11-10-15 12:46 AM
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  1. skibnik's Avatar
    Mike Lazaridis was brilliant. RIM/ML problem is they grew so fast that he did not surround himself with the proper people.

    The executives and some key department heads in the fast growing RIM out grew their positions.

    To bad ML was so arrogant to realize he needed help or listen. The BB10 was to little to late and when it did come out it was a down grade from BBOS7. That and not having a track ball killed RIM.

    Instead of pouring billions into marketing and inventory they should spent that on the development of BB10 and came out with a Bold2. With the right people and 2 billion dollars (which they had) the OS could have been anything and the greatest. It could have even been done in less than a year with a good plan.

    BB10 has never been any good until the l0.2. Just look back at the 9900 threads and see why users did not switch.

    There are lots of what ifs, but not going Android was not a mistake. Not doing it fast enough with key people and a plan was. Why didn't RIM just start hiring top app developers and write RIM/BB10 apps?. Or bought them all up.

    Look what JC has done since his tenure. BlackBerry is buying their completion that is what smart companies do. Why didn't Lararidis buy top app companies or hire the key people away?

    Yes, I know it's all hind sight, but the CFO should have been shot at sunrise allowing that type of inventory or a advising the share holders of the red flags that came up well before the mortar started decaying.

    The bottom line "in my opinion" is surrounding yourself with top executives. MG he had the money to buy anyone.

    RIP: RIM

    "You're only known for the worst thing you do." 1978 DSO



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    Agree with most points but Blackberry tried everything they could to curry the favour of app developers with incentives but in the end it was already too late as Apple and Android dominated the market by that time. The old guard at Blackberry had their heads in the sand and should have joined the OHA the second Google started it to counter the threat Apple posed, it would have been just a matter of keeping BBOS for enterprise and releasing Android devices for the general consumer. With the influence that Blackberry had at that time (2008) it could have steered and molded Android towards BlackBerry's philosophy of security, just like what they are tying to do now with the Priv.
    11-03-15 07:32 AM
  2. anon4226395's Avatar
    The cleverest move JC has made was to bring in Ron Louks. His second cleverest move was to listen to his Device Head, and go Android
    Mr4aces likes this.
    11-03-15 07:47 AM
  3. Mr4aces's Avatar
    Agree with most points but Blackberry tried everything they could to curry the favour of app developers with incentives but in the end it was already too late as Apple and Android dominated the market by that time. The old guard at Blackberry had their heads in the sand and should have joined the OHA the second Google started it to counter the threat Apple posed, it would have been just a matter of keeping BBOS for enterprise and releasing Android devices for the general consumer. With the influence that Blackberry had at that time (2008) it could have steered and molded Android towards BlackBerry's philosophy of security, just like what they are tying to do now with the Priv.
    +1

    In regards to app developers, I'm talking early not when Apple had a foot hole. And/or had the right person in charge in that segment of the OS.

    I agree that not joining OHA was another big mistake, arrogance. Your right about steering the industry.

    Just think what Playbook could have been with OHA

    All companies make mistakes it what you do to recover that make great companies.

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    Last edited by Mr4aces; 11-03-15 at 08:21 AM.
    Toodeurep likes this.
    11-03-15 07:50 AM
  4. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    The CNET article makes it clear that Android was not Chen's idea, and that he was skeptical at first. Also that the decision time line began when the Passport sold in low quantities in Q4 of 2014, and the Amazon App Store proved inadequate in addressing the app gap.

    More advertising might have helped a little, but it would not have addressed the fundamental problem of BB10, which is that people buy computing platforms for the applications and based on what other consumers choose, not based on the merits of the OS, and BB10 was too late to market to gain significant market share. Also, BlackBerry had already lost the support of carriers and retail stores like Best Buy after their losses on the Z10 and Q10.

    Hardware has been unprofitable. It doesn't matter what it's revenue contribution % is. The best financial choice would have been to never build BB10 and just harvest the cash from declining BB07 service revenue until it died, while laying off everyone in hardware. The next best financial choice would have been to kill the hardware division after the Z10 and Q10 failed. If John Chen had wanted to kill hardware when he arrived, he could have done it, and the company would have been in BETTER financial shape today as a result.

    BlackBerry has never mastered the retail channel, and it's unreasonable to think that they ever could have competed on an equal footing with companies like Apple and Samsung who have decades of experience in consumer retail sales. BlackBerry sold their devices directly to corporate and government IT departments. They did sell a lot of devices through retail between 2004 and 2007, but that was because of unexpected demand for smartphones by consumers and the move to BYOD in the workplace. Consumers then jumped to Apple and Android, which were both much more capable devices for everything other than the workmanlike email, calendar, tasks, and phone functions that are Blackberry's strengths.

    John Chen was brought in to turn around BlackBerry the company, not BB10 and not hardware. He inherited a company that was MUCH too large for its revenue base and that had made many, many bad decisions about market strategy in handsets. He tried to continue the BB10 effort with reasonable expenditures, and discovered that the market had declining interest in the platform. Once BB10 dropped below 1% market share, he was willing to listen to those who said they could secure Android on a Blackberry phone.

    Building better phones on a technically superior platform with no inherent consumer demand or channel support through carriers was a steep uphill climb. No tactical changes in phone form factors/specs/design or in marketing communications would have changed that basic calculus.

    Sure they would have sold more phones by spending more money on marketing, but they would have lost even more money doing it.

    Overall, I find the OP's case unconvincing, when the actual evidence has a much simpler explanation.

    Posted via CB10


    Posted via CB10
    anon4226395 likes this.
    11-03-15 08:03 AM
  5. Soulstream's Avatar
    There are lots of what ifs, but not going Android was not a mistake. Not doing it fast enough with key people and a plan was. Why didn't Lazaridis just start hiring top app developers and write RIM/BB10 apps? Or bought or contracted them?
    Not doing it fast enough was the original bad decision (probably made in 2007-2008). But in 2010 another decision had to be made: go Android NOW or wait and build a new OS from scratch.

    The first bad decision (not to start working on a new OS sooner) shouldn't have any impact on the correctness of the second decision (go Android instead of waiting 3 years for BB10).
    Mr4aces likes this.
    11-03-15 08:06 AM
  6. Mr4aces's Avatar
    ...........Building better phones on a technically superior platform with no inherent consumer demand or channel support through carriers was a steep uphill climb. No tactical changes in phone form factors/specs/design or in marketing communications would have changed that basic calculus.

    Sure they would have sold more phones by spending more money on marketing, but they would have lost even more money doing it.

    Overall, I find the OP's case unconvincing, when the actual evidence has a much aim older explanation.

    Posted via CB10
    Well said.

    Throwing money at advertising is marginal at best. The people that cry spend money on advertising and "I" have no inside knowledge. BlackBerry is spending the money where it is more effective. (i.e. Good Technologies)

    I'm going to wait and see before passing judgment.

    I will buy a Priv for my wife because I believe in JC and BlackBerry. The OS might not be perfect, but it will get there in a short time. The last 2 years has shown great strides in the OS.



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    11-03-15 08:07 AM
  7. sorinv's Avatar
    The BlackBerry name died in 2008.
    No young people since then wanted to be associated with BlackBerry. BlackBerry could put out an iphone and it would not sell.
    Priv will not sell except to some current BB10 users just like only a minority of BBOS users switched to BB10 and hardly anyone from IoS or android.
    11-03-15 08:07 AM
  8. Mr4aces's Avatar
    Not doing it fast enough was the original bad decision (probably made in 2007-2008). But in 2010 another decision had to be made: go Android NOW or wait and build a new OS from scratch.

    The first bad decision (not to start working on a new OS sooner) shouldn't have any impact on the correctness of the second decision (go Android instead of waiting 3 years for BB10).
    OR.........
    Joined OHA and used Android for touch devices.

    Keep upgrading OS7 AND develop BB10 with a 2 billion dollar budget.

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    11-03-15 08:18 AM
  9. Mr4aces's Avatar
    The BlackBerry name died in 2008.
    No young people since then wanted to be associated with BlackBerry. BlackBerry could put out an iphone and it would not sell.
    Priv will not sell except to some current BB10 users just like only a minority of BBOS users switched to BB10 and hardly anyone from IoS or android.
    Initially main reason BBOS7 users did not switch because the Q10 did not have a trackball. It was only after that "we" found out BB10 was deplorable.

    I think Priv will sell because of the apps, screen size and pkb. It will do just fine with ATT and Car Warehouse on board. Give it a year and even Best Buy will be selling BlackBerrys.

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    11-03-15 08:32 AM
  10. Soulstream's Avatar
    OR.........
    Joined OHA and used Android for touch devices.

    Keep upgrading OS7 AND develop BB10 with a 2 billion dollar budget.

    PIN 2COF829A
    But, had they joined OHA I don't think the Android runtime in both Playook and BBOS would have been possible. And for a lot of users BB10 without the runtime would mean unable to access a lot of apps.
    11-03-15 08:32 AM
  11. Mr4aces's Avatar
    But, had they joined OHA I don't think the Android runtime in both Playook and BBOS would have been possible. And for a lot of users BB10 without the runtime would mean unable to access a lot of apps.
    OHA was form in 2007.

    No telling what RIM's OS would be now and how PB would or would not have fit in.

    There might been 2 different OS's slowly merging to 1 in 2007-8

    All this is hind sight. Let's support BlackBerry and buy Priv.

    We are getting way off the subject so I'm DONE

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    11-03-15 08:52 AM
  12. Soulstream's Avatar
    OHA was form in 2007.

    No telling what RIM's OS would be now and how PB would or would not have fit in.

    There might been 2 different OS's slowly merging to 1 in 2007-8

    PIN 2COF829A
    But until 2010 BBOS was still doing ok. I think 2010-2011 was the inflexion point where iOS/Android really started getting good and BBOS started to really show its age. Joining the OHA at that point would have been BB conceding that BBOS was done for and somebody else was doing a better job at building an OS than them. I think Mike had too much of an ego for that.
    11-03-15 08:58 AM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I think at this point Chen hopes that selling 1 or 2 android devices combined with existing BB10 devices will bring profitability to the hardware division. I believe Chen's next move, if the Priv proves to be successful, is to release a full touchscreen android device with the exact same specs as the Priv (just take the keyboard off the Priv and make some minor adjustments).

    I think Chen will keep BB10 around, but only for the classic and passport. Also, expect a synergy for specs if regard to form factors for BB10 as this will only blackberry to spend one time for driver development cost and expect blackberry to only release upgraded BB10 device every 2 years or so going forward.

    In total I expect blackberry only to offer 4 devices with android getting the priority and bb10 devices having a much long upgrade replacement cycle.

    If everything holds true to what I have outline, then we might get an upgraded BB10 classic with passport specs either sometime next year or 2017 as way to get the Passport and Classic on the same internals.

    Posted via CB10
    No new BB10 devices because such devices can not have runtime. Only run time made BB10 viable.

    Posted via CB10
    11-03-15 09:01 AM
  14. sorinv's Avatar
    Initially main reason BBOS7 users did not switch because the Q10 did not have a trackball. It was only after that "we" found out BB10 was deplorable.

    I think Priv will sell because of the apps, screen size and pkb. It will do just fine with ATT and Car Warehouse on board. Give it a year and even Best Buy will be selling BlackBerrys.

    PIN 2COF829A
    The "apps" have been tried before with Amazon and even with sideloading.

    Most people who wanted the Google Playstore already moved to other android phones. There is little to bring them back with Priv when BlackBerry keeps saying (and people here who support the android move) they'll most likely abandon handsets.

    It is true that, for the first time since 2013, BlackBerry has carrier support now.
    At least on paper. We will see how real it is on the ground with the carrier sales people.

    None of the bb10 devices were launched all over the world and in the US from day one like Priv.

    That should tell us something. Why?

    But there is nothing special in the Priv that BlackBerry did not do before and already failed to sell in large numbers:
    - great screen (z30, passport, z10, all had best in class screen when they were launched),
    - touch keyboard,
    - android apps (not Google Play)

    I disagree with the comments about BB10.1 and BB10.2.

    To me there were only minor differences. The major difference was in the transition from 10.2 to 10.3.1 and it was NOT for the better.
    It brought android runtime with data mining by Amazon and the app play failed!

    That's when Chen sold our privacy in exchange for apps or something else...

    It was also a surprise to me that people were so confident that BB10 would sell in February 2013 when it was obvious to everyone who used a Playbook (I still do and love it, but I am in the 0.3% and like to stay there) that BB10 was just a minor evolution from the Playbook OS which had NOT been successful.
    It, too, had android apps and runtime. Did not help...

    So, it is about the third time that people think that BlackBerry has solved the app gap with android apps.

    It failed twice before: on the Playbook and with the Amazon store. Every time BlackBerry lost some users and hardly any switched from IoS and android...
    11-03-15 09:02 AM
  15. Mr4aces's Avatar
    But until 2010 BBOS was still doing ok. I think 2010-2011 was the inflexion point where iOS/Android really started getting good and BBOS started to really show its age. Joining the OHA at that point would have been BB conceding that BBOS was done for and somebody else was doing a better job at building an OS than them. I think Mike had too much of an ego for that.
    Start another thread.

    Join in 2007 not 2010

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    11-03-15 09:02 AM
  16. skibnik's Avatar
    But, had they joined OHA I don't think the Android runtime in both Playook and BBOS would have been possible. And for a lot of users BB10 without the runtime would mean unable to access a lot of apps.
    If they had joined the OHA back in 2007 or 08, there would have been no reason to develop BB10 as BBOS would have been relegated for enterprise use and Android would have been used for the consumer market.
    11-03-15 09:03 AM
  17. Mr4aces's Avatar
    The "apps" have been tried before with Amazon and even with sideloading.

    Most people who wanted the Google Playstore already moved to other android phones. There is little to bring them back with Priv when BlackBerry keeps saying (and people here who support the android move) they'll most likely abandon handsets.

    It is true that, for the first time since 2013, BlackBerry has carrier support now.
    At least on paper. We will see how real it is on the ground with the carrier sales people.

    None of the bb10 devices were launched all over the world and in the US from day one like Priv.

    That should tell us something. Why?

    But there is nothing special in the Priv that BlackBerry did not do before and already failed to sell in large numbers:
    - great screen (z30, passport, z10, all had best in class screen when they were launched),
    - touch keyboard,
    - apps.

    I disagree with the comments about BB10.1 and BB10.2.

    To me there were only minor differences. The major difference was in the transition from 10.2 to 10.3.1 and it was NOT for the better.
    It brought android runtime with data mining by Amazon and the app play failed!

    That's when Chen sold our privacy in exchange for apps or something else...

    It was also a surprise to me that people were so confident that BB10 would sell in February 2013 when it was obvious to everyone who used a Playbook (I still do and love it, but I am in the 0.3% and like to stay there) that BB10 was just a minor evolution from the Playbook OS which had NOT been successful.
    It, too, had android apps and runtime. Did not help...

    So, it is about the third time that people think that BlackBerry has solved the app gap with android apps.

    It failed twice before: on the Playbook and with the Amazon store. Every time BlackBerry lost some users and hardly any switched from IoS and android...
    Please read my all my post in this thread. Go back 8 years and analyze. It all would be different now.

    DONE
    Start a new thread

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    11-03-15 09:07 AM
  18. cgk's Avatar
    When people say "it's not chen's idea" - think of the timescale in that article - the head of devices doesn't just randomly have a meeting with google in their first few days. At that level, conversations about what the head of devices would like to do and what they think the strategy should be would have occurred *before* appointment - so Chen would know what he was getting.

    So yes he might have need convincing but that likely happened in the selection process when they were appointing.
    11-03-15 09:13 AM
  19. skibnik's Avatar
    No new BB10 devices because such devices can not have runtime. Only run time made BB10 viable.

    Posted via CB10
    The new developer SDKs for BB10 show no new updates to the Android runtime so more than likely that was the deal that Blackberry cut with Google to abandon the Android runtime on BB10, and build no more new BB10 devices. The remaining supply of Leaps, Classics, and Passports will be enough to service their existing enterprise and government customers.
    11-03-15 09:14 AM
  20. cgk's Avatar
    The new developer SDKs for BB10 show no new updates to the Android runtime so more than likely that was the deal that Blackberry cut with Google to abandon the Android runtime on BB10, and build no more new BB10 devices. The remaining supply of Leaps, Classics, and Passports will be enough to service their existing enterprise and government customers.
    there is a new developer SDK? I thought we weren't getting one?
    11-03-15 09:30 AM
  21. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Did anyone comment on the "agnostic app" statements made by Chen in Jan 2015 ? Perhaps at this time, Chen was trying to get continued access to runtime for BB10 while at the same time making an Android device. He probably wanted to keep BB10 going for a year or two longer.



    Posted via CB10
    11-03-15 09:33 AM
  22. kthhrrsn's Avatar
    Most Android users don't care or worry about security issues as much as Blackberry users do, there are so many different Android devices available that at the moment its all about specs and visual appeal. So yes the Hub and virtual kb etc are nice features but they are not on the forefront of what an average Android user looks for in making a decision on what device they want to purchase.
    Good thing you're here to represent the majority of Android users globally. I'm an Android user as well, and I don't put as much of my sensitive info on those devices as I do on my BlackBerry devices. Many Android users used to be BlackBerry users and lost the faith. Many of them would love to return to BB now that they've released an improved Android experience, which includes improving security.
    11-09-15 09:16 PM
  23. CBJordan's Avatar
    Maybe there is more to this "partnership" than meets the eye. It will be interesting to see how long BlackBerry can sustain itself solely making Android devices, and what conditions were placed on them by Google. Google themselves augmenting Android with BB10/QNX technology, via acquisition is a vastly differently scenario than BlackBerry "securing Android" and selling their own products.

    Posted via CB10
    11-10-15 12:46 AM
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