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  1. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    I hear what you're saying and the "too wordy" part is wide open for discussion as far as I'm concerned (personally I disagree, but then again I am the original autohor). I do however strongly feel we needn't throw numbers around, as this is still a proposal not an invocation of a guilt trip on their part.
    08-16-13 04:01 AM
  2. msps's Avatar
    Somebody have to tell them the truth and give them a reason NOT to ignore 'a proposal'
    Do you want their standard reply to proposals:
    "Thanks for your letter. We'll evaluate our strategy and will share when we do have new information"

    Fact:
    They have absolutely no idea how to market and advertise BB10 and their marketing department sucks
    WeAreNotAlone likes this.
    08-16-13 04:17 AM
  3. Wongsky's Avatar
    I hear what you're saying and the "too wordy" part is wide open for discussion as far as I'm concerned (personally I disagree, but then again I am the original autohor). I do however strongly feel we needn't throw numbers around, as this is still a proposal not an invocation of a guilt trip on their part.
    I disagree with your disagreement on the numbers thing.

    Not that I think BlackBerry will give a damn, anyways - but on the outside chance - business cares about quantification - even if the figures are ball-park / fast-and-loose - they at least give some indication of any benefit you may be touting because of them.

    Don't word it as a guilt-trip or accusation, play it up as a potential benefit to them, with some actual estimation and quantification.
    ViBogdan likes this.
    08-16-13 04:39 AM
  4. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    I disagree with your disagreement to my disagreement... (sorry, couldn't resist):
    My main problem with this is that you'd be telling them/focusing on stuff I assume they already (should) know, making it hard to make it sound as being NOT overly "aggressive". And if they deny these facts to begin with, there is no way we'll be able to "do business" with them anyway.
    But maybe it's just in my nature to take things relatively slow and friendly. Luckily I am also relatively easily swayed at this point. But I'd want to hear some more opinions on this, if possible...
    08-16-13 05:21 AM
  5. Wongsky's Avatar
    I disagree with your disagreement to my disagreement... (sorry, couldn't resist):
    My main problem with this is that you'd be telling them/focusing on stuff I assume they already (should) know, making it hard to make it sound as being NOT overly "aggressive". And if they deny these facts to begin with, there is no way we'll be able to "do business" with them anyway.
    But maybe it's just in my nature to take things relatively slow and friendly. Luckily I am also relatively easily swayed at this point. But I'd want to hear some more opinions on this, if possible...
    All I'm saying, is that you're not dealing with an individual - a friend, somebody you are going to have a discussion with. It's effectively a proposition. To dismiss it from being dismissed and filed in the circular cabinet, you'd have to include something that has a but of mutuality - makes them think there's something worth catching their eye.

    If you try and do something like that in the real world, the first question will be some kind of quantification. Problem is, it's probably a one-shot deal - there will likely be no on-going dialog or sustaining narrative. So unless you sell it up front, it will go nowhere.

    It will probably go nowhere anyways, but using some notion of the numbers, and the potential benefit of those numbers is about the only play you've got. Ignore that at the peril of assuming you'll find the hooker-with-the-heart? Not gonna happen.

    Make it sound good from a numbers perspective, too, or go home - 'cos all that will happen, if at all, is you'll get some canned, official response.
    msps and ajp558 like this.
    08-16-13 05:51 AM
  6. schwede's Avatar
    ok - I have to admit that I would agree with msps, this time - even if the avatar scares me every time he shows up here

    See my suggestion in the attached version 0.6 -->
    Attached Files
    Hirazi Blue likes this.
    08-16-13 07:30 AM
  7. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    If you limit it to that (v.0.6), I fully agree!
    08-16-13 07:57 AM
  8. Wongsky's Avatar
    If you limit it to that (v.0.6), I fully agree!
    Just to be clear, I'd be behind some snazzy wording behind what msps put in this post specifically the notion that x % of a user base of y, that are happy, can effectively become "salesmen" or advocates of their product / company, which may hold sway in the market place.

    Not so much about keeping the user audience quiet / content / happy - but what that could mean to them - a notional percentage, happy, could be useful allies for them. I didn't mean to just include numbers about the user base - but suggest what a notional amount may do on the back of a goodwill gesture of farewell support for the device.

    Don't get me wrong - it'll likely still fall on deaf ears - but the most likely way to cut sway with them is to appeal to their sense of appeal, if you get my drift.
    08-16-13 08:29 AM
  9. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    Sorry, but isn't that just what schwede effectively already did insert in v.0.6?
    08-16-13 08:39 AM
  10. msps's Avatar
    Also from developers point of view BB10 for PB = the platform user base significantly increased within weeks (30%?).
    What is the reason for BB 10 slow sales?
    Lack of apps. Keeping devs happy should be on top of their priorities
    08-16-13 08:43 AM
  11. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    Sorry, but BB10 is definitively not a topic we should dig up in this context IMHO.
    08-16-13 08:45 AM
  12. msps's Avatar
    Though BB10 apps compatibility is part of the action?

    Edit
    Read v0.6

    Ignore BB10 comments
    08-16-13 08:47 AM
  13. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    No, not to my knowledge. The only mention of BB10 in the request part of the draft(s) relates to the infamous Bridge...
    08-16-13 08:49 AM
  14. Wongsky's Avatar
    Sorry, but isn't that just what schwede effectively already did insert in v.0.6?
    All I mean is business people, and high-up business people like to take something out of it - not just some wishy-washy X number of users, some may become strong advocates. They like it broken up or with suggested figures - those might be plucked out of thin air, and not something you can substantiate - but all the same, it gives them something to consider and work with (if they do at all with this).

    So I'd do that - I'd say user base of X, if Y% become most happy about any additional support, that give a potential Z amount of happy, vocal advocates. Simple numbers for a bottom line.

    May make no difference whatsoever - in fact the whole thing may not - but all the same, high-ups like things quantified, not merely hinted at. They tend to allow for and tolerate a bit of fast-and-loose with the accuracy / hypothesis.
    WeAreNotAlone likes this.
    08-16-13 08:50 AM
  15. gunnerfitzy's Avatar
    On the matter of BB10. The most requested feature for the PB from the consumer poll was BB10 apps compatibility. Are we not doing a disservice to those who voted in the poll not to request this? Surely BB10 app compatibility would be better than updating many of the PBOS apps?

    Posted via CB10 & my Z10
    WeAreNotAlone likes this.
    08-16-13 09:11 AM
  16. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    I really do not think that to be a wise decision. They've claimed (and I'm not saying I think it's true, BTW), that BB10 for the PB isn't possible. So, cut your losses, so to speak and make the most of the current OS, as we're also not seeking to revive the little rascal, but to give it a graceful way to die...
    08-16-13 09:18 AM
  17. schwede's Avatar
    Agreed - it would really wish that BB10 apps would run on PB but under the given circumstances we would not get a proper response on that - so the suggested approach would hopefully work as a door opener.
    08-16-13 09:22 AM
  18. gunnerfitzy's Avatar
    I agree that BB10 as an OS for the PB is a non runner however I don't believe that BB10 app compatibility was dismissed. I'm not a programmer and my knowledge in this matter is limited but isn't it at least possible to give BB10 app compatibility to the existing PBOS?

    I'll bow the majority of course however I do feel that this letter should represent the majority of PlayBook owners and the most requested feature of those who took the poll was BB10 app compatibility. Until such time as that has been categorically ruled out by BlackBerry should it not be sought?

    Posted via CB10 & my Z10
    08-16-13 10:42 AM
  19. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    I agree that BB10 as an OS for the PB is a non runner however I don't believe that BB10 app compatibility was dismissed. I'm not a programmer and my knowledge in this matter is limited but isn't it at least possible to give BB10 app compatibility to the existing PBOS?

    I'll bow the majority of course however I do feel that this letter should represent the majority of PlayBook owners and the most requested feature of those who took the poll was BB10 app compatibility. Until such time as that has been categorically ruled out by BlackBerry should it not be sought?

    Posted via CB10 & my Z10
    The thing is, there's so much debate about BB10 ability to operate on playbook 1G RAM. Also potentially it will cost the company more to do so comparing to say just switch on the USB OTG.
    08-16-13 10:54 AM
  20. Hirazi Blue's Avatar
    @gunnerfitzy - I'm no programmer either, but I would think running BB10 apps on the PB would at least some kind of "compatibility layer" or emulator. A lot of work they won't do for us I'm afraid..
    And as much as I like to take the results of the poll into account, we must realistically try to judge if and how far we can actually "run" with them, IMHO.
    08-16-13 10:59 AM
  21. gunnerfitzy's Avatar
    Folks I get what you are saying. However, in the absence of an individual knowledgeable in this area saying that it is not possible to bring BB10 app compatibility to PBOS I feel that should be sought.

    Let BlackBerry say that it is not possible, prohibitively expensive, insufficient return of investment etc. Just because they may say no to an item should not mean that it isn't included. Just because they may say no to one item should not mean that they will ignore ALL other items mentioned in the letter.

    Anyway I've made my point this, no point flogging a dead horse!!

    If the consensus is to let it out then so be it.



    Posted via CB10 & my Z10
    08-16-13 11:40 AM
  22. msps's Avatar
    Let BlackBerry say that it is not possible, prohibitively expensive, insufficient return of investment etc.
    It's not possible.

    Not without considerable time and money invested so the short answer in NO


    Bridge to PB is not possible due to BB10 devices missing some code, it's not PB OS issue.
    08-16-13 12:06 PM
  23. AWB70's Avatar
    I agree with that. Also feel the pain for most popular from the poll but the more realistic we are initially the more chance there is. I suppose if BB10 was in that poll it would have romped home but then we would be back to square one.
    08-16-13 02:37 PM
  24. WeAreNotAlone's Avatar
    I'll try to keep this short. :-)

    The fact BlackBerry had stated multiple times BB10 OS would be coming to the PlayBook, and that lead people on for MANY, MANY Months and then killing the PlayBook/BB10 OS update months down the road so it wouldn't affect BB10 device roll-out and sales IS a issue they need to be made aware of that will hurt BlackBerry in the long run.
    It was known 2012-09 BB10 on the PlayBook was a no-go, it is very deceptive to wait till 2013-06-28 to announce during a "Earnings Call" the project, the PlayBook has been killed off.

    (Going to the webpage for the PlayBook just a week or so ago, you'd think the device just rolled out.)

    For me personally after buying $4,000 worth of BlackBerry product based those statements, assurances, promises- whatever you want to call them if they (BlackBerry) does not come up with something substantial I will probably *never buy anything that says "BlackBerry" on it and will actively steer people away from the brand.

    I would bet that the majority of the 100,000 + persons that bought based upon hearing the tablet would be updated to BB10 feel the same way.

    To me BlackBerry is no better than some film-flam fly-by night company selling stuff out the back of unmarked trucks.
    ( Actually with them stating BB10 would come, then go back on that they're worse.)

    1: Android runtime should be updated to 4.xx. How long has it been @ 2.3? Since the release date?
    2: USB OTG should be turned on.
    3: Browser
    4: BB10 app compatibility.

    Q: I've read post after post from BlackBerry diehards here saying BlackBerry worked "HARD" on bringing BB10 OS to the playbook.... If they had it seems alot of work has already been done in this area.

    Advantage to BlackBerry and Developers? (Don't forget the developers)
    SALES of (BB10) apps to 2.7 million PlayBook owners. 2.7 million "Happy Customers"

    2.7 million PlayBooks getting "New" BB10 apps would result in them being "used" more so than they are now. I would venture a high percentage of PlayBooks are considered a embarrassment to their owners, hence aren't getting out in public.

    BlackBerry may think the tablet market is dead, but having "happy" customers out there totting around a tablet that says "BlackBerry" on it will generate interest, and generate sales. (Even if you have killed off the device)
    EG: During a train ride to work each day, about once or twice per week another passenger asks what kind of tablet is that. (That's 52 to 104 people per year for those drinking the kool-aide in Waterloo)
    Happy customer talks up the device, saying it's worked well from them, the manufacturer updated it often, added Android runtime to 4.xxx and has said they will update to 5.xxx when it comes out, states the device has never let them down and that it's built like a tank. (Well-built)... Later on persons that have interacted with that "happy" customer are 10 times more likely to buy BlackBerry products and during conversations are likely to relay to to others the story of that "happy" customer on the train that day.
    (Just as a FYI for BlackBerry "Word of Mouth" does generate sales. Most people distrust "Salespeople" , they put more credence into how a customer who's had the product over a extended period of time views the product.)

    Happy customers are your best salesmen.

    5: If BB10 app compatibly can't be done, see #1, #6 below

    6 Updating the Android run-time and "StreamLine" the "Side-Loading process" would make alot of people happy.
    *StreamLining Side-Loading process meaning BlackBerry provides a app that converts apk to bar, tests the app in emulation mode (Adding whatever is needed), and makes the side-loading process "end user" friendly.

    Oh, if they did that it would kill app world sales...
    Lets get real here people, most of the apps on App World are Android ports, and at this point with BlackBerry killing off the PlayBook/going back on their WORD BB10 would be a reality for the PlayBook not many developers are going to be adding apps to App World. They are going to be focusing on BB10 device customers.

    As a idea to protect the remaining (3) developers... BlackBerry could sway persons from sourcing Android apps elsewhere by "ADDING VALUE" to apps sold via APP WORLD.

    Hey everyone, If you buy from BlackBerry App World:

    All apps have been thoroughly tested (Which is probably a lie)
    We realize Time is money, with a simple mouse click the app is installed. No need to spend hours tracking down, converting apps from other sources.
    All apps sold via app world have had ALL the Android TRACKING and DATA-MINING functions stripped out of them. We guarantee it! Your DATA and PERSONAL, BUSINESS INFO is SAFE with apps you buy from BlackBerry App World.
    If for some reason xyz app does not fulfill your needs, or doesn't work properly will have a no-hassle double you money back policy, Click here, and we'll refund you money with a smile- We stand behind what we sell 200% !


    If they did that, or would have done that day one the PlayBook came out the PlayBook probably would have been a commercial success. If they would do the a above now it would result in hordes of "happy" customers, hundreds of thousands of PlayBooks being shown off while the device was out in public.


    BTW: Forgot to mention if they streamlined the side-loading process one thing that would help with APP World sales would be during the" streamlined side loading process" a list of apps being installed is transmitted /logged (with your permission- you can block this) With that list developers can use that info to develop "official" ports.

    As a last step effort to pusaude people to buy from app world instead of side-loading:
    If xyz app being side-loading during the "StreamLined Side-Loading Process" is added to the que to be converted from apk to bar. is already on "App World" a pop-up appears saying xyz all is already on App-World, hey why don't you buy from us... Remember all are stuff is tested/ has tracking stuff stripped out and has a 200% money back guarantee!

    They click YES and they are rolled over to complete the transaction, if NO is selected the app is converted locally as described previously.
    Last edited by WeAreNotAlone; 08-16-13 at 03:54 PM.
    AWB70 likes this.
    08-16-13 03:12 PM
  25. AWB70's Avatar
    very strong argument.
    08-16-13 03:47 PM
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