02-02-12 11:08 PM
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  1. BBPandy's Avatar
    Why the 7 PB could be great for Pilots

    I read 9 pages of the http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...weight-693415/ thread before getting sick of it (it was mainly people chatting about anything but what the OP.....Maybe hes a Troll, maybe not...either way he did make valid points so I wouldnt call him a blatant troll. "d.hutchin" makes some valid points. We HAVE been promised a lot of things from RIM & not had them delivered. However it looks like that is finally changing in the next couple weeks..btw I never teather, Bridge is WAY better

    What I like about the PB over the iPad is its size. It fits perfectly into my flight bag. Its so handy to pull out & use while waiting for a flight, or maybe a crew car. The iPad is too big. Once I get to the crew house or hotel then an iPad would work greatbut now that Im able to sit back & relax at a table/desk, why use an iPad when a laptop or ultrabook would work better? An iPad is just as portable as an ultrabook & a lot more fragile. Now the iPad does have Jeppesens Flight View & Flight Deck Suit so you can view your approach plates and enroute charts. I WISH Jepp would hurry up & release one for the PB because approach plates ect are aprox 7x5 inches (about the same size as the PB) Rotorwrench has posted about how is co-workers attach PBs to their Yokes to display HQ terrain maps. I think Jepp is missing the boat here.Im sure a lot of small operators would love to go paperless & an iPad is too big for the cockpit. I am already seeing newer corp jets & some major airlines going paperless with multi-thousand dollar screens, & guess what, they are all about 7. The only time I really want/need a 10 screen is on my PFD & MFD.

    The PB is lacking yesBUT it could be Great, as its the PERFECT size for Pilots..unlike the iPad which is too big.

    Now if you will excuse me, it's 12:30 am, so I'm going to finish this vodka & go to bed
    02-02-12 02:33 AM
  2. fenlander's Avatar
    sorry, i just have this image of a pilot playing angry birds or surfing the web when i,d much rather he was paying attention to flying the plane! (not great with flying, me)
    02-02-12 03:18 AM
  3. BBPandy's Avatar
    sorry, i just have this image of a pilot playing angry birds or surfing the web when i,d much rather he was paying attention to flying the plane! (not great with flying, me)
    What? don't worry,
    Your Pilot won't be playing "Angry Birds"
    ....Pilots prefer to play "Flying Penguin"
    .....gota save them from those mean Polar Bears

    [YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG8iAI4Jakw&feature=related[/YT]
    02-02-12 03:32 AM
  4. kevinnugent's Avatar
    Isn't there a 7" tablet also from Samsung? If size is the only pre-requisite.....
    02-02-12 05:54 AM
  5. alnamvet68's Avatar
    Fits nicely on a kneeboard; slips perfectly into the multiple zippered pocket s of a flight suit.
    rotorwrench and peter9477 like this.
    02-02-12 06:12 AM
  6. Snipperdo17's Avatar
    many airlines are already going paperless with iPads. I doubt any of them will switch to the PlayBook and then everyone will move to the iPad unfortunately.
    02-02-12 06:25 AM
  7. mark37724's Avatar
    Any pilot I've ever met are so cheap that they use both sides of toilet paper so the playbook price is probably a great incentive for them as well.
    02-02-12 06:59 AM
  8. BBPandy's Avatar
    Isn't there a 7" tablet also from Samsung? If size is the only pre-requisite.....
    yea, but this was mainly a PB vs iPad Post
    02-02-12 11:30 AM
  9. BBPandy's Avatar
    many airlines are already going paperless with iPads. I doubt any of them will switch to the PlayBook and then everyone will move to the iPad unfortunately.
    some are...not many. The only major airline I know of is American Airlines, & they declared bankrupty a couple months after implementing it.

    (there are a number of other airlines that are looking into the advantages of using iPads)
    02-02-12 11:37 AM
  10. brucep1's Avatar
    Didn't the iPad already get some in flight certification for pilots?
    02-02-12 12:16 PM
  11. BBPandy's Avatar
    Didn't the iPad already get some in flight certification for pilots?
    Yea American Airlines got the FAA to certify it 2 months ago so they could use it. It's flight certification is specifically for AA
    02-02-12 01:10 PM
  12. rotorwrench's Avatar
    many airlines are already going paperless with iPads. I doubt any of them will switch to the PlayBook and then everyone will move to the iPad unfortunately.
    First of all, electronic chart viewers have been around longer than iPads or any of the other tablets. Being used as Class 1 devices. Second, any tablet that will display current certified charts, approach plates, Jepp mobile Flitedeck, Jepp Nav Suite etc.... is eligible for approval in part 121 aircraft. Tablets are already being used in part 91 and 135 aircraft. American Airlines and Alaska Airlines were first to get approval, iPads just happening to be the hardware. Interesting also that AA put Galaxy Tabs in the cabin for 1st class and Business travelers. Not many and not iPads: Delta and others are evaluating the Galaxy Tab and Windows tablets. On most of the ATP forums you'll find 7" is the preferred size for the cockpit, that's why the Garmin 696 is becoming the portable of choice for nav and weather use. The PB mounts nicely on the yoke also.

    We've found many aviation uses for the PB, in rotorcraft as well as fixed wing. I assure you, if someone can find a way to run Flitedeck on the PB, it would hands down be the choice of pilots. We have found some work arounds, but apps would be nice. I had a customer that wanted me to mount his iPad on his yoke and after several adjustments it became clear it was just too large for comfortable use, in my opinion, as well as his. I ended up mounting it by the copilot door post. Any other location interfered with panel view and function. I mounted my PB on his yoke for kicks and he was sold. The only drawback being the lack of a Jepp app.

    I seriously doubt tablets will become a mainstay in cockpits, except legacy installations, logistic and flightbag use. Late production aircraft integrate GL1000 type systems, displaying everything a tablet will and they're integrated into the instrument panel.
    alnamvet68 likes this.
    02-02-12 01:10 PM
  13. alnamvet68's Avatar
    Jepp's Mobile FliteDeck will be an app that will be evaluated by the good folks at Mother Rucker as soon as it's launched, btw...unfortunately, it's only being developed for Apple, but I've heard through sources that there's a request for a PlayBook app put in by the USAAC.
    rotorwrench likes this.
    02-02-12 01:31 PM
  14. aazidane's Avatar
    QNX is already used for fighter jet avionics.
    02-02-12 02:48 PM
  15. d.hutchin's Avatar
    Why the 7” PB could be great for Pilots

    I read 9 pages of the http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...weight-693415/ thread before getting sick of it (it was mainly people chatting about anything but what the OP.....Maybe he’s a Troll, maybe not...either way he did make valid points so I wouldn’t call him a blatant troll. "d.hutchin" makes some valid points. We HAVE been promised a lot of things from RIM & not had them delivered. However it looks like that is finally changing in the next couple weeks…..btw I never teather, Bridge is WAY better

    What I like about the PB over the iPad is it’s size. It fits perfectly into my flight bag. It’s so handy to pull out & use while waiting for a flight, or maybe a crew car. The iPad is too big. Once I get to the crew house or hotel then an iPad would work great…but now that I’m able to sit back & relax at a table/desk, why use an iPad when a laptop or ultrabook would work better? An iPad is just as portable as an ultrabook & a lot more fragile. Now the iPad does have Jeppesens Flight View & Flight Deck Suit so you can view your approach plates and enroute charts. I WISH Jepp would hurry up & release one for the PB because approach plates ect are aprox 7x5 inches (about the same size as the PB) “Rotorwrench” has posted about how is co-workers attach PBs to their Yokes to display HQ terrain maps. I think Jepp is missing the boat here….I’m sure a lot of small operators would love to go paperless & an iPad is too big for the cockpit. I am already seeing newer corp jets & some major airlines going paperless with multi-thousand dollar screens, & guess what, they are all about 7”. The only time I really want/need a 10” screen is on my PFD & MFD.

    The PB is lacking yes…BUT it could be Great, as it’s the PERFECT size for Pilots…..unlike the iPad which is too big.

    Now if you will excuse me, it's 12:30 am, so I'm going to finish this vodka & go to bed
    I am the OP from the thread you quoted and personally, i have to dissagree. I am not an ipad fan infact i hate apple which is why im going for a 10 inch android tab. Jepp view and Flight deck suit is not available yet for the android yet publicly but jepp has said they are working on it and there is at least 1 major carrier conducting private trials with jepp using multiple platforms of which android is one so im confident it will come soon.

    In the mean time tho, u can always download the pdfs of the approach plates for example and view them on your tablet this is where for me the playbook fell down. When i bought the playbook i thought the same thing as the average approach plate is about the same size as the playbook i thought hey it is just the right size. As it turns out though the PB screen is slighly smaller and on top of that look at the average pdf of an approach plate and you will see that around the side is whitespace margin.

    That whitspace margin makes the plate artificially bigger than it is which when u bring it up on the PB forces you to either have to scroll and as such not be able to see the entire plate at once OR zoom out enough to view the entire plate if you do that though the text especially for notes etc is often too small.

    I dont have a need for attaching the PB to a yoke or anything else like that, the airplanes i fly are fully EFIS equiped with FMS etc so really i just want the PB to be able to do a few basic things (in the cockpit anyway) display approach charts in actual size, display the company FCOM pages in actual size, display aircraft flight/systems manuals in full page size.

    The 7 inch format doesent enable me to do that really. As for the size i dunno what your flying but our cockpits are more than big enough to accomodate the ipad or any other larger tablet (many of our other crew members have ipads/ipad2s) and they fit fine on the maptables we have to the side. They also seem to fit into most professional flight bags that i have seen quite comfortably so i dont know what thats about.

    Admittedly, if Jeppesen had some kind of chartviewer/flight deck suit that was tailored to the pb that displayed the approach charts without all that dead space in the margin so that the plate was being displayed in actual 7x5...then maybe but as of right no thats not the case.

    If your flying a single or a light twin i could see how the ipad might be a bit unwieldy but its not really an issue size wize in larger aircraft, at least in my experiance.
    Last edited by d.hutchin; 02-02-12 at 03:21 PM.
    rjak707 likes this.
    02-02-12 03:18 PM
  16. Economist101's Avatar
    Why the 7” PB could be great for Pilots

    I read 9 pages of the http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...weight-693415/ thread before getting sick of it (it was mainly people chatting about anything but what the OP.....Maybe he’s a Troll, maybe not...either way he did make valid points so I wouldn’t call him a blatant troll. "d.hutchin" makes some valid points. We HAVE been promised a lot of things from RIM & not had them delivered. However it looks like that is finally changing in the next couple weeks…..btw I never teather, Bridge is WAY better

    What I like about the PB over the iPad is it’s size. It fits perfectly into my flight bag. It’s so handy to pull out & use while waiting for a flight, or maybe a crew car. The iPad is too big. Once I get to the crew house or hotel then an iPad would work great…but now that I’m able to sit back & relax at a table/desk, why use an iPad when a laptop or ultrabook would work better? An iPad is just as portable as an ultrabook & a lot more fragile. Now the iPad does have Jeppesens Flight View & Flight Deck Suit so you can view your approach plates and enroute charts. I WISH Jepp would hurry up & release one for the PB because approach plates ect are aprox 7x5 inches (about the same size as the PB) “Rotorwrench” has posted about how is co-workers attach PBs to their Yokes to display HQ terrain maps. I think Jepp is missing the boat here….I’m sure a lot of small operators would love to go paperless & an iPad is too big for the cockpit. I am already seeing newer corp jets & some major airlines going paperless with multi-thousand dollar screens, & guess what, they are all about 7”. The only time I really want/need a 10” screen is on my PFD & MFD.

    The PB is lacking yes…BUT it could be Great, as it’s the PERFECT size for Pilots…..unlike the iPad which is too big.

    Now if you will excuse me, it's 12:30 am, so I'm going to finish this vodka & go to bed
    Out of the entire post, the item that matters most is what's in bold, which is that the iPad has the software today, and the PlayBook doesn't. As long as that line is true, "portability," along with every other PlayBook advantage, is meaningless. You say Jepp is missing the boat, but Jepp didn't begin supporting the iPad because they were hoping people would buy iPads for flight decks; they began supporting the iPad because their customers had iPads anyway. At this point, there simply haven't been enough PlayBook sales to credibly argue that Jepp is missing any boat by not supporting the PlayBook. That may one day change, but it hasn't happened yet.
    02-02-12 03:29 PM
  17. BBPandy's Avatar
    American Airlines and Alaska Airlines were first to get approval.
    I knew Alaska Airlines was evaluating the iPad, I didn't relize that they had descided to use it.

    I seriously doubt tablets will become a mainstay in cockpits, except legacy installations, logistic and flightbag use. Late production aircraft integrate GL1000 type systems, displaying everything a tablet will and they're integrated into the instrument panel.
    I agree. However I think they can be VERY usefull for logistic and flightbag use. If it's true that the USAAC has requested Jepp look at the PB, maybe it will happen. Afterall a USAAC contract would definitly bring in some $$$. All they would have to do is develop it in HTML5 & they could quickly have plates on both Android & BlackBerry devices........provided HTML5 is powerfull enouph to have all the intergrated GPS features...
    02-02-12 03:45 PM
  18. BBPandy's Avatar
    I am the OP from the thread you quoted and personally, I have to disagree. I am not an ipad fan in fact i hate apple which is why Im going for a 10 inch android tab. Jepp view and Flight deck suit is not available yet for the android yet publicly but jepp has said they are working on it and there is at least 1 major carrier conducting private trials with jepp using multiple platforms of which android is one so Im confident it will come soon.

    In the mean time though, u can always download the pdfs of the approach plates for example and view them on your tablet this is where for me the playbook fell down. When i bought the playbook i thought the same thing as the average approach plate is about the same size as the playbook i thought hey it is just the right size. As it turns out though the PB screen is slightly smaller and on top of that look at the average pdf of an approach plate and you will see that around the side is whitespace margin.

    That whitspace margin makes the plate artificially bigger than it is which when u bring it up on the PB forces you to either have to scroll and as such not be able to see the entire plate at once OR zoom out enough to view the entire plate if you do that though the text especially for notes etc is often too small.

    I dont have a need for attaching the PB to a yoke or anything else like that, the airplanes i fly are fully EFIS equipped with FMS etc so really i just want the PB to be able to do a few basic things (in the cockpit anyway) display approach charts in actual size, display the company FCOM pages in actual size, display aircraft flight/systems manuals in full page size.

    The 7 inch format doesnt enable me to do that really. As for the size i dont know what your flying but our cockpits are more than big enough to accommodate the ipad or any other larger tablet (many of our other crew members have ipads/ipad2s) and they fit fine on the maptables we have to the side. They also seem to fit into most professional flight bags that i have seen quite comfortably so i dont know what thats about.

    Admittedly, if Jeppesen had some kind of chartviewer/flight deck suit that was tailored to the pb that displayed the approach charts without all that dead space in the margin so that the plate was being displayed in actual 7x5...then maybe but as of right no thats not the case.

    If your flying a single or a light twin i could see how the iPad might be a bit unwieldy but its not really an issue size wise in larger aircraft, at least in my experience.

    You bring up a good point about the white space. If Jepp were to come out with a PB app they would have to get rid of that wasted space.

    Tablets in the Cockpit
    I don't often delve into the COM while in the cockpit, so for the few times that I do, I'm ok with pulling out an ultrabook (or the binders) When it comes to the AFM/systems manuals I too want them in full page size. But a 10" tablet doesn't do that either, so I would want to have something with a bigger screen. Unless I'm just glancing at them to reference something, I usually find what I want & then print the diagrams ect. so I can really study them. Once again this takes the iPad (or any other tab out of the equation.

    I fly midsized twins. We don't have much room for anything much bigger then a PB. However if we did...why would we use an 10.1" tablet when we can use a way more versatile 11.7" Ultrabook running the soon to be released Windows 8?


    Tablets in the Flight Bag
    I often have 2 bags that I carry with me. One is a Briefcase box like bag. This is great for Books, Manuals, Laptops, iPads ect. The other bag is a smaller canvas bag that has my headset, charts, maps, pens, & maybe a couple granola bars (providing I'm not going international) That bag is what I use most often & it's easy to slide things in & out of it. It has pockets specifically designed for charts ect. The airline provides me with the required charts ect so what do I put into that specifically designed space? a PB...fit's perfectly

    When walking around the terminal, or sitting in the taxi heading to the hotel the portable PB is what I grab. Why take all the effort to open up my Big flight bag? (which in the case of the taxi would be in the trunk) Once we arrive at the hotel, I put down my PB & get out my laptop...

    Today vs Tomorrow
    As it stands today, the PB is not very useful for a pilot as there are not many Aviation related apps designed for it. However I think that form factor holds a lot of potential for Pilots....more so then a 10" one.

    The Perfect Flying Pilot Combo?
    A Smart Phone - (I recommend the BB 9900)
    A 7" Tablet - (I recommend the Playbook...though they could increase the display screen size by making the bezel skinnier)
    A Laptop - (I recommend the Window 8 Ultralights that we saw at CES)
    rotorwrench likes this.
    02-02-12 04:40 PM
  19. CrackCargo's Avatar
    Howdy - I am a Boeing 777 Captain for a major international airline which currently does not have certification for use of any kind of tablet or ultrabook or whatever. The certification AA received from the FAA was that they could be used during takeoff and landing. The use of such devices was always OK during all other phases of flight. Whomever stated that the reason that ipads are the choice is that the users already had ipads is correct. If RIM had jumped ahead with apps and the sales were big, the PB would be in the mix, but sadly, that is not the case.
    It is probably only a matter of time before many brands and types are approved, we shall see. I load the PB with all sorts of airport and route info (from our company website library) for review while enroute, as well as in the hotel before a flight. If I am a "relief" crewmember, I am in a seat behind the primary crew, and I use the PB (not during takeoff or landing) to back up the primary crew with taxi instructions and arrival/departure procedures. It works great! The zoom as well as dragging the image around is fantastic, and the fidelity of the image helps a great deal.
    Those with ipads usually ask "what is that?" when I use the PB, and then ask how I load the documents and manuals. When I describe how easy it is to load and use, the response is usually "the ipad is a lot harder than that..."
    C'mon, RIM....get on it....let's get the apps and such going and show what a great device it is !!!
    02-02-12 05:45 PM
  20. BBPandy's Avatar
    @ CrackCargo
    I assume your talking about just loading pdf file right?...or do you have another system?
    02-02-12 05:53 PM
  21. CrackCargo's Avatar
    @ CrackCargo
    I assume your talking about just loading pdf file right?...or do you have another system?
    Yes.....the docs are in .pdf format, and of course, very easy to load on the PB. I use the "Air" Browser, very quick and nicely organized.....
    02-02-12 06:18 PM
  22. rotorwrench's Avatar
    I knew Alaska Airlines was evaluating the iPad, I didn't relize that they had descided to use it.



    I agree. However I think they can be VERY usefull for logistic and flightbag use. If it's true that the USAAC has requested Jepp look at the PB, maybe it will happen. Afterall a USAAC contract would definitly bring in some $$$. All they would have to do is develop it in HTML5 & they could quickly have plates on both Android & BlackBerry devices........provided HTML5 is powerfull enouph to have all the intergrated GPS features...
    You're right, they haven't implemented them yet, to my knowledge. And as to the size not being a factor as mentioned by another poster, that may be his opinion, but not all share it. We interact with 121 pilots often and I've heard more opinions that a 10" pad was too large than not. Yes, some cockpits are larger than others, but space is still limited and many pilots prefer smaller devices.

    As I've said, we've managed to make good use of the PB in aircraft as well as in the field, but with more useful apps, the sky is the limit
    02-02-12 06:31 PM
  23. jimpilot's Avatar
    Use the IPad and it does seem to big. My playbook would be just perfect, hopefully Jeppesen will include the playbook in the future.

    Oh I fly the GV.
    rotorwrench likes this.
    02-02-12 06:33 PM
  24. rotorwrench's Avatar
    Yes.....the docs are in .pdf format, and of course, very easy to load on the PB. I use the "Air" Browser, very quick and nicely organized.....
    That's the format we use for A plates and some charts.
    02-02-12 06:35 PM
  25. BBPandy's Avatar
    Q: How do I get Jeppesen Mobile FliteDeck?
    A: Jeppesen Mobile FliteDeck is available for download from the Apple App Store. Initially, it is available for iPad, although Jeppesen is actively evaluating other tablet and mobile devices, based on customer demand.
    So it would seem that they are thinking of opening it up to other Tablets....also they currently use pdfs for their charts but are planing on switching to epubs...Once we get Sype on the PB we should start a Jepp petition
    rotorwrench likes this.
    02-02-12 07:40 PM
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