09-08-15 11:31 PM
153 1234 ...
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  1. johnlen7's Avatar
    Well, Chen said he will bring in an Android phone only if he can secure it.
    And your theory seems to support to an extent what Chen proclaimed. With more and more leaks suggesting that Android version is defenitely coming, one can assume that Blackberry did find a way to squeeze some sort of security...and I can't see that without utilizing the QNX.
    08-22-15 03:06 AM
  2. kojita's Avatar
    I am fully with you. It makes sense both technically and marketwise
    08-22-15 03:35 AM
  3. mania626's Avatar
    I soooooooooo like the sound like of this ! Good work Alejandro

    Posted via CB10
    08-22-15 07:19 AM
  4. Ealaionta's Avatar
    That sounds like what every other competent tech company would have done with its resources, but I somehow can't see it happening with BlackBerry. I'll go with Occam's razor here and say, they simply put a lightly skinned Android on the phone with their productivity suite apps (Hub, Keyboard, Calendar, Remember, Assistant) and be done with it.

    I'd love to be wrong, though.
    00stryder likes this.
    08-22-15 07:35 AM
  5. bhoqeem's Avatar
    Android this, android that...
    Ugh!
    gfondeur and extisis like this.
    08-22-15 11:13 AM
  6. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Sounds a bit crazy,.. but that's usually a sign of a worth-while idea. It really is becoming a very interesting tech-story.
    08-22-15 11:57 AM
  7. Alejandro Nova's Avatar
    That sounds like what every other competent tech company would have done with its resources, but I somehow can't see it happening with BlackBerry. I'll go with Occam's razor here and say, they simply put a lightly skinned Android on the phone with their productivity suite apps (Hub, Keyboard, Calendar, Remember, Assistant) and be done with it.

    I'd love to be wrong, though.
    If BlackBerry does what you say, it's corporate suicide. BlackBerry phones wouldn't have any competitive advantage over normal phones, and, even more catastrophically, BES12 wouldn't have any advantage over Good or MobileIron while sold with BlackBerry phones. You would be allowing your competition to step into your garden. Forget about Balance. Forget about the encrypted BES communication route.

    John Chen would be sacked immediately and BlackBerry would be doomed, following your scenario. That's why I think it cannot be true. It's not a fanboyish denial, it's a denial founded on business reasons.
    Last edited by Alejandro Nova; 08-22-15 at 12:19 PM.
    BB2ooo likes this.
    08-22-15 12:08 PM
  8. _dimi_'s Avatar
    If BlackBerry does what you say, it's corporate suicide. BlackBerry phones wouldn't have any competitive advantage over normal phones, and, even more catastrophically, BES12 wouldn't have any advantage over Good or MobileIron while sold with BlackBerry phones. You would be allowing your competition to step into your garden. Forget about Balance. Forget about the encrypted BES communication route.

    John Chen would be sacked immediately and BlackBerry would be doomed, following your scenario. That's why I think it cannot be true. It's not a fanboyish denial, it's a denial founded on business reasons.
    Could you elaborate a bit more on your first paragraph? How is entering the Android market with the best keyboard out there, corporate suicide? Isn't it better to sell Android (in shops) and BB10 (directly from BlackBerry) seperately targetting different sectors (secure enough vs. highly-secure)? BES12 would have advantage for BB10 devices and compete with other MDM players for the Android market including Knox ; and not lose out on the Android potential for their hardware business?

    Posted via CB10
    MO3iusONE and ayngling like this.
    08-22-15 02:01 PM
  9. Alejandro Nova's Avatar
    Could you elaborate a bit more on your first paragraph? How is entering the Android market with the best keyboard out there, corporate suicide? Isn't it better to sell Android (in shops) and BB10 (directly from BlackBerry) seperately targetting different sectors (secure enough vs. highly-secure)? BES12 would have advantage for BB10 devices and compete with other MDM players for the Android market including Knox ; and not lose out on the Android potential for their hardware business?

    Posted via CB10
    According to what we've seen so far from John Chen, the crown jewel here seems to be BES12, not our beloved keyboard. Good and MobileIron have been targeted as true competitors, and the fight with Google and Apple for the consumer space seems to have been abandoned. So a Secured Android must provide competitive advantages and unique features like what you see in BlackBerry 10. Secured Android shouldn't run only Android for Work (a mechanism to containerize business apps) or Knox, just like Good or MobileIron software does; it needs to bring to the table a version of the full BlackBerry Balance experience, and the true BES experience, capable of encrypting communications end to end, and truly separating the work side from the personal side, something that goes far beyond what an Android app can do. You need kernel support, and Android cannot provide that, by design.

    Also, BlackBerry 10 phones are true Windows SMB clients and can be clients in a Windows network, a capability exploited by Blend and used to encrypt all phone-2-computer communication. That cannot be done in Android.

    This is visible in a Linux computer. If you connect an Android phone to a Linux computer, the Android terminal is going to be recognized as a MTP device, as a pendrive, or as a wireless modem (depending on your choices). If you connect a BlackBerry phone to a Linux computer, the first thing you'll see is NetworkManager trying to initiate a Ethernet through USB network connection, and the proper way to connect a BlackBerry to a Linux computer is through Samba. Android, I repeat, cannot do that, and cannot do that by design.

    All those capabilities require some degree of kernel support, and the Android kernel has been stripped of all features related to Ethernet, for reasons that, before BlackBerry, appeared to be obvious. You would have to invest time and money developing for the Linux kernel, or you can use the kernel and the tools you already have. Occam's razor, reversed.

    You cannot have that with MobileIron or Good, because they are forced to develop for the Android kernel, and so, settle for the lowest common denominator: an app level containerization, instead of a system-wide containerization with data encryption. If you simply put Android in your BlackBerries and scrap every enterprise feature you already have in QNX, you are screwed, because you've lowered yourself to the same level Good and MobileIron are. If you have a Secured Android in your arsenal, with support for all the things we know are in BlackBerry 10, you can leapfrog Good and MobileIron and leave them dead in the water.
    08-22-15 02:40 PM
  10. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Very interesting Alejandro Nova. Many thanks

    Posted via CB10
    08-22-15 02:49 PM
  11. bhoqeem's Avatar
    Alejandro Nova for President, indeed.
    Way too technical for me to argue. I think I'll stick with the, "let's see" mantra.

    Z10STL100-4/10.3.2.2339 on XL Network
    Last edited by bhoqeem; 08-22-15 at 03:19 PM.
    08-22-15 03:08 PM
  12. extisis's Avatar
    Time for speculation, time for entirely baseless speculation.
    that's where we started, why would you want to go back to square one? we're making headway. calm down and let announcements happen. everyday with these threads.
    08-22-15 03:13 PM
  13. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar

    Also, BlackBerry 10 phones are true Windows SMB clients and can be clients in a Windows network, a capability exploited by Blend and used to encrypt all phone-2-computer communication. That cannot be done in Android.

    This is visible in a Linux computer. If you connect an Android phone to a Linux computer, the Android terminal is going to be recognized as a MTP device, as a pendrive, or as a wireless modem (depending on your choices). If you connect a BlackBerry phone to a Linux computer, the first thing you'll see is NetworkManager trying to initiate a Ethernet through USB network connection, and the proper way to connect a BlackBerry to a Linux computer is through Samba. Android, I repeat, cannot do that, and cannot do that by design.
    Really? You sure?
    Mecca EL likes this.
    08-22-15 03:48 PM
  14. sammyg423's Avatar
    Interesting.
    08-22-15 04:55 PM
  15. Munx's Avatar
    According to what we've seen so far from John Chen, the crown jewel here seems to be BES12, not our beloved keyboard. Good and MobileIron have been targeted as true competitors, and the fight with Google and Apple for the consumer space seems to have been abandoned. So a Secured Android must provide competitive advantages and unique features like what you see in BlackBerry 10. Secured Android shouldn't run only Android for Work (a mechanism to containerize business apps) or Knox, just like Good or MobileIron software does; it needs to bring to the table a version of the full BlackBerry Balance experience, and the true BES experience, capable of encrypting communications end to end, and truly separating the work side from the personal side, something that goes far beyond what an Android app can do. You need kernel support, and Android cannot provide that, by design.

    Also, BlackBerry 10 phones are true Windows SMB clients and can be clients in a Windows network, a capability exploited by Blend and used to encrypt all phone-2-computer communication. That cannot be done in Android.

    This is visible in a Linux computer. If you connect an Android phone to a Linux computer, the Android terminal is going to be recognized as a MTP device, as a pendrive, or as a wireless modem (depending on your choices). If you connect a BlackBerry phone to a Linux computer, the first thing you'll see is NetworkManager trying to initiate a Ethernet through USB network connection, and the proper way to connect a BlackBerry to a Linux computer is through Samba. Android, I repeat, cannot do that, and cannot do that by design.

    All those capabilities require some degree of kernel support, and the Android kernel has been stripped of all features related to Ethernet, for reasons that, before BlackBerry, appeared to be obvious. You would have to invest time and money developing for the Linux kernel, or you can use the kernel and the tools you already have. Occam's razor, reversed.

    You cannot have that with MobileIron or Good, because they are forced to develop for the Android kernel, and so, settle for the lowest common denominator: an app level containerization, instead of a system-wide containerization with data encryption. If you simply put Android in your BlackBerries and scrap every enterprise feature you already have in QNX, you are screwed, because you've lowered yourself to the same level Good and MobileIron are. If you have a Secured Android in your arsenal, with support for all the things we know are in BlackBerry 10, you can leapfrog Good and MobileIron and leave them dead in the water.
    A 'multi-layered' OS. A term used in one of the first Reddit leaks, and one used by Habkirk. Probably came from Blackberry.

    Posted via CB10
    08-22-15 05:08 PM
  16. BlackberryFan777's Avatar
    I wont talk too much about the validity of your theory. I will say one thing. A statement from my contact said something interesting which they wouldn't elaborate on. "Google wasn't happy that it didn't look android enough". I believe the silver passport was suppose to have Android on it but didn't because of this. If it was stock android there wouldn't be question about how android it was. The fact that Blackberry needed to make changes to the OS tells me that there is something different about the OS version.
    It may be that Google would like to see BlackBerry succeed as an OEM. There's tons of evidence that Android consumers do not like heavily skinned versions of Android, like touchwiz. Perhaps, Google was simply advising it's future OEM that there's a reason why they make "stock Android" the first selling point in marketing their Nexus materials.

    Posted via CB10
    08-22-15 06:31 PM
  17. sati01's Avatar
    According to what we've seen so far from John Chen, the crown jewel here seems to be BES12, not our beloved keyboard. Good and MobileIron have been targeted as true competitors, and the fight with Google and Apple for the consumer space seems to have been abandoned. So a Secured Android must provide competitive advantages and unique features like what you see in BlackBerry 10. Secured Android shouldn't run only Android for Work (a mechanism to containerize business apps) or Knox, just like Good or MobileIron software does; it needs to bring to the table a version of the full BlackBerry Balance experience, and the true BES experience, capable of encrypting communications end to end, and truly separating the work side from the personal side, something that goes far beyond what an Android app can do. You need kernel support, and Android cannot provide that, by design.
    The footprint of BB10 in the enterprise is insignificant. BB10 is not a competitive advantage for BES, sales of BES 10 and 12 have been disappointing. Actually, the old BBOS is helping more with the adoption of BES12. BB10 has been around two years without any positive impact in BES. BlackBerry wouldn't lose much ditching the platform.

    Also, BlackBerry 10 phones are true Windows SMB clients and can be clients in a Windows network, a capability exploited by Blend and used to encrypt all phone-2-computer communication. That cannot be done in Android.

    This is visible in a Linux computer. If you connect an Android phone to a Linux computer, the Android terminal is going to be recognized as a MTP device, as a pendrive, or as a wireless modem (depending on your choices). If you connect a BlackBerry phone to a Linux computer, the first thing you'll see is NetworkManager trying to initiate a Ethernet through USB network connection, and the proper way to connect a BlackBerry to a Linux computer is through Samba. Android, I repeat, cannot do that, and cannot do that by design.
    SMB/CIFS is a application-layer protocol. It doesn't have anything to do with the kernel. In fact, there are apps in Play store that convert an Android phone in a SMB client and also a SMB server.

    You cannot have that with MobileIron or Good, because they are forced to develop for the Android kernel, and so, settle for the lowest common denominator: an app level containerization, instead of a system-wide containerization with data encryption. If you simply put Android in your BlackBerries and scrap every enterprise feature you already have in QNX, you are screwed, because you've lowered yourself to the same level Good and MobileIron are. If you have a Secured Android in your arsenal, with support for all the things we know are in BlackBerry 10, you can leapfrog Good and MobileIron and leave them dead in the water.
    Where did you read that BlackBerry Balance has anything to do with the kernel?
    08-22-15 07:11 PM
  18. Alejandro Nova's Avatar
    The footprint of BB10 in the enterprise is insignificant. BB10 is not a competitive advantage for BES, sales of BES 10 and 12 have been disappointing. Actually, the old BBOS is helping more with the adoption of BES12. BB10 has been around two years without any positive impact in BES. BlackBerry wouldn't lose much ditching the platform.

    SMB/CIFS is a application-layer protocol. It doesn't have anything to do with the kernel. In fact, there are apps in Play store that convert an Android phone in a SMB client and also a SMB server.

    Where did you read that BlackBerry Balance has anything to do with the kernel?
    1. You are right on that premise, but an advantage could be made. Remember: beginning this post I said: there are no facts here, only speculation. Any fact can trump my speculation, but this one, particularly, does not: that failure has everything to do with the failure of BB10 as a platform, but those features on their own are worthy.

    2 and 3. You are right, and I was imprecise. Both SMB (as a systemwide service) and Balance don't have anything to do with the kernel. They have everything to do with the userland that seats beneath the sandbox and above the kernel. If you give APKs inside the sandbox the ability to provide network services to every app, transparently and without constraints; or the ability to truly partition the device beyond what an app container can do, then you have a quite insecure sandbox. Of course you can do a file transfer app in the sandbox using SMB/CIFS, but that doesn't defeat the point.

    I'm also wrong: I said "kernel" and that is incorrect.

    Wide vision, from Chile.
    Last edited by Alejandro Nova; 08-22-15 at 09:14 PM.
    08-22-15 08:53 PM
  19. Alejandro Nova's Avatar
    Really? You sure?
    Unless you want to fiddle with SELinux policies and do some serious Android developments, that is. BlackBerry, as far as we know, has zero experience developing for Linux. Of course some Google assistance could change some things here.

    Wide vision, from Chile.
    08-22-15 08:57 PM
  20. kfh227's Avatar
    Chen did say that Tony way they would release an android device is if they could secure it. But his theory actually has credence

    Posted via CB10
    08-22-15 09:14 PM
  21. kfh227's Avatar
    Unless you want to fiddle with SELinux policies and do some serious Android developments, that is. BlackBerry, as far as we know, has zero experience developing for Linux. Of course some Google assistance could change some things here.

    Wide vision, from Chile.
    Make the Linux app work with the qnx kernel. Game over.

    Posted via CB10
    08-22-15 09:15 PM
  22. sanjayjp99's Avatar
    Time for speculation, time for entirely baseless speculation. This is completely devoid of facts, but it's another interesting thesis, since the Hypervisor theory was all but discarded.

    As you know, Android is made of Linux + Google userland (bionic + SurfaceFlinger + AudioFlinger + other things) + ART and sandbox + APPS. The MADA you love (watch it here: http://www.benedelman.org/docs/htc-mada.pdf) has a laundry list of conditions that must be fulfilled by the manufacturer, like putting Google search front and center, installing some Google apps, passing the Android Compatibility Test and the f) letter in the 2.2 point, License Grant Restrictions: "(f) take any aclfons that may cause or result in the fragmentation of Android, including but not limited to the distribution by Company of a software development kit (SDK) derived from Android or derived from Android Compatible Devices and Company shall-not assist or encourage any third party to distribute a software development kit (SDK) derived from Android, or derived from Android Compatible Devices" (emphasis by me).

    As you know, no mobile manufacturer who wants to run Android, not even the mighty Samsung, has a kernel. Citing only operating systems with Android runtimes:
    - Tizen is Linux + Linux userland (glibc + Wayland + PulseAudio) + Enlightenment Foundation Libraries + Tizen apps + Android compatibility libraries.
    - Sailfish is Linux + Linux userland (glibc + Wayland + PulseAudio) + Qt 5 + Sailfish apps + Android runtime.

    As I said: no one has a kernel. No one, except BlackBerry.

    There is nothing in the MADA that prevents BlackBerry from shipping this: QNX Neutrino + QNX userland and display engine + ART (ported to QNX userland) + Android Apps. If you want to comply with MADA you only have to a) put Google Apps front and center; b) comply with the Android Compatibility Tests.

    If you get outside help from Google to do b) and happily agree to comply with a), then you have an Android that is not Android, but looks like Android and acts like Android. SELinux is replaced with the QNX sandboxing system; Qt and BlackBerry apps can run side by side with Google's, and you have QNX extra security. It's like installing Qt side by side with Windows interface libraries, or running Qt and GTK apps in Linux.

    This could have unsuspected consequences, since QNX is controlled by BlackBerry, unlike Linux, who is controlled by the Linux Foundation and Linus Torvalds himself.
    After reading this POST Blackberry should run by Crackberrian not by JC. excellent theory.
    08-22-15 09:54 PM
  23. sanjayjp99's Avatar
    Time for speculation, time for entirely baseless speculation. This is completely devoid of facts, but it's another interesting thesis, since the Hypervisor theory was all but discarded.

    As you know, Android is made of Linux + Google userland (bionic + SurfaceFlinger + AudioFlinger + other things) + ART and sandbox + APPS. The MADA you love (watch it here: http://www.benedelman.org/docs/htc-mada.pdf) has a laundry list of conditions that must be fulfilled by the manufacturer, like putting Google search front and center, installing some Google apps, passing the Android Compatibility Test and the f) letter in the 2.2 point, License Grant Restrictions: "(f) take any aclfons that may cause or result in the fragmentation of Android, including but not limited to the distribution by Company of a software development kit (SDK) derived from Android or derived from Android Compatible Devices and Company shall-not assist or encourage any third party to distribute a software development kit (SDK) derived from Android, or derived from Android Compatible Devices" (emphasis by me).

    As you know, no mobile manufacturer who wants to run Android, not even the mighty Samsung, has a kernel. Citing only operating systems with Android runtimes:
    - Tizen is Linux + Linux userland (glibc + Wayland + PulseAudio) + Enlightenment Foundation Libraries + Tizen apps + Android compatibility libraries.
    - Sailfish is Linux + Linux userland (glibc + Wayland + PulseAudio) + Qt 5 + Sailfish apps + Android runtime.

    As I said: no one has a kernel. No one, except BlackBerry.

    There is nothing in the MADA that prevents BlackBerry from shipping this: QNX Neutrino + QNX userland and display engine + ART (ported to QNX userland) + Android Apps. If you want to comply with MADA you only have to a) put Google Apps front and center; b) comply with the Android Compatibility Tests.

    If you get outside help from Google to do b) and happily agree to comply with a), then you have an Android that is not Android, but looks like Android and acts like Android. SELinux is replaced with the QNX sandboxing system; Qt and BlackBerry apps can run side by side with Google's, and you have QNX extra security. It's like installing Qt side by side with Windows interface libraries, or running Qt and GTK apps in Linux.

    This could have unsuspected consequences, since QNX is controlled by BlackBerry, unlike Linux, who is controlled by the Linux Foundation and Linus Torvalds himself.
    Is this call Android Secure????
    08-22-15 10:30 PM
  24. srb151's Avatar
    [QUOTE=sati01;11873195]The footprint of BB10 in the enterprise is insignificant. BB10 is not a competitive advantage for BES, sales of BES 10 and 12 have been disappointing. Actually, the old BBOS is helping more with the adoption of BES12. BB10 has been around two years without any positive impact in BES. BlackBerry wouldn't lose much ditching the platform./QUOTE]

    Actually, the figures you state can be used to support the idea of keeping things running on qnx/bb10 of some sort. Why do you think all of those BBOS devices are still around? If there was a good, secure solution, they'd have bailed on BES and BB already. It seems to me that these customers are sitting on the fence to see if a) a better solution comes along, or b) they have enough faith that BB not only has a long term solution, but is committed to it and won't be orphaned. A pure android slider would also require Chen to change his message from "BB10 is a much more secure system than android" to "android is just as secure". As Alejandro mentioned earlier, going "me too" removes any competitive advantage and puts them into a bad spot.

    I think the other thing to think about is that if android could be secured easily without disrupting their ecosystem, they'd have done it already.
    08-22-15 11:01 PM
  25. Benjamin Black's Avatar
    Really? You sure?
    I will back him up on this as accurate.
    08-23-15 12:15 AM
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