1. sad_old_man's Avatar
    Well eyes down boys and look in.

    It's in my view an innovative way to save RIM/BB by cutting costs dramatically and make us happy!

    I have been thinking about this since bb10 launch.

    BB were dominant in the mobile phone market until the advent of the genius CEO who was employed by Apple. He was like the whole company rolled into one person. Invention, design, development, marketing and sales. The guy was the guru of technology but sadly is no longer with us.

    Ok let's look at what he did.

    The iPhone! Yes the marketing was good but the product couldn't compete with the BB. Then all of a sudden he brought the hallowed tablet concept to us. It didn't have to be perfect because the concept was brilliant and the first of its kind that everybody wanted. Surprise then that it's sales were successful, (hard to fail when your the only one) and the iPhone piggy backed on the ipad. That has all gone now with the sad demise of this genius CEO.

    Now enter BB!

    All these forums are full of people who use, love are addicted to or are just loyal to BB and it's products. Well based on reading so many threads I've lost count, Here's an idea based on my own requirements and usage.

    Ok firstly think about the development costs of BB10. Then the development costs of the Z10 and the Q10. Then the development costs of the pb version of BB10 and the bridge link. Then the development costs of the pb LTE.

    Ok so here it is. I as I have stated before I very rarely remove my bb Torch from its holster. It is bridged to my pb almost permanently and I use a bluetooth headset to answer calls, play music etc, etc.

    So far Apple, Samsung RIM/Blackberry have all produced tablets that contain a sim card and can utilise the mobile network. The thing is they use it primarily for connection to the Web. Totaly unnecessary and redundant with. My new toy. Read on:

    Save all the development costs for the Z10, the Q10 and all the different versions of BB10 to encompass the hardware variants.

    Build the Z10/Q10 into the pb completely.

    Result:

    A first in the market place, that everyone (apart from the airtime providers) will adore.

    Being a first it will entice the non RIM/BB geeks to buy it just to see how it works.
    (just like the first pad did)

    It frightens even me to think of the development costs that would be saved and available for other development.

    Users keeping their primary (new pb) communications device in their pocket/briefcase to answer/make calls, listen to emails and messages, GPS directions, video/conference calling in meetings and the list of possible uses is endless.

    I would estimate that the design, development, implementation, production, marketing, logistics and support costs saved by BB, would more than cover the cost of replacing old pb's for existing pb owners with the new PB.

    Final result = happy bb owners.

    I will go as far as to say that before the end of Q4 we see one of these tablets on the market!

    Who will it be, I do hope it's RIM/BB

    P's if it is you RIM/BB, remember it was my idea and brandy is always appreciated. Otherwise I will give the idea to Apple or Samsung so there!
    02-14-13 12:44 PM
  2. AVPTI's Avatar
    Before I continue reading, your statement regarding Jobs is highly inaccurate.

    He was not a tech guru. He did not invent anything. He left that to his pal Woz.

    Jobs saw the potential $$ in products.
    Willard814 likes this.
    02-14-13 12:54 PM
  3. sad_old_man's Avatar
    Before I continue reading, your statement regarding Jobs is highly inaccurate.

    He was not a tech guru. He did not invent anything. He left that to his pal Woz.

    Jobs saw the potential $$ in products.
    Ok so here's a thought for you. Instead of being pedantic, why don't you voice your opinion on the idea as a concept? Or ask RIM/Blackberry to employ all them people.

    Seems a fair request to me.
    BB_Bmore and Willard814 like this.
    02-14-13 01:02 PM
  4. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Before I continue reading, your statement regarding Jobs is highly inaccurate.

    He was not a tech guru. He did not invent anything. He left that to his pal Woz.

    Jobs saw the potential $$ in products.
    That's not entirely fair. Woz absolutely was the better engineer, but Jobs held many patents in his own right. Agreed that Woz was the tech guru and Jobs generally handled the business/marketing/design end, but the lines were definitely blurry.

    As to the OP... Yes, I get where you're going; make the handset the central device and everything else just kind of hangs off of it. It's not a bad idea, and I like BB's implementation of bridge with the old-school OS. Obviously, Bridge is still there for BB10. It's limited compared to the previous version, with the biggest omission being the lack of communication for e-mail, BBM, and SMS. What BB seems to be advocating is for the user to set e-mail up on the Playbook itself, and we know BBM is coming with the BB10 Playbook upgrade. Whether Bridge is going to be re-enabled for SMS is anyone's guess (probably not, unfortunately).

    From the way it looks today, BB is moving closer to Apple's model of maintaining the handset and tablet as separate, independent devices.
    sad_old_man likes this.
    02-14-13 01:16 PM
  5. sad_old_man's Avatar
    That's not entirely fair. Woz absolutely was the better engineer, but Jobs held many patents in his own right. Agreed that Woz was the tech guru and Jobs generally handled the business/marketing/design end, but the lines were definitely blurry.

    As to the OP... Yes, I get where you're going; make the handset the central device and everything else just kind of hangs off of it. It's not a bad idea, and I like BB's implementation of bridge with the old-school OS. Obviously, Bridge is still there for BB10. It's limited compared to the previous version, with the biggest omission being the lack of communication for e-mail, BBM, and SMS. What BB seems to be advocating is for the user to set e-mail up on the Playbook itself, and we know BBM is coming with the BB10 Playbook upgrade. Whether Bridge is going to be re-enabled for SMS is anyone's guess (probably not, unfortunately).

    From the way it looks today, BB is moving closer to Apple's model of maintaining the handset and tablet as separate, independent devices.
    So therefore as I stated, no company yet has a tablet on the market that is actually a phone. Before retirement I used to be a director for Nokia and for years I was continually requested to get my development department to make handsets that were smaller and smaller to the point where a user hardly had a screen left to use. At that time our only constraint was technology. My first mobile phone was to all intense and purpose a car battery with a standard telephone handset attached.

    Now we have the technology to put mobile phones in something as small as a wrist watch, it has always amused me to see modern mobile phones growing larger and larger again striving for larger and clearer screens. Lets be honest who wants to watch a video on a 4" screen?

    Therefore why not produce a tablet that is the actual phone, making the conventional handset redundant?

    I refer you to my opening post to work out the cost savings.

    What the benefits to users would/would not be is the reason for this thread and views on usability of such a device is the main purpose. Not to be a general discussion on who was the main component in the success of Apple.
    02-14-13 02:43 PM
  6. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    So therefore as I stated, no company yet has a tablet on the market that is actually a phone. Before retirement I used to be a director for Nokia and for years I was continually requested to get my development department to make handsets that were smaller and smaller to the point where a user hardly had a screen left to use. At that time our only constraint was technology. My first mobile phone was to all intense and purpose a car battery with a standard telephone handset attached.

    Now we have the technology to put mobile phones in something as small as a wrist watch, it has always amused me to see modern mobile phones growing larger and larger again striving for larger and clearer screens. Lets be honest who wants to watch a video on a 4" screen?

    Therefore why not produce a tablet that is the actual phone, making the conventional handset redundant?

    I refer you to my opening post to work out the cost savings.

    What the benefits to users would/would not be is the reason for this thread and views on usability of such a device is the main purpose. Not to be a general discussion on who was the main component in the success of Apple.
    Well, Samsung actually DOES make the Galaxy Note series, which originated the "phablet" class of devices (is it a phone? is it a tablet? It's two devices in one!). It's definitely attracted a following.

    Not impossible for BB to renew the 4G PlayBook; just have the phone interface in place to either place speakerphone calls or use a BT headset. I could see some users going for that.
    02-14-13 02:51 PM
  7. sad_old_man's Avatar
    Well, Samsung actually DOES make the Galaxy Note series, which originated the "phablet" class of devices (is it a phone? is it a tablet? It's two devices in one!). It's definitely attracted a following.

    Not impossible for BB to renew the 4G PlayBook; just have the phone interface in place to either place speakerphone calls or use a BT headset. I could see some users going for that.
    Exactly my point. It's two devices in one!

    This is probably why it is getting such bad reviews. One development department on the phone side, one development department on the tablet side. Two individual pieces bolted together that kind of actually sometimes work together but are separate entities in their own right. Have you ever tried to get support for one of these devices?

    However, one true device that is developed by the best people from both of the respective departments, tablet and handset development who are working together to achieve a common goal would both produce an outstanding device and also be able to provide device support.

    I refer you to my initial post regarding cost saving.
    02-14-13 03:05 PM
  8. BB_Bmore's Avatar
    I think we will see a Phablet from BlackBerry in October. At least this is what i hope.
    02-14-13 03:16 PM
  9. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Exactly my point. It's two devices in one!

    This is probably why it is getting such bad reviews. One development department on the phone side, one development department on the tablet side. Two individual pieces bolted together that kind of actually sometimes work together but are separate entities in their own right. Have you ever tried to get support for one of these devices?

    However, one true device that is developed by the best people from both of the respective departments, tablet and handset development who are working together to achieve a common goal would both produce an outstanding device and also be able to provide device support.

    I refer you to my initial post regarding cost saving.
    I know what you mean, but remember that devices that serve two different purposes frequently wind up compromising both functions. The Galaxy Note looks absurdly huge when users try to hold it up and talk on it. And while I like BT headsets and collected a fair number of them over the years, I've seen very few people take to wearing them constantly. I have to confess, I'm not sold on the phablet as anything more than a niche product.

    I think we will see a Phablet from BlackBerry in October. At least this is what i hope.
    I work for a company that retained a team of consultants for an implementation project last year. One night over after-work drinks last fall, I got acquainted with one of them and got kind of stoked to find out he had JUST been laid off from RIM only a few weeks before. He had some good humor over it, though, and didn't seem to bear any grudges against his former employer. He also told me that he'd seen a number of things that convinced him that the company really was on the right track and that they shouldn't be written off.

    He didn't work in an area directly related to product, but he HAD seen some prototypes circulating around the company. The only one he mentioned specifically, though, was a phablet.
    02-14-13 03:26 PM
  10. kill_9's Avatar
    However, one true device that is developed by the best people from both of the respective departments, tablet and handset development who are working together to achieve a common goal would both produce an outstanding device and also be able to provide device support.
    The problem with your suggestion is the apparent lack of "best people" in the development teams of either the BlackBerry Tablet OS or BlackBerry OS 10. The small details overlooked or features buried behind some odd button or multi-level menu clearly illustrates part of the underlying issues facing BlackBerry, the company. As for cost savings, you will see BlackBerry shed 90% of its staff before the end of 2015 and outsourcing much of their non-core business. Seriously, I am surprised one of their MBA-toting CXOs hasn't already outsourced 100% of customer support and software development to India which would nail the coffin shut.
    sad_old_man likes this.
    02-14-13 03:31 PM
  11. sad_old_man's Avatar
    The problem with your suggestion is the apparent lack of "best people" in the development teams of either the BlackBerry Tablet OS or BlackBerry OS 10. The small details overlooked or features buried behind some odd button or multi-level menu clearly illustrates part of the underlying issues facing BlackBerry, the company. As for cost savings, you will see BlackBerry shed 90% of its staff before the end of 2015 and outsourcing much of their non-core business. Seriously, I am surprised one of their MBA-toting CXOs hasn't already outsourced 100% of customer support and software development to India which would nail the coffin shut.
    I am suddenly in love!

    The point is that when a CEO with limited vision begins the quest in search of the holy grail, 'PROFIT' the company is almost certainly heading for extinction. Short term knee **** reactions always begin with 'Downsizing', or in common terms shedding staff. It's the quickest way to reduce costs keeps shareholders happy because the CEO is seen to be taking immediate action. However it's very hard and unfair to ask the receptionist to develope new products, market them and support them whilst still answering the phone!

    P's do you like brandy?
    02-14-13 03:43 PM
  12. CBCListener's Avatar
    So on the one hand, I see what you're suggesting. On the other, for those who might opt for such a device, it constrains the user to use a larger form-factor for everything...even at times when such a large form factor may not be as convenient, thus getting a less-than-ideal experience (and you know that this undertaking by BlackBerry is all about the superior experience with BB10). Sure, this is how you use your BB/Bluetooth/PB complex. But I have to think that this will always be in the minority.

    Now you know that there's been some discussion that, eventually, the BB10 might be, much like the Motorola Atrix, dockable, so that one might carry a portable version of what is otherwise used on one's desk. In that regard, the PlayBook, with Bridge, nearly accomplishes that (I've previously written that I've done some fairly ambitious work on one in a pinch). I'd like to see any enhanced PlayBook even more integrated with the BB...but part of that is to get the carriers (in the US, anyway, such as T-Mobile) to stop considering the PlayBook as an add-on to the phone, and instead treat it as not much more than a screen enlarged phone, seeing as the only device the carrier sees is the phone...considering the phone a "WiFi hotspot"...and demanding a monthly charge for it, is something of an insult.
    Last edited by CBCListener; 02-14-13 at 10:00 PM.
    sad_old_man likes this.
    02-14-13 07:18 PM
  13. 8820man's Avatar
    An interesting read for sure, and definitely above my knowledge. Having just recently discovered how to text from PB with bluetooth connection to my 9800, it would be extremely cool for my PB to act as a speaker phone. Just a thought, but again a good read of a thread.
    sad_old_man likes this.
    02-14-13 09:51 PM
  14. GV2012's Avatar
    Jobs was around losing $ taking loans from Microsoft before the BlackBerry was even created in the form we know it. The guy was doing a lot of stuff that wasn't really getting much traction until he was "genius" enough to start stealing everyone's creations and tie them together with a nice little bow.
    It was just his perfect storm.
    sad_old_man likes this.
    02-15-13 04:06 AM
  15. Wongsky's Avatar
    I think there's a few aspects to this - sharing or leveraging synergy in development costs seems appealing - but certainly Android and to a certain degree iOS has got flak, before now for the apparent dichotomy between tablet and larger sized devices needs / preferences, and those for handsets. Convergence always seems to inevitably lead to general mediocrity in all the functions - plus certain undesirable consequences.

    Convergence always seemed to be the holy grail, in the past. I can remember getting my first portable video player (well the first one I actually kept, I returned a few abortive attempts beforehand) - an Archos AV400 - it had a 3.8" screen, hard drive (40G in the one I had) portable media player, that came with a proper dock / cradle that you could use to make it work almost like a PVR for recording too. It was fairly expensive at the time, but I got loads of use out of it, and it worked well at what it did - basically video playing, video recording, music playing / recording, that sort of thing - great travel device. No WiFi, had a transflash card slot (that I never used) and was well built and did ooze quality. No touchscreen, just operated with the buttons.

    Around that time, I'd been tempted with another device (I still have one, that I bought a couple of years after it's prime, when the company had folded and the devices had devalued a lot) - a Tapwave Zodiac - it was supposed to be that bit more aiming at convergence than say Archos AV range of media players / recorders. It ran a customised version of Palm OS, and could play semi-decent games, watch video, play music, and although didn't have native WiFi, had bluetooth (so you could pair it to your phone) and one of the SD slots was capable of running with an SD / WiFi card combo so you could use it for some degree of internet usage. This had a touchscreen but you tended to have to use the stylus, really. Didn't have a hard drive like the Archos AV range, so storage was a bit limited and a bit pricey, really.

    Archos also brought out a more convergent orientated device around the time of the AV400, which was cosmetically almost identical, but had WiFi built in, and you could do various internet related stuff on it, think it had a touchscreen. It always seemed much more compromised, and whilst looked largely the same as the AV400 range, I seem to recall that there were more issues in the core media functions.

    To me, they always seemed like devices that were trying to tout certain convergency plaudits, but not truly succeeding - they did OK at their core function, but really only paid lip service to doing other activities with them.

    A few years later I bought an updated Archos device - a 705 WiFi, which was around PlayBook size (think it's got an 8" screen - but quite a bit thicker than the PlayBook, 80G hard drive) touchscreen (resistive) which did all the usually video playback duties, but now the recording dock / cradle was an optional (costed) extra, and plugins for certain media were a cost too. All the same, the browser was OK, and it was acceptable for light internet usage. Again a quality device from at least a build perspective. Very useful for portable media, plus light internet usage was OK.

    I didn't really leap into the smartphone or tablet market at first. My first true smartphone (albeit a low-powered model) was a Nokia 5230, and I was mainly struck with the sat nav features - such that I ditched my automotive Garmins, because my Nokia handset actually worked better, got free map updates for life, and had things like lane guidance and traffic updates. At that point, the main draw for me, in terms of smartphones, was, I guess, some convergance with the sat nav thing. They knew how to sell this - the box had a big thing about the sat nav features, free maps for life, and came with a Nokia windscreen mount in the box.

    I'd got this 5230 free, my wife had upgraded her contract with her provider, and they'd offered her a free additional handset (well there was a delivery charge of 4.99 (UK pounds) but in essence, practically free. This had resounded with me, I'd discovered a handset that had truly allowed me to exercise some degree of convergence, and retired my automotive sat navs. A few months after I got it, my contract renewal was due (same provider as my wife) - as we also use the same company for landline and broadband at home, mobiles were subject to an additional discount - and when I looked, I could have Nokia's flagship model (at the time) the N8, free on my current tariff. I jumped at the chance, and was delighted - still am, largely.

    It was built beautifully, had an awesome camera (still has in today's market) decent functions, and could be used to browser the web and light internet usage. I was sold on it - used it for in car sat nav, sports tracking / logging whilst walking the dog, DAB reception whilst out walking, watching video or using iPlayer around the house, on occasion. Still good for watching video whilst on a stationary bike at the gym. I was truly convinced convergence could be very effective, and you could effectively combine several functions.

    What's that I hear? Big fecking suprise! Smartphones had been capable of this for some time. Well true, but for me, the N8 was truly a replacement for a competent point-and-shoot camera - as well as having a decent lens, large sensor and true xenon flash; more than just good enough at being a sat nav; delightful as a portable video player (given it's portability) - and has HDMI out; and fairly good at internet duties. It had a normal FM turner, internet radio (native) app, and with a special add-on, is a DAB / DAB+ radio. Plus has an FM transmitter for interfacing with your car stereo, if there's no bluetooth facilities. There was at least 2 to 3 devices I was no longer having to take with me.

    Then I got a Kindle. Then an Android tablet. Then a PlayBook, and another Android tablet.

    Whilst convergence was good, prices were tumbling, and why watch video on a 3.5" screen, when you could watch on a 7" or 10" screen. Why surf the internet on a cramped 3.5" screen, when tablet screens are so much bigger and easier to use.

    I bought a Kindle because I like reading - and e-ink screens are far superior to that than other portable device screens. But then Kindle was available for my Android tablet, and in bed / a dark room, using the inverse colours was a nice way of reading without having the stark bright glare of the white LEDs in my Kindle's leather lighted case (cost 50 FFS!). I bought my PlayBook because it was cheap, the OS meant to be very good, and I thought it would be nice to try using a tablet in a smaller form factor than my Android tablets (both the same model, and a little over 10").

    Suddenly convergence was being reversed a bit.

    Now looking at the larger phones (I do truly hate the word phablet) - the SIII, for example, already has a smaller version. I couldn't be happy using the larger version as a handset, and I wouldn't want to go back to a bluetooth headset (I have a bluetooth speakerphone thingmy on my sun visor in the car).

    So here's where I spy a plan - BlackBerry, despite themselves, built a very nice tablet in the PlayBook. Build quality to die for, a true gem of an OS. Execution let them down - intitially there were some issues with some of the core functions, and still some poignant gaps in major app support. For a while, some saw it as some true oddity in the tablet market - even a joke for some. They squandered it's OS with it perhaps being immature when first released, and they also squandered it's true USP of security, AND in additional, that unique party piece for a tablet - device level encryption.

    Despite themselves, they pulled off what may be a very savvy move - dropped prices, hugely, and got loads into the market. Warm people up to the potential of what BB10 may be similar to. This could either be inspired or a last ditch attempt, or both.

    But they apparently have a plan BB10 is going to be their redemption - pioneered on new handsets, rolled out to the PlayBook, and the future should be golden, right? Even so far as salvaging their interest in the tablet market.

    Apple seem to squander their commonality between the iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad - well so far as their success seems more about desire and hearts and minds, as opposed to true innovation and synergy between their devices.

    Could this be where BlackBerry pull off a true win? For me, Nokia dropped the ball, when they became all about dumbing down the good bits of Symbian and their mapping / sat nav apps. For me Symbian Belle was just too dumbed down, too much form over function - in fact too much function and options removed, and too much of a last ditch attempt. Their Windows mobile phones seem fine, but I'm not particularly drawn to them, their sat nav offering on the handset neutered down to being not that much different or better than any other offering.

    I'm not convinced with Android on a handset, all the ones I've tried haven't been very good at actually being phones. iPhone sir? Well I'm no true hater, but I don't buy into the brand, and for me they're too restrictive and too costly for what they offer. Since having a PlayBook, though, and seeing some advantage with having a BlackBerry handset whilst owning a PlayBook, I've spied a plan. As nobody else has caught my imagination or provided a compelling reason to go with their handset, I'll almost certainly go for a BlackBerry one at contract renewal. You never know, a BB10 handset may be within my budget, too.

    But here's the thing - here's where they may have a coup - nobody, really, other than them has truly shown some convincing reason that the same OS on the handset, and on a tablet, is compelling. If BB10 is babied through it's first few months on the handset market, and they get a good release of BB10 on the PlayBook, truly push that to the fore and exploit it, they could truly have some real success on their hands,perhaps with numbers helped with their quantitive easing of the PlayBook's selling price.

    Problem is, there's a lot of "if"s there. And it requires crackerjack timing, plus enough skilled hands on board to ensure the quality and bugs are addressed. And it requires somebody with some savvy to truly exploit a quite narrow, at present, yet something with true potential, if they make their play. It requires bold, focused and determined action, at a time when companies are watching their share price like a hawk, and risk aversion and small 'c' conservativeness is de rigeur.

    Realistically, though, Occam's Razor tells me never ascribe to malice what could be explained by incompetence. OK so being a bit free and easy with that, the simplest explanation is they've just got a bit lucky with some combinations, but don't quite have the nous and the resources to truly exploit it. If, in a years time, they haven't - I'll feel a bit sad and sorry. Why? Not 'cos I have any true loyalty to the company - I just bought a product at a good price, and am seriously considering another - I'll feel sad if they don't make a strong play for that unexploited territory, because it will be unfulfilled potential.

    I don't think convergence is truly there, yet, and not for the foreseeable - I think LARGE smartphones won't be any great shakes. I think the best and tenable approach is a tighter and more beneficial integration betwixt handset and tablet has some as of yet largely unfulfilled and kinda untapped potential to truly be a draw. My fear is that they'll not be bold enough to do it either well, or in time, to make a difference.
    02-15-13 07:42 AM
  16. sad_old_man's Avatar
    Jobs was around losing $ taking loans from Microsoft before the BlackBerry was even created in the form we know it. The guy was doing a lot of stuff that wasn't really getting much traction until he was "genius" enough to start stealing everyone's creations and tie them together with a nice little bow.
    It was just his perfect storm.
    And some (not me) would say that the ends justify the means and nobody can dispute how successful Apple have become regardless of how they achieved this and how good/bad you regard their products.

    Had anyone (technically minded excluded) heard of a tablet before the launch of the ipad. Someone seemed to see the potential future in a tablet market and how right they were to take the chance and launch it. Having possession of a new innovative product that in your own opinion will be a market leader is one thing. Having the courage to stand up in front of the world and tell them that although they don't understand what the product is, they must trust you and buy it because they need it and it's going to become the future is quite a different matter altogether.

    The alternative is to wait until someone else has the courage to do it and then try to play catch up. This strategy can sometimes be successful as long as one golden rule is not broken. The product playing catch up must be better or at least as good as the competitors product (which the pb is) and should never be released (working but needing a lot of attention) regardless of the pressure to get in on the ground floor and secure a share of the new market (which the pb was). The end result of this will always be a product that earns the reputation that the pb has today with everyone including myself stating "It has the potential to be if not the best tablet on the market, an equal rival for the best tablet".

    We all buy many products from far eastern companies who have never been innovative. Why?

    Because they take all of our new products, analyse them, improve them, manufacture them and release them. Do they not play catch up?

    I think my idea is good anyway and between the two of us that have read this thread, it must be a good idea because it's the only idea I've ever had and I did it all on my own with no help from any adult whatsoever. (my 16yr old son did help me with the big words I've used like 'it' and 'be'.)
    02-15-13 08:19 AM

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