[conite]

This device is most likely a transitional device for them anyway. The end game for Blackberry is software and services with an eventual (hopeful) increase and revenues, and thus increase in share price. With the end game being a final sell off of the company so that Prem can get his money back.

Well, the goal of every investor is to maximise his investment. I don't think BlackBerry is any different than any other company. If it eventually generates sufficient income, with good future prospects, it would generate more benefit than a straight sell off.

Assuming the goal is strictly to make the company into something of value, with the intent to sell in order to get the money out asap, the goals are not inconsistent with trying to make a good, stable company worth buying.

If the parts alone were worth buying, it would have happened already, so that doesn't worry me much.

Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639

[LuvULongTime]

Well, the goal of every investor is to maximise his investment. I don't think BlackBerry is any different than any other company. If it eventually generates sufficient income, with good future prospects, it would generate more benefit than a straight sell off.

Assuming the goal is strictly to make the company into something of value, with the intent to sell in order to get the money out asap, the goals are not inconsistent with trying to make a good, stable company worth buying.

If the parts alone were worth buying, it would have happened already, so that doesn't worry me much.

Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639

True. But I think the some parts alone were worth buying, it's just that BB was not willing to sell them separately. For some reason I don't see Prem as being in this for the long haul. He knows he is up against two behemoths in Apple and Google and probably wants to get out as quickly and unscathed as he can.

[Tre Lawrence]

In my opinion, BlackBerry could have spent all of its $3 billion on advertising, and it wouldn't have accomplished a single thing if what they were peddling had no ecosystem.

They were already out of the game before BB10 was even launched, because they were two years too late.

I can't predict how the Android device will do, but I see little alternative.

Carrier support is crucial to volume sales. Waterloo can produce adds as much as they like, but you need the carriers to flog the devices. For the first time in ages, the carriers actually seem interested. Android sites are interested. Tech bloggers are interested.

I'm hoping for the best.

Yep.

[lift]

BlackBerry only needs to sell enough devices to sustain a hardware business at breakeven. Anything after that is gravy.

So many android loving people here at CrackBerry have been saying this and it's getting silly. So, how many does BlackBerry have to sell to "break even"? For all you know they have spent a fortune on design, development and parts to get this done.
So why have some of the top tier manufacturers who have been making android devices for years having a hard time even getting to the break even point? Some of these manufacturers can get parts at a much lower cost than BlackBerry because they buy millions at a time. BlackBerry does not have that kind of buying power, so the slider will be very expensive to manufacture.
Now BlackBerry who is a virtually unknown name these days is going to just come out selling and have no problem making money. Really?
BlackBerry does not stand a chance in the android market and I wish they would have spent all the time, money and effort on other things besides the slider.

[Nick Spagnolo]

But very unique upon the others

Z10

[conite]

So, how many does BlackBerry have to sell to "break even"? .

We'll see. Hopefully whoever did the math on this is better than the one who did the math 3 years ago on BB10.

Standing here today, I still see no alternative strategy for the device business.

Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639

[Tre Lawrence]

The dangerous delusions of the BlackBerry fan | InfoWorld

Delusion No. 1: BlackBerry's problem is a marketing failure

One delusion is that BlackBerry's products are amazingly attractive, but bad marketing is hiding that fact from the world. With good marketing, everyone will abandon their iPhones and Android smartphones for a BlackBerry. After all, that's what these users did.

Marketing can get people to consider a product and reinforce that you made the right choice earlier (so you buy again). But marketing can't make people buy something they don't want.

Contrary to claims by desperate fanboys, people aren't buying iPhones because they are "iSheep" seduced by marketing for "overpriced" smartphones. In fact, outside the United States and Japan, people are buying Android smartphones, whose prices range from cheap to iPhone-level. Are those people "aSheep"? (For the record, when it comes to smartphones, in the United States, it's basically half iPhone and half Android.)

Those people are also not buying an iPhone or Android device once, then seeing the error of their ways. No, they buy them again and again, with a minuscule number returning to BlackBerry. Marketing won't trump such personal experience and the word of mouth that results.

Yes, BlackBerry 10 has compelling capabilities, but not enough to compete with iOS, Android, or even Windows Phone.

Yes, yes and yes.

What you have posted goes against a serious deficit in reasoning held by some: that marketing cures all, and that the reason other platforms succeed is, uh, "brainwashing" (LOL).

The truth is something that BlackBerry itself tacitly acknowledges: BB10 doesn't have anything compelling enough to advertise at this time. Why? It's an ecosystem battle now, and has been for a very long time.

Simple stuff, really.

As for those calling for BlackBerry to spend billions on a handful of big names app, respectfully, such a call ignores bith the reality of development AND the importance of diversity of offering.

Say what you want about BlackBerry missteps, but those guys (led by a former iOS user married to an Android user) have a deeper understanding of the current market than a lot of folks tripping on platform loyalty.

[dbmalloy]

All this is just navel gazing and fortune telling...you can go back of forth all you like as to why and what went wrong with BB10 and how BB handled it.. but in the end it is all an abject failure both financially and PR wise... be it through mismanagent or neglect... really does not matter at this point... at this point it is "Hail Mary" time.... There are signs out there that this may actually work in the short term... one of BB failure was not just no advertising but getting media/bloggers to take their product seriously.... with the leaks of Venice... there has be a "lot" of positive buzz on the Android forums and tech sites... you know you might be on to something when BGR does not write a snarkey article about BB.,....and for now at least it is very positve buzz ... even in the comment section... do remember as others have pointed out... BB does not have to sell near the volume as many other Android vendors... if 10 million units per year is "profitable" then the bar is set real low... in relation to the volumes Sony, LG or Samsung have to sell it is a drop in the bucket... no one knows the future... for BB it may be bleak or bright... time will tell....

[KAM1138]

So many android loving people here at CrackBerry have been saying this and it's getting silly. So, how many does BlackBerry have to sell to "break even"? For all you know they have spent a fortune on design, development and parts to get this done.
So why have some of the top tier manufacturers who have been making android devices for years having a hard time even getting to the break even point? Some of these manufacturers can get parts at a much lower cost than BlackBerry because they buy millions at a time. BlackBerry does not have that kind of buying power, so the slider will be very expensive to manufacture.
Now BlackBerry who is a virtually unknown name these days is going to just come out selling and have no problem making money. Really?
BlackBerry does not stand a chance in the android market and I wish they would have spent all the time, money and effort on other things besides the slider.

This brings up several good questions. That is who is the target market for this phone? Assuming that the phone is on the higher end of the cost scale, that will likely cut out a large percentage of customers. Kids/teens for example might not be able to afford (or parents might not want to pay for) an upper end phone.

Then you'd have to ask who from that remaining group is NOT brand-loyal to Samsung or LG or whoever, and is willing to consider a switch to a Brand that is widely considered "dead" even if they know it isn't actually dead. This is asking them to LEAVE the brand they currently have, and may be loyal to.

What does the Venice offer them that they don't already have from a different Android Phone? Specs? Unlikely, that this device will surpass other high end phones (may match it). Ecosystem--nothing there, but equal (if not, and people are right about Ecosystem, then that's a totally dead-on-arrival phone).
Security? Maybe. Blackberry (Currently) touts this, and many people might make that assumption, without regards to the challenges that might exist, OR perhaps this WILL be addressed directly by Blackberry as a selling point (I think that's likely).
Physical Keyboard: This is quite unique for Android, and will likely offer a top-of the line feature here.
Other Blackberry features (unclear on what these are, but let's assume at least some Hubstitute) OH! Has anyone used that--if not, then Trademark! Any other Blackberry specific features Android users currently don't care about but could be convinced is important?

Current Blackberry users clearly aren't enough to make a difference, so let's leave us out of the picture, or assume 100% of us will switch over.

So, who are these non-Blackberry users out there that are willing to abandon their brand for one that has a very tarnished reputation, to gain nothing in terms of ecosystem, nothing in terms of specs, who are currently satisfied with virtual keyboards (but crave physical), and who are interested in some alternate (lesser?) version of what BB10 offers in terms of operation/user interface.

How many people are going to see the name "Blackberry" and IMMEDIATELY dismiss it as a possibility?

Who are these new/returning customers? How many of them are there? I really have no idea. Are there a few million? 10 Million?
Everything about this comes across as another Niche product, NOT appealing to the broader range of customers.
Does this strike ANYONE as a route to a comeback, or even a "Break even" sort of play?
All of this of course assumes that there is a viable marketing effort (you know--the thing that people do NOT think is important, despite...well, everything about our society demonstrating that it is). How many more people won't even see the device, let alone learn about it and seriously consider it due to the lack of marketing (which Blackberry is also demonstrating a total failure in still).

Where am I over or understating the reality here? Because with this, I'm thinking that BB10's Launch is looking pretty bright compared to the environment we've got going right now, but THIS time it will be different right--just because it's android.

KAM

[southlander]

A smartphone maker nowadays has to use Android pretty much to sell phones. It's the only OS that has any mainstream use that a company can license.

If BlackBerry can at least come near break even on the hardware they can sell their software and services on top to make money. Something they can't do with BlackBerry 10, apparently.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[southlander]

This brings up several good questions. That is who is the target market for this phone?

A) people who have wanted a BlackBerry keyboard and a wide apps selection. Ones who ignore current BlackBerry hardware because of BlackBerry 10.

B) BBOS and BlackBerry 10 users that will switch. BlackBerry has lost 10s of millions of these folks over the years. Maybe some of the remaining faithful will move not to a new Galaxy phone or whatever, but instead will opt for the Venice.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[Tre Lawrence]

This brings up several good questions. That is who is the target market for this phone? Assuming that the phone is on the higher end of the cost scale, that will likely cut out a large percentage of customers. Kids/teens for example might not be able to afford (or parents might not want to pay for) an upper end phone.

Then you'd have to ask who from that remaining group is NOT brand-loyal to Samsung or LG or whoever, and is willing to consider a switch to a Brand that is widely considered "dead" even if they know it isn't actually dead. This is asking them to LEAVE the brand they currently have, and may be loyal to.

What does the Venice offer them that they don't already have from a different Android Phone? Specs? Unlikely, that this device will surpass other high end phones (may match it). Ecosystem--nothing there, but equal (if not, and people are right about Ecosystem, then that's a totally dead-on-arrival phone).
Security? Maybe. Blackberry (Currently) touts this, and many people might make that assumption, without regards to the challenges that might exist, OR perhaps this WILL be addressed directly by Blackberry as a selling point (I think that's likely).
Physical Keyboard: This is quite unique for Android, and will likely offer a top-of the line feature here.
Other Blackberry features (unclear on what these are, but let's assume at least some Hubstitute) OH! Has anyone used that--if not, then Trademark! Any other Blackberry specific features Android users currently don't care about but could be convinced is important?

Current Blackberry users clearly aren't enough to make a difference, so let's leave us out of the picture, or assume 100% of us will switch over.

So, who are these non-Blackberry users out there that are willing to abandon their brand for one that has a very tarnished reputation, to gain nothing in terms of ecosystem, nothing in terms of specs, who are currently satisfied with virtual keyboards (but crave physical), and who are interested in some alternate (lesser?) version of what BB10 offers in terms of operation/user interface.

How many people are going to see the name "Blackberry" and IMMEDIATELY dismiss it as a possibility?

Who are these new/returning customers? How many of them are there? I really have no idea. Are there a few million? 10 Million?
Everything about this comes across as another Niche product, NOT appealing to the broader range of customers.
Does this strike ANYONE as a route to a comeback, or even a "Break even" sort of play?
All of this of course assumes that there is a viable marketing effort (you know--the thing that people do NOT think is important, despite...well, everything about our society demonstrating that it is). How many more people won't even see the device, let alone learn about it and seriously consider it due to the lack of marketing (which Blackberry is also demonstrating a total failure in still).

Where am I over or understating the reality here? Because with this, I'm thinking that BB10's Launch is looking pretty bright compared to the environment we've got going right now, but THIS time it will be different right--just because it's android.

KAM

I belong to the camp that isn't sure that Android is a home run solution. It's a tough market, great for consumers but rough for OEMs. I also think consumers are best served by multiple OSes while I acknowledge that my wish for BB10 to survive is not necessarily grounded in reality.

Still, one has to acknowledge some basic points:

• BB10 didn't do what BBRY needed it to do
• BB10 doesn't have a chance at being compeitive without an ecosystem

So, ignoring valid arguments about timing and saturation, it seems to be the easiest thing to try is to give Android a shot.

[greg_z]

BlackBerry only needs to sell enough devices to sustain a hardware business at breakeven. Anything after that is gravy.

BB10 is a financial disaster with no hope of recovery.

A high-end BlackBerry-branded Android device with better security, the HUB, and a world-class pkb should make it stand out. This isn't just another slab.

Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639

Average Android user does not give a dame c.... about security so it is not going to be significant factor in BlackBerry survival. In my humble opinion.

Posted via CB10

[RyanGermann]

Despite the fact that the ship has sailed:

BB10 is an excellent OS that suffers from a lack of apps.

There are a significant (MILLIONS) of people who like BlackBerry 10 devices very much. Millions is a LOT maybe not relative to the entire population of the earth, but I'd be jumping for JOY if I sold "millions" of something that cost hundreds of dollars. It's a pretty respectable thing.

Totally unsubstantiated opinion: if there are lots of BlackBerry 10 users who managed to FIND BB10 and love it despite the App Gap, there are probably millions MORE currently using Android or iOS that just don't know better: they aren't satisfied with their Android or iOS devices, but have no one to advise them about BB10 and what not. So, do I think that it might have been possible to reach some of these people and get more Android and iOS users to convert to BB10? Yes, I do, but it wouldn't be cheap, and it certainly WOULDN'T be done in a "conventional" way that smartphones are advertised today: it would take a very innovative communications and marketing strategy that I don't think internal BB marketing staff or the agencies they contract to are even capable of (cough superbowlcommercial cough)

BlackBerry's PKBs are far superior to non BlackBerry PKBs. FAR FAR superior. This has been reiterated everywhere, even in reviews that say "I don't like the BB10 OS or the square screen, but the keyboard is excellent." DO NOT undervalue the superiority of the BlackBerry PKB compared to other device PKBs. That is, also do NOT base the possibility of success of a device that has a BB PKB on it and runs Android, on the failures of crappy-devices-with-crappy-keyboards to gain any kind of market share, because it's a shiny ripe apples to dead worm-ridden-rotting-apples comparison.

So, if you want to talk about why BB10 failed, go ahead, but it's not as simple as "BB10 failed because BB10 is a bad OS". The fact is BlackBerry didn't know HOW to make BB10 a success despite the app gap and despite its excellence. That's a shame.

So, BlackBerry does stand a good chance of making an impact in the market with a BlackBerry PKB on a large-screened, powerful Android device, where the PKB also doubles as a 'pointing device control'.

Did you know that you can "3D hard press" on the Apple 6S on-screen VKB and turn it into a trackpad for fine cursor positioning? This capability should be possible on any touch screen device (no need to have the pressure sensitive touchscreen for that... a VERY LONG long press could do it or a TWO finger long press or any number of alternatives that don't need the 3D touch) but even APPLE is recognizing the value of the "fine cursor positioning control" that the latest touch-sensitive BlackBerry PKBs can provide, and I bet that a lot of Android users will like it too, if they hear about it or see a video and maybe even are able to try it.

Now, if BlackBerry marketing and their marketing agencies can somehow manage TO NOT F*CK THE WHOLE THING UP then there is a possibility this could be a success for BlackBerry.

By "NOT F*CK IT UP", here's exactly what I mean. Provide VERY DRY, TECHNICAL "These are the key differentiators of a BlackBerry Venice Slider running Android that make it superior to other Android devices."

No attractive 20-somethings running in slow motion on the beach to the latest Sia song! No abstract "kids laughing in the sunshine as their mom takes a picture" crap! No "Father and Son jamming on guitar and drums while they record a video"! No "teens at the county fair at night with the ferris wheel's flashing lights in the background". No "father of newborn baby knocking on the glass of the nursery at the hospital with a tear in his eye"! No "business person gazing thoughtfully at their appointment calendar and then striding into the business sector of a large Asian city with a confident smile on their face"! IT'S ALL CRAP!

THAT STUFF SAYS NOTHING about what a BB10 device can do. Just SAY what it can do that it does better than competitors, and suggest people "Try it for yourselves". Even better, litter the airwaves with 10 second blurbs about the BB Slider and how it's got features that can't be found on any other Android device (with the tagline "The Powerful Beautiful Android device with an absolutely fantastic Keyboard: The BlackBerry Venice".

Yes, like a 50's commercial break from the Milton Berle show, but THAT'S what's needed here. Not all this abstract crap: INFORMATION.

Unfortunately, marketing agencies can't sell "Information". They need to sell a $30 Million vanity pieces. Poor HTC. How they got talked into that RDJ ad I will never understand. It's time for a shakeup in the smartphone advertising business. It's in a rut.

[KAM1138]

Yes, yes and yes.

What you have posted goes against a serious deficit in reasoning held by some: that marketing cures all, and that the reason other platforms succeed is, uh, "brainwashing" (LOL).

The truth is something that BlackBerry itself tacitly acknowledges: BB10 doesn't have anything compelling enough to advertise at this time. Why? It's an ecosystem battle now, and has been for a very long time.

Simple stuff, really.

As for those calling for BlackBerry to spend billions on a handful of big names app, respectfully, such a call ignores bith the reality of development AND the importance of diversity of offering.

Say what you want about BlackBerry missteps, but those guys (led by a former iOS user married to an Android user) have a deeper understanding of the current market than a lot of folks tripping on platform loyalty.

Given that that whole line of reasoning is very much a straw man, because people (like myself) who talk about the importance of marketing aren't claiming that is all there is, or THE reason Blackberry has failed.
Who said "Marketing cures all?" Right--straw man.
However, if anything those in "denial" are the people who fail to understand the importance of marketing, and this has been clearly demonstrated BY Blackberry--less than 2 years ago.
Samsung and Apple don't spend a Billion dollars (not my figures BTW) annually for kicks, so you're really way out on a limb dismissing the power and effect of marketing.

For people scoffing at "Brainwashing" (not a term I think I used--at least not here)...well, I suggest you look into the proven power of brand loyalty, or simply look around at the buying habits of people. It is STRONGLY driven by brand recognition/loyalty/habit. I'm amazed that people don't understand this.

Say anything you want, but Blackberry has been horrible at marketing, PR, customer communications and Brand image--and we see the effects. You could argue it is correlation without causation I suppose, but I doubt it.

People made the same argument that "Blackberry has nothing compelling to advertise" before (prior to BB10), and in adopting that (false) premise, they've insured that the brand continued to suffer and had no chance even if they DID have something Compelling (which it did).

Exactly what is "compelling" about offering Android in a market already flooded with it, isn't apparent to me, but ok,sure--run with that, and see how far it takes them.

For the purpose of discussion let's agree that it IS an Ecosystem battle now. What does Blackberry offer in that regard that other don't? What is going to cause people to leave the Brand they've chosen that they don't already get? *chirping* Yeah, exactly. NOTHING. Blackberry will offer ZERO in terms of Ecosystem.

Simple stuff? Yes, just not what you think it is. Few people argue that Ecosystem isn't what a large portion of consumers know/care about...ok great. Now Blackberry will offer what everyone else offers in terms of Android Ecosystem. Then what?

Diversity of offering? Well, perception and reality might be a little different there. Blackberry currently offers a lot of "diversity" through the Amazon App store--a lot of diverse garbage, but I will grant people believe that they need that garbage, so please perpetuate that mindset, and link the Blackberry car to that Train, Then tell me if that's a path to success?

But hey--the great thing is that BlackBerry is highly likely to follow the way of thinking that you seem to advocate. That's fine--I can only lose so much more money by stock dropping further. I can live with that.

I hope I'm wrong--I truly and sincerely do. I hope that the Venice is WILDLY successful (even if I'm not interested in it--but who knows I may be--insufficient information to make a decision yet). I'll be happy to admit that I was horribly mistaken.

Thing is...a lot of reality would have to shift for that to occur. This whole mindset that Marketing isn't going to be a required part of any recovery is pure head-in-the-sand lunacy. It isn't EVERYTHING, its just an important thing.

KAM

[whatsever]

99,9% of the Smartphone users don't care about a BlackBerry Android device or doesn't know that it exist ,but still I think this phone could pull out a sale around 600.000 phone's but that is because I think there will be a mix of BlackBerry and Android users going to buy a qwerty slide phone.

[KAM1138]

99,9% of the Smartphone users don't care about a BlackBerry Android device or doesn't know that it exist ,but still I think this phone could pull out a sale around 600.000 phone's but that is because I think there will be a mix of BlackBerry and Android users going to buy a qwerty slide phone.

Without commenting on the value you chose (600,000), I think you're correct.

KAM

[KAM1138]

A) people who have wanted a BlackBerry keyboard and a wide apps selection. Ones who ignore current BlackBerry hardware because of BlackBerry 10.

Hmmm, BECAUSE of BB10? Or do you mean, lack of app support for BB10. I understand they are related, but I think a lot of people (not saying you) conflate these things. BB10 is a very functional and pretty slick OS.
I'm not sure how many people that jumped ship at this point care that much about the physical keyboard. If the desire for toys (apps) overrides almost every interaction they have with a phone (keyboard) got them to switch, I'm not sure it will be strong enough to bring them back.
I'm sure there are some. Myself--I really am comfortable on both, but maybe that's just me.

B) BBOS and BlackBerry 10 users that will switch. BlackBerry has lost 10s of millions of these folks over the years. Maybe some of the remaining faithful will move not to a new Galaxy phone or whatever, but instead will opt for the Venice.

Well, that's the hope isn't it, but we're several more years into it. Even loyal Blackberry users might have a hard time justifying a switch back, but I do agree those folks are probably the ripest targets.
Of course, there are those of us who really like BB10, and see Android as a step down. I guess it depends on how much of the BB experience they can mimic.

KAM

[KAM1138]

I belong to the camp that isn't sure that Android is a home run solution. It's a tough market, great for consumers but rough for OEMs. I also think consumers are best served by multiple OSes while I acknowledge that my wish for BB10 to survive is not necessarily grounded in reality.

Still, one has to acknowledge some basic points:

• BB10 didn't do what BBRY needed it to do
• BB10 doesn't have a chance at being compeitive without an ecosystem

So, ignoring valid arguments about timing and saturation, it seems to be the easiest thing to try is to give Android a shot.

Hmmm, well, you might be right that trying Android is the EASIEST thing. Is it the BEST thing, that will lead to long-term success? Or is this a failure to have a better idea, or motivated by other goals (than to remain or regain handset business viable).

When you say BB10 didn't do what BBRY needed it to do? I'm not sure what that means. Do you mean that BLACKBERRY (the company) didn't do what IT needed to do WITH BB10?

BB10 doesn't have a chance at being competitive without an Ecosystem. Well, it has an ecosystem--its a weak one, but if that's the problem, then addressing it DIRECTLY would seem to be the solution, but apparently that's not possible, or they can't figure it out. Because moving to Android is NOT addressing that problem--it's seeking to sidestep that problem...while taking on whatever new issues come with that choice.

So, I'm not sure this "easiest" route is at all equal to the best way to address the problems Blackberry is suffering.

KAM

[I will be back]

A high-end BlackBerry-branded Android device with better security, the HUB, and a world-class pkb should make it stand out. This isn't just another slab.

It is.
And it is inferior to Samsung and LG slabs as they put 100 times more to R'n'D where BB outsources it to Foxconn or other white box manufacturer.

[KAM1138]

BB10 is an excellent OS that suffers from a lack of apps.

So, if you want to talk about why BB10 failed, go ahead, but it's not as simple as "BB10 failed because BB10 is a bad OS". The fact is BlackBerry didn't know HOW to make BB10 a success despite the app gap and despite its excellence. That's a shame.

I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight the above, because I think it is the point that almost everyone (especially those most interested in Android) either ignore, forget or don't realize.

BB10 is and was an Excellent OS. BlackBerry is (perhaps) choosing to throw that away to chase some HOPE of success with Android, because they're not imaginative, or innovative enough, or simply practically can't figure out how to address the Ecosystem weakness that BBRY suffers from.

Let's not forget that going to Android (at the presumed cost of BB10's future--speculation I understand) is an admission that they are no longer innovating in this regards. We've all heard the VHS vs Beta thing--and this is yet another example of it. BB10 is a great product that was allowed to be steam-rolled by inept management (many aspects of it), despite being technologically excellent.

People can disagree with that if they wish, but that's what bothers me about this whole thing--that people seem to be ignorantly dismissing BB10, as if IT was somehow flawed, instead of it being a failure of the people managing it. YET, they now want to trust that many of these same people will somehow make it different this time, while failing to address all but ONE issue (ecosystem).

Ecosystem is important, for sure, but that's not the whole story.

Interestingly, the people that seem focused on this ONE thing, are accusing others (like myself) of focusing on only one thing (Marketing), but that's not the case--and never has been (at least for me). It is yet another very important thing.

KAM

[KAM1138]

It is.
And it is inferior to Samsung and LG slabs as they put 100 times more to R'n'D where BB outsources it to Foxconn or other white box manufacturer.

Let's be fair...it's just another slab with a (likely expensive) slider, AND some veil of BB-ishness put on it (probably).

On a separate note.

Can I just say again that it is terribly ironic that a company that claims it is a "software company" is looking to dump the CENTRAL piece of software it spent tons of time and money developing (BB10), in order to adopt a third-party OS.

Stay tuned for news from Microsoft announcing that they are refocusing on Software by cancelling any further versions of Windows.

I wish I could laugh at the absurdity of it all.
KAM

[conite]

I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight the above, because I think it is the point that almost everyone (especially those most interested in Android) either ignore, forget or don't realize.

KAM

The fact that I don't agree doesn't mean I'm "ignoring, forgetting, or not realising".

My opinion is that everything BlackBerry did do, or could have done with the launch of BB10 was just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It was doomed to failure before release. It was worth the shot, but the fact that developers were not interested despite everything BlackBerry attempted sealed the deal well before launch.

Free porting of apps, cash incentives, and offers of free support fell on deaf ears. The ecosystem war was already lost.

Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2639

[Tre Lawrence]

Given that that whole line of reasoning is very much a straw man, because people (like myself) who talk about the importance of marketing aren't claiming that is all there is, or THE reason Blackberry has failed.
Who said "Marketing cures all?" Right--straw man.
However, if anything those in "denial" are the people who fail to understand the importance of marketing, and this has been clearly demonstrated BY Blackberry--less than 2 years ago.
Samsung and Apple don't spend a Billion dollars (not my figures BTW) annually for kicks, so you're really way out on a limb dismissing the power and effect of marketing.

For people scoffing at "Brainwashing" (not a term I think I used--at least not here)...well, I suggest you look into the proven power of brand loyalty, or simply look around at the buying habits of people. It is STRONGLY driven by brand recognition/loyalty/habit. I'm amazed that people don't understand this.

Say anything you want, but Blackberry has been horrible at marketing, PR, customer communications and Brand image--and we see the effects. You could argue it is correlation without causation I suppose, but I doubt it.

People made the same argument that "Blackberry has nothing compelling to advertise" before (prior to BB10), and in adopting that (false) premise, they've insured that the brand continued to suffer and had no chance even if they DID have something Compelling (which it did).

Exactly what is "compelling" about offering Android in a market already flooded with it, isn't apparent to me, but ok,sure--run with that, and see how far it takes them.

For the purpose of discussion let's agree that it IS an Ecosystem battle now. What does Blackberry offer in that regard that other don't? What is going to cause people to leave the Brand they've chosen that they don't already get? *chirping* Yeah, exactly. NOTHING. Blackberry will offer ZERO in terms of Ecosystem.

Simple stuff? Yes, just not what you think it is. Few people argue that Ecosystem isn't what a large portion of consumers know/care about...ok great. Now Blackberry will offer what everyone else offers in terms of Android Ecosystem. Then what?

Diversity of offering? Well, perception and reality might be a little different there. Blackberry currently offers a lot of "diversity" through the Amazon App store--a lot of diverse garbage, but I will grant people believe that they need that garbage, so please perpetuate that mindset, and link the Blackberry car to that Train, Then tell me if that's a path to success?

But hey--the great thing is that BlackBerry is highly likely to follow the way of thinking that you seem to advocate. That's fine--I can only lose so much more money by stock dropping further. I can live with that.

I hope I'm wrong--I truly and sincerely do. I hope that the Venice is WILDLY successful (even if I'm not interested in it--but who knows I may be--insufficient information to make a decision yet). I'll be happy to admit that I was horribly mistaken.

Thing is...a lot of reality would have to shift for that to occur. This whole mindset that Marketing isn't going to be a required part of any recovery is pure head-in-the-sand lunacy. It isn't EVERYTHING, its just an important thing.

KAM

LOL @ strawman. I don't think you said anything, I didn't even base anything I wrote on what you wrote. Long as I have been in these forums, I have no problem quoting folks directly.

My comment was directed to a vocal minority who actually seem to believe that all it would take to solve BBRY's issues is $3 Billion.

Now, back to my opening gambit: Android isn't a cure all IMHO. I am not convinced the hardware keyboard will be that much of a draw, but I have been wrong before. If ecosystem is a major concern -- and I believe that it is -- then BlackBerry is, in theory, automatically in a better position than it is currently.

By diversity, I mean raw app availability in easy-to-access form. This means the big name apps PLUS those for local banks, supermarkets, pharmacies, libraries school systems, etc. That is what proponents of the "spend a billion to get apps" fail to take into account. Having Netflix ix cool, but every individual has a different set of top 10 apps. That is what iOS and Android users enjoy, and something not even MSFT can buy.

Developers attract developers.

BlackBerry horrible at marketing? Absolutely, IMHO. Creating mindshare is something it has struggled with for quite some time. Could marketing help? I think so. Is it BBRY's biggest problem? Not even close, and I think JC understands this. I read somewhere that in his last gig, he upped the ad spending to help increase the company's profile.

SO what is it that JC and the rest of the board (which includes major hitters from distinguished business schools that have run investment corporations and advertising behemoths like VZW) seem to understand that some folks don't? That to advertise, one first needs a compelling product. I am guessing that advertising BB10 (which BBRY did heavily at first, BTW, and weren't even able to get legacy BBOS folks to switch over) is a waste of time without underlying third-party support.

[Tre Lawrence]

I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight the above, because I think it is the point that almost everyone (especially those most interested in Android) either ignore, forget or don't realize.

BB10 is and was an Excellent OS. BlackBerry is (perhaps) choosing to throw that away to chase some HOPE of success with Android, because they're not imaginative, or innovative enough, or simply practically can't figure out how to address the Ecosystem weakness that BBRY suffers from.

Let's not forget that going to Android (at the presumed cost of BB10's future--speculation I understand) is an admission that they are no longer innovating in this regards. We've all heard the VHS vs Beta thing--and this is yet another example of it. BB10 is a great product that was allowed to be steam-rolled by inept management (many aspects of it), despite being technologically excellent.

People can disagree with that if they wish, but that's what bothers me about this whole thing--that people seem to be ignorantly dismissing BB10, as if IT was somehow flawed, instead of it being a failure of the people managing it. YET, they now want to trust that many of these same people will somehow make it different this time, while failing to address all but ONE issue (ecosystem).

Ecosystem is important, for sure, but that's not the whole story.

Interestingly, the people that seem focused on this ONE thing, are accusing others (like myself) of focusing on only one thing (Marketing), but that's not the case--and never has been (at least for me). It is yet another very important thing.

KAM

I don't know that anyone is arguing with the excerpt you quoted. It makes sense to anyone.

For a for-profit entity though, failure is failure. It helps to know why, but that doesn't really deaden the sting so much.

That post also underscores an important point: the beauty or fluidity of an OS means little; I am sure WebOS fans would concur. In the end, BB10's biggest enemy was time. It arrived a tad too late, and was published by a company with relatively small resources.