03-23-13 08:29 AM
57 123
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  1. Papaguan's Avatar
    I'm only a third year computer engineering student, but that picture gives me the impression that the RAM is soldered. :/
    victorshikhman likes this.
    03-20-13 04:12 AM
  2. twstd.reality's Avatar
    it is soldered, from underneath. it's an fbga packaged chip. basically, solder balls under the chip are heated and melted to pads on the board. depending on the pitch, putting the chip back on can be iffy because you have no idea if it mated properly. the only way to tell is to test, or run it through the xray. the equipment alone to do the job would run you at least a couple hundred (hot air tool/soldering iron).

    then there's the problem of finding a replacement chip, especially since most vendors will have minimum quantities in the thousands to place an order. though, I have had success ordering samples - some companies hand those out for free. also as someone else mentioned, the chip has to be exactly the same (physically and internal pin out). IMO it can be done, but the time, effort, and money spent would not be worth it. especially since the soc is somewhere in there - you risk damaging it as well.
    victorshikhman likes this.
    03-20-13 04:50 AM
  3. uncle_numpty's Avatar
    Sure it can be done from a purely engineering standpoint, however from a cost / risk perspective it's not worth the bother.

    Better to either to develop your os and software to be scalable to differing RAM sizes and processing speeds or to bring out new hardware to suit.

    Personally, I think BB are either :
    i. going to head down the 'cloud' route for QNX/BB10 and your device will be a 'terminal' of the 'mainframe'
    ii. or heading down the ARCHOS path and buying cheap generic chinese tablets and adding their OS for it to add value.
    victorshikhman likes this.
    03-20-13 06:02 AM
  4. joshua_sx1's Avatar
    From engineering perspective of view. The PlayBook's RAM can be physically upgraded with the right equipment and tools + the skills of the tech guy who is going to replace it... it is not like the conventional desktop computer that most PCB's are "plug in" swappable... then the problem of replacement part comes in, where in the world you will find and buy the 2GB RAM for PB?... even you find one, the next problem would be the other components that will support or be supported by the 2GB RAM... then you need to reinstall an OS that will identify and utilize the 2GB RAm... and so on... not only the process is risky (i.e. your PB to become useless) but the cost would probably have a less difference compare with buying new units... not to mention that other components are aging too e.g. battery and the lcd screen...

    To simplify everything, it is feasible and economical to develop a BB10 OS version intended only for the current PB's specs... rather than trying to fit the BB10 version that currently installed in our Z10 to our PB...

    Posted via Z10
    victorshikhman likes this.
    03-20-13 10:15 AM
  5. victorshikhman's Avatar
    Hey Everyone,

    I appreciate the last few comments, which have been on point and informative - thank you!

    Just now I received a response on a TI OMAP 4 Forum where I posted a few questions. The answer confirms what the last few posters have been saying here on crackberry forums, so the matter is settled, as far as I'm concerned. I ended up learning quite a bit about the Playbook's motherboard and chips (along with finding a site that sells seemingly legit OEM batteries!) so it hasn't been a total loss.

    Steve Schefter posted RE: Is Blackberry Playbook's OMAP4430 Upgradeable? in OMAP 4 Forum.

    Hi Victor.

    Unfortunately, swapping the 4460 for the 4430 would be next to impossible in your environment.

    Setting aside the fact that there are some differences in the components needed around the 4460, the chip is soldered to the motherboard. To get an idea of the technology, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array. With BGA, a very specialized rework station is required to replace chips.

    Regards,

    Steve
    03-20-13 12:28 PM
  6. imz's Avatar
    00000000000
    Last edited by mr_zed10; 03-20-13 at 02:04 PM.
    03-20-13 01:31 PM
  7. lexluthorxx's Avatar
    Dev Alphas have 1GB of ram and handle BB10 well. How is this a limitation for the PlayBook?
    Of Course the playbook can handle OS10.....Its just its Chicken Little time....and the panic has set in....the When are we going to get it...Are we going to get it...If we get it ...it will be a 'crippled Os10'....Why don't we have it yet...Something must be wrong...We're not getting it...Thor says this....Alec says that...

    Oh God...
    diegonei likes this.
    03-20-13 01:45 PM
  8. Wongsky's Avatar
    As others have stated, this is the problem with forums - somebody speculates at a certain point, then others carry on and use those speculation as facts.

    All there has been is speculation about whether the PlayBook's 1GB of RAM will be good enough to run BB10. And all there has been is speculation that possibly whatever incarnation of BB10 that hits the PlayBook will be some watered-down version.

    Yet this thread, largely, treats those two things as given... and on it goes.
    03-20-13 01:50 PM
  9. jimread1949's Avatar
    Wonder what would be the cost of relacement mother board with exra ram and memory already on there, a sort of upgrade kit if you like. already stated in video that its easy to remove " a couple of wires and standard screws" might be possible and could also be factory covered. Feel sure that the Playbook with SIM slot does'nt use all different tooling, just differant tooling gates added to existing tooling, and I believe this version as 1.5GB of RAM.

    Don't believe there is a problem regarding 1GB RAM and BB10 but the exrta would'nt hurt any.
    Last edited by jimread1949; 03-20-13 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Last line added for clarity
    03-20-13 01:52 PM
  10. Wongsky's Avatar
    Wonder what would be the cost of relacement mother board with exra ram and memory already on there, a sort of upgrade kit if you like. already stated in video that its easy to remove " a couple of wires and standard screws" might be possible and could also be factory covered. Feel sure that the Playbook with SIM slot does'nt use all different tooling, just differant tooling gates added to existing tooling, and I believe this version as 1.5GB of RAM.

    Don't believe there is a problem regarding 1GB RAM and BB10 but the exrta would'nt hurt any.
    I don't believe the LTE version has more RAM.

    Clockspeed is higher (1.5Ghz compared witth 1Ghz) - think it's a slightly improved chipset / SoC.
    03-20-13 02:08 PM
  11. victorshikhman's Avatar
    @jimread1949

    At the point where you're replacing 90% of the internals (all that's left after you take out the motherboard are LCD, speakers, battery and cameras?) it's not worth it. I was hoping just the RAM or CPU could be swapped out and upgraded, but it's not practical. This is my first tablet, and I'm happy with it and all, but the lack of easy hardware upgradeability is definitely a new aspect to modern tech that we should start taking into account in making our purchases.

    My Lenovo T60 laptop is 6.5 years old. I've replaced the battery twice, the fan once, maxed out my RAM, replaced the original 100GB HD with a 1TB and then added a 250GB SSHD into an available bay, and can always replace the LCD if it goes. I thought about upgrading the CPU as well, but it's probably not worth it for the modest increase in performance. It runs great for what I need (just loaded W8 on it last month) so I don't see a reason to get a new one, and all these upgrades were much, much cheaper than getting a new laptop. Those of us used to that kind of modularity are in for a rude awakening with the miniaturized, integrated chipsets being used in tablets, which are the near future of mobile computing.
    03-20-13 02:11 PM
  12. Wongsky's Avatar
    @jimread1949

    At the point where you're replacing 90% of the internals (all that's left after you take out the motherboard are LCD, speakers, battery and cameras?) it's not worth it. I was hoping just the RAM or CPU could be swapped out and upgraded, but it's not practical. This is my first tablet, and I'm happy with it and all, but the lack of easy hardware upgradeability is definitely a new aspect to modern tech that we should start taking into account in making our purchases.

    My Lenovo T60 laptop is 6.5 years old. I've replaced the battery twice, the fan once, maxed out my RAM, replaced the original 100GB HD with a 1TB and then added a 250GB SSHD into an available bay, and can always replace the LCD if it goes. I thought about upgrading the CPU as well, but it's probably not worth it for the modest increase in performance. It runs great for what I need (just loaded W8 on it last month) so I don't see a reason to get a new one, and all these upgrades were much, much cheaper than getting a new laptop. Those of us used to that kind of modularity are in for a rude awakening with the miniaturized, integrated chipsets being used in tablets, which are the near future of mobile computing.
    I just think it's a different paradigm.

    If you think of it in context, or with the metaphor being laptops / netbooks, scaled down, you're probably doing yourself a disservice. Think of these sort of SoC devices as scaled-up mobile phones, then it makes more sense. Yes, most phones allow things like memory cards - but that's storage, not RAM.
    03-20-13 02:29 PM
  13. jimread1949's Avatar
    Yes I agree replacing the mother board is a big step-------But!. I believe that the total cost of the components involved in making a playbook runs at around $110.00. There are several quite large modules involved. Body back, touch screen, camera's, battery, motherboard. So lets give the mother board the lions share and say it costs $40.00. The next big cost item is labour. To relace individual components on a mother board would as previously intimated would require specialised equipment and would be labour intensive, however a replacement motherboard could be replaced in say 10 minutes, 6 units per hour, $60.00 per Hr, say $10. Total cost for upgrade $50. S**t I spent more on my head phones.
    03-20-13 02:29 PM
  14. Jim Horn's Avatar
    A number of questionable assumptions there! The PlayBook is more complex than the original Kindle which had a bill of materials cost of US$209, not $110. And that is in mass production quantities at the factory in China. Many of the components used are contracted to OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) only, not small production shops as would be the case here. Also, as mentioned earlier, the OS code may not have the flexibility to use more RAM or a faster processor or other such add-ons.

    That last was a problem some encountered when we doubled the RAM of one of the first true laptops (HP-110 Portable). The limited number is a real problem as well - a successful effort to make a next generation state-of-the-art scientific calculator (the WP 34S) by recoding the ROM of an existing one has led to hundreds of happy owners - but not the million or more that the PlayBook has sold.

    I've upped the memory of devices through the years (my 1998 Web page to triple the RAM of the Casio Windows CE machines was one of my first Web works) and have access to all sorts of solder rework equipment. But I'm not about to futz with my PlayBook as much as I'd like to boost it from 16G to 64G Flash, more RAM, etc. as I'm almost certain to turn it into junk. 'Tis a fine tool as it is and I enjoy it every day. No sense killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, as tempting as it may appear!
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-20-13 03:18 PM
  15. FF22's Avatar
    As others have stated, this is the problem with forums - somebody speculates at a certain point, then others carry on and use those speculation as facts.

    All there has been is speculation about whether the PlayBook's 1GB of RAM will be good enough to run BB10. And all there has been is speculation that possibly whatever incarnation of BB10 that hits the PlayBook will be some watered-down version.

    Yet this thread, largely, treats those two things as given... and on it goes.
    Really, there's be nothing to read if not for all the speculative speculation threads speculating about something/anything and more likely NOTHING.

    It passes time till bbry actually releases something that is not liked by somebody which will generate new and different threads.
    03-20-13 04:23 PM
  16. Wongsky's Avatar
    Yes I agree replacing the mother board is a big step-------But!. I believe that the total cost of the components involved in making a playbook runs at around $110.00. There are several quite large modules involved. Body back, touch screen, camera's, battery, motherboard. So lets give the mother board the lions share and say it costs $40.00. The next big cost item is labour. To relace individual components on a mother board would as previously intimated would require specialised equipment and would be labour intensive, however a replacement motherboard could be replaced in say 10 minutes, 6 units per hour, $60.00 per Hr, say $10. Total cost for upgrade $50. S**t I spent more on my head phones.
    I think you're making the mother of all assumptions there.

    Firstly, in terms of time, think of the shutdown and boot time of the PlayBook, and testing. Then think about insured transit costs.

    Then tell me that total cost of such an upgrade would be $50 - even if we accept your assumptions on cost of motherboard / mainboard.

    Let's be realistic - nobody is going to provide such a service, least of all BlackBerry themselves - because it would be ******** from a business perspective. Actually scratch some of that - it's highly unlikely, BlackBerry would provide such a service. And another 3rd party? Why would people risk any remaining warranty.

    Nobody does this sort of thing because it doesn't make any sense. Original manufacturers have interest in built-in obsolesence.
    03-20-13 05:00 PM
  17. Wongsky's Avatar
    Really, there's be nothing to read if not for all the speculative speculation threads speculating about something/anything and more likely NOTHING.

    It passes time till bbry actually releases something that is not liked by somebody which will generate new and different threads.
    It's not the mindless, desperate speculation I object to per se - although it is a bit bloody tedious.

    It's the rumour and innuendo, then next that's treated as being viable source for factual basis for further discussions. It's the inane coalescing of smoke into something assumed to have more basis that irks.

    One minute somebody makes comment or suggests something - then later on, it's referenced as a given.

    True enough - there's always going to be plenty of baseless speculation and tedious waffle, it's just the assertion or assumption of something that doesn't deserve it, that's often used as the basis for such threads.
    03-20-13 05:07 PM
  18. Mallet21's Avatar
    Is this doable?
    No.
    diegonei likes this.
    03-20-13 05:09 PM
  19. uncle_numpty's Avatar
    Thing is, it's not a pissing contest where hardware is concerned and i wish people would drop the constant race to 'improve' hardware.

    My first computer had 48k of ram and many things were just plain impossible on it according to the specs. By the end of its production lifetime developers managed to squeeze ridiculous things out of the humble 3.5 mhz processor and the 48k.

    My point is the playbook hardware is not old hat and is capable of so much more, but BB need to push out the OS updates and pick up the development pace. Which is kind of ironic seeing as 'hardware' isn't the future of the company, but the OS is.

    Thats the way i read their press releases anyway.

    Oh and i still use my humble z80 based computer at least once a week
    03-20-13 05:25 PM
  20. johnfenno's Avatar

    Oh and i still use my humble z80 based computer at least once a week
    what for?? just curious lol
    03-21-13 08:03 AM
  21. meltbox360's Avatar
    There is no reason qnx shouldn't be able to recognize the extra ram. Same for the chipset. When the xbox360 had rrod problems people would reflow it all the time. Its possible, just difficult. I wojld do it if I could get mg hands on someone who knows what they are doing aand a cheap playbook. You could probably contact someone on ebay who did xbox reflows and ask if they would be willing to try a playbook reflow for some price. Depending on the price they miht take you up on it.
    03-21-13 08:25 AM
  22. djenkins6's Avatar
    On the zx spectrums and the like in the early 80's there were people doing memory upgrades by disabling existing memory by disconnecting one or two pins of the chips, and then soldering new chips on top. There probably isn't enough room in a playbook for an extra chip adding thickness though.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-13 08:48 AM
  23. diegonei's Avatar
    The Dev Alpha device running BB10 runs just fine and I still play Angry Birds Star Wars on it and I don't see any difference when I run it on my Z10. Please top thinking that BB10 won't run fine on the Playbook. Otherwise, BB wouldn't be working on making it happen.
    Sorry, but if AngryBirds was all we had to worry about, we wouldn't be discussing adding Ram to the thing...
    03-21-13 09:45 AM
  24. uncle_numpty's Avatar
    what for?? just curious lol
    Writng and play games mostly - I like dabbling in assembly for my sins
    meltbox360 likes this.
    03-21-13 11:06 AM
  25. axllebeer's Avatar
    As has been said many times, BB10 is just a name. From PlayBook to Z10, it's all running QNX. We will get an upgrade that will employ all the main functionality as is on the Z10 and the apps that will come along with it.

    I don't care what it's called. Thats my main beef.
    03-21-13 11:58 AM
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