02-10-12 06:24 PM
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  1. Smiley88's Avatar
    when i went looking for a 64gb playbook last weekend, i couldnt find any in airdrie or calgary. lots of 16's and about half the stores i went to were sold out of 32's as well.
    northland FS have 16 and 32 but didn't see any 64.
    02-08-12 10:13 PM
  2. BennyX's Avatar
    the tablet display area at the Eatons Centre Best Buy in Toronto was absolutely dismal when I went in to pick up my Playbook a week ago. I would expect the display area at the Future Shop that was a block away from there to be equally as barren/in disarray, being that they're owned by the same company. (yet there are sometimes price differences of $10 for the same item between the 2 stores)

    you can't really tell one tablet from the other.. they're all slabs of black gloss, really.. and that's when you realize most of the various brands of tablets aren't going to be around after 'the shakeout', because there really isn't much to differentiate them and it will all come down to which one has the best features for the cheapest price.

    the choices are simple: 10" android or ipad. or 7" android or playbook.

    I'm already regretting the purchase of my Playbook, now that i've seen the apps and games available for Android devices. It's quite evident RIM rushed out the Playbook a year earlier than it should have... they could at least make it easier for us to run Android apps.. I mean, the functionality is there, and it's ridiculous that something like the Kindle Fire *with the same hardware as the Playbook* already craps all over it, despite being out for much shorter amount of time.

    Knowing what I know now, I can honestly say the Playbook, even with $199 for the base model, is selling for more than its worth.

    *I know I sound all negative and depressing in this post.. but it's hard to refrain from expressing my frustration and disappointment. The Playbook has a lot of potential and its OS is solid, but it's being seriously brought down by ineptness on RIM's part.
    Last edited by BennyX; 02-08-12 at 11:23 PM.
    02-08-12 11:17 PM
  3. BrizzadMan's Avatar
    I'm already regretting the purchase of my Playbook, now that i've seen the apps and games available for Android devices. It's quite evident RIM rushed out the Playbook a year earlier than it should have... they could at least make it easier for us to run Android apps.. I mean, the functionality is there, and it's ridiculous that something like the Kindle Fire *with the same hardware as the Playbook* already craps all over it, despite being out for much shorter amount of time.

    Knowing what I know now, I can honestly say the Playbook, even with $199 for the base model, is selling for more than its worth.

    *I know I sound all negative and depressing in this post.. but it's hard to refrain from expressing my frustration and disappointment. The Playbook has a lot of potential and its OS is solid, but it's being seriously brought down by ineptness on RIM's part.
    Kindle Fire does not have the same hardware. How have they made it hard for you to run Android apps exactly? The dev beta is not a reflection of what the consumer experience will be when 2.0 is released, if this is what you are referring to.

    Wait 2 weeks to see what Android apps/games come with the 2.0 release, and if all the apps/games that you've been salivating over aren't there, and there is nothing else to keep your PlayBook for... go buy a Fire. This is not an Android device.
    02-08-12 11:36 PM
  4. CoreyGmaN's Avatar
    the tablet display area at the Eatons Centre Best Buy in Toronto was absolutely dismal when I went in to pick up my Playbook a week ago. I would expect the display area at the Future Shop that was a block away from there to be equally as barren/in disarray, being that they're owned by the same company. (yet there are sometimes price differences of $10 for the same item between the 2 stores)

    you can't really tell one tablet from the other.. they're all slabs of black gloss, really.. and that's when you realize most of the various brands of tablets aren't going to be around after 'the shakeout', because there really isn't much to differentiate them and it will all come down to which one has the best features for the cheapest price.

    the choices are simple: 10" android or ipad. or 7" android or playbook.

    I'm already regretting the purchase of my Playbook, now that i've seen the apps and games available for Android devices. It's quite evident RIM rushed out the Playbook a year earlier than it should have... they could at least make it easier for us to run Android apps.. I mean, the functionality is there, and it's ridiculous that something like the Kindle Fire *with the same hardware as the Playbook* already craps all over it, despite being out for much shorter amount of time.

    Knowing what I know now, I can honestly say the Playbook, even with $199 for the base model, is selling for more than its worth.

    *I know I sound all negative and depressing in this post.. but it's hard to refrain from expressing my frustration and disappointment. The Playbook has a lot of potential and its OS is solid, but it's being seriously brought down by ineptness on RIM's part.
    Hey, all you have to do is learn how to load some android apps on it, takes a few minutes to download the loader, then however long you want to find the kind of games you want.
    02-08-12 11:37 PM
  5. FSeverino's Avatar
    I'm already regretting the purchase of my Playbook, now that i've seen the apps and games available for Android devices. It's quite evident RIM rushed out the Playbook a year earlier than it should have... they could at least make it easier for us to run Android apps.. I mean, the functionality is there, and it's ridiculous that something like the Kindle Fire *with the same hardware as the Playbook* already craps all over it, despite being out for much shorter amount of time.

    Knowing what I know now, I can honestly say the Playbook, even with $199 for the base model, is selling for more than its worth.

    *I know I sound all negative and depressing in this post.. but it's hard to refrain from expressing my frustration and disappointment. The Playbook has a lot of potential and its OS is solid, but it's being seriously brought down by ineptness on RIM's part.

    I had android apps running on my playbook in under an hour.
    also, if you dont want your playbook anymore then im sure i can buy it off of you
    02-09-12 12:01 AM
  6. rkennedy01's Avatar
    I'm waiting for the Apple fanboys to take this pic and post it as evidence that retailers are prepping their excess PB inventory for return to RIM.

    "Look! They're all stacked-up and ready for the landfill! RIM = FAIL. LOL!"

    Remember, you heard it here first!

    RCK
    02-09-12 02:11 AM
  7. thymaster's Avatar
    Oooo that's gotta hurt. Well if it makes you feel any better i spend $140 every 10 days on gas for my truck. Fell better now ?
    You need to get a car. I spend $40 every 10 days. LOL At your rate, I can buy a new PB every month.
    02-09-12 02:26 AM
  8. conix67's Avatar
    They had that promotion for a while where all 3 models were selling at the same price... It only makes sense that everyone snapped up the higher end models and we would be left with the 16GBs.
    I'm still clueless why they did this. Never in the history of electronic sales something like this happened. Why would anyone choose 16GB model over 64GB if they are the same price?
    02-09-12 07:49 AM
  9. jetstreamblue's Avatar
    I'm still clueless why they did this. Never in the history of electronic sales something like this happened. Why would anyone choose 16GB model over 64GB if they are the same price?
    It's actually quite smart. When the 16gb went down to $199, everyone got those, and very few people bought the 32's or 64's. The thing is, the 16gb @ $199 is almost certainly at a loss, whereas the 32's and 64's would actually have some margin (this is based on rough data available on costs).
    Now, by setting all three at $299, they suddenly made the 64gb unit a bargain, and effectively made a lot more people spend more money than they would have if the $199 16gb were still available at the time (ie. they raised the average spend that people made on PlayBook purchases, at least temporarily).
    BrizzadMan likes this.
    02-09-12 08:44 AM
  10. conix67's Avatar
    It's actually quite smart. When the 16gb went down to $199, everyone got those, and very few people bought the 32's or 64's. The thing is, the 16gb @ $199 is almost certainly at a loss, whereas the 32's and 64's would actually have some margin (this is based on rough data available on costs).
    Now, by setting all three at $299, they suddenly made the 64gb unit a bargain, and effectively made a lot more people spend more money than they would have if the $199 16gb were still available at the time (ie. they raised the average spend that people made on PlayBook purchases, at least temporarily).
    I'm not sure if there will be any margin at all for 64GB even at $299. Parts cost for 64GB of flash memory is substantially higher than 16GB, so if PB16GB costs ~$250 to build, 64GB would be certainly cost over $299 to build. Add to that the shipping and retail margin (futureshop will not sell at loss, their cost to the device need to be less than selling price) I don't see RIM making money selling 64GB at $299.

    Obviously this pricing will push out 32GB and 64GB models, if the sole purpose of this sale was to reduce stock of higher end models.
    02-09-12 09:33 AM
  11. BennyX's Avatar
    Kindle Fire does not have the same hardware. How have they made it hard for you to run Android apps exactly? The dev beta is not a reflection of what the consumer experience will be when 2.0 is released, if this is what you are referring to.

    Wait 2 weeks to see what Android apps/games come with the 2.0 release, and if all the apps/games that you've been salivating over aren't there, and there is nothing else to keep your PlayBook for... go buy a Fire. This is not an Android device.

    My bad... the Kindle Fire has 512MB memory less than PB, and only 8GB internal storage compared to PB's 16GB (base model). Other than that, everything is the same, including the connectivity (Micro USB, no SD Card slot). Heck, the Fire is even built by the same company that built the Playbook!

    I'd be happy to attempt converting APK's to BAR's, but the problem is that some of those APK's come with data files that can't just be combined into a BAR. There's no way to migrate those Android data files over to the Playbook along with the APK. This is why you don't see games like Shadowgun or Grand Theft Auto 3 on the Playbook. It's not that they couldn't run on the PB.. they run fine on the Kindle Fire (which has half the memory of the PB) it's just because RIM put silly restrictions on the device.
    02-09-12 02:51 PM
  12. BennyX's Avatar
    I had android apps running on my playbook in under an hour.
    also, if you dont want your playbook anymore then im sure i can buy it off of you
    I am aware there are many Android apps that can be converted over to the Playbook flawlessly. But there are many that can't be so easily converted. For example, any apps or games using additional data files will not be able to run on the Playbook because those data files can't be packed into one BAR file. With the higher-end games for Android, you'll find that most use additional data files, and which ones are used depend on what the model of your device is. Those data files can't just be left out.
    02-09-12 03:00 PM
  13. peter9477's Avatar
    Other than that, everything is the same, including the connectivity (Micro USB, no SD Card slot).
    Except for the GPS. And, it seems, Bluetooth?

    Probably no HDMI output either.

    Likely missing a magnetometer. (Probably has an accelerometer though.)

    Battery looks like 17% less capacity.

    No stereo speakers I guess.

    I suspect there are other things missing, but don't see any point continue to look...
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    02-09-12 03:03 PM
  14. peter9477's Avatar
    I am aware there are many Android apps that can be converted over to the Playbook flawlessly. But there are many that can't be so easily converted. For example, any apps or games using additional data files will not be able to run on the Playbook because those data files can't be packed into one BAR file. With the higher-end games for Android, you'll find that most use additional data files, and which ones are used depend on what the model of your device is. Those data files can't just be left out.
    I think you may be talking about something else here, since what you've stated is patently false.

    A BAR file is merely a .zip file with a different file extension and some very limited rules on the content. Within the app folder itself, there are no restrictions on the content, which can include any "data files" that an app may require. Upon installation the .bar file is unzipped and all files are left directly in the filesystem.

    I assume you meant something about some very special sort of data that is pre-installed only on Android tablets? Because there's nothing you couldn't just include in the app if you needed it, unless you didn't have the rights to distribute it anywhere else.
    02-09-12 03:06 PM
  15. BennyX's Avatar
    I'm not sure if there will be any margin at all for 64GB even at $299. Parts cost for 64GB of flash memory is substantially higher than 16GB, so if PB16GB costs ~$250 to build, 64GB would be certainly cost over $299 to build. Add to that the shipping and retail margin (futureshop will not sell at loss, their cost to the device need to be less than selling price) I don't see RIM making money selling 64GB at $299.

    Obviously this pricing will push out 32GB and 64GB models, if the sole purpose of this sale was to reduce stock of higher end models.
    The way I see it is that they're trying to get rid of excess stock because #1: they won't sell without the fire sale pricing, and #2. RIM already has a new Playbook planned for release later this year (if you believe their roadmap) They don't want to be stuck holding a bunch of older models, thus the blowout sale.

    But yeah, I don't think RIM is making any profit on their Playbooks. Even with the Kindle Fire at $199 it's estimated they are still only breaking even or making a slight loss, and it has less RAM and storage than the base model Playbook.
    Last edited by BennyX; 02-09-12 at 03:33 PM.
    02-09-12 03:07 PM
  16. BennyX's Avatar
    Except for the GPS. And, it seems, Bluetooth?

    Probably no HDMI output either.

    Likely missing a magnetometer. (Probably has an accelerometer though.)

    Battery looks like 17% less capacity.

    No stereo speakers I guess.

    I suspect there are other things missing, but don't see any point continue to look...


    Even if the Fire lacks all these things, its CPU and Video processors are the same, and that's where all the horsepower is. When talking about performance, all that extra stuff you mentioned is irrelevant... they're just extras. Being that the PB and Fire both have the same 'brains' behind their operation (and here is my point) it sucks that the Fire can run programs that can actually push its hardware and the Playbook can't, not for any technological reason, but due to arbitrary limitations that RIM themselves have put on the Playbook. This is where RIM is shooting themselves in the foot.
    02-09-12 03:14 PM
  17. BennyX's Avatar
    I think you may be talking about something else here, since what you've stated is patently false.

    A BAR file is merely a .zip file with a different file extension and some very limited rules on the content. Within the app folder itself, there are no restrictions on the content, which can include any "data files" that an app may require. Upon installation the .bar file is unzipped and all files are left directly in the filesystem.

    I assume you meant something about some very special sort of data that is pre-installed only on Android tablets? Because there's nothing you couldn't just include in the app if you needed it, unless you didn't have the rights to distribute it anywhere else.

    The reason why it doesn't work is right there in my quote above: "...some very limited rules on the content". Those programs utilizing data files stored elsewhere, but the program still needs in order to run properly on the device... those are the programs that will not port over to the Playbook, because the Playbook OS won't allow it. These data files are known as 'SD Data' files.
    02-09-12 03:22 PM
  18. peter9477's Avatar
    Well, from the looks of things, what you're calling "SD Data" files are merely files that some apps download and put on an SD card after installation. Presumably the reason is to shrink the initial download, or perhaps because an app can't be split across multiple filesystems at install time. Or possibly because they want the data to be writable, so they install it separately to a location that's read/write instead of read-only.

    Any vendor who wants to migrate their Android app can simply adjust the path to point to where they have the data in the .bar file, or they could simply set up the same post-installation download technique. There's no magic here, should be no problem for porting apps.

    Also, the Android runtime on the PlayBook apparently supports an "SDcard path" anyway.

    As for the performance thing, I was merely responding to your claim that "Other than that, everything is the same, including the connectivity (Micro USB, no SD Card slot)." Mentioning connectivity and "everything else" made me think you weren't restricting your comments to just performance but if you are, I agree they're the same performance except for RAM, which does often have a significant effect on performance.
    02-09-12 03:44 PM
  19. BrizzadMan's Avatar
    My bad... the Kindle Fire has 512MB memory less than PB, and only 8GB internal storage compared to PB's 16GB (base model). Other than that, everything is the same, including the connectivity (Micro USB, no SD Card slot). Heck, the Fire is even built by the same company that built the Playbook!
    You're really glossing over this. Beside memory & storage being different.... Fire also lacks: GPS, HDMI, BLUETOOTH, BACK CAMERA, FRONT CAMERA, GYROSCOPE, MAGNETOMETER.

    Does PlayBook have those? Yes.

    @ $199 for the base 16GB PB, the PB is a far more CAPABLE device due to the inclusion of these components, even when pitted against Android Application availibility on the Fire. Fire can't take photos, can't capture video, can never use GPS apps, can never pair with a bluetooth device for audio playback or file transfer, can never hookup to a TV for a bigger display, can never use apps that rely on a magnetometer or gyroscope (What's Up? Astronomy, Wikitude world browser, etc).

    The inclusion of all these components in one device is what we call technological convergence. You cannot downplay the significance of this - this is what made the iPhone what it is today for instance.
    Jfryton likes this.
    02-09-12 03:48 PM
  20. BennyX's Avatar
    Well, from the looks of things, what you're calling "SD Data" files are merely files that some apps download and put on an SD card after installation. Presumably the reason is to shrink the initial download, or perhaps because an app can't be split across multiple filesystems at install time. Or possibly because they want the data to be writable, so they install it separately to a location that's read/write instead of read-only.

    Any vendor who wants to migrate their Android app can simply adjust the path to point to where they have the data in the .bar file, or they could simply set up the same post-installation download technique. There's no magic here, should be no problem for porting apps.

    Also, the Android runtime on the PlayBook apparently supports an "SDcard path" anyway.

    As for the performance thing, I was merely responding to your claim that "Other than that, everything is the same, including the connectivity (Micro USB, no SD Card slot)." Mentioning connectivity and "everything else" made me think you weren't restricting your comments to just performance but if you are, I agree they're the same performance except for RAM, which does often have a significant effect on performance.

    I'm sure you're right about vendors being able to adjust the path to certain files, but that's the thing: only the developer can do that, and that's where people are running into problems when they want to take exiting Android apps and run them on the Playbook. Unless the vendor alters the code to adjust the file paths, it's impossible to run those apps/games that use SD Data files on the Playbook because simply packing those data files in with the BAR does not work. (people have tried)

    And you're right about lack of RAM having a large effect on performance. I guess I'm just seeing something like the Kindle Fire running some pretty decent games admirably well, and the Playbook (with the same 'brains' but with more RAM) could easily run the same games, yet can't. (even though it can run Android programs).
    Last edited by BennyX; 02-09-12 at 04:10 PM.
    02-09-12 03:58 PM
  21. BrizzadMan's Avatar
    I'd be happy to attempt converting APK's to BAR's, but the problem is that some of those APK's come with data files that can't just be combined into a BAR. There's no way to migrate those Android data files over to the Playbook along with the APK. This is why you don't see games like Shadowgun or Grand Theft Auto 3 on the Playbook. It's not that they couldn't run on the PB.. they run fine on the Kindle Fire (which has half the memory of the PB) it's just because RIM put silly restrictions on the device.
    This is not the 2.0 consumer experience you are describing.

    PlayBook owners can rest assured that when they download an "Android" App from PB AppWorld (which won't be labelled as such in the PB AppWorld, as set by RIM's submission rules) that the app has been repackaged by the application developer themselves, tested & validated that it functions as intended for the consumer, on the PlayBook.

    No muss, no fuss.
    Last edited by BrizzadMan; 02-09-12 at 04:18 PM.
    app_Developer likes this.
    02-09-12 03:59 PM
  22. BennyX's Avatar
    This is not the 2.0 consumer experience you are describing.

    PlayBook owners can rest assured that when they download an "Android" App from PB AppWorld (which won't be labelled as such in the PB AppWorld, as set by RIM's submission rules) that the app has been repackaged by the application developer themselves, tested & validated that it functions as intended for the consumer, on the PlayBook.

    No muss, no fuss.

    I understand this. But I think we can agree there are a whole lot of developers who simply aren't willing to repackage their apps and submit them to Appworld. This is why so many of us are trying to run Android apps on our own instead of waiting for them to be 'ported' to Playbook.

    In theory, APK -> BAR is easy. But in practice, there's many apps and games that require more than just a straight conversion, otherwise they won't run. That requires work on the developer's part, and it's evident many developers are simply choosing not to bother.
    02-09-12 04:09 PM
  23. BrizzadMan's Avatar
    Yep - and fair enough. If I found out my Android app will require extensive customization beyond repackaging, simply for the PlayBook... it may not be worth putting in the cycles, for the profits returned from the small PlayBook community at present time.
    02-09-12 04:13 PM
  24. peter9477's Avatar
    I'm sure you're right about vendors being able to adjust the path to certain files, but that's the thing: only the developer can do that, and that's where people are running into problems when they want to take exiting Android apps and run them on the Playbook.
    Okay, I missed that we were talking about people trying to convert and side-load apps that others have published. Agreed that under those conditions, where you can't easily change the code, things are next to impossible to fix in some cases.
    02-09-12 04:16 PM
  25. BennyX's Avatar
    You're really glossing over this. Beside memory & storage being different.... Fire also lacks: GPS, HDMI, BLUETOOTH, BACK CAMERA, FRONT CAMERA, GYROSCOPE, MAGNETOMETER.

    Does PlayBook have those? Yes.

    @ $199 for the base 16GB PB, the PB is a far more CAPABLE device due to the inclusion of these components, even when pitted against Android Application availibility on the Fire. Fire can't take photos, can't capture video, can never use GPS apps, can never pair with a bluetooth device for audio playback or file transfer, can never hookup to a TV for a bigger display, can never use apps that rely on a magnetometer or gyroscope (What's Up? Astronomy, Wikitude world browser, etc).

    The inclusion of all these components in one device is what we call technological convergence. You cannot downplay the significance of this - this is what made the iPhone what it is today for instance.

    I don't refute the significance of 'technological convergence'... but I think you and I are not even on the same subject. I was merely trying to point out that the Kindle Fire and Playbook (both being Android-capable devices, supposedly) should be able to run the same games (being that the hardware required to run them - the CPU and Video processors - are the same between them, with the PB of course having twice the RAM). But because of limitations/restrictions RIM has implemented in QNX, the only way to run certain Android games/apps successfully on the PB is if the developer makes the necessary changes to the code itself. The developer doesn't have to do this to get their program running on the Kindle Fire, but they do have to do this to get it to run on the Playbook. RIM is putting obstacles in the way, and hoops for developers to jump through (and the developers at this point have little incentive to do so).
    02-09-12 04:21 PM
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