01-06-12 03:26 PM
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  1. blackjack93117's Avatar
    Wake up! It's over. RIM needs to sell-off the inventory. They are not making any more.

    The future of the RIM phones is on shaky ground too.
    I don't trust the 850k figure... Seems high...

    Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk

    A couple of credible sources from the ethosphere with 16 posts between them

    In my opinion RIM won't stay in the market with a 850-1million (1% market share), its not worth the hardware, software, dev team investment and the shareholders won't stand for it.

    Once the co-ceo's go the strategy will change back to bread and butter or someone will buy them out.
    except that these are old figures and that all of that investnent will be leveraged by the coming QNX phones.
    Last edited by blackjack93117; 01-04-12 at 08:20 AM.
    01-04-12 08:16 AM
  2. alnamvet68's Avatar
    A couple of credible sources from the ethosphere with 16 posts between them



    except that these are old figures and that all of that investnent also goes toward the coming QNX phones.
    I noticed that too, but.....................
    01-04-12 08:18 AM
  3. rvision's Avatar
    Fair point about developing QNX for the future phones, but my concern with QNX phones is thats not tried and tested, its failing already with RIMS name! It didnt get the PB addoption they wanted, so why suddenly will everyone want a phone with QNX. If the basic apps arent available, which is what the mobile market wants then who are the new consumers going to be.

    Also rolling out new QNX devices to the enterprise world is going to be a nightmare for IT depatments. It will be a case of XP to Win 7, enterprises will put off the change for as long as possible, stockpile old devices, not wanting to invest time in internally security clearing QNX, procuring new devices, infra and licenses. We have in the region of 40,000 BB devices and 8000 buy your own ipad with GOOD license. Our model is moving more towards buy your own mobile device, than the enerprise these days.
    01-04-12 08:27 AM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    except that these are old figures and that all of that investnent will be leveraged by the coming QNX phones.
    When you say old figures do mean sell in or sell through? I'm trying to get a handle on how many of these things are out there now.
    01-04-12 08:52 AM
  5. Magalaan's Avatar
    Fair point about developing QNX for the future phones, but my concern with QNX phones is thats not tried and tested, its failing already with RIMS name! It didnt get the PB addoption they wanted, so why suddenly will everyone want a phone with QNX. If the basic apps arent available, which is what the mobile market wants then who are the new consumers going to be.

    Also rolling out new QNX devices to the enterprise world is going to be a nightmare for IT depatments. It will be a case of XP to Win 7, enterprises will put off the change for as long as possible, stockpile old devices, not wanting to invest time in internally security clearing QNX, procuring new devices, infra and licenses. We have in the region of 40,000 BB devices and 8000 buy your own ipad with GOOD license. Our model is moving more towards buy your own mobile device, than the enerprise these days.
    The are not marketing it as QNX. Windows XP was a total new OS too, but they kept calling it Windows. I think they have no choice, like Nokia had to develop something new too, but they were stupid enough not to call it Symbian, that when everybody starts feeling abandoned.

    A 7" inch tablet is in many respects a bigger phone and there is market for it. I think they made mistake of directing it too much for the consumer market. Playbook? Companies do not buy a playstation for there personnel. The bridge was great, but the message the send was dualistic. It was trashed in the reviews because it was seen as a consumer device and does not have a large enough candy store. But it should have never appealed to that market. A business tablet does not need a hundred thousand apps, just some excellent tools for managers, secretaries, salesman.

    Nowadays I see a lot of traveling salesmen with tablets instead of notebooks, because it is lighter and in a meeting you can lay it on a table, share info, make notes. Sitting behind a notebook is like introducing a barrier between you and others. This tablet is okay, it has the right formfactor, the system is secure, and stable. Give it another name: Workbook, travelmate, something like that. That is BB's market.

    I love it that they make Android available, but once this is done it should be left at that and they should concentrate on tools for the business market. I can imagine lots of apps that could make it an indispensable tool in a working environment. That is their market. This is not a plaything, it to damn good for that. It has industrial quality. For God's sake QNS is used in nuclear plants, it is that safe. It is future proof, develop it and create great business product.

    The youngsters that buy blackberry do it for just a few things like ping, and because they do not want to be seen with something their parents carry no matter how many apps it has. They do not need a plaything. They simply like the easy communication aspects. I think they can fix it, but it is a marketing thing as much as an app thing.

    Most business devices in the past became a succes just because of one killer app. The spreadsheet on the apple, the word processor in the PC. If it is a great help business will buy it. You really do not need a big appstore. That is where they made the mistake. They should have made an appstore for business. The build in apps are great, but its lacks special business tools. They have to get their marketing right. Stop competing with Android, iPad in the consumer market, that is not the environment you want to be in with this device. Youngster will still buy it if the communication aspects are unique. They love the idea communication is so easy and totally secret. But that is only a bonus for a company in a business environment. You do not need to target this group as they dislike marketing anyway. Look how well MS Kin fared. People in suits can not understand another generation and they should not try.
    Last edited by Magalaan; 01-04-12 at 09:09 AM.
    KOOLWATER and thedark722 like this.
    01-04-12 08:58 AM
  6. alnamvet68's Avatar
    That's why I have a thread on a possible new name for the PB.
    01-04-12 09:01 AM
  7. JK-PhD's Avatar
    I guess the point I was trying to make was why would RIM give up on the Playbook now when they havent yet released OS 2? They should release and market it heavily. If it doesn't sell well within a few months and a lower price tag (sub $300 range) then I can see more of a reason to give up on it, but I think giving up on it now is not the right move.
    01-04-12 09:12 AM
  8. alnamvet68's Avatar
    I believe we will all be pleasantly surprised in a few weeks.
    01-04-12 09:14 AM
  9. blackjack93117's Avatar
    When you say old figures do mean sell in or sell through? I'm trying to get a handle on how many of these things are out there now.
    These figures were posted back in sept, 1.5mil made, 850k sold through I believe. Though there was some controversy about how many were returned, etc. I would.like to know the updated figures as well.
    01-04-12 09:23 AM
  10. Economist101's Avatar
    These figures were posted back in sept, 1.5mil made, 850k sold through I believe. Though there was some controversy about how many were returned, etc. I would.like to know the updated figures as well.
    The figures in September were 700k shipped (sell in) since launch. Specifically, RIM reported 500K sell in during the first six weeks (Q1) and 200K during Q2. Therefore, they hadn't even shipped 850K PlayBooks in September, much less sold them to consumers. In fact, in Q3 they shipped 150K, meaning It was only by the end of November that they hit 850K shipped.

    http://www.rim.com/investors/documen...nformation.pdf

    http://www.rim.com/investors/documen...nformation.pdf

    http://www.rim.com/investors/documen...nformation.pdf
    app_Developer and rvision like this.
    01-04-12 09:36 AM
  11. blackjack93117's Avatar
    Anyone know when the updated figures will be out ?
    01-04-12 10:20 AM
  12. app_Developer's Avatar
    Anyone know when the updated figures will be out ?
    I suppose we'll see sell-in figures in March.

    But has RIM reported any actual sell through numbers? I don't see that in the quarterlies or searching on this forum.
    rvision likes this.
    01-04-12 10:23 AM
  13. rvision's Avatar
    so lets call it a round million shipped, give or take 5000 stolen. that leaves them 500k more to ship from the original manufacture run. if they made anymore after Q1 id be a very worried shareholder.

    maybe we could collectively go round and count the outstanding stock on the shelves for them.
    01-04-12 10:30 AM
  14. Economist101's Avatar
    I suppose we'll see sell-in figures in March.

    But has RIM reported any actual sell through numbers? I don't see that in the quarterlies or searching on this forum.
    RIM hasn't reported PlayBook sell-out at all, but to be fair, that's how companies who get paid on sell-in generally eport.
    slash x likes this.
    01-04-12 10:31 AM
  15. FF22's Avatar
    I guess the point I was trying to make was why would RIM give up on the Playbook now when they havent yet released OS 2? They should release and market it heavily. If it doesn't sell well within a few months and a lower price tag (sub $300 range) then I can see more of a reason to give up on it, but I think giving up on it now is not the right move.
    It may not be a case of rim giving up on it as users giving up on rim.

    There is probably a double market. Phones with email and phones with EVERYTHING. Many now want the EVERYTHING which means apps. Getting the development environment going has been slow. Tools are still not there from what our local favorite developers have said (whatever cascade is, it is NOT available). Obviously some developers will be willing to develop for yet a 3rd OS (qnx) but many will probably be satisfied with the I-environment or the A-environment and not go out on a limb.

    I admit I know nothing about compatibility with older I-OS and A-OS, but rim has always managed to force changes each time they've changed to a new OS. I'm sure that have also driven some developers to distraction.

    I hope we get a full OS2 and not expect much beyond that for a while.

    We shall see. These speculative, philosophical discussions can be interminable and unresolvable. So have at it.
    01-04-12 10:37 AM
  16. nogutsnoglory's Avatar
    After reading the linked article (thanks for the link) I am very skeptical of the motives of Vic Alboini. I don't know much about him so maybe i shouldn't be commenting but I wonder if his call for the break up of RIM has anything to do with Jaquar's Apple or Google holdings. I would think that the demise of RIM would only help these 2 companies.

    I also believe that the break up of RIM is extremely short sighted and in the long run a very foolish and ignorant move. While the current management team is in need of a big shake up, the architecture for a competitive company is there, they just need a new management team. Speaking as someone who tried the HTC Thunderbolt 4G phone earlier this summer, I can tell you that I was prepared to take a $250 loss when I decided after a month that I could get along without my Blackberry Tour (OS5). The HTC had its advantages but it couldn't hold a candle to RIM's intergrated platform at least from a business perspective.

    I have said it before, even the current OS 7 could compete with the like of Apple and Droid, at least for certain users. The current stable of BB products is a vast improvement over the prior versions. RIM's challenge is to inform the public that it has taken "Bold" (pun intended) steps forward. Maybe RIM will never be the number 1 smart phone maker, but it could be a of a lot more competitive based on its current products.

    The shareholders are getting restless and it may not be long before the Tweedle dee and Tweedle dum CEO's are dumped. The call for the breakup of RIM has started. What it means for the future of the playbook is anyone's guess at this point.

    RIM has "lost it": Shareholders call for company break-up, or sell-off | ZDNet
    peter9477 likes this.
    01-04-12 10:51 AM
  17. VerryBestr's Avatar
    Actually, RIM did sort-of report sell out, for the first time, for the last quarter. Sell out was said to be somewhat higher then sell in, which was approximately 150,000 PlayBooks.

    The best way I've seen to track PlayBook sales was described by CB user Artwerks in this thread: http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...s-sell-673285/ . He noted that a FaceBook page tracks the number of monthly active users of the PlayBook FaceBook app. He suggested increasing that number by 50% to arrive at the total number of PlayBooks in use -- see his thread for his reasoning.

    Here is a link to the FaceBook page: Facebook for BlackBerry® PlayBook . It increments in steps of 10,000 users. It was 120,000 in September, and right now indicates 410,000 users.

    So there are at a very minimum 410,000 PlayBook users (who use the FaceBook app). The sales are clearly ramping up the PlayBook community. If the 50% increase is reasonable, then there are somewhat over 600,000 PlayBook users now.
    Last edited by VerryBestr; 01-04-12 at 11:03 AM.
    app_Developer likes this.
    01-04-12 11:00 AM
  18. cfarm3's Avatar
    Tons of armchair CEOs in here. Funny stuff, some of it.

    Tablets are "it" for the foreseeable future. We can argue all on whether the Playbook could ever be a contender. But if you want to be serious in the hardware market you compete in the space. It's amazing the number of "well we didn't get it right the first time, so let's go home" types in here.

    Think Apple hit it right with all their first attempts at product on the path to where they are today?

    Should we list the hardware failures littering their past? Or maybe list Microsoft's?

    Then there are those posting who rail about how the PB doesn't meet their personal needs and therefore must be labeled a failure. Others don't see the personal need for the robust security features and want to ditch those.

    Apple dominates in the table market today just like MS once did for OS and Netscape did for browsers. You remember Netscape, right?

    Short memories and a tinge too much sociopathic style commentary, me thinks.

    RIM has said they are committed to tablets and all kinds of people insisting they are not. CES is next week and people can't connect the dots on the inventory reduction of the current models? I realize forums like these are leisure time killers, but some of the logic in play is just amazing.

    The beauty of a feature like bridge is I get a 7" tablet that uses my phone for internet access on the go and I don't incur any additional out of pocket on my monthly bill. But again and again people here insisting a 3G or 4G radio needs to be added, which for all carriers means you're increasing your monthly costs.

    Some of the suggestions here are completely self defeating.

    Suggestion: if you're one of the referenced "restless" shareholders, sell your stake and move on. The motives of the investment firm are purely profit based and have little to do with innovation.

    But now I'm playing that armchair CEO, so I digress.......
    hpjrt, peter9477, bbvj and 2 others like this.
    01-04-12 11:18 AM
  19. Economist101's Avatar
    Apple dominates in the table market today just like MS once did for OS and Netscape did for browsers. You remember Netscape, right?
    I do, but apparently you don't remember that Microsoft still runs a dominant OS, and it's not close.

    Short memories and a tinge too much sociopathic style commentary, me thinks.
    So says the guy who thinks Microsoft no longer runs a dominant OS.

    RIM has said they are committed to tablets and all kinds of people insisting they are not. CES is next week and people can't connect the dots on the inventory reduction of the current models? I realize forums like these are leisure time killers, but some of the logic in play is just amazing.
    "Inventory reduction" is an awfully antiseptic way of describing RIM selling 64GB PlayBooks for $400 off the original $600 price. As for CES, if you want to place a bet on whether RIM will be announcing new PlayBook hardware there, I'm game.
    01-04-12 11:32 AM
  20. White9900's Avatar
    RIM are you listening We think the Playbook is a contender now get off your backsides and make it a champion!

    The button-less scrolling between Apps, the size, and the ease of use are all Knockout!

    Just put the software package together so it can perform and you will have the first Canadian Heavy Weight Tablet Champion this centuary. What are you waiting for?

    Just go out there and knock Ipad's block off!!!
    omniusovermind likes this.
    01-04-12 11:59 AM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    But if you want to be serious in the hardware market you compete in the space. It's amazing the number of "well we didn't get it right the first time, so let's go home" types in here.
    But given that the revenue per unit is so much less than RIM originally planned, don't you think they would at least find a way to make the units a bit cheaper if they do stay in this market? When the Playbook was introduced it was competing against iPad2 at iPad2 prices. Now, it's competing against Kindle Fire and possibly even a reduced priced iPad2.

    CES is next week and people can't connect the dots on the inventory reduction of the current models? I realize forums like these are leisure time killers, but some of the logic in play is just amazing.
    So you're confident that new hardware will be introduced at CES?
    pantlesspenguin likes this.
    01-04-12 12:12 PM
  22. Interloper.'s Avatar

    The beauty of a feature like bridge is I get a 7" tablet that uses my phone for internet access on the go and I don't incur any additional out of pocket on my monthly bill. But again and again people here insisting a 3G or 4G radio needs to be added, which for all carriers means you're increasing your monthly costs.
    US carriers != all carriers. Here in Canada the majority of carriers have no tethering costs if you have 1 gig of data or more on your plan. Tethering fees are, I believe, extremely rare outside the US. I get 6 gigs per month for a grand total of $30, no tethering fee required. Any wireless device (4 at a time, actually) within wifi range of my phone (3G data to my phone, wifi from my phone to these devices) has full and quick access to the internet. I have been averaging 4 megabits/sec down, 1.5 megabits / sec up for over a year now, but for some reason these speeds have increased significantly in the last month or so. This feature has been transformative for me. Corporate firewalls have effectively ceased to exist for example.

    What does your bluetooth Bridge average to your sole usable bridged device?

    RIM is getting *hammered* in the US market.
    BlackBerry market share slides again amid takeover talk - Telegraph
    19.7% to 16.6% in *3 months* to the end of November!
    16.6 / 19.7 = .843.
    1 - .843 = .157 Down 15.7 % in *3 months*
    .157 / 3 = .053 Averaging about 5% loss per *month*
    I think it's safe to say, considering how positive the markets and press reports were about the delay of the BBX phones to "the latter half of 2012", that this loss pattern is accelerating.

    I know that RIM management played up international growth in their Dec earnings call and tried to deemphasise The US numbers because they were so pathetic. *RIM itself* implies much of their future growth and profits are outside the US (Indonesians seem to love RIM).

    Back to the Playbook. Most US carriers bend their customers over with a "tethering fee". Most non-US carriers (remember US != World) do not. Without tethering fees, almost any modern smartphone (I use an iPhone 4s, but modern Android phones work fine too) can freely access a subscribers data plan without penalty. The bridge *advantage* is not in this case. You and the diminishing proportion of US Blackberry users are becoming less and less relevant to RIM's desperate attempt to survive. Products, *including tablets* need to address this new reality. A 3G or 4G radio in the Playbook would help to address this international market but, in my opinion, a PlayBook with this feature (or a new PlayBook at all) will never be released. I've posted my reasons for this conclusion before if you are interested.
    01-04-12 12:17 PM
  23. VerryBestr's Avatar
    I'll continue arguing that the PlayBook (or another tablet) is a strategic necessity for RIM. A reasonably useful tablet, administered by BES, is absolutely critical to RIM's future in the large enterprise and government sector.

    I was just reading this article: The iPad is an incredible tool for work — if your IT department will allow it | VentureBeat . I think it is an excellent balanced article about the demand for iPads in the enterprise, their potentially useful applications, the resistance to iPads, and the difficulty of administering them.

    As it points out, tablets could be incredibly useful and they could be cost-effective in the enterprise. The demand is there. But iPads present certain disadvantages. This article notes that "Apple's claim that 93 percent of Fortune 500 companies are deploying or testing iPads probably skews heavily toward the 'testing' phase." There is still time for RIM to get part of this market, as large enterprises move slowly.

    Once a large enterprise adopts the iPad in a big way, I strongly suspect its BES and BlackBerry installation will be doomed. That could take several years, but that enterprise would probably recenter on iPhones and iPads.

    RIM can afford to sell the PlayBook into enterprises at a loss, as a defennsive move. The PlayBook will soon be administered by BES, so at least RIM would recoup some of this loss on BES licenses and tech support fees. More importantly, this would protect its BES and BlackBerry installations.
    Last edited by VerryBestr; 01-04-12 at 12:21 PM.
    01-04-12 12:18 PM
  24. White9900's Avatar
    The future is a blank canvas but RIM are not very good Artists!

    This is why Apple do so well along with Pixar they employ great visionary types who create and shape the future with detailed brushstrokes: not slap and dash works!

    The Playbook is great the software sucks, fix that and it stands a chance if not the painting is on the canvas Playbook dies.
    01-04-12 01:24 PM
  25. VerryBestr's Avatar
    I agree, RIM is in trouble. I also think that RIM has a great plaln and that RIM has made extremely good choices with the companies they have bought. On the other hand, execution has not been very good.

    But RIM does have strengths, some strong markets, a strong patent/license position, some time ... and plenty of cash. What in the world do you mean by "needed cash"? Of course, all companies need cash -- but RIM's cash position has been pretty constant (minus the large patent purchase) over the last few quarters, even with the money lost and written off on the PlayBook.
    peter9477 likes this.
    01-04-12 01:35 PM
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