08-14-12 02:37 AM
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  1. dentynefire's Avatar
    Right, I stand corrected on the extra extra layer then. That doesn't change anything else about my microkernel argument though.


    To reverse a question asked earlier, if the microkernel is SO good, why is RIM the only company attempting to use it in mass produced consumer goods?
    Mike007 you really have to stop treating all micro kernel architecture the same.

    You actually didn't have an argument because you keep jumping from one system to another. Come when you have one architecture malfeasance regarding QNX. Truth is they have many accolades for their OS because they have solved to the point of irrelevance the issues you bring up. This has been known for years. So I'd suggest you start reading now and stop boring us with outdated and incorrectly applied information.
    08-11-12 10:09 AM
  2. mikeo007's Avatar
    Mike007 you really have to stop treating all micro kernel architecture the same.

    You actually didn't have an argument because you keep jumping from one system to another. Come when you have one architecture malfeasance regarding QNX. Truth is they have many accolades for their OS because they have solved to the point of irrelevance the issues you bring up. This has been known for years. So I'd suggest you start reading now and stop boring us with outdated and incorrectly applied information.
    You didn't answer my question: why has no other mass produced consumer product adopter QNX or a similar microkernel? Because they haven't solved these problems to the extent that you keep claiming.

    I did several case studies years ago, and at that time, these problems were all still relevant and prevalent, even in QNX.

    You seem to have the wrong idea, that I'm trying to play down QNX. I'm not. I'm sure that they've tweaked the out of the thing and that BB10 may very well be an outstanding OS. But you are hailing it as the single best OS/Kernel on the planet, and that is simply not true. You are speaking as though there is not a single fault with the microkernel design, yet in reality it has its pros and cons, just like any monolithic kernel design or hybrid.

    This all started when I said that QNX (and microkernels in general) were designed for stability first and foremost. I also stated that they were slower in any task that requires heavy context switching (many system calls). Both of these facts are still true, and I'm failing to see the point of this continued argument.
    08-11-12 10:44 AM
  3. aha's Avatar
    I also stated that they were slower in any task that requires heavy context switching (many system calls).
    Very interesting arguments... Here are some dev doc from QNX that touched this issue:

    The QNX Neutrino Microkernel

    QUOTE:

    The minimal complexity of the microkernel helps place an upper bound on the longest nonpreemptible code path through the kernel, while the small code size makes addressing complex multiprocessor issues a tractable problem. Services were chosen for inclusion in the microkernel on the basis of having a short execution path. Operations requiring significant work (e.g. process loading) were assigned to external processes/threads, where the effort to enter the context of that thread would be insignificant compared to the work done within the thread to service the request.

    Rigorous application of this rule to dividing the functionality between the kernel and external processes destroys the myth that a microkernel OS must incur higher runtime overhead than a monolithic kernel OS. Given the work done between context switches (implicit in a message pass), and the very quick context-switch times that result from the simplified kernel, the time spent performing context switches becomes "lost in the noise" of the work done to service the requests communicated by the message passing between the processes that make up the OS.
    Last edited by aha; 08-11-12 at 11:40 AM.
    08-11-12 11:32 AM
  4. aha's Avatar
    Of course, it would be better if this claim has been confirmed by a third party, but it does sound that they have done a lot to remove the disadvantage of a general microkernel OS, doesn't it?
    08-11-12 11:37 AM
  5. mikeo007's Avatar
    Of course, it would be better if this claim has been confirmed by a third party, but it does sound that they have done a lot to remove the disadvantage of a general microkernel OS, doesn't it?
    They've minimized some of the disadvantages, which is why QNX is so popular as an embedded system. Honestly though, look around for sources about how QNX performs compared to OS operating systems. Almost every benchmark I've seen was performed in a vacuum, and is posted on the QNX website. It's advertising material. Anyone who's used QNX in an embedded platform knows how stable it is, and knows that it can complete its tasks efficiently. But how does this translate into a mass produced consumer OS? PB OS is too young to pass judgement, so we will need to wait for BB10 and beyond.

    This argument is getting tiresome. What it really comes down to is that there is not enough 3rd party evidence to prove either side of the argument, so waiting is the best option right now. We will see what happens in the next 6-12 months.
    08-11-12 12:19 PM
  6. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    Where does the article in the OP make ANY reference to this microkernal bs? Please take this stupid p1$$ing contest to its own thread...
    dentynefire and mikeo007 like this.
    08-11-12 12:40 PM
  7. morlock_man's Avatar
    The question comes up when you consider the performance increase vs. spec increase.

    Show me another OS where a 50 percent jump in processor speed results in a 35 percent increase in performance. While code optimizations can account for a small percent of that increase, its still a big jump. (Unless RIM hired the Buddha of programming.)

    Its already been stated that research has shown that Apple would benefit from switching from Mach to L4. The current PB OS and BB10 are the only consumer operating systems currently benefiting from this level of *modern* computer science. Android, MS and Apple are all built around antiquated paradigms.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    08-11-12 01:11 PM
  8. mikeo007's Avatar
    The question comes up when you consider the performance increase vs. spec increase.

    Show me another OS where a 50 percent jump in processor speed results in a 35 percent increase in performance. While code optimizations can account for a small percent of that increase, its still a big jump. (Unless RIM hired the Buddha of programming.)

    Its already been stated that research has shown that Apple would benefit from switching from Mach to L4. The current PB OS and BB10 are the only consumer operating systems currently benefiting from this level of *modern* computer science. Android, MS and Apple are all built around antiquated paradigms.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    Forgetting the whole architecture discussion, I just want to point out that the performance increase has only been measured in a synthetic, browser based benchmark. We don't know what the performance increase is like system wide. Geekbench for example, isn't available on the Playbook, so we can't measure performance that way either.

    Does anyone know of some other benchmarks that are available cross platform, that aren't browser based? I'd like to test these out. If someone can point one out, I'll run it on my iPad, Playbook and i9000. Then we can get someone with a 4g PB to test it out as well.

    Edit: Also wanted to comment on the 50% processor, 35% benchmark performance increase.
    I have a computer in front of me (2010 macbook) that has a 20% variance just between Chrome and Safari in sunspider. Just trying to show that you can get a hefty performance increase by adding 0% extra clock speed and simply optimizing your javascript engine.
    Last edited by mikeo007; 08-11-12 at 05:42 PM.
    08-11-12 01:24 PM
  9. morlock_man's Avatar
    i'd like to see those results as well. The javascript results are encouraging, but a more robust benchmark will give a more complete picture.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    08-11-12 02:01 PM
  10. aha's Avatar
    Where does the article in the OP make ANY reference to this microkernal bs? Please take this stupid p1$$ing contest to its own thread...
    I like it.... Both sides seemed to come from CS background (used to be where most Geeks came from) and were having a civilized and interesting argument, no p1$$ing contest here imo
    08-11-12 02:18 PM
  11. howarmat's Avatar
    actually i think they are running a higher OS on the LTE PB too with more browser enhancements which probably accounts for more of the 35% increase than the 50% processor increase.
    08-11-12 08:55 PM
  12. beavertail2's Avatar
    Poor netiquette to not post a link to the actual article:

    BlackBerry PlayBook 4G LTE hands-on -- Engadget

    built-in turn-by-turn navigation.
    There is a free and better than Google navigation app for the Playbook called Osmand. It has the option to use online map (Google maps) or offline map (Open Source Map). It routes and has vice navigation...all for FREE.

    I don't think Engadget is up to date on this point.
    08-13-12 03:42 AM
  13. beavertail2's Avatar
    this pb lte mist really be fast. my browser score in sunspider is 2400 ms. new pb has 1400. My pb is almost twice as slow !

    Sent from my BlackBerry Playbook using Tapatalk 2
    I am really happy about my PB64 running .668. It is fast and zippy. GPS and Wi-Fi have improved...until I did a Sunsipder test. Mine gives a rating of 4346. Wow, the LTE PB scores 1400, this is 3 times as fast!

    I want to buy a second PB. I was going to pick up a wi-fi PB32 on sale. Hmmm...if I can buy a LTE in retail, and use it in wi-fi mode, would be nice. However, LTE PB doesn't sell outside of carriers. May be in a few months, LTE PB will go to FutureShop and BestBuy. I will wait.
    08-13-12 04:07 AM
  14. beavertail2's Avatar
    Well again, it's advice people give on here all the time. The Playbook does not run a lot of apps. That situation won't be changing anytime soon. So if apps are a requirement, you probably should look at other devices.
    App is an overused marketing term. Lots of apps...it sounds nice but how many are really useful, how many are infected and how many are just waste of memory?

    I got all the apps I want for the Playbook.
    Navigation = Osmand
    Browser = Maxthon
    Audio book = Jagamaga
    TV = Tablet TV free
    Video conferencing = Adobe Connect
    plus all the regular music store, video store, Pressreader, Microsoft productivity and social networking stuffs.

    I am happy with my PB. Love the HDMI output.

    May be let's try it this way. Tell me what apps you are looking that is not available, I will try to find it for you. I must admit it took me a long time of searching for Osmand, for example.

    Some thread here claims you can get Airtime on the Facebook on the PB. I don't use it myself.

    So come, be specific. Don't just say there is lots of apps or not lots of apps. The question should be what apps do I need and does the PB has them?
    08-13-12 04:26 AM
  15. torndownunit's Avatar
    App is an overused marketing term. Lots of apps...it sounds nice but how many are really useful, how many are infected and how many are just waste of memory?

    I got all the apps I want for the Playbook.
    Navigation = Osmand
    Browser = Maxthon
    Audio book = Jagamaga
    TV = Tablet TV free
    Video conferencing = Adobe Connect
    plus all the regular music store, video store, Pressreader, Microsoft productivity and social networking stuffs.

    I am happy with my PB. Love the HDMI output.

    May be let's try it this way. Tell me what apps you are looking that is not available, I will try to find it for you. I must admit it took me a long time of searching for Osmand, for example.

    Some thread here claims you can get Airtime on the Facebook on the PB. I don't use it myself.

    So come, be specific. Don't just say there is lots of apps or not lots of apps. The question should be what apps do I need and does the PB has them?
    You honestly can't see that it's not just about what YOU need when you say the Playbook is not limited app wise? If you want my personal examples I can give you some. But, they are just my personal examples of what I use daily. They may mean nothing to someone else. The simple fact is they are app available on every other platform though though, and not Playbook.

    - Netflix (Trust me I hate to say it, but the simple fact is, I do use it)

    - EcoHeadache - a Migraine app that is very important to me. There are dozens of migraine diary apps available on other platforms to pick from.

    - SkyView - There are a couple of apps getting closer on Playbook (appreciate the developers efforts), but nothing close. Several other options as good as SkyView on other platforms.

    - Tunein Radio Pro - Browser version does not come close in functionality to the app. Basically no alternatives on Playbook other than Nobex which has a ridiculous pricing scheme requiring a subscription.

    - MotionX GPS - You'd have to use it to see why it's so great.

    - My bank's app - a fantastic UI, better than using a browser. Crazy a major bank's app is not available.

    - Decent stock Facebook, Twitter, and Podcast apps - The stock Playbook ones are all pretty sub-standard compared to other platforms. You can use the browser to solve Facebook and Twitter problems, but not the Podcast app issue. And there are basically no native Podcast apps.

    Pulse News - Very popular newsreader available on every platform. Runs well sideloaded, but I have to erase settings every time I have to update it (re-sideload). Stock reading app is decent, Taptu is not int he same league.

    Those are just some of the apps that I personally consider important for my daily use. They may not be important to you. But again, they are available for every other platform. Which is the overall problem when it comes to the app situation in general and consumers. Playbook is the only device you can't run a lot of these apps on. The other issue is it's not just the few apps listed, it's that you can list almost any good app on another platform (like Tunein Pro), and there will be a 1/2 dozen other very good alternative to choose from. That generally does not exist on Playbook. To say things like that won't affect sales for a large segment of people is ridiculous.

    Please keep in mind, I am not WHINING about these apps not being available. I bought my Playbook awhile ago, and I am over it. I'd love it if they were, but they aren't. I am simply addressing the issue that it 'doesn't matter' when it comes to a NEW Playbook STILL not running any of these apps.
    Last edited by torndownunit; 08-13-12 at 05:40 AM.
    08-13-12 05:31 AM
  16. beavertail2's Avatar
    - Netflix (Trust me I hate to say it, but the simple fact is, I do use it)

    Try Flix Movie Selector.
    Free movies at "Crackle" in "Free Tablet TV Free" (free)

    - EcoHeadache - a Migraine app that is very important to me. There are dozens of migraine diary apps available on other platforms to pick from.

    Headache Diary ($.99)

    - SkyView - There are a couple of apps getting closer on Playbook (appreciate the developers efforts), but nothing close. Several other options as good as SkyView on other platforms.

    Stellarium ($1.99)

    - Tunein Radio Pro - Browser version does not come close in functionality to the app. Basically no alternatives on Playbook other than Nobex which has a ridiculous pricing scheme requiring a subscription.

    Tunein Radio (free)

    - MotionX GPS - You'd have to use it to see why it's so great.

    There is Osmand. Online and offine map capability. Online and offline routing and voice navigation.

    - My bank's app - a fantastic UI, better than using a browser. Crazy a major bank's app is not available.

    There are some banks. Which is your?

    - Decent stock Facebook, Twitter, and Podcast apps - The stock Playbook ones are all pretty sub-standard compared to other platforms. You can use the browser to solve Facebook and Twitter problems, but not the Podcast app issue. And there are basically no native Podcast apps.

    There sure is a native Podcast app. There are Twitter and a Facebook for Blackberry Playbook,

    Pulse News - Very popular newsreader available on every platform. Runs well sideloaded, but I have to erase settings every time I have to update it (re-sideload). Stock reading app is decent, Taptu is not int he same league.

    There is an app called PressReader.

    Just to show you it is not what it used to be (14 months ago) that there are no apps for the PB. Things have improved a great deal in apps and in the Playbook OS V2.
    08-13-12 02:19 PM
  17. mikeo007's Avatar
    - Netflix (Trust me I hate to say it, but the simple fact is, I do use it)

    Try Flix Movie Selector.
    Free movies at "Crackle" in "Free Tablet TV Free" (free)

    - EcoHeadache - a Migraine app that is very important to me. There are dozens of migraine diary apps available on other platforms to pick from.

    Headache Diary ($.99)

    - SkyView - There are a couple of apps getting closer on Playbook (appreciate the developers efforts), but nothing close. Several other options as good as SkyView on other platforms.

    Stellarium ($1.99)

    - Tunein Radio Pro - Browser version does not come close in functionality to the app. Basically no alternatives on Playbook other than Nobex which has a ridiculous pricing scheme requiring a subscription.

    Tunein Radio (free)

    - MotionX GPS - You'd have to use it to see why it's so great.

    There is Osmand. Online and offine map capability. Online and offline routing and voice navigation.

    - My bank's app - a fantastic UI, better than using a browser. Crazy a major bank's app is not available.

    There are some banks. Which is your?

    - Decent stock Facebook, Twitter, and Podcast apps - The stock Playbook ones are all pretty sub-standard compared to other platforms. You can use the browser to solve Facebook and Twitter problems, but not the Podcast app issue. And there are basically no native Podcast apps.

    There sure is a native Podcast app. There are Twitter and a Facebook for Blackberry Playbook,

    Pulse News - Very popular newsreader available on every platform. Runs well sideloaded, but I have to erase settings every time I have to update it (re-sideload). Stock reading app is decent, Taptu is not int he same league.

    There is an app called PressReader.

    Just to show you it is not what it used to be (14 months ago) that there are no apps for the PB. Things have improved a great deal in apps and in the Playbook OS V2.
    While I'm sure this poster (and others) appreciate you offering up these alternative apps, please keep in mind that many of these apps are not equivalent. Some may have similar functionality, but they are not equivalent apps.

    Crackle for example is nowhere near what Netflix is, not even close.
    Similarly, Stellarium is nowhere close to skyview in features and functionality.

    The main app argument comes down to the fact that the Playbook tends to be missing a lot of the A-list apps. Sure, there are some B-list apps that offer some of the same functionality, and there are even some apps that offer better functionally than equivalents on other platforms, but the vast majority are lacking.
    08-13-12 02:36 PM
  18. torndownunit's Avatar
    - Netflix (Trust me I hate to say it, but the simple fact is, I do use it)

    Try Flix Movie Selector.
    Free movies at "Crackle" in "Free Tablet TV Free" (free)

    - EcoHeadache - a Migraine app that is very important to me. There are dozens of migraine diary apps available on other platforms to pick from.

    Headache Diary ($.99)

    - SkyView - There are a couple of apps getting closer on Playbook (appreciate the developers efforts), but nothing close. Several other options as good as SkyView on other platforms.

    Stellarium ($1.99)

    - Tunein Radio Pro - Browser version does not come close in functionality to the app. Basically no alternatives on Playbook other than Nobex which has a ridiculous pricing scheme requiring a subscription.

    Tunein Radio (free)

    - MotionX GPS - You'd have to use it to see why it's so great.

    There is Osmand. Online and offine map capability. Online and offline routing and voice navigation.

    - My bank's app - a fantastic UI, better than using a browser. Crazy a major bank's app is not available.

    There are some banks. Which is your?

    - Decent stock Facebook, Twitter, and Podcast apps - The stock Playbook ones are all pretty sub-standard compared to other platforms. You can use the browser to solve Facebook and Twitter problems, but not the Podcast app issue. And there are basically no native Podcast apps.

    There sure is a native Podcast app. There are Twitter and a Facebook for Blackberry Playbook,

    Pulse News - Very popular newsreader available on every platform. Runs well sideloaded, but I have to erase settings every time I have to update it (re-sideload). Stock reading app is decent, Taptu is not int he same league.

    There is an app called PressReader.

    Just to show you it is not what it used to be (14 months ago) that there are no apps for the PB. Things have improved a great deal in apps and in the Playbook OS V2.
    I don't mean to be rude because I know you are trying to be helpful on some level. But if you think any of these apps are the equivalent to what I listed, you must not have used the apps I listed. Most aren't even close to the same quality. I can go through addressing the differences in every app, but it's seems like it's probably a pointless discussion and other people in the thread don't seem to want to hear it.

    There is an entire thread listing the differences between Tunein Free and Tunein Pro (listing literally a dozen or more). There is an active thread right now on how horrible the Playbook's Podcast app is. There are threads all over the forum on how bad the Twitter and Facebook apps are. So I won't waste more space in this thread on this topic.

    I am not saying there aren't good Playbook apps by the way. There are some great ones I use.
    Last edited by torndownunit; 08-13-12 at 05:29 PM.
    08-13-12 04:59 PM
  19. torndownunit's Avatar
    This discussion is about a 'Fast browser on PlayBook LTE' - go take your app crying a55 some where else.
    Post #1 and #9 in this thread show the entire review. People are responding to those 2 posts. The review stated that one reason he wouldn't recommend the Playbook 4G was because of the app ecosystem. If you don't like people discussing that, then address the person who originally posted the review. The rest of us are just discussing what was posted. That review as the thread topic no matter what the thread title says.
    08-13-12 05:07 PM
  20. mapsonburt's Avatar
    You didn't answer my question: why has no other mass produced consumer product adopter QNX or a similar microkernel? Because they haven't solved these problems to the extent that you keep claiming.

    I did several case studies years ago, and at that time, these problems were all still relevant and prevalent, even in QNX.

    You seem to have the wrong idea, that I'm trying to play down QNX. I'm not. I'm sure that they've tweaked the out of the thing and that BB10 may very well be an outstanding OS. But you are hailing it as the single best OS/Kernel on the planet, and that is simply not true. You are speaking as though there is not a single fault with the microkernel design, yet in reality it has its pros and cons, just like any monolithic kernel design or hybrid.

    This all started when I said that QNX (and microkernels in general) were designed for stability first and foremost. I also stated that they were slower in any task that requires heavy context switching (many system calls). Both of these facts are still true, and I'm failing to see the point of this continued argument.
    I recall being able to run a huge number (like 50-80) of terminals off of a single original IBM PC running QNX back in the early eighties. As for consumer devices... my Merc runs QNX and so do most CISCO routers. Routers are about the heaviest task switchers you could dream up. QNX is much different than most micro kernals.... something you obviously missed in your research.
    08-13-12 10:43 PM
  21. varunsain's Avatar
    QNX QNX QNX QNX QNX QNX QNX is the best haha
    08-14-12 02:37 AM
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