[Tre Lawrence]

Let's be fair...it's just another slab with a (likely expensive) slider, AND some veil of BB-ishness put on it (probably).

On a separate note.

Can I just say again that it is terribly ironic that a company that claims it is a "software company" is looking to dump the CENTRAL piece of software it spent tons of time and money developing (BB10), in order to adopt a third-party OS.

Stay tuned for news from Microsoft announcing that they are refocusing on Software by cancelling any further versions of Windows.

I wish I could laugh at the absurdity of it all.
KAM

Tragic, yes, but it happens all the time. BBRY moved on from BBOS. MSFT has switched directions several times.
Android made huge changes to Android which were once seen as foolish.

The day Windows brings negative returns to MSFT (with no reprieve in sight) is the day MSFT dumps Windows. Companies would be derelict in refusing to change paths.

Point being, companies will ditch dead weight, and it seems as though BBRY has determined that BB10 is dead weight.

Now, again, I am not sure Android is the salve we hope it is, but I do understand the theory that it can't be a worse proposition for BBRY than BB10 currently is.

[muciumbe]

The fact that I don't agree doesn't mean I'm "ignoring, forgetting, or not realising".

My opinion is that everything BlackBerry did do, or could have done with the launch of BB10 was just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It was doomed to failure before release. It was worth the shot, but the fact that developers were not interested despite everything BlackBerry attempted sealed the deal well before launch.

Free porting of apps, cash incentives, and offers of free support fell on deaf ears. The ecosystem war was already lost.

Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639

In business like in life some lost trains never come back or some do come back in other form. Maybe Venice can help Blackberry, time will tell but again is late. Let's hope for the best. Anyway, Blackberry still exist and Palm, Nokia are history.

Posted via Blackberry Passport

[Allanon89]

Tragic, yes, but it happens all the time. BBRY moved on from BBOS. MSFT has switched directions several times.
Android made huge changes to Android which were once seen as foolish.

The day Windows brings negative returns to MSFT (with no reprieve in sight) is the day MSFT dumps Windows. Companies would be derelict in refusing to change paths.

I think you're missing the point. I think the OP wanted to highlight the irony embedded into the fact that becoming an Android OEM and dumping their best known *software* assets is a quite weird way of "turning into a *software* company".

No, it's not something tragic that happens all the times. Last time it happened to Nokia as a mobile company and now that Nokia is no more.
And no, it's not a focus shift �-la-MSFT. MSFT focus shifts are strongly linked to their inability to successfully leverage their dominant position in the market. And BTW MSFT is a good example of a company totally screwing up every acquisition. So even though MSFT has switched directions several times, it's not a proof that running around like a headless chicken can benefit a company. Sure Nadella is doing what seems to be necessary to keep MSFT alive - basically cutting employees and downsizing.

Anyway, what BB is doing is going the Nokia D&S route, but in a more radical way, with all due difference.
Slash platform and OS development, turn into an OEM while outsourcing production. From being a star system to being an asteroid. I think most of what it takes to get rid of the device business has been done.
So next step for BB is going Nokia Oy.


Sure, it's life, we need to accept it, it's unavoidable and necessary. Nothing else could have ever been done. BB10 was doomed from the start. Marketing couldn't have done anything. Lack of interest killed it. FACTS are immutable. Back when BB was on top things were bound to change and they rested on their laurels failing to foresee the future, while now that AAPL and GOOG are on top, nothing's ever gonna change anymore. No point in trying.

"Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be completely discarded, as it has no value for us. Your culture will disappear to service us. Resistance is futile."

Goodbye BB10, you were too young and had too many enemies even among the so called friends.

[cbvinh]

Is this the Throwback Thursday thread? OP raises up a bunch of "guaranteed fix it" ideas that's been thought of and discussed many, many times over the last four years. The only thing we know is whatever the idea is, it wasn't implemented /enough/ or in the /right way/, so it would work, just try it and witness the impending success...

[jojo beaconsfield]

Throwing in the towel after not even 3 years is pretty crappy,I really am disapointed,I thought maybe they could do something innovative and make a comeback,totally Canadian,Oh well...

[KAM1138]

LOL @ strawman. I don't think you said anything, I didn't even base anything I wrote on what you wrote. Long as I have been in these forums, I have no problem quoting folks directly.

My comment was directed to a vocal minority who actually seem to believe that all it would take to solve BBRY's issues is $3 Billion.

Well, what you said was: "What you have posted goes against a serious deficit in reasoning held by some: that marketing cures all, and that the reason other platforms succeed is, uh, "brainwashing" (LOL).

So, your are arguing against a claim--that "marketing cures all." I realize you might not have been responding to me directly, which is fine, but who forwarded the argument that "marketing cures all?" If not one said that, then you're engaging a straw man, because that's what a straw man is. Perhaps someone DID actually make that overstatement, so if so, I'm asking who? Or perhaps you were just referring to a general tendency of people to oversimplify.

Now, back to my opening gambit: Android isn't a cure all IMHO. I am not convinced the hardware keyboard will be that much of a draw, but I have been wrong before. If ecosystem is a major concern -- and I believe that it is -- then BlackBerry is, in theory, automatically in a better position than it is currently.

By diversity, I mean raw app availability in easy-to-access form. This means the big name apps PLUS those for local banks, supermarkets, pharmacies, libraries school systems, etc. That is what proponents of the "spend a billion to get apps" fail to take into account. Having Netflix ix cool, but every individual has a different set of top 10 apps. That is what iOS and Android users enjoy, and something not even MSFT can buy.

Developers attract developers.

BlackBerry horrible at marketing? Absolutely, IMHO. Creating mindshare is something it has struggled with for quite some time. Could marketing help? I think so. Is it BBRY's biggest problem? Not even close, and I think JC understands this. I read somewhere that in his last gig, he upped the ad spending to help increase the company's profile.

SO what is it that JC and the rest of the board (which includes major hitters from distinguished business schools that have run investment corporations and advertising behemoths like VZW) seem to understand that some folks don't? That to advertise, one first needs a compelling product. I am guessing that advertising BB10 (which BBRY did heavily at first, BTW, and weren't even able to get legacy BBOS folks to switch over) is a waste of time without underlying third-party support.

The rest of this, I really don't disagree with, although perhaps to varying degrees of agreement.
One point I disagree on is that BlackBerry doesn't have a compelling product. They do, and its called BB10. It is an excellent product.
I think this is a point that's getting a bit lost in the shuffle here. They've failed to make BB10 a SUCCESSFUL (financially) product, and they've not made a compelling CASE for BB10, but the product itself is not to blame.

Perhaps you think differently, that BB10 is not a good product. Is that the case?

Honestly, I don't care one bit about the pedigree of people running the company. That is meaningless compared to what they actually accomplish, and that is very little from where I stand. Maybe there are reasons, so I don't want to paint them unfairly, but we are where we are. Heins was booted for failure, and rightfully so, and Chen is right there with him (my opinion).

The point I will agree on is that they do need to improve their third party support (something Chen has stated), but this is an ongoing process. They can't hope to do that in one fell swoop without supporting and promoting their products along the way. I think they're failing to do that.

Silence from a position of weakness is NOT a good marketing strategy. AGAIN, I feel the need to state that ADVERTISING is not the whole of marketing--that's another line that seems to be blurred. Spending a billion dollars on Advertising "just because" isn't a strategy, or a good idea.

KAM

[KAM1138]

I don't know that anyone is arguing with the excerpt you quoted. It makes sense to anyone.

For a for-profit entity though, failure is failure. It helps to know why, but that doesn't really deaden the sting so much.

That post also underscores an important point: the beauty or fluidity of an OS means little; I am sure WebOS fans would concur. In the end, BB10's biggest enemy was time. It arrived a tad too late, and was published by a company with relatively small resources.

Well, perhaps I've wandered into a bit of a strawman myself, but when people are stating that BlackBerry does not have a Compelling product, then it makes me think that they DON'T understand that BB10 IS an excellent product. Maybe that's not the intent.

You're right--failure is failure, no denying that.

Well, if your argument is that the "beauty/fluidity" of a OS means little (can be ignored for other things)...well, yeah--talk about a stinging truth. As a webOS (former) user and fan, who misses it to this day, I'm on the precipice of being twice bitten, but two companies who have been incapable of managing a GREAT product.

I don't think webOS was too late itself. That was pretty early in modern smart phones, and things were not as cemented as today. I think Verizon (to my recollection) screwed them, which essentially pushed Android to the front and hobbled webOS and they never recovered. Palm was relatively weak compared to HP, but even that didn't work out. Another fine example of short-sighted thinking and inability to capitalize on a great product. There are certainly some lessons that SHOULD have been learned from that.

KAM

[lnichols]

Throwing in the towel after not even 3 years is pretty crappy,I really am disapointed,I thought maybe they could do something innovative and make a comeback,totally Canadian,Oh well...

The towel was thrown in 9 months after launch, in October/November 2013 when Chairman Chen took over. He clearly started the Android project then, and clearly put the bare minimum effort into Bb10 until this Android solution was ready. They needed to go full steam ahead when 10.2.1 launched with advertising and brand rehab, but instead decided to continue with the throw devices over the wall and hope they sell enough to get to this Android debacle.

Posted via Z30

[KAM1138]

Tragic, yes, but it happens all the time. BBRY moved on from BBOS. MSFT has switched directions several times.
Android made huge changes to Android which were once seen as foolish.

The day Windows brings negative returns to MSFT (with no reprieve in sight) is the day MSFT dumps Windows. Companies would be derelict in refusing to change paths.

Point being, companies will ditch dead weight, and it seems as though BBRY has determined that BB10 is dead weight.

Now, again, I am not sure Android is the salve we hope it is, but I do understand the theory that it can't be a worse proposition for BBRY than BB10 currently is.

Lost a whole post there.

Crux of it. I totally disagree with the short-sighted (in my opinion) idiotic determination that BB10 is "dead weight." That's not to say that they didn't need to do MANY things to get the company where it needed to be, but I think they've taken the bright spot, and made it the scapegoat for incompetence in leadership, and execution.

Oh, that BB10...thank goodness we're getting rid of that piece of crap, now everything will be brighter. Sarcasm of course.

KAM

[KAM1138]

The towel was thrown in 9 months after launch, in October/November 2013 when Chairman Chen took over. He clearly started the Android project then, and clearly put the bare minimum effort into Bb10 until this Android solution was ready. They needed to go full steam ahead when 10.2.1 launched with advertising and brand rehab, but instead decided to continue with the throw devices over the wall and hope they sell enough to get to this Android debacle.

Posted via Z30

Yes, it doesn't seem they made any real effort to put the work into BB10. Instead I think they're taking a path destined to fail, and guaranteed to obliterate Blackberry as its own true phone entity (using someone else's OS). REALLY short-sighted I think.
I guess if you're a bean-counter it makes total sense...but not if you're a company that makes an actual product.

KAM

[Tre Lawrence]

Well, perhaps I've wandered into a bit of a strawman myself, but when people are stating that BlackBerry does not have a Compelling product, then it makes me think that they DON'T understand that BB10 IS an excellent product. Maybe that's not the intent.

You're right--failure is failure, no denying that.

Well, if your argument is that the "beauty/fluidity" of a OS means little (can be ignored for other things)...well, yeah--talk about a stinging truth. As a webOS (former) user and fan, who misses it to this day, I'm on the precipice of being twice bitten, but two companies who have been incapable of managing a GREAT product.

I don't think webOS was too late itself. That was pretty early in modern smart phones, and things were not as cemented as today. I think Verizon (to my recollection) screwed them, which essentially pushed Android to the front and hobbled webOS and they never recovered. Palm was relatively weak compared to HP, but even that didn't work out. Another fine example of short-sighted thinking and inability to capitalize on a great product. There are certainly some lessons that SHOULD have been learned from that.

KAM

Fair points.

To clarify, I believe BB10 was hamstrung from the beginning for ONLY one reason: apps. I honestly believe that is could have made a serious dent if it was on an equal playing field with the big boys. Not having an ecosystem pretty much killed it.

When I state it isn't a compelling product, I am referring to the majority of the smartphone public that might have a different definition of "compelling" than you or I.

But yes, I seem some parallels with how webOS was mismanaged, though I still think BB10 would have been a bit better off had it arrived 2 or 3 years earlier.

[Tre Lawrence]

Lost a whole post there.

Crux of it. I totally disagree with the short-sighted (in my opinion) idiotic determination that BB10 is "dead weight." That's not to say that they didn't need to do MANY things to get the company where it needed to be, but I think they've taken the bright spot, and made it the scapegoat for incompetence in leadership, and execution.

Oh, that BB10...thank goodness we're getting rid of that piece of crap, now everything will be brighter. Sarcasm of course.

KAM

Even now, I cannot say I am convinced that the theorized abandonment of BB10 is the right course. Admittedly, there is a bit of nostalgia in there, but hey.

I do see how a dispassionate observer might advise BlackBerry to ditch it. It's all in the performance. The powers that be don't want to lose their shirts continually.

[Tre Lawrence]

I think you're missing the point. I think the OP wanted to highlight the irony embedded into the fact that becoming an Android OEM and dumping their best known *software* assets is a quite weird way of "turning into a *software* company".

What if that "best known software" is also the reason most cited for its current dismal state?

[Going The Distance]

@ Kam

Why are this weekends lottery numbers since you know the future?

Posted via CB10

[cbvinh]

The towel was thrown in 9 months after launch, in October/November 2013 when Chairman Chen took over. He clearly started the Android project then, and clearly put the bare minimum effort into Bb10 until this Android solution was ready. They needed to go full steam ahead when 10.2.1 launched with advertising and brand rehab, but instead decided to continue with the throw devices over the wall and hope they sell enough to get to this Android debacle.

This could be the case, but he did let existing projects come to fruition, which many other new CEO's would immediately kill.

Z3 - probably a remnant of a Heins deal made with Foxconn
Passport - probably already in development and hinted by Heins
Classic - product of Chen, from listening to his CEO's buddies, who didn't really know what IT was doing
Leap - continuation of Z3 line, no huge amount of R&D required

My guess is the Android project ramped up when the Classic failed to gain from existing BBOS users. I don't think he expected the Passport to change sales, as all indications said that existing BBOS users were the mid to low end BlackBerry users. The higher end users already moved to BB10.

10.3.x - continued development for Classic and Passport, which only made sense if BB10 sales stabilized and increased

Chen isn't making the same mistake as Elop. Elop killed Symbian and MeeGo prior to having something viable to sell with Microsoft. Elop probably felt comfortable doing this because Microsoft was subsidizing Nokia's business. Chen is switching to the only dominant player he can, Android. iOS, obviously, isn't an option. In the long run, for BlackBerry to be a software services company, it doesn't matter that the phones/devices are built on BB10 and/or Android. The software has to work on both anyway.

[KAM1138]

@ Kam

Why are this weekends lottery numbers since you know the future?

Posted via CB10

I don't know "WHY" the lottery numbers are, just that they are.

Come on back in a year or so and gloat about how wrong I was...I'll put it on my calendar. I'll stop by right after I take a spin around the new ice rink being opened up in Hell.

Sorry I can't talk more--I gotta go check out all the news about the new "PRIV"

So it begins...
KAM

[theboogeyman]

Oh wise man from the future, can you tell me - will BlackBerry's trip down with Android be as fast and brutally painful as their trip down with BB10 was?

Can you name a single smartphone manufacture who has lost billions of dollars because of Android?

I think we can all name at least one smartphone maker who has lost billions thanks to their decision to create and manufacture BB10 and the hardware that runs it.

So meh, I can't see how things could get any worse. BB10 is, was, and always has been a complete commercial failure. They didn't make a cent of profit off of BB10. It was a black hole where BlackBerry's money went in and nothing came out. Popping out more BB10 devices won't change that.

BB10 had its chance to save BlackBerry and it only made things worse for them. Let's see how they do with Android now. It might be a huge success or it might be a huge failure. No one knows for sure yet, but I for one am very excited to see how it plays out.

Can you name an oem that has made billions off Android other than Samsung? Not a single one

[theboogeyman]

In my opinion, BlackBerry could have spent all of its $3 billion on advertising, and it wouldn't have accomplished a single thing if what they were peddling had no ecosystem.

They were already out of the game before BB10 was even launched, because they were two years too late.

I can't predict how the Android device will do, but I see little alternative.

Carrier support is crucial to volume sales. Waterloo can produce adds as much as they like, but you need the carriers to flog the devices. For the first time in ages, the carriers actually seem interested. Android sites are interested. Tech bloggers are interested.

I'm hoping for the best.

Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639

I see the results with the Passport and Classic which they were embraced by Carriers...if you think users that enter stores will prefer a Blackberry over a Sammy or Apple, you are sadly clueless

[theboogeyman]

The towel was thrown in 9 months after launch, in October/November 2013 when Chairman Chen took over. He clearly started the Android project then, and clearly put the bare minimum effort into Bb10 until this Android solution was ready. They needed to go full steam ahead when 10.2.1 launched with advertising and brand rehab, but instead decided to continue with the throw devices over the wall and hope they sell enough to get to this Android debacle.

Posted via Z30

If we follow history alone, Blackberry will abandon BB10 and probably even Android shortly after release...how can anyone trust this company anymore?

[jmr1015]

All this circular repetitive argument BS aside...

All the Slider has to do to justify its existence, is sell better than BB10 has.

That's it. And that is a very low bar, and quite attainable. Even with a "flop" unsuccessful Android device that might struggle to compete in a crowded market where other OEMs are fighting to maintain profitability... The Venice doesn't have to beat other Android OEMs. The Venice doesn't have to be wildly successful or profitable. It just has to do better than the BB10 devices have, and it will have been the right move for BBRY. Because quarter after quarter after quarter has proven, BB10 is a sinking ship.

[jmr1015]

Can you name an oem that has made billions off Android other than Samsung? Not a single one

Define "made billions off Android"

In revenue? In profit? Per quarter? Per year? Total, since entering the Android market?

[southlander]

Hmmm, BECAUSE of BB10? Or do you mean, lack of app support for BB10.

Because of the brand. The tech pod-casters laugh every time I hear them mention BB10. They call it BlackBerry's failed OS. Same thing anywhere you go. Cell carrier stores. Everywhere, this sentiment pervades for whatever reasons. Windows ME, Windows Vista, Windows 8 etc. are proof that once everyone dumps on an OS, it becomes "bad" even though it's not (necessarily).

I use both Android and BlackBerry 10. I don't care what they use. I just want them to not be the laughing stock of the mobile phone world anymore.

I say let them put out this phone and see. If it fails, then we all know Android was not the path -- at least not this late in the game. Better than watching BB10 continually diminish.

[Allanon89]

What if that "best known software" is also the reason most cited for its current dismal state?

1. Were that true, it wouldn't change a thing in the irony of it all.

2. Most cited != Main

3. And what if this does not account for the complexity of BB's condition at all?
I love how in some arguments BB10 becomes an abstract entity with no links whatsoever to BB itself that created it. A sort of doom spell cast by some external force. Timing was part of the problem due to external conditions, sure, but the rest of the strategy that has not brought BB10 to success is BB's own. I don't think BB10 itself is the greatest problem. It has/had its share of issues, but a great share of potential as well. Others have elaborated on this better than I can.


Anyway, as I said, when you concentrate on the present day everything looks immutable and it looks like there can be no alternative to the current relations of power. Actually things keep changing, so I hope the toxic duopoly in the mobile space can leave room for a more balanced race. Uniformity is boring.
B10 UX is/was well thought. I find it amazing that the only company really trying to break new grounds wrt basic interaction with the device is Apple. Nothing interesting or compelling on the Android side since the beginning, I think.

It all depends on your interests. I'm not a BB shareholder. I'm somewhat interested in the fate of the company just because I've got some emotional attachment to them due to their products in the mobile space. And I hope they can stay alive for workers and the economy of the Waterloo area as well.
But that's it. My interest is operating systems and I can't help but look at what's happening as loss of variety, knowledge, research, competition. Focus shifts happen all the times, but they're not always so meaningful.

[Allanon89]

Chen isn't making the same mistake as Elop. Elop killed Symbian and MeeGo prior to having something viable to sell with Microsoft. Elop probably felt comfortable doing this because Microsoft was subsidizing Nokia's business. Chen is switching to the only dominant player he can, Android. iOS, obviously, isn't an option.

I think your interpretation is balanced.
My only gripe is that since Chen arrived they only launched niche and/or low-end devices. Not a single attractive mainstream mid-to-high-end (nor high end) phone. I suppose every maker needs at least a halo device. Their halo device was the Passport - an interesting, bold concept, but one that never stood the chance of a widespread success due to its size and form factor. One cannot reasonably cater to such a small niche and expect sales to improve.
That's a reason why I believe they didn't try hard enough.

[lnichols]

If we follow history alone, Blackberry will abandon BB10 and probably even Android shortly after release...how can anyone trust this company anymore?

I don't and I'm done after 8 years. Chen's myopic focus on the share price and ignoring the device users is clear, and he won't change. I expect one Android device and that's it. This is to prove to people that BlackBerry can be on any OS.

Posted via Z30