everything--everything that makes something an actual Blackberry product--hardware and software. Like I said--he's got a very narrow vision.

    You're totally right--it is EASIER to not have to produce things, but then the question is--what IS Blackberry at that point other than a damaged brand name.

    Lastly, I think if the goal is to "keep pace" when you're miles behind is a guaranteed losing strategy. Apple didn't knock BlackBerry off its former throne by meekly following and begging for a moderate increase in a tiny customer base. They went out and successfully changed the entire landscape reshaping it to suit them. They thought big and acted big, and succeeded big.

    Blackberry is thinking small, acting small, and therefore are likely to remain small--and that's assuming they SUCCEED in their small plans.

    The whole thing is a bit depressing.

    KAM
    lift and MikeX74 like this.
    09-26-15 12:47 AM
  5. southlander's Avatar
    Blackberry is thinking small, acting small, and therefore are likely to remain small--and that's assuming they SUCCEED in their small plans.
    BlackBerry ain't Apple. Google ain't Apple either, which is why they copied the iPhone (iOS) with Android and opted for the Windows-esque OEM/OS licensing model to rely on others to build the great hardware.

    BlackBerry does not have the capability to invent "the next great thing" from what we can see. Though early on they were certainly a clever company and were quite innovative in their business maneuvers.
    09-26-15 12:58 AM
  6. KAM1138's Avatar
    BlackBerry ain't Apple. Google ain't Apple either, which is why they copied the iPhone (iOS) with Android and opted for the Windows-esque OEM/OS licensing model to rely on others to build the great hardware.

    BlackBerry does not have the capability to invent "the next great thing" from what we can see. Though early on they were certainly a clever company and were quite innovative in their business maneuvers.
    Yes, on this we certainly agree.

    KAM
    09-26-15 02:01 AM
  7. I will be back's Avatar
    Android OEM making high-quality hardware with high-quality physical keyboards sporting innovative touch layers/tricks.
    Do you think, they will sell couple of thousands of those phones a months?
    I'm kind of skeptical about it.
    09-27-15 06:11 PM
  8. southlander's Avatar
    Sigh. Very few people outside of CrackBerry addicts care for a physical keyboard. Even as of this morning's news there are many comments on other websites to the effect of "2005 called and wants their keyboard back". Yeah, this will be a selling point to some--in particular perhaps to the 40 and over crowd who remember "2005", but for the average Android user, especially the younger ones, the pkb is going to be seen as joke no matter how much it can be kept tucked away. They'll simply wonder why it was included in the first place.
    Yes. It's called niche marketing. No one said it will appeal to everyone. And I, being older, have contrary experience. The podcasts I listen to and articles I read usually have comments that are positive regarding a real keyboard on a phone with an OS that's relevant. It's not just young people that use Android.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    09-27-15 09:50 PM
  9. southlander's Avatar
    I'm pointing out that the consumer market is not married to one solution, so it is POSSIBLE (although difficult at this point) they could (or could have) be brought to consider a third choice (of Ecosystem). Water under the bridge now I guess.
    I don't know. Seems curious to me that Microsoft has had the exact same issue with Windows Phone. And they have major resources, great developer tools. Etc.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    09-27-15 10:09 PM
  10. KAM1138's Avatar
    I don't know. Seems curious to me that Microsoft has had the exact same issue with Windows Phone. And they have major resources, great developer tools. Etc.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    Well, I don't know a whole lot about Windows Phone, or any of their issues. They don't seem to have the Brand issues that Blackberry does either, and most people they are aware they are in business. So, that is a good issue to consider.

    KAM
    09-27-15 11:48 PM
  11. evodevo69's Avatar
    Blackberry did exactly what?

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    They introduced minor changes with each generation and evidently it wasn't enough to keep their users from leaving.

    Reason being the experience of using the new "super phones" was so far beyond BlackBerry with their growing ecosystem (android and ios), that sticking with their legacy OS was suicide.

    Don't know how they missed the boat on that one, when the app store was announced in 2008 I think it was, don't know why BlackBerry took till 2013 to release a modern OS when Google already saw it coming from the beginning.



    #CB10 #workwide #Silver
    09-28-15 12:04 AM
  12. evodevo69's Avatar
    They introduced minor changes with each generation and evidently it wasn't enough to keep their users from leaving.

    Reason being the experience of using the new "super phones" was so far beyond BlackBerry with their growing ecosystem (android and ios), that sticking with their legacy OS was suicide.

    Don't know how they missed the boat on that one, when the app store was announced in 2008 I think it was, don't know why BlackBerry took till 2013 to release a modern OS when Google already saw it coming from the beginning.



    #CB10 #workwide #Silver
    Double post


    #CB10 #workwide #Silver
    09-28-15 12:04 AM
  13. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    They introduced minor changes with each generation and evidently it wasn't enough to keep their users from leaving.

    Reason being the experience of using the new "super phones" was so far beyond BlackBerry with their growing ecosystem (android and ios), that sticking with their legacy OS was suicide.

    Don't know how they missed the boat on that one, when the app store was announced in 2008 I think it was, don't know why BlackBerry took till 2013 to release a modern OS when Google already saw it coming from the beginning.



    #CB10 #workwide #Silver
    Yep...

    I wouldn't give Google too much credit. Google (IMHO) was lucky enough to be early enough to change direction, so I guess one can give Goog credit for adjusting.

    For folks like me who were on BlackBerry way back when, it is doubly ironic; I remember wondering how folks could use the original iPhone with so few applications. I recall an iPhone-using friend telling me to "just use the browser."

    LOL. Times change.

    But yes, IMHO, BBRY not reacting swiftly to the development of ecosystems cost it the war. Tough to accept for me, because in my estimation, it was once ahead.
    09-28-15 12:24 AM
  14. KAM1138's Avatar
    They introduced minor changes with each generation and evidently it wasn't enough to keep their users from leaving.

    Reason being the experience of using the new "super phones" was so far beyond BlackBerry with their growing ecosystem (android and ios), that sticking with their legacy OS was suicide.

    Don't know how they missed the boat on that one, when the app store was announced in 2008 I think it was, don't know why BlackBerry took till 2013 to release a modern OS when Google already saw it coming from the beginning.
    #CB10 #workwide #Silver
    The reason Blackberry's "feeding their sheep" strategy failed (prior to BB10)is because someone else offered an innovation that changed the course of things.
    Apple enjoying the "feed the sheep" position today isn't going to get knocked off that perch with anything Blackberry is doing--NOT innovating.
    There is not one single thing in the Priv that hasn't been offered before, or isn't offered by others right now. BB10 WAS different, offered marketable features, and COULD have been supported much better than it was (and is). They could have WISELY invested in efforts across the board, but they didn't choose to. They brought in someone who seemingly has little to no imagination, and whose only real goal seems to be in cutting costs (not that this is a bad goal). But NOT spending money on the right things isn't a good idea either.

    Following history's lesson, BlackBerry would have to alter the narrative with some sort of marketable innovation (and actually do the marketing) to have any hope of overcoming the inertia they face from iOS and other Android (Samsung really) competitors.

    KAM
    09-28-15 12:32 AM
  15. southlander's Avatar
    Well, I don't know a whole lot about Windows Phone, or any of their issues. They don't seem to have the Brand issues that Blackberry does either, and most people they are aware they are in business. So, that is a good issue to consider.

    KAM
    That's the thing. Some of things people claim BB should have done differently on BB10 are things Microsoft did do on Windows Phone, and it did not matter. Great dev tools (MS has always done great at that), and they advertised. And lots of people do know about Windows Phone.

    Yet, the carriers mostly ignored them. And the big apps players (especially Google), shunned WinPhone. So it has pretty much failed.

    And surprise surprise, Microsoft tinkered with the idea of running Android apps on Windows Phone. Seems like they also think Google Play access is pretty much table stakes for gaining any share in the smartphone market.
    ayngling likes this.
    09-28-15 02:50 PM
  16. KAM1138's Avatar
    That's the thing. Some of things people claim BB should have done differently on BB10 are things Microsoft did do on Windows Phone, and it did not matter. Great dev tools (MS has always done great at that), and they advertised. And lots of people do know about Windows Phone.

    Yet, the carriers mostly ignored them. And the big apps players (especially Google), shunned WinPhone. So it has pretty much failed.

    And surprise surprise, Microsoft tinkered with the idea of running Android apps on Windows Phone. Seems like they also think Google Play access is pretty much table stakes for gaining any share in the smartphone market.
    Well, I'll take your word on that (Seriously). But, somehow (according to a quick search) Windows Phone is somehow sitting at about 2.5% of the market (or a bit lower). That's about 8 times greater share than Blackberry currently has, AND Blackberry once had a much loftier position.
    So, while I won't discount the similarities, I would also say that they've ARE more successful than BlackBerry--perhaps due to those other efforts being better than BlackBerry.

    We've all been speculating and talking about the Android being MORE successful than BB10--as if that low bar would be great to pass...and from where we are, that's probably true. However, this is where these speculations and opinions will sort of play out isn't it?

    One side (that you seem to agree with) is that going to Google Play is the central issue--or at least the prerequisite. I'm of the opinion that Ecosystem is a factor for sure, but it won't matter without handling all the other stuff that BlackBerry has been botching for years. Not trying to rehash that, just sort of summarizing.

    What you seem to be saying here is that in terms of general strategy, Microsoft has done the sorts of things that I say matters (for BBRY) but lacks the Ecosystem (Google Play), and so this supports the argument that Google Play will be the key factor (or prerequisite requirement).

    So, then I think we're zeroing in on the measure to see what claim is more correct (if that can truly be done clearly). If BBRY's strategy which is pretty much only addressing the Ecosystem (maybe some security, maybe some keyboard appeal), then that should equate to more success than Microsoft is having with Windows phone.

    Now, I think that's an imperfect measure, because Microsoft isn't BlackBerry, and they've not really paralleled each other nor have we accounted for all possible issues each of them has. But, generally, I think this is a decent measure.

    If the Priv, due to Ecosystem improvements, and assuming they don't launch a significant effort in all the other areas (PR, Advertising, Marketing, Customer Support, Carrier Relations, etc) "succeeds" (matches or exceeds Window's phone share in a reasonable period of time--someone else mentioned two quarters), then I guess we would have to say it was a success.

    Now if Windows Phone dives to zero, and BlackBerry remains there...well, there goes that comparison. But suffice it to say, we should expect to see a noticeable improvement IF you are correct and Ecosystem is the key issue that will allow BlackBerry to become more successful as a company.

    KAM
    09-28-15 03:10 PM
  17. KAM1138's Avatar
    That's the thing. Some of things people claim BB should have done differently on BB10 are things Microsoft did do on Windows Phone, and it did not matter. Great dev tools (MS has always done great at that), and they advertised. And lots of people do know about Windows Phone.

    Yet, the carriers mostly ignored them. And the big apps players (especially Google), shunned WinPhone. So it has pretty much failed.

    And surprise surprise, Microsoft tinkered with the idea of running Android apps on Windows Phone. Seems like they also think Google Play access is pretty much table stakes for gaining any share in the smartphone market.
    To reiterate another point that has been floating around a bit. Let's say Microsoft and BlackBerry both adopted Android so they could access their ecosystem. Is that the sort of innovation that changes the course of things, similar to what Apple did when BlackBerry was fat and happy in 2008? I'd say the answer is clearly no. They are simply falling in line and following (along with many others).

    This is a key reason that I'm skeptical that the Ecosystem will be sufficient to "save" BlackBerry (specifically them as a handset manufacturer). I think Chen is a penny pincher (good in some ways) and is pursuing Android for that reason. However, this is not without side effects. This path relegates BlackBerry to being a follower, not a (potential) innovator, with less and less to distinguish them--at least among the wider consumer market.

    Here WAS my worry (I'm slowly learning to care less)--they throw away an excellent OS (and that's where they are headed--the writing is on the wall, and of course they've dragged their feet for some time now, insuring the hole for BB10 gets deeper and deeper), and have painted themselves into a corner so if this doesn't work, they've thrown any hope of innovating away.

    Apple didn't change the narrative by following meekly what BlackBerry was doing. They went out there and convinced people (successfully) that the Prestige thing (a BlackBerry) was an outdated piece of junk and what they had to offer was better--was essential. They won with that bold strategy. I think that's every bit as important a lesson to be considering.

    KAM
    09-28-15 03:24 PM
  18. Going The Distance's Avatar
    I don't know "WHY" the lottery numbers are, just that they are.

    Come on back in a year or so and gloat about how wrong I was...I'll put it on my calendar. I'll stop by right after I take a spin around the new ice rink being opened up in Hell.

    Sorry I can't talk more--I gotta go check out all the news about the new "PRIV"

    So it begins...
    KAM
    What you being defensive?
    09-28-15 03:54 PM
  19. southlander's Avatar
    Now if Windows Phone dives to zero, and BlackBerry remains there...well, there goes that comparison. But suffice it to say, we should expect to see a noticeable improvement IF you are correct and Ecosystem is the key issue that will allow BlackBerry to become more successful as a company.
    Guessing. I give the Priv a "slim" chance to be successful on the scale of say returning good/large profits to BlackBerry. I give it a "good" chance of outselling all the individual BB10 handsets, but perhaps still losing money or a little better.

    BUT price price price. That's a big factor. If BB prices it like a Note 5, then forget it. Done.
    09-28-15 04:43 PM
  20. Soulstream's Avatar
    Everybody is saying "if Apple could do it, then so can BB" or similar stuff. The thing is Apple is truly an unique case, one in a million and cannot be compared to any other tech company out there (even google and microsoft) in terms of branding, marketing and (perceived) innovation. Such a miracle happens maybe once a decade.

    Yes, Google was fast on its feet and changed direction with Android (the first Android phone was supposed to be a BB style PKB phone) and snowballed from there with the app ecosystem, much like Microsoft did with Windows. But I stand by my opinion that it's better for the market as a whole that Google succeeded in the mobile market, than have Microsoft succeed. I don't want Microsoft to dominate both mobile and desktop.
    Tre Lawrence and MikeX74 like this.
    09-28-15 04:57 PM
  21. KAM1138's Avatar
    Guessing. I give the Priv a "slim" chance to be successful on the scale of say returning good/large profits to BlackBerry. I give it a "good" chance of outselling all the individual BB10 handsets, but perhaps still losing money or a little better.

    BUT price price price. That's a big factor. If BB prices it like a Note 5, then forget it. Done.
    Yes, but I'd guess that lower volume (compared to Note 5) will lead to higher costs, plus the slider is probably more costly. I'm guessing the curved screen is too (a features I don't think I'd like, having seen a few others). So, what are they doing to do? LOSE money on the sale of the

    They can't afford to sell for a loss, because that defeats the purpose. They don't have another chance to say "well, we'll make it back on the next one."

    It seems we agree that the Priv MUST outsell BB10 offerings or the whole exercise was a waste. But even so...that doesn't mean much, other than "well we sucked slightly less."

    KAM
    09-28-15 04:57 PM
  22. yhamaie's Avatar
    I suppose that the declining market share of BlackBerry 10 devices (and relatively recent legacy OS devices) might have been a loss to Qualcomm as well.

    I hope that PRIV by BlackBerry will seduce corporate users (who used to be addictive to legacy OS devices) away from iPhone so that the sale of Qualcomm chips will increase consequently.

    It's Qualcomm Inside BlackBerry's First Android Phone - Qualcomm Inc. (NASDAQ:QCOM) | Seeking Alpha

    http://forums.crackberry.com/news-ru...i-love-811313/

    09-30-15 01:34 AM
  23. ubizmo's Avatar
    What you seem to be saying here is that in terms of general strategy, Microsoft has done the sorts of things that I say matters (for BBRY) but lacks the Ecosystem (Google Play), and so this supports the argument that Google Play will be the key factor (or prerequisite requirement).

    So, then I think we're zeroing in on the measure to see what claim is more correct (if that can truly be done clearly). If BBRY's strategy which is pretty much only addressing the Ecosystem (maybe some security, maybe some keyboard appeal), then that should equate to more success than Microsoft is having with Windows phone.
    I think this is a pretty good comparison, although there is some ambiguity in the term "ecosystem". As I think of it, "ecosystem" comprises two elements: apps and services. Microsoft, unlike BlackBerry, has its own suite of services: search, maps, email, calendar, storage. BlackBerry has just Maps, and even that is only functional in certain regions. Microsoft is also on the verge of adding an ecosystem innovation, which is apps that work on both mobile and laptop installations of the OS. It remains to be seen how well this will work out, but it's definitely a step forward. In fact, I think the plan to take this step has been the reason why WP itself has been somewhat slow to mature. Everything had to be done with an eye to the eventual fusion of mobile and non-mobile systems.

    Microsoft is already spending a lot of money advertising Windows 10 -- some very nice television commercials, aired often. I expect them to really cut loose when the WP10 flagships are launched.

    BlackBerry Priv, on the other hand, will get the Android apps and Google services, but for differentiation they are depending entirely on hardware (slider, and perhaps eventually an Android Passport), security, and BBXP (BlackBerry Experience). It's very hard to guess how much broad appeal the slider will have. The security will be appealing to enterprise customers, but might actually be a negative for consumers, if it prevents rooting or loading custom ROMs. Granted, 75% of Android users don't root, but that's still a good chunk who do. Whether anyone will actually care about BBXP is utterly unknown.

    I think Microsoft still has the edge here.
    09-30-15 09:12 AM
  24. KAM1138's Avatar
    I think this is a pretty good comparison, although there is some ambiguity in the term "ecosystem". As I think of it, "ecosystem" comprises two elements: apps and services. Microsoft, unlike BlackBerry, has its own suite of services: search, maps, email, calendar, storage. BlackBerry has just Maps, and even that is only functional in certain regions. Microsoft is also on the verge of adding an ecosystem innovation, which is apps that work on both mobile and laptop installations of the OS. It remains to be seen how well this will work out, but it's definitely a step forward. In fact, I think the plan to take this step has been the reason why WP itself has been somewhat slow to mature. Everything had to be done with an eye to the eventual fusion of mobile and non-mobile systems.

    Microsoft is already spending a lot of money advertising Windows 10 -- some very nice television commercials, aired often. I expect them to really cut loose when the WP10 flagships are launched.

    BlackBerry Priv, on the other hand, will get the Android apps and Google services, but for differentiation they are depending entirely on hardware (slider, and perhaps eventually an Android Passport), security, and BBXP (BlackBerry Experience). It's very hard to guess how much broad appeal the slider will have. The security will be appealing to enterprise customers, but might actually be a negative for consumers, if it prevents rooting or loading custom ROMs. Granted, 75% of Android users don't root, but that's still a good chunk who do. Whether anyone will actually care about BBXP is utterly unknown.

    I think Microsoft still has the edge here.
    First--I think that your mention of "services" is something that people either forget about or are blinded to by "APPS, APPS!" Personally, I'm more interested in what the device does before Third Party apps come into play. If that is lacking, then I'm not concerned. I'm almost to the point where I'd be happy with a good selection of "services" ( features?) than to pay extra for a decent app, or pay nothing for trash apps.

    The only "apps" that I really am interested in are games (for pay) and I sure as heck don't want to play those on a phone--I want a tablet for that. That's where I'd want an Android Device--on a toy that I have no personal information on, and don't depend on for anything important.

    As for "google services"...well, I really don't care about them at all, but that's just me. But you're right--the Priv is banking on standing out due to Hardware and some watered down BlackBerry interface. Well, good luck with that.

    They clearly aren't targeting "me" (meaning people who like BB10 and what it offers), and it wouldn't matter anyway, because 100% of Blackberry customers aren't enough now, so they won't be with any device. So, they are targeting people who they HOPE changes their mind and is willing to trust BlackBerry, and go for this damaged Brand because they are so in love with the physical keyboard, slider form factor, a PROMISE of security, and BlackBerry experience as you say.

    I wonder if anyone asked if this was a good bet given that ALL of those people have already decided that they could live without these things. So, even if they DO like them, it isn't just a question of choosing one over the other. Rather it requires them to leave what they have now. Again, I say good luck.

    Blackberry is offering a weak "me too" device with a few unique features that likely have a low level of appeal to most people, AND which will likely have to cost more. Someone else has pointed this out--if the cost isn't right (read low), then this is a done deal. NO ONE is going to take on the burden of trusting BlackBerry (the joke company) for a minor preference, assuming that preference even exists.

    One other note--regarding Microsoft's attempt to bridge mobile and non-mobile. Well, I have to admit--that's what I've ALWAYS had in the back of my mind from the time I bought a Windows CE PDA. That's what I've wanted since I was a kid gawking at the first portable Computers.

    As good as some Mobile devices are, none of them have really bridged that gap. If Microsoft can do that, then I'm definitely interested.

    KAM
    dusanvn likes this.
    09-30-15 09:34 AM
  25. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I think this is a pretty good comparison, although there is some ambiguity in the term "ecosystem". As I think of it, "ecosystem" comprises two elements: apps and services. Microsoft, unlike BlackBerry, has its own suite of services: search, maps, email, calendar, storage. BlackBerry has just Maps, and even that is only functional in certain regions. Microsoft is also on the verge of adding an ecosystem innovation, which is apps that work on both mobile and laptop installations of the OS. It remains to be seen how well this will work out, but it's definitely a step forward. In fact, I think the plan to take this step has been the reason why WP itself has been somewhat slow to mature. Everything had to be done with an eye to the eventual fusion of mobile and non-mobile systems.

    Microsoft is already spending a lot of money advertising Windows 10 -- some very nice television commercials, aired often. I expect them to really cut loose when the WP10 flagships are launched.

    BlackBerry Priv, on the other hand, will get the Android apps and Google services, but for differentiation they are depending entirely on hardware (slider, and perhaps eventually an Android Passport), security, and BBXP (BlackBerry Experience). It's very hard to guess how much broad appeal the slider will have. The security will be appealing to enterprise customers, but might actually be a negative for consumers, if it prevents rooting or loading custom ROMs. Granted, 75% of Android users don't root, but that's still a good chunk who do. Whether anyone will actually care about BBXP is utterly unknown.

    I think Microsoft still has the edge here.
    I think you've highlighted exactly why Microsoft's gamble just might pay off. Like Google, it has a bank of services that form its own ecosystem: the ones you've already mentioned, and I'd even add Microsoft Office to the list.

    Microsoft is also being pragmatic, in that it's making said services available on competing platforms.

    I'm interested to see how Windows 10 translates to mobile, but if the promise actually matures, it should be compelling indeed. I do like Windows Phone as a platform.
    09-30-15 10:21 AM
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