1. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    OK, so from the same person who's given you speculations about OS6 only running on devices with touchpads and other such things comes another one...

    What's the chance that RIM's recent "refresh" model moves have been done with the sole purpose of not only giving OS6 a bit more room to fit on the devices, but also to possibly secure QNX portability to these handsets?

    Imagine if you will a single core proc at less the 1GHz running 512MB of RAM on QNX and giving you that useless media memory you had sitting free on your phone to be finally used or app and data storage support? Imagine if you will that all new refresh models will get a QNX port after some initial smartphone releases with this new OS already on them... think of it like OS6 is now leaking out for current 256MB+ touchpad/touchscreen models, etc.

    What would that do for RIM in terms of settling everyone's viewpoint on their moves of the past 1-2 years? Discuss...
    09-28-10 12:23 AM
  2. speede541's Avatar
    Very plausible. But that would necessitate the Playbook being a required accessory to all BB owners who measure their device against an Android or iOS4 phone.

    IF the Playbook is able to meet expectations, what sort of adoption rate would you expect? I know it's going to be price dependent. It's also going to mean carrying both devices, which isn't always practical.

    I know it's a horrible example, but I look at the apps I run regularly on my original 9530 Storm and those are mostly the tasks I want to do on the phone, not on a pad: check email, check news, check Facebook, check voice mail, check weather, navigate and check traffic, music, camera, play solitaire on the toilet. And just that is a borderline memory nightmare. Maybe the 9570 S2 "refresh" will make that a non-issue.

    I'm trying to envision the Playbook and what I'd primarily use it for: reviewing documents, web browsing, ebay & Amazon browsing/buying, more involved reading, videos. I can see this replacing my laptop. But still, if the phone is the foundation the Playbook is going to be standing on, then it better be a damn good phone.
    09-28-10 03:43 AM
  3. FineWolf's Avatar
    Actually, if QNX is back-ported to the smartphones, I can see older generation phones (9550 for example) receiving updates.

    The QNX micro-kernel was designed to run on an extremely small footprint. Yes, there is still the GUI and the BlackBerry services to take into account, but the biggest issue right now with the BBJVM OS is the resources required for the kernel itself.
    09-28-10 04:28 AM
  4. The_Engine's Avatar
    Very plausible. But that would necessitate the Playbook being a required accessory to all BB owners who measure their device against an Android or iOS4 phone.

    IF the Playbook is able to meet expectations, what sort of adoption rate would you expect? I know it's going to be price dependent. It's also going to mean carrying both devices, which isn't always practical.

    I know it's a horrible example, but I look at the apps I run regularly on my original 9530 Storm and those are mostly the tasks I want to do on the phone, not on a pad: check email, check news, check Facebook, check voice mail, check weather, navigate and check traffic, music, camera, play solitaire on the toilet. And just that is a borderline memory nightmare. Maybe the 9570 S2 "refresh" will make that a non-issue.

    I'm trying to envision the Playbook and what I'd primarily use it for: reviewing documents, web browsing, ebay & Amazon browsing/buying, more involved reading, videos. I can see this replacing my laptop. But still, if the phone is the foundation the Playbook is going to be standing on, then it better be a damn good phone.
    Ummmm....I think Civic is just talking about the tablet OS being on the 9570/9780. Not sure where you are getting that the Playbook would be required.
    09-28-10 04:49 AM
  5. qbnkelt's Avatar
    I think that it is more likely on the 9570 - I'm not really seeing it on the 9780.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-28-10 06:47 AM
  6. tack's Avatar
    Actually, if QNX is back-ported to the smartphones, I can see older generation phones (9550 for example) receiving updates.

    The QNX micro-kernel was designed to run on an extremely small footprint. Yes, there is still the GUI and the BlackBerry services to take into account, but the biggest issue right now with the BBJVM OS is the resources required for the kernel itself.
    It would certainly please a lot of BB owners and maybe help RIM retain them through the next upgrade if they could port QNX with a good feature set to devices like the Storm 9550. It might keep me.
    09-28-10 07:04 AM
  7. speede541's Avatar
    Ummmm....I think Civic is just talking about the tablet OS being on the 9570/9780. Not sure where you are getting that the Playbook would be required.
    Hmmm... Ok, I wasn't reading her that way, but I see what you're saying. I was interpreting it as the "refresh" phones getting QNX and helping out as a back-end server & storage -- but they'll be doing that anyway, so....

    I'm staying tuned with interest...
    09-28-10 07:20 AM
  8. grahamf's Avatar
    Actually, if QNX is back-ported to the smartphones, I can see older generation phones (9550 for example) receiving updates.

    The QNX micro-kernel was designed to run on an extremely small footprint. Yes, there is still the GUI and the BlackBerry services to take into account, but the biggest issue right now with the BBJVM OS is the resources required for the kernel itself.
    I'd love for that to be true,

    But the current OS is a bunch of Java code running on top of a bare bones JVM.

    so when you upgrade or downgrade your phone basically you are only changing the java files that sit on top of the JVM.

    to upgrade to QNX you would have to replace the JVM with QNX, which would essentially require a ROM re-flashing.

    I do not know if RIM had the foresight to include the ability to change out the JVM on 2 or 1 year old or even current devices.

    However RIM has been working with QNX for a few years now so it's possible.

    I give it a 50-50 chance of even the 9300/9780 being upgradeable
    09-28-10 10:30 AM
  9. Culex316's Avatar
    I'd love for that to be true,

    But the current OS is a bunch of Java code running on top of a bare bones JVM.

    so when you upgrade or downgrade your phone basically you are only changing the java files that sit on top of the JVM.

    to upgrade to QNX you would have to replace the JVM with QNX, which would essentially require a ROM re-flashing.

    I do not know if RIM had the foresight to include the ability to change out the JVM on 2 or 1 year old or even current devices.

    However RIM has been working with QNX for a few years now so it's possible.

    I give it a 50-50 chance of even the 9300/9780 being upgradeable
    If I'm not mistaken, whenever you upgrade a Blackberry OS to a newer version, the JVM itself (which resides in the .sfi file) gets changed out along with the java files. (ever disconnect a Blackberry while Loader is loading "system software"? It just flashes a red light afterwards because the JVM/.sfi file is corrupt and is just running off of the barebones boot ROM.)

    However, whether our current devices would even be compatible with this new QNX-based system does remain to be seen....
    09-28-10 01:41 PM
  10. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    If I'm not mistaken, whenever you upgrade a Blackberry OS to a newer version, the JVM itself (which resides in the .sfi file) gets changed out along with the java files. (ever disconnect a Blackberry while Loader is loading "system software"? It just flashes a red light afterwards because the JVM/.sfi file is corrupt and is just running off of the barebones boot ROM.)

    However, whether our current devices would even be compatible with this new QNX-based system does remain to be seen....
    Very true. The bootloader is the only thing that doesn't change. Think of that kind of like the BIOS or EFI of the phone. What OS is loaded on it depends on the OS being properly coded to work with said BIOS/EFI in terms of hardware communications, nothing more. So, in theory, they could make a QNX OS for the BB that we could upgrade to ourselves without the need of hardware replacement of base factory reflash of the bootloader.

    Now, the big "if" with all this still remains to be seen is whether or not QNX unlocks the ability to use storage flash (i.e. media memory as it's known now) to be used or OS or app loads. If it can, then you're basically looking at an OS that will have 512MB of RAM in addition to the 2 or 4GB of (if the Odin refresh gets 4GB of internal storage upgrade from the S2's 2GB) for OS and app storage. That, to me, would be a pretty robust base config for handsets moving to this new OS. We don't know how much the OS will take up or if it can use this other memory pool for itself and apps yet. I'm guessing we'll probably hear something very soon, but it's hard to see RIM advertising a tablet with 1GB of RAM and 16/32GB of just media memory. (i.e. no apps or anything on that memory pool) If they do that, then they've already lost the tablet battle and the Playbook will fail like all other current BBs have because only having 1GB of memory to run the OS and all the apps that could be made possible by Flash and Air SDK implementation would kill that quickly. It's more then likely that RIM has finally solved the media memory usefulness problem via this QNX OS. It's the only thing that would save them this far along in the game. Anything short of that and they might as well stop trying right now. lol

    So, with that said, I'm waiting to see what RIM announces in terms of QNX flood down to the handsets. If they do what I want to see them do, they'll once again come out on top... with only the cost of 2 years of bad reviews and ticked off customers, which isn't bad in terms of making a turnaround while also keeping mum about the whole thing. If this pans out appropriately, they'll be a lot of happy RIM investors pretty soon... but as always, I'm staying skeptical till the end. I've seen RIM cry wolf too many times in the past to think they'll finally stumble past the proper definition of "hitting one out of the park", but who knows...
    09-28-10 02:42 PM
  11. K Bear's Avatar
    Here's one for you. What if OS5 and OS6 are only building bridges to the next BBOS with QNX? We know that OS6 was supposed to be OS5.x, but went in a whole new direction. The latest of the OS5 devices (9700, 9650, 93xx) all have just enough to make the step to OS6-lite. What if the new OS6 devices are treated in the same way (9800, 9780, 9680, 9570) as the previous group and are only going to be able to reach say OS7-lite?
    09-28-10 05:34 PM
  12. Culex316's Avatar
    Very true. The bootloader is the only thing that doesn't change. Think of that kind of like the BIOS or EFI of the phone. What OS is loaded on it depends on the OS being properly coded to work with said BIOS/EFI in terms of hardware communications, nothing more. So, in theory, they could make a QNX OS for the BB that we could upgrade to ourselves without the need of hardware replacement of base factory reflash of the bootloader.

    Now, the big "if" with all this still remains to be seen is whether or not QNX unlocks the ability to use storage flash (i.e. media memory as it's known now) to be used or OS or app loads. If it can, then you're basically looking at an OS that will have 512MB of RAM in addition to the 2 or 4GB of (if the Odin refresh gets 4GB of internal storage upgrade from the S2's 2GB) for OS and app storage. That, to me, would be a pretty robust base config for handsets moving to this new OS. We don't know how much the OS will take up or if it can use this other memory pool for itself and apps yet. I'm guessing we'll probably hear something very soon, but it's hard to see RIM advertising a tablet with 1GB of RAM and 16/32GB of just media memory. (i.e. no apps or anything on that memory pool) If they do that, then they've already lost the tablet battle and the Playbook will fail like all other current BBs have because only having 1GB of memory to run the OS and all the apps that could be made possible by Flash and Air SDK implementation would kill that quickly. It's more then likely that RIM has finally solved the media memory usefulness problem via this QNX OS. It's the only thing that would save them this far along in the game. Anything short of that and they might as well stop trying right now. lol

    So, with that said, I'm waiting to see what RIM announces in terms of QNX flood down to the handsets. If they do what I want to see them do, they'll once again come out on top... with only the cost of 2 years of bad reviews and ticked off customers, which isn't bad in terms of making a turnaround while also keeping mum about the whole thing. If this pans out appropriately, they'll be a lot of happy RIM investors pretty soon... but as always, I'm staying skeptical till the end. I've seen RIM cry wolf too many times in the past to think they'll finally stumble past the proper definition of "hitting one out of the park", but who knows...

    Here's one for you. What if OS5 and OS6 are only building bridges to the next BBOS with QNX? We know that OS6 was supposed to be OS5.x, but went in a whole new direction. The latest of the OS5 devices (9700, 9650, 93xx) all have just enough to make the step to OS6-lite. What if the new OS6 devices are treated in the same way (9800, 9780, 9680, 9570) as the previous group and are only going to be able to reach say OS7-lite?
    Just enough to make the step to OS6-lite? The Bold 9650 not only has double the Flash storage of its predecessor, but it has four times the amount of SDRAM Bold has 512MB of RAM (as evidenced in the application management screen in OS6 under "Memory") and the Tour only has 128MB of SDRAM(Here's the teardown diagram: http://www.phonewreck.com/wp-content...9/11/Tour1.jpg 1Gb or Gigabit, NOT to be confused with Gigabyte, equals 128MB).


    So for OS6, RIM apparently had to bump up the SDRAM amount big time just to make sure it would run smoothly and also explains why the Tour could not run it despite the OS itself probably being able to fit in Flash storage (not enough memory, the OS itself takes up 177ish MB of SDRAM when running, much more than what the Tour has)

    Assuming the Odin Refresh gets its SDRAM bumped up (and its Flash storage as well), plus that Media Storage Flash, then yeah it's theoretically possible that it could run that QNX-based OS, but knowing RIM, they will most likely just EOL these bitches and churn out all-new devices.
    09-28-10 09:10 PM
  13. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    You do realize that the only thing holding these older devices back now is the RAM amounts in them right? And the fact that the only reason for this is because of the way the current JVM based OS works... right?
    09-28-10 09:24 PM
  14. Culex316's Avatar
    You do realize that the only thing holding these older devices back now is the RAM amounts in them right? And the fact that the only reason for this is because of the way the current JVM based OS works... right?
    Yeah, I know RAM is what holds the older devices back thanks to RIM being very cheap with it, but I can't say I know how it relates to the JVM OS.
    09-28-10 09:28 PM
  15. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Well, RAM, but mostly the way the stupid JVM based OS only uses RAM to do everything. If QNX is what it's all cracked up to be (yes, pun intended ) they'll start using media memory for the OS and app installs and use RAM like traditional systems use it... just for active processing, instead of loading the entire JVM OS into it on each boot. Last time I checked, I stopped using RAMDRIVE in 1992.
    09-28-10 09:45 PM
  16. Rootbrian's Avatar
    QNX can be downsized to run within a ROM chip (not sure what size), says so on the wikipedia page.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-28-10 09:49 PM
  17. MadGoat1979's Avatar
    Here is an interesting thought,

    Everyone was intrigued with rim's decision to use the "same o'l" processor in the torch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would using a different processor architechure require a different OS kernel? Maybe (just maybe) rim had planned on QNX to be able to run on the last generation of phones released before the playbook. (Also playing in with the built in flash increase we see with the 9700 and newer phones). Ganted, I havnt seen any reports on what processor the playbook will/is using... But if its a marvell (that's what is in our phones right?) Then we can almost get excited to see QNX on our handsets... Just a thought.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-10 12:09 AM
  18. thej's Avatar
    very interesting thread on QNX ! need to follow and understand..
    09-30-10 01:03 AM
  19. MadGoat1979's Avatar
    Well,

    Just snooping around it looks like the playbook will be using a A9 generation proc. Looks like people are betting on the TI OMAP proc more than tegra 2. Marvell apparently have a multicore processor but is not using ARM's A9 layout. Instead is using a tri-core setup. Sooo, my previous post is pretty much shot out of the water I guess... Seeing as our processors now are older Xscale type processors.

    Can anyone comment on how difficult it would be to port an OS designed to run on a A9 architechture to to run on a pxa9xx type proc? Would it be all that different really?...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-10 05:56 AM
  20. The_Engine's Avatar
    Well,

    Just snooping around it looks like the playbook will be using a A9 generation proc. Looks like people are betting on the TI OMAP proc more than tegra 2. Marvell apparently have a multicore processor but is not using ARM's A9 layout. Instead is using a tri-core setup. Sooo, my previous post is pretty much shot out of the water I guess... Seeing as our processors now are older Xscale type processors.

    Can anyone comment on how difficult it would be to port an OS designed to run on a A9 architechture to to run on a pxa9xx type proc? Would it be all that different really?...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Look at the chips QNX supports. It just about supports them all now.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-10 06:50 AM
  21. The_Engine's Avatar
    The biggest reason for RIM to work on getting a QNX OS on older devices woupd be developers and apps. Once they get the Playbook and a Storm and a Torch out there using it they should look to getting older devices that did not get 6 on the New OS of they can. App developers don't like fragmentation and its great that there are 40 million BB's out there, but when they are running 4.x and 5.x OS what does it matter how good the SDK is getting for BB6 and Tablet OS?

    I am sure it won't happen and we'll all just get new phones as our contracts come up, but would be awesome to see a S2 using the 256 memory for the OS, and 2gb of onboard memorey for apps and really use that CPU/GPU combo that it has.

    Who knows maybe the refresh will be able to Handle QNX.

    If I knew that was possible I'd be far more likely to get one.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-10 07:00 AM
  22. allengeorge's Avatar
    It's almost certain that we'll never see a QNX-based OS on the older BB phones. From a planning and engineering standpoint it just isn't worth it, and the resources are much better spent supporting upcoming products.
    09-30-10 07:11 AM
  23. mechanic_joe's Avatar
    Now, the big "if" with all this still remains to be seen is whether or not QNX unlocks the ability to use storage flash (i.e. media memory as it's known now) to be used or OS or app loads. If it can, then you're basically looking at an OS that will have 512MB of RAM in addition to the 2 or 4GB of (if the Odin refresh gets 4GB of internal storage upgrade from the S2's 2GB) for OS and app storage. That, to me, would be a pretty robust base config for handsets moving to this new OS. We don't know how much the OS will take up or if it can use this other memory pool for itself and apps yet. I'm guessing we'll probably hear something very soon, but it's hard to see RIM advertising a tablet with 1GB of RAM and 16/32GB of just media memory. (i.e. no apps or anything on that memory pool) If they do that, then they've already lost the tablet battle and the Playbook will fail like all other current BBs have because only having 1GB of memory to run the OS and all the apps that could be made possible by Flash and Air SDK implementation would kill that quickly. It's more then likely that RIM has finally solved the media memory usefulness problem via this QNX OS. It's the only thing that would save them this far along in the game. Anything short of that and they might as well stop trying right now. lol
    I agree 100%, and I'm almost positive the playbook wouldn't be limited to just RAM/ROM space for it's applications... that said, I can see RIM easily waiting until next year's devices to be OS7 (or whatever they're going to call the QNX OS) to be compatible. I just can't see some of the current (9650 528mhz?) processors being sufficient. A long time ago I brought up the thought of RIM storing apps to their 'onboard media memory' as it just doesn't make sense to support 32GB SD cards, and have 2 or 4GB onboard media memory just for show. So, who knows, maybe they'll make a very 'light' version of the QNX OS for older devices... one can certainly hope and dream
    09-30-10 07:58 AM
  24. grahamf's Avatar
    So, most likely the very latest/upcoming devices will support QNX.
    the current generation (9550, 9700) should be able to run QNX, and they probably will.
    the previous generation (9530, 9000) theoretically can and it would be a boon to RIM's image in places where these devices are prevalent (china just launched the 9530 iirc), but not so likely.
    09-30-10 09:35 AM
  25. The_Engine's Avatar
    So, most likely the very latest/upcoming devices will support QNX.
    the current generation (9550, 9700) should be able to run QNX, and they probably will.
    the previous generation (9530, 9000) theoretically can and it would be a boon to RIM's image in places where these devices are prevalent (china just launched the 9530 iirc), but not so likely.
    I don't even think you'll see QNX on Current Generation (9550/9700). I think it's a big maybe on any BB6 device (9800, 9780, 9570) and only definite on Next Gen of devices, whatever they are, and whenever they show up.

    I am guessing Mid/late 2011 we see a Storm and a Torch running a Smartphone Variant of the Tablet OS. BB7??? After that we may see it show up as an Upgrade for the Refreshes.

    But I think they are using QNX Os for A9 based chip sets to really make use of the multi cores. Earlier chip sets (like the ones in all BB's out now, or expected out this year ::sneezes "Refreshes!": may not get QNX just based on this dividing line. I say that mostly because of the focus on MultiCores in the announcement of QNX. Maybe that was just talking up the Playbook, or maybe that is the line of demarcation between BB6 and QNX.
    09-30-10 11:50 AM
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