09-30-15 10:21 AM
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  1. KAM1138's Avatar
    I think you VASTLY underestimate the cost of advertising, etc.
    According to Conite that would have been 3 times what Samsung or Apple spends. So, no, I really don't think I do.

    You both seem to be making (or agreeing) with the argument that advertising doesn't work, knowing full well that it does--Samsung and Apple are examples of that. They promote things like Apps, and people respond to it.

    Blackberry might not be able to entirely counter the desire for access to Apps (most of which are worthless), but it isn't all there is to Mobile Computing, and people CAN be shown that this is the case. Now, they DO want their headlining apps, and I believe this CAN be done (even if it costs significant money). THEN you can move forward, and your Ecosystem WILL come along.

    You don't seem to be taking into account that people literally don't think that Blackberry even makes phones, and I think it would take WAY less than a billion dollars a year to get the message out that isn't true.

    KAM
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-23-15 01:06 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    @Kam,

    I simply disagree with your analysis.

    Microsoft is spending money that BlackBerry can only dream about on wooing developers and big name apps. They are having only low to moderate success, and are now working on an Android solution too.

    In any event, the BB10 ship has sailed and there is little point in discussing it further.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    dusanvn likes this.
    09-23-15 01:09 PM
  3. KAM1138's Avatar
    Advertising doesn't mean anything these days with the sheepish culture and media we have now. The amazon fire phone was heavily advertised. The facebook phone was heavily advertised and they were both complete failures who disappeared from the market in no time. The fact that bb10 was actually a good product is what kept it from the same instant fate as those phones. Most of the advertising these days is free and comes from the media. If all they mention is apple then that's something you have no control over. The media didn't use to have that kind of control so advertising did use to matter.

    But it's sad how many people seem to want less competition these days.

    Posted via CB10
    Well, you are correct that the Media plays a big part, and that they've damaged BlackBerry with inaccurate reporting is undeniable.

    How much would it cost to buy them off? Let's not pretend that isn't done. Maybe it takes buying a billion dollars of Ads from media to turn them around.

    All of these arguments fall short as I see it, because Samsung and Apple somehow seem to make things work, and it IS NOT (I'll repeat that 1000 times) because BB10 sucks or is inferior technology. Apple and Samsung are OVERCOMING the fact that their Operating systems are inferior, or at least keeping people ignorant of other offerings.

    I'm not buying into the conventional wisdom that things MUST be a certain way. Wrong--it takes someone with an innovative mind to overcome problems, and honestly, to identify them correctly. Mr. Chen doesn't seem to be that person.

    KAM
    dusanvn and chopachain like this.
    09-23-15 01:11 PM
  4. conite's Avatar
    According to Conite that would have been 3 times what Samsung or Apple spends. So, no, I really don't think I do.

    KAM
    I said BlackBerry's total cash reserve is $3 billion. Apple and Samsung spend a third of that entire reserve each and every year, year after year.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    09-23-15 01:11 PM
  5. KAM1138's Avatar
    @Kam,

    I simply disagree with your analysis.

    Microsoft is spending money that BlackBerry can only dream about on wooing developers and big name apps. They are having only low to moderate success, and are now working on an Android solution too.

    In any event, the BB10 ship has sailed and there is little point in discussing it further.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    Ok, fair enough. But I'll just ask that you remember this conversation when offering an Android phone without addressing these other issues fails to turn BlackBerry around, WHILE losing (throwing away) BB10 (at least future development).

    The BB10 ship has sailed, because BlackBerry the company failed. Android being loaded on a phone won't change that, and I see little else they've done to correct other failures in their approach.

    The "android solution" isn't working for many companies that already do offer Android phones--it is NOT the answer in itself. I'd like to say that will be proven, but it already is--with pretty much Everyone except Samsung and maybe LG.

    We'll be back here in a year still hoping that somehow repeating the same mistakes will just happen to turn things around.

    I hope I'm wrong, and I'll happily admit it if I am.

    KAM
    Allanon89 and dusanvn like this.
    09-23-15 01:18 PM
  6. alternator77's Avatar
    With samsung doing away with expandable storage there is a great opportunity for BlackBerry to make some headway. Also they've been in the physical handset business longer than a lot of the other OEM's out there except Maybe sony.
    He other thing you have to consider is this form factor. It allows old BlackBerry users who want a qwerty but the screen and benefits of a full touch to have their cake and eat it too. And those looking for something different yet familiar will have just that.
    I wouldn't be suprised if next year samsung releases a galaxy phone with expandable storage.

    Posted via CB10
    09-23-15 01:18 PM
  7. KAM1138's Avatar
    In my opinion, BlackBerry could have spent all of its $3 billion on advertising, and it wouldn't have accomplished a single thing if what they were peddling had no ecosystem.
    You mentioned the hypothetical of spending all of that $3 Billion.

    BlackBerry would not have to spend a Billion a year to get out of the basement they are in, where people literally think that they don't make phones, or that they aren't even in business.

    Advertising is a business cost, and if they don't want to make that investment, then expect similar results

    KAM
    09-23-15 01:19 PM
  8. Dat Gui's Avatar
    Oh wise man from the future, can you tell me - will BlackBerry's trip down with Android be as fast and brutally painful as their trip down with BB10 was?

    Can you name a single smartphone manufacture who has lost billions of dollars because of Android?

    I think we can all name at least one smartphone maker who has lost billions thanks to their decision to create and manufacture BB10 and the hardware that runs it.

    So meh, I can't see how things could get any worse. BB10 is, was, and always has been a complete commercial failure. They didn't make a cent of profit off of BB10. It was a black hole where BlackBerry's money went in and nothing came out. Popping out more BB10 devices won't change that.

    BB10 had its chance to save BlackBerry and it only made things worse for them. Let's see how they do with Android now. It might be a huge success or it might be a huge failure. No one knows for sure yet, but I for one am very excited to see how it plays out.
    Sony, HTC, do I need to continue unless you're samsung or some Chinese manufacturer, your phone is not going to suceed. Is bb10 the answer probably not, but android isn't either.
    lift and MikeX74 like this.
    09-23-15 01:22 PM
  9. ayngling's Avatar
    that would have been 3 times what Samsung or Apple spends. So, no, I really don't think I do.
    You do. You want to spend their entire cash reserve on a marketing budget. Marketing is so incredibly expensive.

    Admittedly I might be a bit influenced by the fact that my startup ( Waitress ) took in about 1.5M USD about two years ago, and I cry every night seeing all that money being spent. I agree, it takes money to make money, but trust me, marketing is really, really expensive.
    09-23-15 01:24 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    You mentioned the hypothetical of spending all of that $3 Billion.

    BlackBerry would not have to spend a Billion a year to get out of the basement they are in, where people literally think that they don't make phones, or that they aren't even in business.

    Advertising is a business cost, and if they don't want to make that investment, then expect similar results

    KAM
    We're going in circles.

    I will end this by reminding you that both Microsoft and Google refused to provide their apps due to competitive reasons, and Netflix, Instagram, Snapchat, and countless others refused to provide their existing, working apps, at any price.

    No ecosystem = no interest = advertising dollars wasted.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    ayngling, Witmen, cbvinh and 1 others like this.
    09-23-15 01:32 PM
  11. lnichols's Avatar
    Android is going to fix it all OP! All those other Android OEM's that are failing don't have that PKB that existing Android users are willing to kill each other over to get on an Android device. It will be mass pandemonium in the carrier stores as these Android users storm the carrier stores on launch day looking for their Android PKB device. Every single BB10 user will be switching too. None of them liked Bb10, they will buy this device and not abandon BlackBerry. And those BBOS holdouts, they are buying it too because Android will give them BIS features because Android is awesome and will solve every single issue that BlackBerry has been dealing with for years. BlackBerry will be able to make the Android phones better and cheaper than the Android OEM's that are failing because glorious Chairman Chen is a genius and when he isn't turning water into wine, he is personally on the phone assembly line reducing the costs of the device. See OP, you just don't get the magic that is Google and Chen and how this magic will make them successful where more experienced and well funded players fail!

    Posted via Z30
    lift, Allanon89, dusanvn and 1 others like this.
    09-23-15 01:34 PM
  12. KAM1138's Avatar
    You do. You want to spend their entire cash reserve on a marketing budget. Marketing is so incredibly expensive.

    Admittedly I might be a bit influenced by the fact that my startup ( Waitress ) took in about 1.5M USD about two years ago, and I cry every night seeing all that money being spent. I agree, it takes money to make money, but trust me, marketing is really, really expensive.
    I wasn't actually recommending that they spend $3 billion on advertising. That was conite's hypothetical (hyperbole). If they DID spend $3 Billion on advertising (again not recommending that) it would make an impact. That's in the arena of what Presidential elections spent (each). I'm pretty sure you can sell some phones with that sort of advertising (hypothetically).

    I'm sure it is expensive. It doesn't have to be $1 billion per year expensive like HUGE companies (Samsung and Apple) might spend.

    The Superbowl ad (SUPERBOWL) cost $4 million reportedly. Now that sucked, but I'm pretty sure you can do better.

    KAM
    09-23-15 01:38 PM
  13. buwee's Avatar
    Samsung is doing "secure Android" for years.
    Didn't help.
    Market share of Samsung is going down.

    Only sales of cheap phones are going up.
    No one trusts Samsung "security" is one reason why it didn't work for them LOL
    Grabber5.0 likes this.
    09-23-15 01:40 PM
  14. conite's Avatar
    Android is going to fix it all OP! All those other Android OEM's that are failing don't have that PKB that existing Android users are willing to kill each other over to get on an Android device. It will be mass pandemonium in the carrier stores as these Android users storm the carrier stores on launch day looking for their Android PKB device. Every single BB10 user will be switching too. None of them liked Bb10, they will buy this device and not abandon BlackBerry. And those BBOS holdouts, they are buying it too because Android will give them BIS features because Android is awesome and will solve every single issue that BlackBerry has been dealing with for years. BlackBerry will be able to make the Android phones better and cheaper than the Android OEM's that are failing because glorious Chairman Chen is a genius and when he isn't turning water into wine, he is personally on the phone assembly line reducing the costs of the device. See OP, you just don't get the magic that is Google and Chen and how this magic will make them successful where more experienced and well funded players fail!

    Posted via Z30
    Drama aside, I'm just hoping for a fair shot at breaking even.

    Your pessimism may well prove correct, but I see no other reasonable course of action as of today.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    09-23-15 01:41 PM
  15. ayngling's Avatar
    If they DID spend $3 Billion on advertising (again not recommending that) it would make an impact. That's in the arena of what Presidential elections spent (each). I'm pretty sure you can sell some phones with that sort of advertising (hypothetically).

    I'm sure it is expensive. It doesn't have to be $1 billion per year expensive like HUGE companies (Samsung and Apple) might spend.
    I know it sounds like a lot of money, but you burn through it fast, especially when you are trying to convince people to buy something they already think is not for them. Samsung and Apple spend this money, year after year, on teasing people with a new product they already think they need.

    I think such a campaign by BlackBerry would have a much smaller effect than you think.

    The Superbowl ad (SUPERBOWL) cost $4 million reportedly. Now that sucked, but I'm pretty sure you can do better.
    On a sidenote, this is probably one of the better places to advertise, even with the high cost (if you can afford it). Normally you have people turning down the volume at every break, looking at their cellphones etc. At the superbowl, everyone is watching.
    09-23-15 01:48 PM
  16. KAM1138's Avatar
    I will end this by reminding you that both Microsoft and Google refused to provide their apps due to competitive reasons, and Netflix, Instagram, Snapchat, and countless others refused to provide their existing, working apps, at any price.

    No ecosystem = no interest = advertising dollars wasted.
    In terms of instagram, netflix, snapchat. Really? Are you SURE "at any price." How about a Billion dollars? I'm not saying it was offered, but everyone has a price, so let's not get to much into hyperbole.

    Further--again as I said, I don't know much about instagram, but I'm pretty sure I've heard of people using instagram on their Blackberry phones. If so, then the fact that INSTAGRAM itself refuses to play ball might not be the end all you're making it out to be. Am I remembering incorrectly?

    "Advertising dollars wasted" --no, that is not a 1:1 effect at all. "ecosystem" is not the potential Blackberry customers ONLY need or goal. That's PART of it that perhaps many people have as a default mindset BECAUSE no one is educating them (via marketing) otherwise. This is an overly simplistic argument.

    No advertising = (leads to) no customers = no company. Ecosystem or not (admittedly also a bit simplified).

    Its a circular relationship, and you seem to be denying that this is the case, and arguing that it is one direction, despite the fact that EVERYONE had to build an ecosystem.

    Access to the Amazon App Store improved the Ecosystem (not ideally, but it did). What was the result? Was there a matching bump in customers, and sales?

    AND...again, I don't use these things, but can't you access Instagram, Snapchat, etc via the Websites that BB10 is fully capable of running?

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 09-23-15 at 02:07 PM.
    09-23-15 01:51 PM
  17. 6stringriffs's Avatar
    http://www.infoworld.com/article/288...berry-fan.html

    Delusion No. 1: BlackBerry's problem is a marketing failure

    One delusion is that BlackBerry's products are amazingly attractive, but bad marketing is hiding that fact from the world. With good marketing, everyone will abandon their iPhones and Android smartphones for a BlackBerry. After all, that's what these users did.

    Marketing can get people to consider a product and reinforce that you made the right choice earlier (so you buy again). But marketing can't make people buy something they don't want.

    Contrary to claims by desperate fanboys, people aren't buying iPhones because they are "iSheep" seduced by marketing for "overpriced" smartphones. In fact, outside the United States and Japan, people are buying Android smartphones, whose prices range from cheap to iPhone-level. Are those people "aSheep"? (For the record, when it comes to smartphones, in the United States, it's basically half iPhone and half Android.)

    Those people are also not buying an iPhone or Android device once, then seeing the error of their ways. No, they buy them again and again, with a minuscule number returning to BlackBerry. Marketing won't trump such personal experience and the word of mouth that results.

    Yes, BlackBerry 10 has compelling capabilities, but not enough to compete with iOS, Android, or even Windows Phone.
    09-23-15 01:52 PM
  18. KAM1138's Avatar
    Android is going to fix it all OP! All those other Android OEM's that are failing don't have that PKB that existing Android users are willing to kill each other over to get on an Android device. It will be mass pandemonium in the carrier stores as these Android users storm the carrier stores on launch day looking for their Android PKB device. Every single BB10 user will be switching too. None of them liked Bb10, they will buy this device and not abandon BlackBerry. And those BBOS holdouts, they are buying it too because Android will give them BIS features because Android is awesome and will solve every single issue that BlackBerry has been dealing with for years. BlackBerry will be able to make the Android phones better and cheaper than the Android OEM's that are failing because glorious Chairman Chen is a genius and when he isn't turning water into wine, he is personally on the phone assembly line reducing the costs of the device. See OP, you just don't get the magic that is Google and Chen and how this magic will make them successful where more experienced and well funded players fail!

    Posted via Z30
    Yep, Magic. You're right--I forgot all about that.

    KAM
    09-23-15 01:52 PM
  19. KAM1138's Avatar
    The dangerous delusions of the BlackBerry fan | InfoWorld

    1) Delusion No. 1: BlackBerry's problem is a marketing failure

    2) Marketing won't trump such personal experience and the word of mouth that results.
    First quoted sentence: Right, it is just ONE failure--an important one.

    But it's hilarious that "Blackberry" fanboys is an accusation being thrown, while denying that iOS is fueled by fanboys (and girls, let's be PC here). That's quite a contradictory claim.

    And clearly, you've not encountered "fanboys" of any sort if you're denying that they exist--in large numbers, and that this drives them. Talk about denial.

    2) So, given that there are vast amount of "personal experience" and "word of mouth" available for Android (Samsung mostly) and Apple, that they won't be spending any of the billion dollars a year (that conite mentions). Why would they need to spend all those pesky marketing dollars if it simply doesn't work, and is trumped by "personal experience" and "word of mouth."

    You're greatly overstating things. Those things have SOME effect, and so does marketing. Deny that all you want, but billions of dollars spent pretty much proves you wrong.

    KAM
    Allanon89 likes this.
    09-23-15 02:01 PM
  20. LuxuryTouringZone's Avatar
    I honestly don't know how Blackberry will do as an Android vendor, but I just think they need to make more BB10 phones based on customer feedback.
    09-23-15 02:02 PM
  21. KAM1138's Avatar
    I know it sounds like a lot of money, but you burn through it fast, especially when you are trying to convince people to buy something they already think is not for them. Samsung and Apple spend this money, year after year, on teasing people with a new product they already think they need.

    I think such a campaign by BlackBerry would have a much smaller effect than you think.



    On a sidenote, this is probably one of the better places to advertise, even with the high cost (if you can afford it). Normally you have people turning down the volume at every break, looking at their cellphones etc. At the superbowl, everyone is watching.
    Well, clearly many companies think that spending on Superbowl Ads is a good choice. So I can't argue that. However, I'm not sure that a one-time large expenditure is the best choice for a consumer base who buys a product at specific intervals (often)--like Phones. If they are buying a phone in September (because their contract is up or phone breaks, etc), then a Superbowl ad in January isn't likely the best way to advertise to them.

    In Terms of "effect." Well, I think you can agree that the "effect" their efforts are having right now aren't working, so it is long past due to try something different.

    KAM
    09-23-15 02:05 PM
  22. ayngling's Avatar
    I'm not sure that a one-time large expenditure is the best choice for a consumer base who buys a product at specific intervals (often)--like Phones. If they are buying a phone in September (because their contract is up or phone breaks, etc), then a Superbowl ad in January isn't likely the best way to advertise to them.
    They weren't trying to get people to upgrade their phones the same day, they were trying to convince people that BlackBerry was not dead (i.e. to rebuild their brand).

    Anyways, I'll leave this discussion, we're going nowhere. I think the expensive campaign you are touting would have a much smaller effect than you think.
    09-23-15 02:09 PM
  23. Witmen's Avatar
    Sony, HTC, do I need to continue unless you're samsung or some Chinese manufacturer, your phone is not going to suceed. Is bb10 the answer probably not, but android isn't either.
    So you think that Sony and HTC have lost more money than they have made with Android? If that were the case, why have the spent years making Android devices? Are they a nonprofit like BlackBerry is?

    Perhaps I should have been more clear. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 quarters where they lost money. I'm talking about where the figures all totalled up show that they never made a single cent of profit and instead lost billions. That is precisely what happened with BlackBerry and BB10.

    I don't know about Sony (I don't follow that company closely at all), but HTC has certainly made more money with Android than they have lost.

    A couple bad quarters isn't necessarily enough to wipe out years worth of good quarters.
    09-23-15 02:15 PM
  24. KAM1138's Avatar
    They weren't trying to get people to upgrade their phones the same day, they were trying to convince people that BlackBerry was not dead (i.e. to rebuild their brand).

    Anyways, I'll leave this discussion, we're going nowhere. I think the expensive campaign you are touting would have a much smaller effect than you think.
    I don't think you rebuild a brand with one big splash. And for the record, marketing is not JUST advertising. Crackberry is here as basically a free resource, and they've shared nothing. Blackberry can't even effectively communicate with its dedicated fans, and is apparently intent on dividing us, and casting some of us (BB10 Fans) into an eventual dead end.

    Well, thanks for the pleasant conversation, even if we disagree. I appreciate it.

    Bottom line, Blackberry is going to have to do a LOT more than simply offer an Android phone to turn things around. It's going to take money spent on madvertising, ecosystem, and things that don't cost much money like speaking openly and honestly with its customers.

    KAM
    09-23-15 02:19 PM
  25. LuvULongTime's Avatar
    In my opinion, BlackBerry could have spent all of its $3 billion on advertising, and it wouldn't have accomplished a single thing if what they were peddling had no ecosystem.

    They were already out of the game before BB10 was even launched, because they were two years too late.

    I can't predict how the Android device will do, but I see little alternative.

    Carrier support is crucial to volume sales. Waterloo can produce adds as much as they like, but you need the carriers to flog the devices. For the first time in ages, the carriers actually seem interested. Android sites are interested. Tech bloggers are interested.

    I'm hoping for the best.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639
    This device is most likely a transitional device for them anyway. The end game for Blackberry is software and services with an eventual (hopeful) increase and revenues, and thus increase in share price. With the end game being a final sell off of the company so that Prem can get his money back.
    09-23-15 02:55 PM
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