01-06-12 04:26 PM
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  1. BBBrooklynFAN's Avatar
    Repeat after me: there's room in the market for more than one product.
    Tell that to Betamax and HD-DVD

    There isn't room for more than three mobile computing OS.

    Judging by the PC market, probably not more than two.
    Last edited by BBBrooklynFAN; 01-05-12 at 06:35 PM.
    01-05-12 06:29 PM
  2. moretreelessbush's Avatar
    I don't think buying QNX is the issue.

    1. QNX has a stellar reputation in running real time systems.
    It has been widely adopted in varies industries.

    2. RIM bought QNX as well as the software team/company that built it, including one of the two creators who is still running the QNX team.
    01-05-12 06:36 PM
  3. Economist101's Avatar
    I don't get why people still consider the iPad the main competitor. A year ago, maybe, but 7' tablets running Android got to be the far bigger threat now, and given the pace Android vendors have been churning out products, the threat will only grow bigger.
    If you look at the numbers, you'll see that Android vendors have been churning out products a lot quicker than people have been willing to buy them.

    Repeat after me: there's room in the market for more than one product.
    Sure, that sounds great, but is useless if people aren't t interested in the product at issue. As the sales have shown, RIM can't sell a fairly priced talet in this market, and they lack the cash to continue the heavy discounting they've been doing recently.
    01-05-12 06:39 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    I don't think buying QNX is the issue.

    1. QNX has a stellar reputation in running real time systems.
    It has been widely adopted in varies industries.

    2. RIM bought QNX as well as the software team/company that built it, including one of the two creators who is still running the QNX team.
    QNX is about a tenth of a complete OS. It's just a kernel. Nobody on that team has actually built a complete operating system, because that was never QNX's business. They sold a kernel and some basic tools around it that couldn't possibly work on a phone.

    I really honestly think now that RIM management didn't know that. Their wife sent them to the store to buy a cake and they came home with a bail of wheat and a cow.

    Probably a very nice bail of wheat, and a pretty cow. But not a cake.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-05-12 at 06:45 PM.
    01-05-12 06:42 PM
  5. moretreelessbush's Avatar
    QNX is much more than that.

    RIM bought QNX from Harman, which among other things has built in-dashboard entertainment and navigation systems running QNX, even the form factor is similar to that of a 7' tablet.
    Last edited by moretreelessbush; 01-05-12 at 07:00 PM.
    peter9477 likes this.
    01-05-12 06:56 PM
  6. Pearl9100's Avatar
    Intriguing story. Total fiction.

    So the company and the tablet was wrecked by "infighting" and "chaos". Whose job is it in a sane company to contain infighting and chaos?

    The board, whose job is to supervise management, didn't punish the clowns who were responsible for "infighting" and "chaos". It made technical decisions on accounting and computing OS instead?

    Doesn't pass muster.
    Agreed. Everything was pure speculation. Great opinion, but it holds no water unless someone has proof.

    That's how I see it, too. They don't have to compete directly with the ipad. They just have to have a successful relaunch and provide some apps that grab interest and attention. How many tv brands are there competing in all different screen sizes. How many different Android phones? Variety/Choice - nothing wrong with that.

    Obviously, they are going to have to figure out pricing and see if OS2 and what it adds helps. They also have to figure out retail sales. Clearly, US carriers are not very interested in it since there's no data plan (whereas Apple has a device that requires a plan). Also US carriers seem to have even denied their phones shelf space.

    But stay/go/limp/abandon - all we are all doing is speculating until rim makes its move.
    A lot of companies that are producing tvs are losing gobs of money. There was even an article in yahoo news (I think the original source was the associated press). My point is, rim will have to compete much more aggressively in the fierce tablet market when consumer dollars are shrinking at a fast rate. I don't think rim will be able to aggressively fix the software issues with the pb in order to increase their market share.

    You can't shrink a company to greatness. The only option is to grow in some way, otherwise you are essentially moving backwards. RIM needs to analyse and understand where they went wrong with their initial PB launch and they must address those problems and move forward. Abandoning the tablet business will absolutely kill their smartphone business. They need a viable tablet to pair with their phones, especially in the corporate space where they are still strong. The day will come when tablets are standard hardware in an enterprise along with desktops and laptops. RIM needs to use their current market strength to get in on this ASAP, otherwise Apple will move in first with the iPad then the iPhone. If RIM needs to give away the hardware for free just to get their foot in the door, then so be it. They can make the money back on licensing and software. As someone that works in IT and has dealt with large vendors and ELA's, this is not unheard of. Vendors will throw in software with the expectation that they will recoup the cost over an X year maintenance contract.

    In terms of the consumer market, assuming RIM can get BBM, email, and a wide array of Android apps working on their platform, then I see no reason why consumers would not at least consider the device, assuming it is priced lower then an iPad. The hardware is wonderful, as is the OS, of which both already make a strong case for the PB.

    Just my opinion.
    I work in IT too. BES admin here, not just some pc tech. I don't see the absolute need for a tablet. It is a luxury and can be fun to use, but it isn't as necessary as a BB with BES support at this point in time.

    just my .02
    01-05-12 07:18 PM
  7. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Intriguing story. Total fiction.

    So the company and the tablet was wrecked by "infighting" and "chaos". Whose job is it in a sane company to contain infighting and chaos?

    The board, whose job is to supervise management, didn't punish the clowns who were responsible for "infighting" and "chaos". It made technical decisions on accounting and computing OS instead?

    Doesn't pass muster.
    You don't have any more proof than I do, and your skepticism seems to be based on a deep-rooted faith in RIM's board of directors. Which Mike and Jim co-chair, so if it IS an ego-clash between the two of them, tell me who steps in? Jaguar tried.

    This actually unfolded fairly rapidly, as corporate disasters go, but I also think the opportunity exists to correct and move on.
    01-05-12 07:25 PM
  8. BBBrooklynFAN's Avatar
    You don't have any more proof than I do, and your skepticism seems to be based on a deep-rooted faith in RIM's board of directors. Which Mike and Jim co-chair, so if it IS an ego-clash between the two of them, tell me who steps in? Jaguar tried.

    This actually unfolded fairly rapidly, as corporate disasters go, but I also think the opportunity exists to correct and move on.
    I don't have any more information than you do.

    The problem with your speculation is that it's completely opposite of common sense.
    Pearl9100 likes this.
    01-05-12 07:30 PM
  9. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    That fight is lost already. The Fire alone has beaten PB effortlessly.

    The only competition the PB is still in is the "third OS" war with Windows7. There's no reason or reward for winning that fight.
    We don't really know whether the Fire's "beaten" the PB because Amazon hasn't reported anything aside from vague claims that it was its "best product launch ever". Depending on which criteria you use to define "product launch" ("out of all the flat, black devices with glass screens that we've ever sold, this has been our best launch!"). What little we do know suggests that Jeff Bezos isn't happy.

    The Fire is a mobile media store that intentionally can't hold much so that you have to periodically have to connect. The monetization on that model is clear: at some point they'll hold all your "stuff" in their cloud ransom unless you keep right on paying that Amazon Prime membership.
    01-05-12 07:33 PM
  10. app_Developer's Avatar
    QNX is much more than that.

    RIM bought QNX from Harman, which among other things has built in-dashboard entertainment and navigation systems running QNX, even the form factor is similar to that of a 7' tablet.
    Is any of the code from Harman going to be part of Cascades or BB10?

    Precisely what other than the kernel is RIM using?
    01-05-12 07:36 PM
  11. app_Developer's Avatar
    01-05-12 07:37 PM
  12. blackjack93117's Avatar
    Repeat after me: there's room in the market for more than one product.
    BRAVO Peter. Standing ovation. I could not have summed up the insanity more succinctly.
    Is there only one automobile to choose from?

    Well hmm Honda Accords are selling a heck of a lot better, surely Ford is going to fail and abandon the Mustang.

    Well maybe not the best analogy but....
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    01-05-12 07:40 PM
  13. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I don't have any more information than you do.

    The problem with your speculation is that it's completely opposite of common sense.
    As criticisms go, that's rather vague. What would "common sense" dictate here?

    Look, you've argued up and down in this thread and many others that RIM is completely clueless, and that they have no clue what they're doing with the PBOS. I can tell you that I actually DO see:
    • Marked improvement in many parts of the OS in the 2.0 Developer Preview.
    • Actual Android compatibility in the Developer Preview.
    • Android developers who are interested in selling apps to PB 2.0 users once its released.
    • Improved developer support from major publishers. Why would they commit if RIM couldn't convince them they'd be staying with the platform?

    You've also tried to claim they're incapable of making a PIM work, which frankly run FAR more counter to "common sense" than the notion that they could certainly provide that functionality, but management got so caught up in an ego-driven turf war that they couldn't decide HOW to provide it.

    You're trying to blame incompetence, and I see plenty of evidence to the contrary. I blame mismanagement, and there's TONS of evidence to support THAT.
    01-05-12 07:42 PM
  14. Pearl9100's Avatar
    BRAVO Peter. Standing ovation. I could not have summed up the insanity more succinctly.
    Is there only one automobile to choose from?

    Well hmm Honda Accords are selling a heck of a lot better, surely Ford is going to fail and abandon the Mustang.

    Well maybe not the best analogy but....
    Faulty comparison. A Honda Accord is not comparable to a Mustang. They are not priced similarly, do not offer similar performance, and do not offer similar options.
    01-05-12 07:44 PM
  15. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I really think the Board and at least Balsillie had no real understanding of what they were buying with QNX. And then a lot of bad decisions and bad communication followed from that. And then you could see how chaos would follow as light bulbs finally started to turn on.

    Imagine if the Android team way back on day one had cloned the Linux repository and then said "cool we got Linux. So we're what, about a year away from a finished shipping device with a completely new mobile OS that we haven't even started on yet?"

    That is exactly what they did at RIM. It had to have been out of ignorance.
    Do we know for sure that it was really that bad?

    I mean, if QNX started from absolutely nothing, that UI shows an awful lot of polish.

    I won't deny the possibility, but to be honest if it were really that incomplete wouldn't it have affected the user experience?
    01-05-12 07:46 PM
  16. BBBrooklynFAN's Avatar
    We don't really know whether the Fire's "beaten" the PB because Amazon hasn't reported anything aside from vague claims that it was its "best product launch ever". Depending on which criteria you use to define "product launch" ("out of all the flat, black devices with glass screens that we've ever sold, this has been our best launch!"). What little we do know suggests that Jeff Bezos isn't happy.

    The Fire is a mobile media store that intentionally can't hold much so that you have to periodically have to connect. The monetization on that model is clear: at some point they'll hold all your "stuff" in their cloud ransom unless you keep right on paying that Amazon Prime membership.
    It must be a new height to deny that the Fire has beaten the Playbook.

    The only numbers RIM has posted about PB is how much it has "shipped", which was still south of 850,000. There are a lot of evidence that RIM is unhappy about the product. RIM shareholders, at least.

    Kindle Fire may have singed iPad sales as iPhone sees best quarter | Technology | guardian.co.uk

    data from Amazon which suggested it could have sold between 4m and 5m of its Kindle Fire tablet
    Don't hate on another company just because it has a viable business model.
    01-05-12 07:47 PM
  17. blackjack93117's Avatar
    Faulty comparison. A Honda Accord is not comparable to a Mustang. They are not priced similarly, do not offer similar performance, and do not offer similar options.
    lol i knew the nitpickies would be on me - i just picked a couple cars. Point is what Peter said there is room for more than one tablet on the market. because one succeeds does not mean the other fails. The whole comparison thing is ridiculous.
    01-05-12 07:51 PM
  18. Economist101's Avatar
    BRAVO Peter. Standing ovation. I could not have summed up the insanity more succinctly.
    Is there only one automobile to choose from?

    Well hmm Honda Accords are selling a heck of a lot better, surely Ford is going to fail and abandon the Mustang.

    Well maybe not the best analogy but....
    Ford isn't selling all trim levels of the Mustang for the same price, with the biggest discount (56%) on the most powerful model. Feel free to try again, though.


    lol i knew the nitpickies would be on me - i just picked a couple cars. Point is what Peter said there is room for more than one tablet on the market. because one succeeds does not mean the other fails. The whole comparison thing is ridiculous.
    You're right. When the PB is discontinued it will NOT be because of the iPad.
    Last edited by Economist101; 01-05-12 at 07:54 PM.
    01-05-12 07:51 PM
  19. peter9477's Avatar
    Sure, that sounds great, but is useless if people aren't t interested in the product at issue. As the sales have shown, RIM can't sell a fairly priced talet in this market, and they lack the cash to continue the heavy discounting they've been doing recently.
    Correction: RIM hasn't yet been able to sell their existing tablet at a fair price into the market. I readily grant that point.

    Those arguing that "it's a failure" are conveniently ignoring the fact that things can change, and they should admit the possibility that with a big enough improvement in 2.0, combined with the obvious interest from people during the holiday sales, the PlayBook could actually succeed.

    Really, this should all be a debate about the likelihood of that, rather than it constantly having to turn into a battle of absolutes.

    Fact: There's a possibility that RIM could succeed.

    Fact: There's a possibility they could fail.

    All else is opinion or debate about the likelihood of either, though many here seem to think by stating opinion as fact they gain some advantage over their opponents. They actually lose credibility with reasonable people by doing so, to the degree to which they pretend to know the future or to which they state as reality what clearly isn't yet.
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    01-05-12 07:52 PM
  20. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Faulty comparison. A Honda Accord is not comparable to a Mustang. They are not priced similarly, do not offer similar performance, and do not offer similar options.
    I don't think it's a faulty comparison at all. Different devices serve different markets. Sure, there's some overlap and competition, and manufacturers all want to have as large a footprint as possible, but some facts remain:

    Some people want a 7" tablet, for instance, over a 10". Maybe not tons, but definitely some. Some people just don't by Apple for whatever misguided reasons. Some people have privacy concerns about Android (because Google sucks a LOT of usage information out of it). Some are brand/quality conscious.

    My point here is that there is probably room for more than a couple of platforms. The platform itself probably isn't as important here as it was with PC's, anyway.
    01-05-12 07:52 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    Do we know for sure that it was really that bad?

    I mean, if QNX started from absolutely nothing, that UI shows an awful lot of polish.

    I won't deny the possibility, but to be honest if it were really that incomplete wouldn't it have affected the user experience?
    Oh, believe me, I give them a lot of credit for how much they did as quickly as they did it.

    But it is much, much easier to build a UI for a handful of apps then it is to build a general purpose UI framework that for thousands of apps from thousands of developers.
    01-05-12 07:53 PM
  22. peter9477's Avatar
    But it is much, much easier to build a UI for a handful of apps then it is to build a general purpose UI framework that for thousands of apps from thousands of developers.
    That's true. Remember that thing called Flash? And AIR (which is basically Flash)? That's what QNX already had and brought to the table(t) at the beginning of the project, from past efforts over several years.

    But your point is also valid about the Cascades stuff... Flash was one thing, but pretty clearly (now) a bit of a stopgap. It's been doing fine for many things (e.g. the Settings pages are still Flash) but it's not enough, and it's also now clear that Cascades is taking a long time to get out the door... definitely not an easy task.

    (Oh, and along with Flash they had filesystems. And drivers. And networking. And a bunch of other stuff that the term "kernel" generally excludes. I guess they had more than just a kernel after all. )
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    01-05-12 08:00 PM
  23. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    It must be a new height to deny that the Fire has beaten the Playbook.

    The only numbers RIM has posted about PB is how much it has "shipped", which was still south of 850,000. There are a lot of evidence that RIM is unhappy about the product. RIM shareholders, at least.

    Kindle Fire may have singed iPad sales as iPhone sees best quarter | Technology | guardian.co.uk



    Don't hate on another company just because it has a viable business model.
    See, I think a case could be made that when the iPad sales numbers came out a little soft, analysts settled on the first sensible explanation. And, indeed, maybe it WAS the Kindle that did it. We don't know.

    I don't think it's impossible that the iPad is maturing as a product, though, either, and maybe its sales are leveling until its own refresh comes up.

    And I'm not "hating" on Amazon's business model. In fact, for Amazon it's an entirely appropriate one; they're really a content retailer, not a gadget company. What they want to do is establish a channel to make people dependent on them as a content provider. That's totally cool, but people should really consider what they're getting. It's doubtful Amazon is making any margin on those devices at that retail price.
    01-05-12 08:02 PM
  24. Economist101's Avatar
    Correction: RIM hasn't yet been able to sell their existing tablet at a fair price into the market. I readily grant that point.

    Those arguing that "it's a failure" are conveniently ignoring the fact that things can change, and they should admit the possibility that with a big enough improvement in 2.0, combined with the obvious interest from people during the holiday sales, the PlayBook could actually succeed.
    You realize these paragraphs are inconsistent, right? If RIM can't sell its tablet at a profit, it doesn't matter that people were willing to buy it. RIM essentially paid those people to take the product. This strategy works fine if you're Microsoft and you're willing to lose money for 7 years before your product has even a profitable quarter, but RIM doesn't have the cash, the share price or the ultra-lucrative primary business to support that type of strategy.
    01-05-12 08:04 PM
  25. BBBrooklynFAN's Avatar
    You realize these paragraphs are inconsistent, right? If RIM can't sell its tablet at a profit, it doesn't matter that people were willing to buy it. RIM essentially paid those people to take the product. This strategy works fine if you're Microsoft and you're willing to lose money for 7 years before your product has even a profitable quarter, but RIM doesn't have the cash, the share price or the ultra-lucrative primary business to support that type of strategy.
    To put it even more succinctly, a company with an 8 billion dollar market cap cannot afford too many half billion writedowns for "not a failure"s.
    01-05-12 08:08 PM
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