01-12-12 06:20 PM
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  1. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Mr. Eggs, if that's your real name, I admit that I am discounting the option of building something for that price range largely on the basis that I believe Apple will continue to offer the iPad 2, not at $399, but $349. That is what the original iPad went for on refurb when the iPad 2 came out.

    I am also basing my assumption on the idea that there is no tablet market, just an iPad market. This assumption is easily tested by a thought experiment. Offer the iPad at the same price as the cheapest competitor. In that eventuality, the nearest competitor gets fitted for cement boots. $349 kills everything from $300 on up.

    I admittedly could be wrong about either of those assumptions. However, to date, the market has not proven me so. Perhaps RIM will be the ones to prove that there is a substantial market of people who want something other than the iPad and not just something cheaper.
    ...and your thought experiment points out the arrogance of RIM to think their Blackberry brand name was worth as much to consumers as Apple's impressive selection of apps. That was their biggest problem; as I say, had they introduced each model at $150 less they still would have been profiting on the 32GB and 64GB models, and more importantly, they would have moved a lot more machines out to consumers, making the platform more attractive to developers.

    However, the app selection is already miles better than launch, and Android will only make the platform more attractive. That's why the relaunch has a chance.
    01-07-12 08:08 PM
  2. dandbj13's Avatar
    However, the app selection is already miles better than launch, and Android will only make the platform more attractive. That's why the relaunch has a chance.
    So this is the part that is most heartbreaking to me. The belief that adding Android app support will improve the app situation is tragic. In fact, it is suicide! If you think developers are slow to write apps for the product, now, just wait till there is Android support. Native app development is about to cease altogether. From that point, on, the PB is nothing more than JAAT: just another Android tablet.

    People buying it for the apps will quickly realize that it does not have all of the Android apps, just a subset of what certain developers chose to port, and what RIM approved. They will read about some interesting app and try to find it for the PB, only to be disappointed more times than not. They may also discover the subtile frustrations of what is essentially an emulation environment on a tablet. The apps will not really be PB nor Android, but some compromise that the consumer did not sign on for.

    Then, as per the thread topic, there's price. The PB JAAT will have a compromised app experience and an uncompetitive entertainment ecosystem for rich media. It will be viewed as a JAAT and perhaps priced like a JAAT, but will have compromises that make it less than an Android tablet and less than a RIM product. No matter how you explain it, corporations are not going to like the fact that Android apps are on board. Then, there is the rooting... I cried a little when I heard that RIM had sold its soul to allow Android apps in hopes of solving the "app tonnage" problem. Once it becomes just another Android tablet, it is no longer a BB.

    Again, I would love to be wrong.
    TGR1 likes this.
    01-07-12 08:28 PM
  3. Lead_Express's Avatar
    If it has the features, quality,and ecosystem they should go as high as they can sell it for...just like every other business does. The thing is, it has to launch as the total package. It basically needs to be a tab that can do everything a laptop can do.
    01-07-12 09:33 PM
  4. kevinnugent's Avatar
    Isn't it nice to have a good debate without the usual tangents and personal attacks!?
    01-07-12 10:06 PM
  5. jrwarren's Avatar
    You've been waiting almost a whole year? Sounds like you just purchased your Playbook. $249 for 32 GB just recently happened.
    nope, just pointing out alot of peoples dissapointment. Yup I just purchased mine when I felt the price was right. I could have purchased a Kindle Fire for less, and rooted it and made it a proper tablet.
    Last edited by jrwarren; 01-07-12 at 10:29 PM.
    01-07-12 10:10 PM
  6. jrwarren's Avatar
    Address your issue with Hulu or get SimpleBrowser and set the User Agent to FireFox [edit: SimpleBrowser isn't enough to fool Hulu as it seems to detect the Flash platform. My bad. Complain to Hulu.].
    Actually BB should step up and fix the browser so hulu can't block it. Simple eh?
    A rooted playbook can do it why can't BB fix it with out rooting? Because they want a hulu plust app.

    The whole issue is this, Blackberry tried and fell short. Great tablet, great os, but no app market. With this firesale alot of people are coming in my self included and seeing this what the Diehard fans refuse to see. With out some sort of major change for the playbook its history. Sorry but that is how I see it.

    Imagine the Kindle Fire with out Amazon market, picture it. Now look at your Playbook.
    01-07-12 10:22 PM
  7. cbvinh's Avatar
    Is it possible for RIM to produce a tablet that customers in Indonesia can afford, and Americans will want, and shareholders will applaud? I just don't think so.
    They could just make a tablet everyone wants, regardless of price, and the shareholders will be happy too! Realistically, start at the mid-end and let the older versions become the cheaper ones just due to parts becoming cheaper.
    jrwarren likes this.
    01-07-12 10:39 PM
  8. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    Isn't it nice to have a good debate without the usual tangents and personal attacks!?
    Amen Brother... Level headed discussions win out in every instance...
    01-07-12 10:39 PM
  9. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    If it has the features, quality,and ecosystem they should go as high as they can sell it for...just like every other business does. The thing is, it has to launch as the total package. It basically needs to be a tab that can do everything a laptop can do.
    And possibly and some type of mobile service...?? That could be the "No Man's Land" that needs to be staked-out and settled.
    01-07-12 10:42 PM
  10. cbvinh's Avatar
    So this is the part that is most heartbreaking to me. The belief that adding Android app support will improve the app situation is tragic. In fact, it is suicide! If you think developers are slow to write apps for the product, now, just wait till there is Android support. Native app development is about to cease altogether. From that point, on, the PB is nothing more than JAAT: just another Android tablet.

    People buying it for the apps will quickly realize that it does not have all of the Android apps, just a subset of what certain developers chose to port, and what RIM approved. They will read about some interesting app and try to find it for the PB, only to be disappointed more times than not. They may also discover the subtile frustrations of what is essentially an emulation environment on a tablet. The apps will not really be PB nor Android, but some compromise that the consumer did not sign on for.

    Then, as per the thread topic, there's price. The PB JAAT will have a compromised app experience and an uncompetitive entertainment ecosystem for rich media. It will be viewed as a JAAT and perhaps priced like a JAAT, but will have compromises that make it less than an Android tablet and less than a RIM product. No matter how you explain it, corporations are not going to like the fact that Android apps are on board. Then, there is the rooting... I cried a little when I heard that RIM had sold its soul to allow Android apps in hopes of solving the "app tonnage" problem. Once it becomes just another Android tablet, it is no longer a BB.

    Again, I would love to be wrong.
    If Android developers make money from just repackaging, that means all developers will see there's a market. Since not all Android apps will be portable, that missing segment of apps will be available for native developers to thrive in. Further, if given a choice between an Android app or a faster native app, the user will most likely pick the native app. There's still opportunity there for the native developer.

    Developers still jump into the crowded iOS and Android markets because of the number of users. The webOS market is growing, even with an uncertain future, due to number of users. Android apps will make current Playbook users happy and hopefully gain users for QNX/BB10, while giving a market to native developers.

    As a user, I don't care if Netflix (or whatever) is native or not. If it operates as expected, then so be it. It's one lost job for a native developer, but I'd rather him/her concentrate on an app I can't get from the Android market.
    01-07-12 11:24 PM
  11. cbvinh's Avatar
    nope, just pointing out alot of peoples dissapointment. Yup I just purchased mine when I felt the price was right. I could have purchased a Kindle Fire for less, and rooted it and made it a proper tablet.
    I got a Touchpad when they went firesale, but the size is too large for my traveling needs. Plus, the recent Torch 9850 made for a perfect combo. Over the holidays, I traveled about, used the Playbook and didn't have to seek out any wi-fi. It's a great feature when you have unlimited data and no mobile tethering fees.

    The Kindle Fire, even if rooted, would never be a proper travel tablet for me. No mic kills any chance for VOIP. I would like video chat too, via Skype (or some other simple system I could explain to my parents) if possible, and the Playbook has potential for that too. No chance with the Kindle Fire. Finally, GPS navigation. That's desired as well. No go on the Fire.
    jrwarren likes this.
    01-07-12 11:39 PM
  12. cbvinh's Avatar
    Actually BB should step up and fix the browser so hulu can't block it. Simple eh?
    A rooted playbook can do it why can't BB fix it with out rooting? Because they want a hulu plust app.

    The whole issue is this, Blackberry tried and fell short. Great tablet, great os, but no app market. With this firesale alot of people are coming in my self included and seeing this what the Diehard fans refuse to see. With out some sort of major change for the playbook its history. Sorry but that is how I see it.

    Imagine the Kindle Fire with out Amazon market, picture it. Now look at your Playbook.
    The block is in the Flash platform identifier, which technically RIM can send bogus info to Hulu's site, but if they're pushing for a native Hulu app, what's wrong with that?

    I'm no diehard. I recently got the Playbook myself. I've seen two OS updates since getting it and a preview of what's to come. I've also seen drops in app prices. I've seen RIM write off almost $500 million in an attempt to gain users and thereby show developers they're willing to spend serious money to build a viable market. I'd say they took a hard look and are addressing things. Expecting them to have done this yesterday doesn't help.

    As for the Amazon Market, people have reported being able to stream from it. Music can be downloaded and transferred over. The Kindle Android app works in OS2.
    jrwarren and batboris like this.
    01-08-12 12:24 AM
  13. fabfreddie's Avatar
    Why is Rim following the useless, awful, proprietary Apple model anyway? Who says there has to be 3 models? Just like the handsets, make one tablet, a 16 Gig priced at $250, with a micro SD expansion slot. I used to love how Apple or Android dorks were "stuck" with what they had, and I could always expand at will thanks to my Micro SD. Why they left it out of the Playbook is beyond me.

    One cheaply priced tablet that can expand to 128 gigs in the not to distant future.
    01-08-12 12:47 AM
  14. Economist101's Avatar
    Why is Rim following the useless, awful, proprietary Apple model anyway? Who says there has to be 3 models? Just like the handsets, make one tablet, a 16 Gig priced at $250, with a micro SD expansion slot. I used to love how Apple or Android dorks were "stuck" with what they had, and I could always expand at will thanks to my Micro SD. Why they left it out of the Playbook is beyond me.

    One cheaply priced tablet that can expand to 128 gigs in the not to distant future.
    It's probably because while the Apple model may be "useless" and "awful," it's also profitable. None of the tablets that include SD-card slots (the Xoom comes to mind) have sold well, despite the presence of Android "dorks" (which less extreme commenters refer to as "customers").
    xKrNMBoYx and pantlesspenguin like this.
    01-08-12 01:18 AM
  15. xKrNMBoYx's Avatar
    okay for the people who are thinking the $99.............

    if they really want it that cheap then I don't care if they don't buy the PB. let them go buy some low-end Android tablet that they will end up frustrated with
    01-08-12 01:35 AM
  16. addicted44's Avatar
    Case in point:



    An iPod that doesn't let you pick your songs, just randomly plays whatever is stored on it. "Life is random."
    There are enough counterpoints to disprove this.

    1) iPod HiFi
    2) Moto Rokr
    3) Apple TV
    4) Ping
    5) Many more...

    The iPod Shuffle served a very niche market. People who wanted a music player to exercise with that synced easily with their iTunes music libraries (also, at the time iTunes Store music was DRM protected, so it was the cheapest player for that music). Apple explicitly acknowledged the exercise niche with the latter generations of the Shuffle all having clips. And the Shuffle was never amongst the best selling iPods.
    01-08-12 08:44 AM
  17. crack_me_silly's Avatar
    I would really like to see RIM give discounts when you buy a PB and a phone together (or within 30 days of each other). I know that I bought a PB and then liked it so much I went out and bought the 9900. RIM may not have made too much money on the PB, but they definitely made some dough on the 9900.

    They could also possibly give credit for apps or accessories. RIM has done a pretty good job getting the Playbook out, and to a large part I would imagine that the new owners of the playbook dont own a BB...so why not give them an incentive?
    01-08-12 08:46 AM
  18. dandbj13's Avatar
    If Android developers make money from just repackaging, that means all developers will see there's a market.
    That is exactly what they said about the TP and the PDK, may it rest in peace.
    01-08-12 08:50 AM
  19. omniusovermind's Avatar
    the same 200/300/400 price point as they were during boxing week. I feel that way for all tablet makers. Sorry but I'm sick and tired of these manufacturers dropping new versions on us every 12 months. If I can't get a 64GB tablet for $400 or less 6+ months after it was released I won't buy one, just to see it replaced a few months after purchase by a completely revamped new model. I'm not doling out $800 every year for a tablet.
    01-08-12 08:55 AM
  20. jugs's Avatar
    100$ or free with the purchase of a case.
    01-08-12 09:18 AM
  21. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    the same 200/300/400 price point as they were during boxing week. I feel that way for all tablet makers. Sorry but I'm sick and tired of these manufacturers dropping new versions on us every 12 months. If I can't get a 64GB tablet for $400 or less 6+ months after it was released I won't buy one, just to see it replaced a few months after purchase by a completely revamped new model. I'm not doling out $800 every year for a tablet.
    So, you believe that R.I.M can successfully sell a $400 version of the PB? meaning you believe the demand exists at this price point.
    01-08-12 10:55 AM
  22. popeyesmotto's Avatar
    $279

    What will eventually be realized as the kicker will be bridging. Data tethering without the tethering charge. Most serious web use will eat the data plan in short order. Having email and small data use applications available on mobile is great. But high bandwidth use is best done through wifi. 10-20% profit before delivery costs is reasonable for a product that leverages your profitable product. Having a blackberry makes this tablet more valuable than anything else in the market. The initial price for the playbook was far too much. I beleve RIM was anticipating the value of bridging and unfortunately missed the markrting opportunity and the price point. The price point probably reflects the profit margin of smart phones. The tablet is not a smart phone.
    01-08-12 02:27 PM
  23. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar
    $279

    What will eventually be realized as the kicker will be bridging. Data tethering without the tethering charge. Having a blackberry makes this tablet more valuable than anything else in the market. The initial price for the playbook was far too much. I beleve RIM was anticipating the value of bridging and unfortunately missed the markrting opportunity and the price point. .
    Then what you're saying is that the biggest value of the PB is the ability to use it in conjunction with a PB phone?

    That would mean 1 or 2 things:

    1.) That, at least in the U.S. markets, the 94% of smart phone owners who don't use BB phone would choose the PB knowing that their experience will be somewhat limited?(This scenario is hard to envision)

    Or

    2.) That R.I.M can scale back on it's U.S. efforts(this is doubtful as U.S. consumers have proven time and time again, that they are more than willing to go out and spend top dollar on smart phones and tablets) for the same reason as 1.)

    I don't see how either of these would increase sales.

    Or maybe I misunderstood.
    01-08-12 05:03 PM
  24. cbvinh's Avatar
    There are enough counterpoints to disprove this.

    1) iPod HiFi
    2) Moto Rokr
    3) Apple TV
    4) Ping
    5) Many more...
    True, not everything Apple makes will be bought up by the Apple fans. These devices weren't considered Apple "core" devices, so I don't recall Apple really advertising them heavily. Apple breaks its devices down to Mac, iPod, iPhone and iPad, but that's probably out of numbers convenience because had Apple TV taken off, it would be one of the categories reported in their financials.

    My example of the Shuffle is that at the time it was released, there were many flash-based players out there and it wasn't until a year or two later that Apple put out the Shuffle and ate up that niche. It's an example of the the Apple logo selling a product that was widely available from other manufacturers.

    And your point below is insightful... It would definitely skew Apple fans to buy the Shuffle...

    The iPod Shuffle served a very niche market. People who wanted a music player to exercise with that synced easily with their iTunes music libraries (also, at the time iTunes Store music was DRM protected, so it was the cheapest player for that music). Apple explicitly acknowledged the exercise niche with the latter generations of the Shuffle all having clips. And the Shuffle was never amongst the best selling iPods.
    Last edited by cbvinh; 01-08-12 at 11:21 PM.
    01-08-12 11:03 PM
  25. cbvinh's Avatar
    That is exactly what they said about the TP and the PDK, may it rest in peace.
    The PDK never got a chance to take off. 49 days after the release of the Touchpad, they went on firesale. The firesale did help the Touchpad, as there are plenty of apps for it now. It's speculated that there are about 1 million Touchpad's out there.

    Playbook speculation is that there are 1-1.5 million units produced and with the firesale, it seems RIM is intent on selling every one of them. Given the Touchpad example (where some of them were bought for only rooting/Android potential), hitting close to the million unit mark is enough to spark developers' attention.
    01-08-12 11:18 PM
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