08-29-13 10:19 AM
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  1. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    Hundreds different BB10 builds for Z10/Q10 have been leaked. Many builds for Dev alphas.

    Not a single PB BB10 leak.
    There weren't PlayBook leaks for earlier 1.x and 2.x either. OS builds usually leak from carriers and almost never from BlackBerry. The CrackBerry team will be the first to tell you this and has discussed it on many podcasts.

    Kinda hard to get a leak when the pool you usually get the leaks from (hundreds of carriers testing builds against their individual networks) isn't there.
    07-30-13 01:22 PM
  2. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Well, I'm not sure I'm with you on this one.

    In the UK criminal law requires a state of mind for an act (mens rea) to go with the act itself (actus reus). Intention is not necessary for murder, for instance. Gross recklessness is enough. Other crimes have lower hurdles of mental state, like negligence (driving for instance).

    I think it is very fair to say the CEO made a very reckless promise. Crackberry Kevin wrote an article several months ago saying BB10 would be way too slow on Playbook. Remember Thorstein has form in misleading - he said BB10 was rock solid and never rebooted. BelfastDispatcher said behind the scenes the people at RIM were saying it was not that stable at launch.
    Businesses have to change direction occasionally. It happens. Barnes & Noble just cancelled the whole LINE of Nook devices a couple of weeks ago with no notice whatsoever (imagine how THOSE customers feel!). I'm sure Avro didn't just design and develop the Arrow for their health, either; the full, honest intention was to bring it to market, but they were overtaken by circumstances beyond their control.

    BB made a commitment that would have made sense under many circumstances, particularly if the PlayBook was selling well enough to justify a successor device. Conditions changed, and they had to react. They had to make the best decision they could in the face of shareholders.

    I will again make the point: there was an extensive, good-faith effort to make this happen. They spent millions on it, and we saw leaked internal images that suggest the effort was quite advanced. I do think the experience would have been compromised in some way that would have degraded the PlayBook for some users (not as many apps available to keep open, possibly, and that's just one example), and I think business issues would have interfered with apps, and that could have resulted in some users not being able to use all the apps they had on PBOS.

    In retrospect, I'm sure Heins wishes he hadn't made the commitment, but that doesn't mean it was reckless or irresponsible. We've all made commitments in the course of our lives that we've had to withdraw.
    07-30-13 01:28 PM
  3. ubeda92's Avatar
    Actually, a lie by definition HAS to be "intentional". You have to know you're actually not telling the truth at the time you say it. Otherwise it's a "mistake". Most of us have made those at one point or another.
    Buckyboy:

    A lie doesn't have to be "intentional," by definitions that will stand up in U.S. courts.

    Buckyboy:

    Are you an attorney who has ever tried and won a case in any jurisdiction?

    I am.

    Your uninformed pronouncements regarding "lies" carry as much weight as a flea's fart.
    playbook_swiper1 likes this.
    07-30-13 01:38 PM
  4. Pilchard's Avatar
    Businesses have to change direction occasionally. It happens. Barnes & Noble just cancelled the whole LINE of Nook devices a couple of weeks ago with no notice whatsoever (imagine how THOSE customers feel!). I'm sure Avro didn't just design and develop the Arrow for their health, either; the full, honest intention was to bring it to market, but they were overtaken by circumstances beyond their control.

    BB made a commitment that would have made sense under many circumstances, particularly if the PlayBook was selling well enough to justify a successor device. Conditions changed, and they had to react. They had to make the best decision they could in the face of shareholders.

    I will again make the point: there was an extensive, good-faith effort to make this happen. They spent millions on it, and we saw leaked internal images that suggest the effort was quite advanced. I do think the experience would have been compromised in some way that would have degraded the PlayBook for some users (not as many apps available to keep open, possibly, and that's just one example), and I think business issues would have interfered with apps, and that could have resulted in some users not being able to use all the apps they had on PBOS.

    In retrospect, I'm sure Heins wishes he hadn't made the commitment, but that doesn't mean it was reckless or irresponsible. We've all made commitments in the course of our lives that we've had to withdraw.
    I agree with everything you say, except the bit about it not being a reckless promise. The reason is, as I mentioned, Kevin from Crackberry said several months ago BB10 would be too slow on the Playbooks hardware. RIM's techies would have known this. If it wasn't reckless (which it was) it was definitely incompetent. Neither word is one a CEO wants to be associated with.
    07-30-13 01:39 PM
  5. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    I fail to understand how anyone can defend TH position that BB10 just wasn't acceptable on the PB and that BBRY only just found this little nugget out in JUNE 2013, 6 months after the release of BB10 on the z10 and coincedentaly when BBRY probably exhausted all the PB WIFI inventory.
    Again, not defending it, but I think it's probably a bit more complicated. I think four things happened. This is my theory, and does not have solid evidence, but I'll give it any way.

    1. In the integration phase of the software (when all of the thousands of individual pieces come together for testing), they discovered a serious problem with performance that wasn't expected.

    2. They had one of two choices - double the RAM to increase the performance (and increase BOM costs a lot) but get the product out on time; or 2). Spend a lot more dev effort to get it working in 1 GB of RAM instead of 2 GB ... and delay the release again.The Dev Alpha A and Dev Alpha B both had 1 GB of RAM (like PlayBook). Dev Alpha B came out in late September, which suggests that the doubling of RAM was pretty late in the game from a hardware development perspective.

    3. They had plans for a successor PlayBook which would necessitated BlackBerry 10 on a tablet. Doing this work for the new tablet would pick off a lot of work on the old tablet, including re-laying out all the apps for a tablet screen. Even in February, Thorsten was suggesting that he was still looking at tablets but starting to gripe about the business case. This suggests to me that it was beginning to look like a successor PlayBook would be another money loser.

    4. BlackBerry began to run out of inventory of PlayBooks and couldn't justify doing a new run for the price they'd likely be getting for them from the retailers.

    In the end, I suspect that without a successor product to absorb the work expense, no existing inventory left to sell and a surprise technical challenge that would drive up dev costs, they walked away.

    That's my theory anyway.

    (And yes, I think Thorsten did publicly break a promise and it sucked).
    kevinnugent and Angus_CB like this.
    07-30-13 01:49 PM
  6. duty14's Avatar
    Actually, a lie by definition HAS to be "intentional". You have to know you're actually not telling the truth at the time you say it. Otherwise it's a "mistake". Most of us have made those at one point or another.
    Oh stop it with the meaning of the word lie - it's a childish discussion. This is not the main point.
    They released an unfinished product at release? -True
    They said this product is their future? - True
    They promised improvements to their unfinished product? - True
    They promised features that will come in the future? -True
    They even promise after the BB10 with all its features on PlayBooks? - True
    They promised support for this product in the future? - True
    They even released improved PlayBook 4G with months before before the release of BB10?- True

    Now:
    People buyed or were influenced by the promises of BB declared publicly? - True
    People payed full retail money at release for an unfinished product? - True
    People buyed this product not worrying that this will not have support? - True
    People buyed because they believed in BB and Heins despite the hard times BB was going? - True
    People buyed the improved Playbook 4G and the future of BB10 on it? - True
    Did buyers waited patiently with an unfinished product for 2 years that BB will deliver their promises and understood had the work of BB for BB10 before they will get the promises promised from the start? -Yes
    So did PlayBook clients in a way supported and believed in RIM/ BB in their difficult times? -Yes

    And now what the buyers/clients/loyal customers got from all that in exchange ?

    A finished product until now after 2+ years ? -No
    A lot of features that were promised delivered ? - No
    BB10 that was promised with all its features including BBM ( witch any other system will have it excepting their PlayBook ? -No
    A large app ecosystem including the possibility to use the Android apps?- No
    A competitive tablet vs other tablets? "Ipad killer"? - No
    A future product for BB and their direction and a quality product? - No
    If not getting BB10 or any other of their promises will it still get support in the future or basic updates? - NO
    Did they leave the Playbook die and not recognize it anymore in the future? - "Confirmed"
    Some facts and variants showing they worked on BB10 and it's absolutely impossible to bring BB10 ? - No
    Did they publicly excuse for not delivered their promises? -No
    Did they came with an argument that is very not plausible? - yes. That argument shows they think we are stupid ? -yes. Did they wanted to get away with it easy and quietly? -Yes and they did.
    Do they try to compensate somehow in other ways their promises not delivered? - No
    Did they appreciated the support from customers through their difficult times? - No
    Do they care about their customers? - It looks like definitely not!!!

    So you guys still want to defend BB and Heins after all this? And make stupid excuses not even BB think of? And other childish excuses if they lied or not and try find the meaning of life around the word lie? If you think that all their treatment can be excused with a lie debate than by all means but that doesn't help at all. If you care about something, you wanted it to succeed not only for you but for everyone so it will have success not only now but in the future also...
    There are not enough fanboys to support the aspirations of BB to succeed in this competitive domain...
    07-30-13 02:37 PM
  7. drmike's Avatar
    Thread has beaten like a dead horse.

    Posted via CB10 on my Z10!
    RubberChicken76 likes this.
    07-30-13 02:38 PM
  8. Pilchard's Avatar
    Oh stop it with the meaning of the word lie - it's a childish discussion. This is not the main point.
    They released an unfinished product at release? -True
    They said this product is their future? - True
    They promised improvements to their unfinished product? - True
    They promised features that will come in the future? -True
    They even promise after the BB10 with all its features on PlayBooks? - True
    They promised support for this product in the future? - True
    They even released improved PlayBook 4G with months before before the release of BB10?- True

    Now:
    People buyed or were influenced by the promises of BB declared publicly? - True
    People payed full retail money at release for an unfinished product? - True
    People buyed this product not worrying that this will not have support? - True
    People buyed because they believed in BB and Heins despite the hard times BB was going? - True
    People buyed the improved Playbook 4G and the future of BB10 on it? - True
    Did buyers waited patiently with an unfinished product for 2 years that BB will deliver their promises and understood had the work of BB for BB10 before they will get the promises promised from the start? -Yes
    So did PlayBook clients in a way supported and believed in RIM/ BB in their difficult times? -Yes

    And now what the buyers/clients/loyal customers got from all that in exchange ?

    A finished product until now after 2+ years ? -No
    A lot of features that were promised delivered ? - No
    BB10 that was promised with all its features including BBM ( witch any other system will have it excepting their PlayBook ? -No
    A large app ecosystem including the possibility to use the Android apps?- No
    A competitive tablet vs other tablets? "Ipad killer"? - No
    A future product for BB and their direction and a quality product? - No
    If not getting BB10 or any other of their promises will it still get support in the future or basic updates? - NO
    Did they leave the Playbook die and not recognize it anymore in the future? - "Confirmed"
    Some facts and variants showing they worked on BB10 and it's absolutely impossible to bring BB10 ? - No
    Did they publicly excuse for not delivered their promises? -No
    Did they came with an argument that is very not plausible? - yes. That argument shows they think we are stupid ? -yes. Did they wanted to get away with it easy and quietly? -Yes and they did.
    Do they try to compensate somehow in other ways their promises not delivered? - No
    Did they appreciated the support from customers through their difficult times? - No
    Do they care about their customers? - It looks like definitely not!!!

    So you guys still want to defend BB and Heins after all this? And make stupid excuses not even BB think of? And other childish excuses if they lied or not and try find the meaning of life around the word lie? If you think that all their treatment can be excused with a lie debate than by all means but that doesn't help at all. If you care about something, you wanted it to succeed not only for you but for everyone so it will have success not only now but in the future also...
    There are not enough fanboys to support the aspirations of BB to succeed in this competitive domain...
    I'm guessing you feel strongly about this ;-)
    FF22 and playbook_swiper1 like this.
    07-30-13 02:39 PM
  9. FF22's Avatar
    Actually, a lie by definition HAS to be "intentional". You have to know you're actually not telling the truth at the time you say it. Otherwise it's a "mistake". Most of us have made those at one point or another.
    How 'bout "lie by omission?" Yes, I'm guessing, but I'm pretty sure he knew quite a bit sooner that it was not coming. The SMIRK he offered at the meeing prior to the announcement was pretty telling. He was actively avoiding the question and I'm pretty certain that he knew even earlier. He strung people along.

    Okay, a GOOD businessman cited by others would extend themselves to make good where a customer was badly burned by a failure of service. FIX OS2 which remains broken because they abandoned it to provide "ALL PB owners bb10" and so stopped wasting time on OS2 improvements that were long overdue.

    Yes, I'm sure that they want us to forget that aspect of their very poor customer relations. Broken promises piled upon broken promises. The house of cards is getting shaky.
    07-30-13 02:44 PM
  10. msps's Avatar
    Actually, a lie by definition HAS to be "intentional". You have to know you're actually not telling the truth at the time you say it. Otherwise it's a "mistake". Most of us have made those at one point or another.
    It was not my point.

    He said something that "was not a lie" in January.
    He kept repeating it for 6 months. The same statement.

    It became the lie as soon as he decided to scrap the BB10 for PB project
    Only fool would believe it happened right in the end of June.

    His statement might have been unintentional in January but it was intentional in June.
    The statement was the same.
    07-30-13 03:08 PM
  11. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    They released an unfinished product at release? -True
    No argument.

    They said this product is their future? - True
    Not the PlayBook persay, but rather the QNX based OS on the PlayBook. And it is.

    They promised improvements to their unfinished product? - True
    And they did provide a good number. Not as many as people would like, and not BlackBerry 10, but there were 10 updates, including a pretty substantial jump from 1.0 to 2.0.


    They even promise after the BB10 with all its features on PlayBooks? - True
    I'm a little fuzzy on this. Not disputing that it didn't ever occur, but I follow this company closely and actually don't remember them saying, "no, this feature isn't coming until we do BlackBerry 10 on PlayBook". I'm sure it's out there, but don't think it happened as much as people remember it.

    People buyed or were influenced by the promises of BB declared publicly? - True
    Sure. Some. You see them on the forums. A lot could care less.

    People payed full retail money at release for an unfinished product? - True
    Also some, but likely the minority. They shipped 850,000 and then took a big write down on inventory (in stock and in the channels). This was reflected in price cuts within about 6 months of launch and then further price cuts. The move cleared the channel and allowed more inventory to flow in. Doubtful that the majority of even that first 850,000 sold at the full original price, let alone the subsequent 1.6 million that shipped. And that's to me the real reason why we aren't seeing BlackBerry 10. They sold it at a loss

    People buyed this product not worrying that this will not have support? - True
    Some. A lot of people I know with PlayBooks bought a cheap tablet with no care in the world about BlackBerry, BlackBerry 10 or updates.
    Did buyers waited patiently with an unfinished product for 2 years that BB will deliver their promises and understood had the work of BB for BB10 before they will get the promises promised from the start? -Yes
    Let's not exaggerate here. In April 2011, people did not even know what BlackBerry 10 was going to be called or what features it had. They did not have this dream that in two years, this glorious OS would come out. They waited for BlackBerry Tablet OS updates ... and these did come. 10 of them.

    And now what the buyers/clients/loyal customers got from all that in exchange ?
    For me and a lot of other people? A $200 64 GB tablet that plays a lot of games and videos for a fraction of the price of an iPad.

    A large app ecosystem including the possibility to use the Android apps?- No
    PlayBook does support Android apps. And you're confusing people's aspirations with promises made by RIM.

    A competitive tablet vs other tablets? "Ipad killer"? - No
    In your opinion. I was personally pleased to get a 64 GB tablet for $200 when a comparable iPad at the time cost 4 times that.
    07-30-13 03:08 PM
  12. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Buckyboy:

    A lie doesn't have to be "intentional," by definitions that will stand up in U.S. courts.

    Buckyboy:

    Are you an attorney who has ever tried and won a case in any jurisdiction?

    I am.

    Your uninformed pronouncements regarding "lies" carry as much weight as a flea's fart.
    Semantically, a "lie" connotes a deliberate attempt to mislead. You cannot lie in good faith. You CAN make a statement in good faith that later turns out to me inaccurate. Call that a miscalculation or an outright blunder, but it's not the same thing.

    From the awesome PHYSICAL keyboard of my Q10
    07-30-13 03:19 PM
  13. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Oh stop it with the meaning of the word lie - it's a childish discussion. This is not the main point.
    They released an unfinished product at release? -True
    They said this product is their future? - True
    They promised improvements to their unfinished product? - True
    They promised features that will come in the future? -True
    They even promise after the BB10 with all its features on PlayBooks? - True
    They promised support for this product in the future? - True
    They even released improved PlayBook 4G with months before before the release of BB10?- True

    Now:
    People buyed or were influenced by the promises of BB declared publicly? - True
    People payed full retail money at release for an unfinished product? - True
    People buyed this product not worrying that this will not have support? - True
    People buyed because they believed in BB and Heins despite the hard times BB was going? - True
    People buyed the improved Playbook 4G and the future of BB10 on it? - True
    Did buyers waited patiently with an unfinished product for 2 years that BB will deliver their promises and understood had the work of BB for BB10 before they will get the promises promised from the start? -Yes
    So did PlayBook clients in a way supported and believed in RIM/ BB in their difficult times? -Yes

    And now what the buyers/clients/loyal customers got from all that in exchange ?

    A finished product until now after 2+ years ? -No
    A lot of features that were promised delivered ? - No
    BB10 that was promised with all its features including BBM ( witch any other system will have it excepting their PlayBook ? -No
    A large app ecosystem including the possibility to use the Android apps?- No
    A competitive tablet vs other tablets? "Ipad killer"? - No
    A future product for BB and their direction and a quality product? - No
    If not getting BB10 or any other of their promises will it still get support in the future or basic updates? - NO
    Did they leave the Playbook die and not recognize it anymore in the future? - "Confirmed"
    Some facts and variants showing they worked on BB10 and it's absolutely impossible to bring BB10 ? - No
    Did they publicly excuse for not delivered their promises? -No
    Did they came with an argument that is very not plausible? - yes. That argument shows they think we are stupid ? -yes. Did they wanted to get away with it easy and quietly? -Yes and they did.
    Do they try to compensate somehow in other ways their promises not delivered? - No
    Did they appreciated the support from customers through their difficult times? - No
    Do they care about their customers? - It looks like definitely not!!!

    So you guys still want to defend BB and Heins after all this? And make stupid excuses not even BB think of? And other childish excuses if they lied or not and try find the meaning of life around the word lie? If you think that all their treatment can be excused with a lie debate than by all means but that doesn't help at all. If you care about something, you wanted it to succeed not only for you but for everyone so it will have success not only now but in the future also...
    There are not enough fanboys to support the aspirations of BB to succeed in this competitive domain...
    Won't argue with any of what you say here. To back down on this commitment absolutely erodes BlackBerry's credibility. I wouldn't blame anyone for abandoning the brand over this.

    But there's a huge difference between trying to fulfill a commitment and failing, and never intending to offer it to begin with. One is a legitimate business reality, and the other is fraud.

    I get that you're pissed. We all are. But don't go out of your way to distort reality so that you can justify your righteous indignation.

    From the awesome PHYSICAL keyboard of my Q10
    07-30-13 03:27 PM
  14. playbook_swiper1's Avatar
    In retrospect, I'm sure Heins wishes he hadn't made the commitment, but that doesn't mean it was reckless or irresponsible. We've all made commitments in the course of our lives that we've had to withdraw.
    Quit being such an apologist.
    the_sleuth likes this.
    07-30-13 03:48 PM
  15. jpash549's Avatar
    Businesses have to change direction occasionally. It happens. Barnes & Noble just cancelled the whole LINE of Nook devices a couple of weeks ago with no notice whatsoever (imagine how THOSE customers feel!).

    .
    Barnes and Noble did make their customers very happy by opening up access to Google Play, Kindle and the Chrome browser. Of course it is still running Android 4.0 but you can install Jelly Bean from a third party. And it is easy to root. The accessories can be found at a discount.
    Ragwan and WeAreNotAlone like this.
    07-30-13 03:56 PM
  16. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Quit being such an apologist.
    Again, it comes back to reasonable expectation. It's hard to say if they missed something important when they originally planned the update, or if conditions changed during development, but circumstances clearly reached a point where they were no longer able to proceed.

    I'm not trying to tell anyone not to feel angry or disappointed over this decision, and if there's a clear case of consumer fraud I believe the company should absolutely be held to account. What I'm saying is that you can't convict on suspicion, and that it's provocative and inflammatory to throw around random accusations.
    07-30-13 04:10 PM
  17. AlexXF's Avatar
    First at all, sorry for my english, i'm not native.

    Now i can tell you something without worrying for my insides. Just facts about BB10, Playbook mystery and lie.

    1. There was no BB10 SDK available for PlayBook. Never!
    2. At September 2012 i've got information from my contact at RIM, that BB10 requires 2GB of RAM.
    3. At December 2012 i've seen working Q10/Z10 prototype with 1GB of RAM and get confirmation again - yes, BB10 requires 2GB of RAM. This prototype works, but not so smooth and had memory issues.
    4. At January 2013 i've got private confirmation from other source in RIM - probably there is no BB10 for PlayBook because 1GB RAM is not enough by design.
    5. There was no working Q10 at 30th January, it does not works! Yes, it has 10.1 OS, but this OS was not been adapted for Q10. What you see at BB10 launch event (probably) has been Q10 with 1GB RAM.
    6. There was no working DevAlpha C at 30th January, RIM workers has only 1GB Q10 prototype. So, Q10 cannot be released at Feb/March as promised.
    7. At July 2013 i've got private confirmation from same ex-source in RIM - my contact has no seen any BB10 builds for PlayBook in BBRY developer network.

    So... They knows about memory problem a long a go before epic Heins lie statement. I can't get any confirmation about BB10 for Playbook from any sources. Looks like it never exists.

    Now more facts:

    1. There is confirmation about memory usage model in BB10. No memory swap.
    2. Headless apps requires memory for security isolation
    3. Jelly Bean VM will requires more RAM than Android 2.3 VM
    4. Android 5 will use memory swap more aggressive
    5. Z10, Q10 looks like they near EOL (price cut, production decreased)

    Now you can think yourself - is A10 DOA (is next PlayBook story) or not I would not be surprised if BB 10.3/4 will requires new device and will not be compatible with Z10/A10/Q10.
    FF22, msps and WeAreNotAlone like this.
    07-30-13 04:12 PM
  18. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    7. At July 2013 i've got private confirmation from same ex-source in RIM - my contact has no seen any BB10 builds for PlayBook in BBRY developer network.
    On this point, I know many people who work for BlackBerry now and BlackBerry past. It's very important to understand that this company has a strict, "need to know" policy. Meaning, if you don't "need to know", they don't tell you. People cannot access all things on all networks, all builds etc. Someone in marketing, for example, can't go and grab a random build of an OS in development and place it on their phone or tablet. Nor can a co-op working in the IT department on some internal tool go and grab the latest internal build of BBM. It's locked. It's actually been one of the longstanding gripes and problems with execution because people often don't "find out" what they need to know until it's too late.

    This would be particularly true if a product was still in early stages of development. Daily builds of an OS would be kept to that OS team and not shared with anyone making apps that had to run on it until it was ready to go through its own internal testing. Unless your contact is a high up VP of engineering, they probably would never see it until it went through internal testing and was ready to be shared with other internal teams.

    This, I know for a fact.
    07-30-13 04:19 PM
  19. AlexXF's Avatar
    My contact had access to daily build OS, but you're right - maybe he does not have access to tablet OS.

    Anyway - i can't find any evidence about BB10 for PlayBook is exists. And no one can't find it. Why?
    FF22 likes this.
    07-30-13 04:29 PM
  20. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    My contact had access to daily build OS, but you're right - maybe he does not have access to tablet OS.

    Anyway - i can't find any evidence about BB10 for PlayBook is exists. And no one can't find it. Why?
    There are people on the forums who claimed to have seen it. My suspicion is that it was only a small part of the way along (ie. 20%) at an OS level before it was mothballed.
    07-30-13 04:49 PM
  21. msps's Avatar
    My contact had access to daily build OS, but you're right - maybe he does not have access to tablet OS.

    Anyway - i can't find any evidence about BB10 for PlayBook is exists. And no one can't find it. Why?
    Thorstein Heins says it exists.
    Don't you believe him?
    07-30-13 05:44 PM
  22. duty14's Avatar
    @RubberChicken76 - Im not gonna debate all those points again... You agree in most of them that say only some did that, some did something else, some buyed it for something , some buyed it for something else etc. The fact is PlayBooks were sold at different prices not just the smallest price or the biggest. Or were buyed by customers for different utilities etc. But that is not the point. It doesn't matter if you like your investment or not or you are satisfied with your tablet. This is about the majority. And the majority we can see on this thread that they are very unsatisfied and most of us agree that BB did the worst possible thing with PlayBook and their PlayBook customers..If you want a cheap tablet that does basic stuff I can recommend you some and they will have more apps for you cause its based on Android. Don't fool yourself that PlayBook has all the apps you need or it should have compared to other tablets... Or you can't use the tablet for everything you want... Most of the users can agree with this especially those who experienced Android and IOS , and even those apps you purchased for PlayBook will be forgotten and obsolete... So people including me have the right to be very unsatisfied with the whole treatment of BB with their customers for all this time and the future... Personally unlike like you if I pay for something indifferent of the sum I want to use it as much as I can. So if I knew this will happen I would gladly pay for an Expensive Ipad that will be supported many years and it will have all it needs.
    07-30-13 05:44 PM
  23. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    How 'bout "lie by omission?" Yes, I'm guessing, but I'm pretty sure he knew quite a bit sooner that it was not coming. The SMIRK he offered at the meeing prior to the announcement was pretty telling. He was actively avoiding the question and I'm pretty certain that he knew even earlier. He strung people along.

    Okay, a GOOD businessman cited by others would extend themselves to make good where a customer was badly burned by a failure of service. FIX OS2 which remains broken because they abandoned it to provide "ALL PB owners bb10" and so stopped wasting time on OS2 improvements that were long overdue.

    Yes, I'm sure that they want us to forget that aspect of their very poor customer relations. Broken promises piled upon broken promises. The house of cards is getting shaky.
    How far back are we going? They stopped discussing the PlayBook back before BB World, so yes, it's safe to say the decision had been made by then.

    There is a certain amount of latitude allowed in how a business goes about releasing information. Yes, it would have been more transparent for BB to announce the decision as soon as they'd arrived at it. As it is, it looks like they sat on it for maybe 6-8 weeks, and it was probably to avoid bad press during BB10's first full quarter of availability. That's mildly questionable, but it's within their rights to keep a lid on controversial news until they they're ready to disclose it.
    07-30-13 06:15 PM
  24. duty14's Avatar
    Won't argue with any of what you say here. To back down on this commitment absolutely erodes BlackBerry's credibility. I wouldn't blame anyone for abandoning the brand over this.

    But there's a huge difference between trying to fulfill a commitment and failing, and never intending to offer it to begin with. One is a legitimate business reality, and the other is fraud.

    I get that you're pissed. We all are. But don't go out of your way to distort reality so that you can justify your righteous indignation.

    From the awesome PHYSICAL keyboard of my Q10
    This is not a commitment of one man or a couple of persons. BB has a lot of employees, a lot of partnerships ( sales, devs etc. ) and a whole lot more of clients. So if you screw up you screw up a lot of people. Those decisions are not done by one man and are not taken easy and done in days or months... So if you think this is a mistake figured out only now by just a couple of people as a surprise after such a long time than you are fooling yourself... This was a long process and it started long time ago so a possible surprise after such a long time discovered only at the end seems very unlikely.. I'll bet when they started 1Gb of RAM was more than enough.. So when you have so many people working on such a long time...-> It's very unlikely for a surprise...

    I could be pissed a little but you are mistaking that this makes me not thinking real. I don't distort reality I'm just stating the facts in big picture so fanboys and even you can see that this situation and was treated very poorly by BB and on top of that they don't even care about their customers, or loyal clients or fanboys that buyed their PlayBook tablet and believed in them...

    So any defence about the "lie word" or "fail situation by surprise " its ridiculous and they didn't do anything to show they are sorry or try to compensate "their surprise on last 100 meters incompetence " to show they at least care about their clients /loyal customers/fans etc.
    07-30-13 06:21 PM
  25. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    This is not a commitment of one man or a couple of persons. BB has a lot of employees, a lot of partnerships ( sales, devs etc. ) and a whole lot more of clients. So if you screw up you screw up a lot of people. Those decisions are not done by one man and are not taken easy and done in days or months... So if you think this is a mistake figured out only now by just a couple of people as a surprise after such a long time than you are fooling yourself... This was a long process and it started long time ago so a possible surprise after such a long time discovered only at the end seems very unlikely.. I'll bet when they started 1Gb of RAM was more than enough.. So when you have so many people working on such a long time...-> It's very unlikely for a surprise...
    Agreed. I'm sure there are many, many people within BlackBerry who are just as disappointed as we are. I'm sure BB10 could have worked on 1GB RAM (since it worked reasonably well on the Dev Alpha devices), but it was choppy and apps frequently force-closed. I think there's at least a possibility that users might have been angrier and more disappointed at a BB10 update that messed their machines up irreparably than one that didn't come at all.

    And, again, I think that there were business issues that had nothing to do with how well BB10 worked on the device itself.

    I could be pissed a little but you are mistaking that this makes me not thinking real. I don't distort reality I'm just stating the facts in big picture so fanboys and even you can see that this situation and was treated very poorly by BB and on top of that they don't even care about their customers, or loyal clients or fanboys that buyed their PlayBook tablet and believed in them...
    I think you're distorting reality if you try to claim that BB lied. If I tell my wife in the morning that I'm going to make pot roast for dinner, and I don't defrost it in time and make chicken instead, I'm not "lying". It's only a lie if I tell my wife I'm making pot roast when I have no intention of doing so.

    That may seem like a trivial issue to you, but accusing someone of "lying" is a very, very different thing from accusing them of making a mistake. If there's evidence that the company actually misled customers over this, that isn't just a $5 refund to every PlayBook owner, that's a shareholder lawsuit for distorting the value of the company.

    So any defence about the "lie word" or "fail situation by surprise " its ridiculous and they didn't do anything to show they are sorry or try to compensate "their surprise on last 100 meters incompetence " to show they at least care about their clients /loyal customers/fans etc.
    I don't know. Back in June these boards were rife with critics convinced that BB was just going to quietly let the PlayBook fade out without saying anything at all, and I was equally convinced that if the update was going to be dropped that the company would at least be honest about it. They did, at least, do that. I agree that BB should find some way to thank PlayBook users. Hopefully they do, but I don't see much point in harboring grudges in the meantime. Life's too short.
    Barljo likes this.
    07-30-13 06:38 PM
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