09-30-15 10:21 AM
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  1. KAM1138's Avatar
    Because of the brand. The tech pod-casters laugh every time I hear them mention BB10. They call it BlackBerry's failed OS. Same thing anywhere you go. Cell carrier stores. Everywhere, this sentiment pervades for whatever reasons. Windows ME, Windows Vista, Windows 8 etc. are proof that once everyone dumps on an OS, it becomes "bad" even though it's not (necessarily).

    I use both Android and BlackBerry 10. I don't care what they use. I just want them to not be the laughing stock of the mobile phone world anymore.

    I say let them put out this phone and see. If it fails, then we all know Android was not the path -- at least not this late in the game. Better than watching BB10 continually diminish.
    If it is because of the Brand (Image), which I agree is a problem, then how is a different OS going to matter?
    This gets back to the issue that repairing the Brand image needs to be a priority--not an afterthought or wishful hope.

    Part of the reason BB10 failed was due to BlackBerry NOT putting in effort with marketing and communication to rebuild their brand and bolster confidence in the company. They launched into an environment that had some Buzz, but a lot of negativity, and people eager to bash any little problem.

    When you've got "tech podcasters" (for example) tittering about your company and products like they are jokes, when reality is that the products are actually quality, then you've got a massive PR problem. Blackberry has proven itself totally incapable or unwilling to deal with this problem--for years.

    Now, they are poised to launch another device into an environment that is as bad and I'd say worse in terms of PR and Brand Image. Why would anyone expect the result to be different? Are these these twerps--self-styled tech experts or commentators going to suddenly see the light and realize that Blackberry DOES have good products, OR are they more likely to continue their (comfortable) narrative that they've invested themselves in?

    We aren't likely to get to the point where there is any serious evaluation of Android/Blackberry combination, because its going to be declared a joke (because the BRAND is a joke) regardless of what the technology is--EXACTLY like what happened to BB10.

    That's how I see it, and nothing indicates that the environment is any better than it was, and PR, Marketing, Brand Image, etc all matter greatly.

    People can argue "ecosystem" all they want, and that's certainly another issue, but this is a "weakest link in the chain" issue, so even if you assume that those ecosystem issues are now covered, it still won't matter if another link snaps.

    So, yes--all you people who "trust Chen" or his great experience, when little folks like me don't. When will reality mean more to you than assumption of competence that we place on these CEOs. We were all here cheering Heins hoping he would get things right, and confident in his credentials and those of his team too. Well, the FACT is that they failed miserably, so "faith" and trust in someone because they sit in some position is worthless, without the action to back it up.

    Chen is NOT taking those steps, or if he is, there is no sign of it.

    KAM
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-24-15 08:58 AM
  2. I will be back's Avatar
    The only manufacturers of cheap Android phones are increasing they market share.
    Samsung, Sony, HTC are loosing it's market share.

    So in order to gain some traction BB will be one of ZTE, HAMSWAN, Leagoo, UHAPPY, Foxconn manufacturing landfill devices.

    I don't think about it as a way to success.

    I hope there is a place for premium BB10 phones in BB future.
    09-24-15 09:05 AM
  3. undone's Avatar
    Hardware is a dead end for BB. Once you accept that, everything else makes sense.
    09-24-15 09:05 AM
  4. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hardware is a dead end for BB. Once you accept that, everything else makes sense.
    Well, isn't what you actually mean that Hardware AND operating systems are dead. AND...well, producing the Venice is NOT really "hardware is dead" because that's still technically Blackberry hardware.

    When there's no hardware and no operating system, that's pretty much "No consumer products." That's probably what Chen is heading for.

    KAM
    09-24-15 09:28 AM
  5. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    In regards to those people who discussed Blackberry Brand image, marketing, PR, etc, and that many Tech bloggers and the media consider Blackberry a Joke, or a "dead" company.

    Blackberry is rumored to be putting out a phone that has a name that its Loyal fans are slapping their foreheads over. Is there ANY doubt in our minds at this point that there's a problem within BlackBerry in regards to marketing/PR?

    They're BEGGING for ridicule.

    I had a really good laugh last night about this, but its really not very funny at all. I have very serious doubts about a company that I own stock in, because it is STAGGERING how inept they seem to be. Just unbelievably inept at things that should be much, much simpler.

    People have been losing their jobs at Blackberry for a long time now, but THESE people are allowed to stay and keep failing? Who is in charge of this? Who the heck is going to answer for this nonsense?

    KAM
    RyanGermann likes this.
    09-24-15 09:37 AM
  6. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Hardware is a dead end for BB. Once you accept that, everything else makes sense.
    Until they have software that customers will buy in volume, or enough long term patent licensing deals.... they really, really, really need to be in the hardware business at least for the short term. If BES & Good start making money and increasing revenues, if QNX continues to expand and gets into the IoT markets then maybe in 12 - 24 months from now there will be enough revenues that an end of hardware won't matter.... if this Android experiment fails.

    Do I think that BlackBerry is going to compete "head to head" with Samsung, HTC, ZTE or OnePlus.... NO.

    But with their keyboard and their focuses on some level of security (maybe not BB10 level, but better than stock Android I hope) and enterprise.... maybe they'll be able to sell enough to make it worth doing.
    undone likes this.
    09-24-15 10:15 AM
  7. KAM1138's Avatar
    But with their keyboard and their focuses on some level of security (maybe not BB10 level, but better than stock Android I hope) and enterprise.... maybe they'll be able to sell enough to make it worth doing.
    Do you think that "security better than android" is going to matter to many people? I mean, Android users already accept the security state that provides, and Blackberry users will likely be taking a step down (maybe sideways at best).
    I just don't see "MODERATE IMPROVEMENT!" as a strong selling point.

    KAM
    09-24-15 10:38 AM
  8. undone's Avatar
    Well, isn't what you actually mean that Hardware AND operating systems are dead. AND...well, producing the Venice is NOT really "hardware is dead" because that's still technically Blackberry hardware.

    When there's no hardware and no operating system, that's pretty much "No consumer products." That's probably what Chen is heading for.

    KAM
    Nope. I mean what I wrote. Hardware is a dead end. There goal is to become a software company. I know they need to make up the lost revenue stream (I think it was in the neighborhood of 40% of profits) from hardware, but I would bet more on Chen licensing everything out more and more than him continuing to make mainstream consumer devices. Anything they do at this point (assuming no further BB10 devices) is just a stop gap to stem the revenue bleed. Just a blind dead end for users not paying attention to what the company is saying.

    BB10 will most likely continue to exist as a secure solution operating system (probably a name change too), but limited and not generally available via standard endpoints (carriers and such). The mark up will be similar to the SecuSmart tablet. BB may or may not make the hardware.

    Again just an opinion based on observations and what is actually said.
    09-24-15 10:39 AM
  9. KAM1138's Avatar
    Nope. I mean what I wrote. Hardware is a dead end. There goal is to become a software company. I know they need to make up the lost revenue stream (I think it was in the neighborhood of 40% of profits) from hardware, but I would bet more on Chen licensing everything out more and more than him continuing to make mainstream consumer devices. Anything they do at this point (assuming no further BB10 devices) is just a stop gap to stem the revenue bleed. Just a blind dead end for users not paying attention to what the company is saying.

    BB10 will most likely continue to exist as a secure solution operating system (probably a name change too), but limited and not generally available via standard endpoints (carriers and such). The mark up will be similar to the SecuSmart tablet. BB may or may not make the hardware.

    Again just an opinion based on observations and what is actually said.
    Well, I actually agree with your position...if it were what BlackBerry was actually doing. I'm not so sure.
    When rumors of Android on Blackberry started, that struck me as the exact opposite of what a "Software Company" would do. Rather, I think that working with a top-of-the-line hardware manufacturer using BB10 (or something beyond it) would be the obvious path to pursue.

    What do you think would sell better for the consumer? A Phone with Samsung on it, with Blackberry powering the interface, or a phone with Blackberry on the label running...well, it doesn't matter what its running to most people at that point.

    What would have to change to make BB10 MORE appealing to even more limited users? Government and business are already tolerating Android and iOS? What would convince them to come back to (require) BB10 or it successor?

    But you're right--what you outline WOULD be more of a plan that falls into being a "Software Company."

    KAM
    undone likes this.
    09-24-15 10:49 AM
  10. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Do you think that "security better than android" is going to matter to many people? I mean, Android users already accept the security state that provides, and Blackberry users will likely be taking a step down (maybe sideways at best).
    I just don't see "MODERATE IMPROVEMENT!" as a strong selling point.

    KAM
    Consumers.... NO

    Enterprise.... Maybe. While I'm sure that enterprise want the best security they can afford. I'm not sure BlackBerry's reputation is going to get them many new customers. Finical problems and flip/flopping between three different OS in three years... just doesn't instill confidence.

    But you do what you can and hope for the best.....BB10 wasn't getting the job done.
    09-24-15 11:08 AM
  11. KAM1138's Avatar
    Consumers.... NO

    Enterprise.... Maybe. While I'm sure that enterprise want the best security they can afford. I'm not sure BlackBerry's reputation is going to get them many new customers. Finical problems and flip/flopping between three different OS in three years... just doesn't instill confidence.

    But you do what you can and hope for the best.....BB10 wasn't getting the job done.
    I agree with your general take, but I'll differ. BB10 is a product that does its job quite well. Blackberry Management isn't/wasn't getting the job done.

    KAM
    09-24-15 11:40 AM
  12. bidagreat1's Avatar
    Still to this day not many consumers know of BB10, so stop blaming the product and blame the C.E.O. for not marketing their product right.

    If you started a business with a well thought out plan and no one knew you were in business YOU wouldn't make a buck!!

    Working Wide with my Passport to Perfection
    KAM1138 likes this.
    09-24-15 11:53 AM
  13. aussieinjapan's Avatar
    I think its a good idea ! most people have at least heard of Blackberry so they have the name.
    When you go to the store here in Japan, the blackberry name will stand out.
    Samsung doesnt sell well here, Sony does ok. The Nexus range is on small carriers but Blackberry (on docomo) could really push into the business sectors
    09-24-15 12:00 PM
  14. crucial bbq's Avatar
    As usual, I am Mr. Opinionated. Here it goes:


    There is no premium Android phone manufacturer which is not losing it's market share to cheap Android phones.
    So BB as one of thousands of Android vendors is going down and fast.
    But don't they all make cheap phones themselves? ZTE, Huawei, and a few others are killing it, though. I mean, ZTE offers sub $200 phones with decent specs and I believe this is why Chen got out of the "developing markets". They both also offer open source phones, which I believe is the future (Tizen, Jolla, Firefox OS, Ubuntu,...true open source backed by the real Linux community. At lest Linux developers are more concerned with bleeding edge than getting paid, it seems), and, they can more easily cater to the Chinese market. They focused on their "own" market which is what Samsung does, too, and what Apple and Google did initially somewhat. In my opinion BlackBerry should have focused on the North American market instead of chasing down those "smaller market" shares where BBOS is still relatively popular.

    But yes, BlackBerry faces the reality of getting lost in a sea of Android. You know, all of those in Android all manufacture multiple lines of phones each. Apple is the only one who essentially makes only one phone. For BlackBerry to seriously compete on the Android market then they would have to make numerous Android devices, too. Luckily, they are not doing that because the whole point of the Priv is showcase BES12/BlackBerry "security"/Productivity Suite on non-BlackBerry phones. If you actually watch Chen's interviews since earlier in this year onward this would be made clear. Chen's focus is on end-point security and the The Priv is just another example of what BlackBerry can do. XDA Developers even agrees with this. The Priv could be their only Android phone or they may drop BB10 completely but the motives would not be because "BB10 failed and lacks an ecosystem". While Chen acknowledges the importance of an ecosystem he really does not care about having an ecosystem as much as cares about securing end-point devices. That is likely were all of the "Chen does not care about his customers/phones" comes in.

    I'll bet anyone that Chen still uses a BB10 device as his daily driver (and perhaps only phone). Heck, even Google top dog Eric Schmidt still uses a BlackBerry as his daily driver because of the physical keyboard.

    I hate to say it but many (most?) of you need to look to other sources for news. At least 75% of what BlackBerry is doing is not being reported on CrackBerry, N4BB, BGR, etc. Starting with Chen's interviews would be good.

    This has been said many, many times and it's still a bad argument. What alternative do you propose? Sticking with BB10? It's clear that sales of BB10 devices aren't enough to sustain their hardware business.

    Posted via CB10
    How about staying the course? If Chen does not care about handsets (and he has been advised to leave the handset business, or at least questioned why he is still in it by analysts), then he is not going to care if it is BB10, Android, or what-ever. And if BlackBerry is now about end-point security then BB10 is still the best solution. Apple did and it took them a solid decade but now look where they are at. Jobs did his thing and ignored detractors day in and day out, even those that were fanbois.

    Not sure how the Canadians do it but why not write off the handset division as a loss? Actually, I am pretty sure that is what BlackBerry has been doing for tax purposes but they could build "losing" phones while still gaining revenue from other sources.

    I think the point as we have been hearing is secure android. Blaclberry isn't moving to android just to have a stock android device. Believe me there will be some "stand outs" to let the consumer know the difference. Let's all just wait until unveiling. You guys are grasping at straws trying to spin this in the best and worst ways.

    Posted via CB10
    I hope so. If anything the Priv needs to look and feel enough like a BlackBerry phone through and through or else it is just going to be another Android with a "retro" keyboard. At least BB10 still felt and looked like an OS built by BlackBerry.

    I believe you.

    Just after seen that Samsung, LG, Sony and every other premium manufacturer is losing money and market share on premium devices, I see no chance for BB to do any better.

    Anyway, I was an Android user for 4 years and I'm not going to that ****hole again
    Some Android users are brand loyalists like those who are with BlackBerry but most just go with what ever is cool and CHEAP for the week. That is the main difference between the average Android user and the average iPhone user.

    I'll tell you one thing, if BlackBerry history repeats itself as it has done time and time again (at least here in the States) and BlackBerry releases the Priv at a high price point...

    I'll also bet that some Android diehards are going to look at the Edge screen and only see a knockoff.

    BlackBerry only needs to sell enough devices to sustain a hardware business at breakeven. Anything after that is gravy.

    BB10 is a financial disaster with no hope of recovery.

    A high-end BlackBerry-branded Android device with better security, the HUB, and a world-class pkb should make it stand out. This isn't just another slab.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    I think that even if the Priv sells just below break-even that would be considered a huge success (by recent BlackBerry standards).

    The Priv is definitely going to stand out for sure. What remains to be seen is if it sells or not. Even BlackBerry diehards are on the fence. This is not a Passport vs. Classic vs. Z30 scenario unless BlackBerry has skinned Lollipop enough to please BB10 fanbois with the proper security and UI.

    I don't think it matters that the PKB be world-class or not, I don't think the Android market really cares. Some professionals might care, which is another reason why this is a business phone, but honestly if the average Android consumer wanted PKB there would be more high-end devices with one; and those left the scene back in what, 2010? It seems that most who left BlackBerry/RIM back in the day went to iPhone anyways, not Android. These are the ones who remember the good 'ol days with BlackBerry.

    However, I feel that BB10 still has a chance.

    In my opinion, BlackBerry could have spent all of its $3 billion on advertising, and it wouldn't have accomplished a single thing if what they were peddling had no ecosystem.

    They were already out of the game before BB10 was even launched, because they were two years too late.

    I can't predict how the Android device will do, but I see little alternative.

    Carrier support is crucial to volume sales. Waterloo can produce adds as much as they like, but you need the carriers to flog the devices. For the first time in ages, the carriers actually seem interested. Android sites are interested. Tech bloggers are interested.

    I'm hoping for the best.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    If BlackBerry was dropping $3B on advertising the developers most definitely would have come.

    You do make a good, often not considered, point: carriers. The more carriers who carry your phone the more phones you will sell. Here in the States BlackBerry could have moved a few more units if the Passport, for example, if it was not "locked" to AT&T retail stores. I don't even think it is actually in their stores, only available online. I've been in a few to check it out and have yet to see one in person.

    This is also the exact reason why Samsung has yet to release a Tizen phone iirc; lack of carrier support/interests.

    It is one think to be interested, it is another to actually buy the phone. If BlackBerry actually does the right thing and releases this phone in time for "Shopping Holiday" Season for once it is going to go up against all other top of the line phones on the market. At least it would still be better than BlackBerry releasing a phone after everyone has spent their disposable incomes...

    I was beaten to it but yes they have been "trying" and "attempting" to do secure android. Believe blackberry reputation alone on security is going to let the consumer know they are really doing it. Let alone blackberry getting it right.

    Posted via CB10
    Even Chen says that the average consumer is not concerned with security (his example is iPhone users, which who he is actually on record as calling "dumb"). We are only as secure as we are ourselves.


    First...I think you underestimate how effective advertising can be in promoting things (even inferior things). Brand identity is a VERY powerful thing, and while there is no arguing that BlackBerry as a brand is damaged goods, Apple was also one time at a low ebb in terms of Brand appeal (before the ipod). 3 Billion...yeah, it would have made a huge difference, but we both know no one would spend that or have to.
    If advertising does not work that Google's whole reason to exist would not exist. Same with Facebook; both make their money not only selling data for targeted advertising but also with inventing new ways to collect and sell user data.

    Google actually wants to develop the tech that would accurately predict which product you are going to buy. For example, if you are looking at two pairs of shoes they want to figure out a way to "know" which pair you are going to ultimately buy not only based on past shopping data but also on emotional state and personality. I kid you not. That is exactly why there is Google Glasses.

    However, imagine taking 500 million (for example) as spending it on developing your ecosystem, insuring that your device has all those apps that the kiddies and grandparents want/demand (or are told they need) and flock to other devices to get. THEN add all the superior functionality on BB10 on top of that.
    Even Chen describes this as chicken or egg. Will apps bring customers or will customers bring apps? They both need to happen simultaneously.

    I think that's what people are envisioning happening with the "Best of both worlds" hope with the Android phone, but I think its just in reverse, AND without doing the work needed to repair the Brand.
    Agree for the most part but keep in mind that BlackBerry's brand is now defacto security, not handsets as they once were with RIM.

    Carriers are fickle, AND I'd be careful relying on them to support the Venice. Why? Do you really think that these ill-informed twerps that knew nothing about BB10 or how to provide people options and information have ANY interest in promoting Blackberry over Samsung or LG? No--they want to push a phone into someone's hand as quickly as possible, and if someone comes in because they saw a Samsung Ad, they're more than happy to sell them one. Blackberry won't even be mentioned.
    When I bought my bought my Z10 from Verizon, the sales rep was pretty stoked (I seem to be the only one on CrackBerry with a positive Verizon/BB10 experience). Not only that, but Verizon held BB10 classes/informational sessions/how-to's open to public. These are still achieved on their website for your convenience. Not sure about anyone else, though. AT&T does have some positive information about BB10/BlackBerry on their own website, though.

    We're existing in a bubble, where Tech Bloggers and Phone Websites matter. You probably know this--they don't mean squat to most people. HOWEVER, BlackBerry is not even doing a good job getting THOSE outlets informed and excited. We're both posting at a Website DEDICATED to BlackBerry, and it has ZERO to offer us in terms of any sort of official news or information.
    Matter to who? The average smart phone user is either going to get their info from a sales rep, family member, friend, or Internet forum. Only fanbois and the more geeky are going to read tech blogs or poke around sites such as CrackBerry.

    We're out here begging for some scrap of information. BEGGING like fools, hoping beyond hope that BlackBerry somehow gets it right this time.
    Because it is not there. I've looked hard for anything, and, nothing is available beyond the Venice/Priv outside of "other" BlackBerry news (acquisitions, stock info, etc.). I don't think this is an indication that BB10 is dead but more so about Chen finally changing the culture at BlackBerry (and BlackBerry likely losing those who were excited to leak info). Chen wants consumers to think "security" when they hear the name "BlackBerry", not "the best PKB phone, ever!".

    I really don't want to be negative, but the frustration is really high with BlackBerry (just bought a Silver Edition Passport), and I'm a stockholder, but I see nothing approaching a coherent, competent plan, or offering coming out of them. And if there is a plan it is LONG past time that they start conveying what that is.
    That is because BlackBerry's plan and offerings with Chen at the helm is end-point security. In the [Waterloo] Chamber of Commerce interview from earlier in 2015 Chen said, There are 7 billion people on the planet, and yet, 10 billion smart phones. Now, when we look at end-points, things like automobile computer systems, smart phones, servers, radios, light switches, medical equipment, refrigerators, rockets, there are 100 billion end-points, and those need to be secured. I mean, what would happen if someone hacked into your car and then your car started driving itself? Taking you somewhere else. He actually said that about the car driving itself. Point being, that is where BlackBerry is going under Chen. 100 billion end points that need to be secured; the recent acquisitions of AtHoc and Good; and Chen stating time after time that this is where they are going: to secure those endpoints. This is why I believe BB10 may still live on to see another day and why it baffles me that so many still see BlackBerry as "phone company".

    You know, Microsoft earns $1 - $8 per Android phone sold because of licensed patents from Microsoft that are in use in Android OS.

    BlackBerry is no different; they make money from licensing patents. The U.S. Department of Defense and Homeland Security may be ditching their BB10 phones but they are still leasing BlackBerry patents, as an example.

    Just hang in their with your BBRY stocks, they will be worth $$$$.... eventually.

    We've been here before--in the early days of BB10 pre-launch, and they don't seem to have learned ANY lessons from that disaster. All they are doing is repeating the same mistakes (inaction mostly) but this time they're offering an Android Operating system, hoping to succeed with the "me too" strategy. I am not sure why this makes anyone feel optimistic, but bless you if you are.

    KAM
    The irony is that BB10 is now matured where as when it was released it was still only half done. BlackBerry can now simply take individual files and port them to Android. It also helps that Android itself is already 100% built to begin with. Even before the Venice the work required for BlackBerry-to-Android was already 90% done for them.

    BlackBerry tried everything they could to get the developers on board (prior to, during, and immediately after BB10 launch), but they refused.

    Netflix had a working app that they could have ported to BlackBerry World immediately, in under 5 minutes, at no cost. They refused because they saw no value in supporting a third ecosystem that was already miles behind the other two. Same for Instagram, same for Snapchat. The list goes on. BlackBerry offered cash incentives, and they offered to provide app support. Still nothing.

    Again, I believe it was over before it even started.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    According to IDC the reason why developers where reluctant to develop for BB10 was because even though it was supposed to be the new, improved, and modern BlackBerry OS that BBOS 7 phones were still outshining and outselling BB10 well throughout 2013 and slightly beyond, I believe.

    If Thor just released the effin' Q10 first like everyone wanted things may have turned out drastically different for BB10.


    Advertising doesn't mean anything these days with the sheepish culture and media we have now. The amazon fire phone was heavily advertised. The facebook phone was heavily advertised and they were both complete failures who disappeared from the market in no time. The fact that bb10 was actually a good product is what kept it from the same instant fate as those phones. Most of the advertising these days is free and comes from the media. If all they mention is apple then that's something you have no control over. The media didn't use to have that kind of control so advertising did use to matter.

    But it's sad how many people seem to want less competition these days.

    Posted via CB10
    Uh, Amazon Fire phone is still around and saw some minor success with a recent Amazon promotion. FaceBook was just stupid. Ironically if they built an "Instagram" phone, that might have had a different outcome.

    If advertising did not matter than why is it all over Crackberry and every other website you visit? Why is it all over [most] free apps? Why is it all over bus stop benches, store front windows, billboards, sides of cabs, and so on? It has just become so ubiquitous that it seems easy to "not notice".


    Blackberry might not be able to entirely counter the desire for access to Apps (most of which are worthless), but it isn't all there is to Mobile Computing, and people CAN be shown that this is the case. Now, they DO want their headlining apps, and I believe this CAN be done (even if it costs significant money). THEN you can move forward, and your Ecosystem WILL come along.
    Amazon has most of the "headlining apps". What they do not have are the Google branded apps and those non-Google Android apps that require Google Services. Otherwise if it is a name brand app Amazon is likely to have it.

    Android has apps that iOS does not and some that iOS users want. iOS has apps that Android does not and some that Android users want. Same is true for WinPhone and BB10. That is just the way it goes.

    In the end, Google curates the apps available to your phone based on what phone you have, your location, and your carrier. So the only way to get access to 100% of the apps is through side loading, anyways.

    I said BlackBerry's total cash reserve is $3 billion. Apple and Samsung spend a third of that entire reserve each and every year, year after year.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    And Apple and Samsung have way more products than cell phones. Samsung makes everything from lightbulbs to... and Apple sells all sorts of stuff on their website that is not available in their retail stores.

    The BB10 ship has sailed, because BlackBerry the company failed. Android being loaded on a phone won't change that, and I see little else they've done to correct other failures in their approach.

    The "android solution" isn't working for many companies that already do offer Android phones--it is NOT the answer in itself. I'd like to say that will be proven, but it already is--with pretty much Everyone except Samsung and maybe LG.

    We'll be back here in a year still hoping that somehow repeating the same mistakes will just happen to turn things around.

    I hope I'm wrong, and I'll happily admit it if I am.

    KAM
    BlackBerry failed because Heins thought he could rely solely on RIMs past history to sell phones and Chen is changing the culture of BlackBerry in-house. BlackBerry failed because they kept pushing back the release date of BB10, like what, three times? People got tired of waiting and moved on. BlackBerry failed because they released the Z10 first and not the desired Q10 first. BlackBerry failed because they released a half baked OS upon launch.

    Things could likely be totally different today with handsets had BB released the Q10 first. Or, the Classic and Z30 first.
    09-24-15 12:04 PM
  15. Poi25's Avatar
    There is no premium Android phone manufacturer which is not losing it's market share to cheap Android phones.
    So BB as one of thousands of Android vendors is going down and fast.
    Find me an Android OEM making high-quality hardware with high-quality physical keyboards sporting innovative touch layers/tricks.

    Don't post links to 2012 LG phones running Gingerbread and only released in Asia. Thanks.
    09-24-15 12:12 PM
  16. markus2107's Avatar
    I think the pkb as the one and - regrettably only - outstanding part of the Venice is not enough.

    BB is aiming to get new costumers from the big Android market. But those customers don't know BB10, the Hub, the good (virtual) keyboard and don't care about privacy (whether it is possible to deliver that with a BB, or not). So the only thing left for the majority of users is in fact the keyboard. But most of the users don't ask for keyboards. Even here on CrackBerry people are asking for an all touch high end device...
    09-24-15 12:50 PM
  17. MikeX74's Avatar
    The dangerous delusions of the BlackBerry fan | InfoWorld

    Delusion No. 1: BlackBerry's problem is a marketing failure

    One delusion is that BlackBerry's products are amazingly attractive, but bad marketing is hiding that fact from the world. With good marketing, everyone will abandon their iPhones and Android smartphones for a BlackBerry. After all, that's what these users did.

    Marketing can get people to consider a product and reinforce that you made the right choice earlier (so you buy again). But marketing can't make people buy something they don't want.

    Contrary to claims by desperate fanboys, people aren't buying iPhones because they are "iSheep" seduced by marketing for "overpriced" smartphones. In fact, outside the United States and Japan, people are buying Android smartphones, whose prices range from cheap to iPhone-level. Are those people "aSheep"? (For the record, when it comes to smartphones, in the United States, it's basically half iPhone and half Android.)

    Those people are also not buying an iPhone or Android device once, then seeing the error of their ways. No, they buy them again and again, with a minuscule number returning to BlackBerry. Marketing won't trump such personal experience and the word of mouth that results.

    Yes, BlackBerry 10 has compelling capabilities, but not enough to compete with iOS, Android, or even Windows Phone.
    Apparently anyone not buying a BlackBerry is a sheep of some sort. I guess it's too difficult for some people to accept the idea that people can actually make informed decisions and still choose something else.
    09-24-15 02:00 PM
  18. lift's Avatar
    @crucial bbq, Do you think anyone is going to sit here and read all of that post? Sorry to sound like a jerk but really?
    Witmen likes this.
    09-24-15 02:40 PM
  19. KAM1138's Avatar
    Apparently anyone not buying a BlackBerry is a sheep of some sort. I guess it's too difficult for some people to accept the idea that people can actually make informed decisions and still choose something else.
    What percentage of Phone purchasers do any sort of independent reading or learning and make an informed decision?
    That's not a question I have an answer to, but what I do know is that large portions of the public aren't particularly well informed on any given thing, including the ins and outs of phone technology, capabilities, etc.

    People CAN certainly make informed decisions, but I highly doubt this is the majority of people, which is exactly WHY advertising works so well. People tend to go along with what's put in front of them.

    People that buy Blackberry phones are by default either Legacy users (who may have one time been sheep) or who have NOT followed the things put in front of them (mostly Apple and Samsung) for some other reason.

    Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where people made well-reasoned and rational decisions...or decisions based on any sort of reasoning, but I really don't see that we do--not when it comes down to consumers as a whole.

    And yes--there are MANY people that are "iSheep." Sorry, if that offends anyone's well-meaning desire to think their fellow humans are not sheep, but in many things, many people are exactly that. Heck--maybe we all have that tendency in regards to one thing or another. Voting, Eating, what Underwear Brand we buy, what gas stations we frequent, etc. To claim this DOESN'T apply to things like smart-phone purchases is the outlandish claim.

    KAM
    09-24-15 02:46 PM
  20. KAM1138's Avatar
    @crucial bbq, Do you think anyone is going to sit here and read all of that post? Sorry to sound like a jerk but really?
    I actually did read it, BUT...I don't have the endurance to try and respond to all of it.

    KAM
    09-24-15 02:46 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    @crucialbbq,

    I realise Samsung and Apple have other products to market, but I WAS specifically referring to the smartphone budget.

    Samsung spent $14 billion on advertising, but $1 billion on smartphones in 2013.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    09-24-15 02:49 PM
  22. Poi25's Avatar
    What percentage of Phone purchasers do any sort of independent reading or learning and make an informed decision?
    That's not a question I have an answer to, but what I do know is that large portions of the public aren't particularly well informed on any given thing, including the ins and outs of phone technology, capabilities, etc.

    People CAN certainly make informed decisions, but I highly doubt this is the majority of people, which is exactly WHY advertising works so well. People tend to go along with what's put in front of them.

    People that buy Blackberry phones are by default either Legacy users (who may have one time been sheep) or who have NOT followed the things put in front of them (mostly Apple and Samsung) for some other reason.

    Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where people made well-reasoned and rational decisions...or decisions based on any sort of reasoning, but I really don't see that we do--not when it comes down to consumers as a whole.

    And yes--there are MANY people that are "iSheep." Sorry, if that offends anyone's well-meaning desire to think their fellow humans are not sheep, but in many things, many people are exactly that. Heck--maybe we all have that tendency in regards to one thing or another. Voting, Eating, what Underwear Brand we buy, what gas stations we frequent, etc. To claim this DOESN'T apply to things like smart-phone purchases is the outlandish claim.

    KAM
    Thank you, took the words out of my mouth so I didn't need to post them.

    Ask 100 people on the street with iPhones. >90% know nothing about them, and don't care to know. They saw the ads, saw that their friends own iPhones, and saw that they're pretty, so they bought one. Then they continue to buy them, because they don't want to change, and because now they're caught up in the walled garden.

    iSheep.

    We, the critical thinkers and gadget aficionados, are the minority.
    09-24-15 02:53 PM
  23. KAM1138's Avatar
    Thank you, took the words out of my mouth so I didn't need to post them.

    Ask 100 people on the street with iPhones. >90% know nothing about them, and don't care to know. They saw the ads, saw that their friends own iPhones, and saw that they're pretty, so they bought one. Then they continue to buy them, because they don't want to change, and because now they're caught up in the walled garden.

    iSheep.

    We, the critical thinkers and gadget aficionados, are the minority.
    Well, I apply critical thinking to a lot of things, in my professional and personal life, but I'm sure there are plenty of times that I don't. I'm not applying a lot of critical thinking in my coffee drinking--I am a creature of habit there. So, I don't want to claim to be above anyone else.

    However, I think Apple fans are a particularly good example of people who have intense brand loyalty, and know what they know about what they use them for, but perhaps little else. I would guess that they are much more likely to be waiting around for the next iphone release, rather than considering another. Apple is a somewhat unique case, because their offering in terms of phones is VERY narrow, compared to Android (even just Samsung).

    I'm going to do an experiment if I get the chance. I'm going to talk to a friend of mine, who is currently a Samsung (Galaxy 3 maybe) user, but who used to be a Blackberry user (when I was using a Pre), and who showed me his Blackberry device (which I liked). I'm going to see if there is any convincing I can do to get him to consider the Venice, or other Blackberry.

    KAM
    09-24-15 03:05 PM
  24. lnichols's Avatar
    Find me an Android OEM making high-quality hardware with high-quality physical keyboards sporting innovative touch layers/tricks.

    Don't post links to 2012 LG phones running Gingerbread and only released in Asia. Thanks.
    Don't you think that these higher end Android OEM's have done market research, surveys, etc to see if a PKB would be a selling point? They are all trying to differentiate in a sea of Android phones. Guess what PKB was a selling point until Apple showed it wasn't. Then all of BlackBerry's sales went away in markets that could afford iPhones and Android devices, and migrated to emerging markets that were buying BlackBerry for its low cost Curve devices on cheap plans, not for the PKB.

    This toilet, I mean Priv, will prove once and for all of their is a large market for PKB. No more excuses. If it doesn't sell well then it doesn't exist. If it does, then hey I'm wrong and you are right. I think Vegas would be on my side though.

    Posted via Z30
    lift likes this.
    09-24-15 03:21 PM
  25. MikeX74's Avatar
    Thank you, took the words out of my mouth so I didn't need to post them.

    Ask 100 people on the street with iPhones. >90% know nothing about them, and don't care to know. They saw the ads, saw that their friends own iPhones, and saw that they're pretty, so they bought one. Then they continue to buy them, because they don't want to change, and because now they're caught up in the walled garden.

    iSheep.

    We, the critical thinkers and gadget aficionados, are the minority.
    Let's assume that things are as you say, that those iPhone users only bought them because of ads or because their friends/family members had them. Did they keep them for the same reasons? You see, it's one thing to be drawn to a product because of marketing or peer influence, but it's another thing entirely to KEEP something because of those things.

    KAM speaks of the brand loyalty that Apple enjoys. Do you think that was built by marketing or peer influence? Good marketing can only take you so far. Good marketing has to be followed up with a good product. A company can have the splashiest marketing in the history of mankind and have millions of people buy what they're selling, but if those millions of people are dissatisfied with that product, not only would they have millions of products being returned, but they'd have millions of consumers who will most likely never buy another product from that company AND that will tell everyone they know about their bad experience. If iPhones didn't function well or fill the needs of consumers, they wouldn't have the user base, or the high customer satisfaction scores they do. As for peer influence, do you think iPhone users recommend them because they want to add more "sheep" to the flock? They do so because of a good experience. There's no way in hell that I would lay down hundreds of dollars for something and NOT return it if it didn't do what I needed it to do, or work the way I want it to. The iPhone as a product line has a customer base of over half a billion people. Are you suggesting that most, or all of this user base is made up of "iSheep?" Dismissing the iPhone's success as the result of a herd mentality or marketing has become the go-to excuse for BB fans and it's short-sighted in the extreme. However you dismiss the iPhone's success, Apple is doing something right. BlackBerry could've learned from the success of the iPhone, and had opportunities to do so, but hey spent the last eight years dismissing it as a toy. No wonder they're in the state they're in.
    Last edited by MikeX74; 09-25-15 at 06:01 AM.
    Shlooky, jmr1015, dusanvn and 1 others like this.
    09-24-15 04:26 PM
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