[Kerms]

All I know is I'm posting on here with my playbook and reading the forum with my playbook, something I just never did on my phone because it was too hard for me to read even on the mobile site. Now I find it pleasure to beable to read and post on the full site and all the while using the bridge browser. Gotta love it.

As long as you love it. Go for it. I never surfed the web on my phone other than a quick look up for something. Screen is too small

[Kerms]

I do think that videos are useful. See this one:



Within the 24 seconds that you find significant for crackberry to load, I have already started watching a flash video. How many seconds does it take for the Ipad to do that?

iPad doesn't do Flash so trying to compare them based on that is pointless. Compare it against an Android that does flash or the HP TouchPad

[lawguyman]

iPad doesn't do Flash so trying to compare them based on that is pointless. Compare it against an Android that does flash or the HP TouchPad

No it is not pointless, IT IS THE POINT.

How can it be claimed that the iPad has a better overall browsing experience when there are entire categories of content that it will not display? A few seconds here or there don't matter nearly as much as missing out on content.

[sportline]

best web experience, like taste or color, is subjective.
see it for yourselves. if you like it give it a go. if you don't, fine.
for me, the bigger the screen, the better. doesn't really care about flash, it's basically ads. nice to have, but not a dealbreaker.

[sportline]

No it is not pointless, IT IS THE POINT.

How can it be claimed that the iPad has a better overall browsing experience when there are entire categories of content that it will not display? A few seconds here or there don't matter nearly as much as missing out on content.

Ok let's say playbook wins as the best web experience. then what? the benchmark tests are probably out there on the net, for people to see.
apple can make their own claim, rim make their own claim, thats how people sell things. advertised. it's normal.

[Kerms]

No it is not pointless, IT IS THE POINT.

How can it be claimed that the iPad has a better overall browsing experience when there are entire categories of content that it will not display? A few seconds here or there don't matter nearly as much as missing out on content.

I never said the iPad was the better browsing experience. I've said it already that browsing experience for everyone is different so it's subjective. Some people really don't give a hoot about flash based stuff yet their web experience to them is enjoyable and I'm talking about people with desktops who can have flash yet disable it.

Who say's seconds don't count to some that may mean more than maybe the missing flash content.

Flash is part of the web, not the web. I remember when the whole thing was txt based using Lynx and using gopher before flash and the pretty stuff we see today.

[M.Rizk]

does the ipad lack a calculator app?

lol .10char

[lawguyman]

Okay, now it is all subjective . . .

The fact that speed is a criteria at all is subjective. How can you objectively demonstrate that a brower's speed important? You can't.

I don't know any iOS product owner (myself included) that doesn't want Flash. How can anyone affirmatively not want it? This is crazy talk and pure self delusion. People may choose to live without it but that is not the same thing as not wanting it. You may also live without it for so long that you forget what it is or find work arounds for the things that you are missing. None of this is the same thing as not wanting it.

The internet may move on and HTML5 may really be the future at some point but that time is not now.

So, I feel pretty good about my conclusion.

[melb_me]

OK I figured out where my 4MB update came from and it makes a big difference to the Browser. I got my playbook last week so the first software update is 1.07.2670. After that update (the first one) it does not have acrobat reader. I downloaded Acrobat Reader from App World. It is a 3MB download. So now I have Acrobat Reader. Now I go to check for Software updates again and there is a 4MB update available. I install the update which requires a restart. Now the Browser is working way better. The ad links on web pages used to be hypersensitive to being touched and pages used to hang at about 80% loaded and take an extra 3 to 4 seconds to finish loading but they are much much faster now.
I am guessing there were some flash updates in the 4MB download that were not triggered until I installed Acrobat Reader.
F.Y.I. this is our families second Playbook, we also have a 64gig Ipad2 we don't use.....bahaha.

[chiefbroski]

All I know is I'm posting on here with my playbook and reading the forum with my playbook, something I just never did on my phone because it was too hard for me to read even on the mobile site. Now I find it pleasure to beable to read and post on the full site and all the while using the bridge browser. Gotta love it.

I do the same!

[chiefbroski]

OK I figured out where my 4MB update came from and it makes a big difference to the Browser. I got my playbook last week so the first software update is 1.07.2670. After that update (the first one) it does not have acrobat reader. I downloaded Acrobat Reader from App World. It is a 3MB download. So now I have Acrobat Reader. Now I go to check for Software updates again and there is a 4MB update available. I install the update which requires a restart. Now the Browser is working way better. The ad links on web pages used to be hypersensitive to being touched and pages used to hang at about 80% loaded and take an extra 3 to 4 seconds to finish loading but they are much much faster now.
I am guessing there were some flash updates in the 4MB download that were not triggered until I installed Acrobat Reader.
F.Y.I. this is our families second Playbook, we also have a 64gig Ipad2 we don't use.....bahaha.

Yeah, I had the same 4mb update but I noticed facebook wasn't on the device. After installing it, the facebook app appeared. I thought it was for facebook, but it could be for more.

[esqlaw]

I never said the iPad was the better browsing experience. I've said it already that browsing experience for everyone is different so it's subjective. Some people really don't give a hoot about flash based stuff yet their web experience to them is enjoyable and I'm talking about people with desktops who can have flash yet disable it.

Who say's seconds don't count to some that may mean more than maybe the missing flash content.

Flash is part of the web, not the web. I remember when the whole thing was txt based using Lynx and using gopher before flash and the pretty stuff we see today.

I think lawguy is trying to say that if you look at the situation as objectively as possible, considering all the factors including features, that the PB is a more full web experience as we understand it traditionally. Considering that the ipad2 is only on average 1 second faster but lacks a major feature - flash - that even other flash-capable tablets fail to adequately feature, I think its the only reasonable conclusion based on that alone. There are other factors or facts that may skew or ultimately change this opinion of mine, but I haven't seen it (the convincing argument) outside of a tablet.

Ultimately it will come down to one's personal experience. That is not to say that people cannot articulate opinions and support their opinions with statements that have some factual basis. After all, that essentially is what an argument is. There always is some way to intelligently break down and analyze someone's opinion, except for perhaps purely aesthetic judgments. And of course I'm not saying everyone's opinion should be attacked. I'd expect it, however, if you're posting negative comments on a playbook forum. Not because of fanboyism or what-not, because the people that disagree with you are inclined to respond.

[Economist101]

No it is not pointless, IT IS THE POINT.

How can it be claimed that the iPad has a better overall browsing experience when there are entire categories of content that it will not display? A few seconds here or there don't matter nearly as much as missing out on content.

I could just as easily argue that a few Flash sites here and there doesn't matter nearly as much as missing out on Netflix, Hulu and Kindle content. Yes, I know those apps are coming, but it's been 99 days, and there's no sign of any of them.

I don't know any iOS product owner (myself included) that doesn't want Flash. How can anyone affirmatively not want it? This is crazy talk and pure self delusion. People may choose to live without it but that is not the same thing as not wanting it. You may also live without it for so long that you forget what it is or find work arounds for the things that you are missing. None of this is the same thing as not wanting it.

The internet may move on and HTML5 may really be the future at some point but that time is not now.

So, I feel pretty good about my conclusion.

Ultimately what you or I think people want is a poor indicator of their actual wants. Device sales are a much stronger indicator, and the numbers suggest people like the iPad enough to look past the absence of Flash, like they have for every one of the 222+ million iOS devices sold (including 30 million+ iPads) and 150+ million BlackBerry devices sold. At the same time, the numbers suggest that even with Flash, people don't like the Android, webOS and RIM tablets enough to buy them in significant numbers. So while Flash is certainly nice to have for many people, it's not delivering sales, making any focus on it a losing strategy.

[lawguyman]

I could just as easily argue that a few Flash sites here and there doesn't matter nearly as much as missing out on Netflix, Hulu and Kindle content. Yes, I know those apps are coming, but it's been 99 days, and there's no sign of any of them.



Ultimately what you or I think people want is a poor indicator of their actual wants. Device sales are a much stronger indicator, and the numbers suggest people like the iPad enough to look past the absence of Flash, like they have for every one of the 222+ million iOS devices sold (including 30 million+ iPads) and 150+ million BlackBerry devices sold. At the same time, the numbers suggest that even with Flash, people don't like the Android, webOS and RIM tablets enough to buy them in significant numbers. So while Flash is certainly nice to have for many people, it's not delivering sales, making any focus on it a losing strategy.

What you are essentially saying is that iOS has been more successful in the marketplace than RIM or others and that this is evidence of the fact that people are willing to look past the absence of Flash. No argument here. I was adressing the comment that people don't want Flash. This is simply not true. Overlooking and not wanting are different things.

Also, there are clearly functions that Playbook does not support and Apps that it needs to develop. Hulu is a political question because it did work at one time. I have no idea what is going on with Netflix or Kindle (although I do have the Android Kindle App working fine on my Playbook). RIM still obviously still has a lot of work to do in many areas.

[esqlaw]

I could just as easily argue that a few Flash sites here and there doesn't matter nearly as much as missing out on Netflix, Hulu and Kindle content. Yes, I know those apps are coming, but it's been 99 days, and there's no sign of any of them.

Ultimately what you or I think people want is a poor indicator of their actual wants. Device sales are a much stronger indicator, and the numbers suggest people like the iPad enough to look past the absence of Flash, like they have for every one of the 222+ million iOS devices sold (including 30 million+ iPads) and 150+ million BlackBerry devices sold. At the same time, the numbers suggest that even with Flash, people don't like the Android, webOS and RIM tablets enough to buy them in significant numbers. So while Flash is certainly nice to have for many people, it's not delivering sales, making any focus on it a losing strategy.

I think the sales are indicative of many things, both for and against the desirability of flash. Statistics or use of statistics are often anecdotal and are unreliable itself. And quite honestly, sales aren't that relevant to whether the browsing experience is superb or not.

I'm not saying flash is required for a great browsing experience. However, the lack of flash is not an improvement by any means. The playbook has flash and the ipad doesn't. If you hypothetically assume that performance is equal, the only reasonable conclusion you can have is that the playbook beats the ipad (albeit in a slight manner depending on your value or opinion of flash).

Now, setting aside the assumption that performance is equal, take what we will assume is true based on dfg's numbers, that the ipad is 1 second faster than the playbook. 1 second doesn't offset the benefit derived from having flash. I'd say different if it were a larger more significant figure like 10. Even if it were 10 seconds, you'd still have to consider other non-empirical aspects such as the time it takes for the page to become navigable or readable.

I think Lawguys video example is a good instance of being able to browse prior to the page fully loading. And at the same time he shows that you don't get checker-boarding unless you're quickly scrolling through. If the playbook was designed to splash content faster but ultimately load up longer, then that is a design choice that would pay off but for all the people who rely completely on benchmarks.

[s219]

I do think that videos are useful. See this one:



Within the 24 seconds that you find significant for crackberry to load, I have already started watching a flash video. How many seconds does it take for the Ipad to do that?

OK, good, I think we're having an open dialog now. Here's the same exercise on the iPad 2:

[s219]

Now, setting aside the assumption that performance is equal, take what we will assume is true based on dfg's numbers, that the ipad is 1 second faster than the playbook. 1 second doesn't offset the benefit derived from having flash. I'd say different if it were a larger more significant figure like 10. Even if it were 10 seconds, you'd still have to consider other non-empirical aspects such as the time it takes for the page to become navigable or readable.

If you're getting the 1 second from the sunspider benchmark, realize that the types of operations inside the benchmark may happen tens, hundreds, or thousands of times while loading a single web page. So any notable increment in the raw benchmarks manifests itself manyfold when loading an actual web page in real world use.

The benchmarks are distilled down to give a isolated quantitative snapshot. Real world use is an multiplier extrapolation of that. I can easily see how 2 seconds on the benchmark could correlate with the 10+ seconds I see in real world use.

[lawguyman]

OK, good, I think we're having an open dialog now. Here's the same exercise on the iPad 2:

The iPad is certainly faster and was fortunate enough to have been served up an HTML5 video and not a Flash video.