08-29-13 10:19 AM
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  1. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    I don't think the older Apple devices will be able to use all the features of iOS 7. They'll probably get a scaled-back version of it that should run well on their devices. The point is, they're getting OS updates. If I owned an iPad 2 I'd welcome any updates that might extend the useful life of my tablet a little longer.
    07-18-13 10:27 AM
  2. lorax1284's Avatar
    "Reasonable/unreasonable" are judgements.
    Yes, and there is a huge risk here that what Thor thinks is "reasonable" is not and lots of, daring to use the past tense, "once loyal" BB fans are less so now.

    Since you don't know for sure what challenges BB faced in completing this upgrade you're actually in no position to make those judgements.
    I am in an EXCELLENT position. I know enough about tech to know that Apple could put iOS 7 on the iPod Touch 4Gen line. With 20+ years in high tech, I'm positive they could make improvements to PlayBook OS2.1 and if they don't want to, even minor improvements, it's not because of technical problems. No public statements have been made about adding value to PlayBook OS, just that BB10 exhibits performance problems. No benefit of the doubt to BB on this one.

    BB evidently came to the conclusion that they had less to lose by disappointing PlayBook owners than by spending the resources it would take to get the upgrade to work.
    My point was that even if full BB10 can't be made to work, some improvements to PlayBook OS including improved WebKit / JavaScript engines so the browser performance improves should be doable: I do pay attention to the development of these core technologies and there hasn't been a seed change in the code that means integrating them into PlayBook OS 2.x should prove impossible or even costly.

    That may even work out to be the wrong decision. Time will tell.
    It's the right decision if their loyal customers just lie back and take it, rather than being vocal about it.. I'm not saying there are no words that can be used to convince me of the "wisdom" for BlackBerry to not update PlayBook OS 2.1, but as it stands, I have seen the affect of this decision and their blaz attitude about it ("hardest decision": just words, and not borne out by any technical justification)

    And I've made the point elsewhere, I'm sure there were business decisions ON TOP of the technical decisions. Some developers might have been uncooperative. There may have been legal conflicts that couldn't easily be settled. Who knows?
    Sorry, I'm not sure if you're referring to the BB10 or just updating PlayBook OS 2.x. I don't see how updating existing code could have a slew of legal issues related to it and "uncooperative developers"? That's a non-issue if I ever heard of one. You mean diva developers that won't work on projects because they aren't fun or interesting or something? There's an easy fix for that.

    That one's easy: there's absolutely ZERO business case for it. All PlayBooks have been sold or otherwise disposed of, so the company wasn't going to see any further sales revenue. Yes, there's the "keep users interested in the ecosystem" argument, but a couple of million users are barely worth maintaining an ecosystem FOR.
    You've missed the point, entirely, a rare thing for you TB... this isn't about whether further investments in the PlayBook OS will turn into further revenues FOR THE PLAYBOOK, or the new OS will have a new life beyond the PlayBook: it's simply a case of whether it is actually in BlackBerry's best interests to cut and run on this, OR if a modest effort to appease PlayBook owners will STAVE OFF further "loyal customer" defections. The twats at BGR got that way because they USED to be passionate BlackBerry advocates and got disappointed one-to-many times. If you take loyal customers and **** them off ENOUGH, they don't just become non-customers: they become ANTI-BLACKBERRY ADVOCATES, not necessarily recommending FOR a competing product, but simply advocating AGAINST BlackBerry because they don't support their customers. "If you want your device to be supported, don't buy a BlackBerry...". <-- THIS IS WHAT BLACKBERRY CAN NOT AFFORD. Unless they just think "ah, they'll get over it.". I think their market share and vocal Anti-BlackBerry sentiment around the world is proof that "Hell hath no fury like a fanboi scorned."

    It would have been done pretty much for the exclusive reason of maintaining goodwill among current PlayBook users.
    Who are, in large part ALSO more inclined to be BB Ltd. advocates and fans, not just average indifferent consumers: I don't have data to back this up, but who would buy a PlayBook in the face of competition like that of Google and Apple unless they were BlackBerry platform "fans" (that is, before the dumpster diving price drop).

    As such a user myself, sure, it would have been nice, but at some point that value proposition hit a point where it just didn't work anymore.
    So, speaking just for yourself: are you now as likely to be an advocate for BlackBerry products as you would have been if BB10 did come to the PlayBook? Or even if just a patched / updated PlayBook OS came to the PlayBook with an apology? Has this changed your attitude toward BlackBerry to the negative? Would that be less so or entirely mitigated by more of an explanation AND a GENUINE SINCERE offer to update the PlayBook OS and restore the Bridge functionality (for starters) and attempt to update the browser AND possibly even attempt to integrate Android 4.2 (which I personally don't care about but for lots of tinkerers, it would really mitigate the issue).

    I believe Thor when he said that canceling the PB update was one of the hardest decisions he's had to make. I don't think it was made in haste, and it reflects on his own personal credibility because he personally made the commitment. If the issues were so easy to resolve I think the company would have done its best to actually resolve them.
    Again, not sure if you are referring to BB10 or any kind of modest PlayBook update, because there is a decent chance that his reasoning went the way of "BB10 or Bust" and there's been no commentary of the nature that "we tried to integrate the new WebKit and Javascript engines, but they caused our test devices to actually explode. In flames. People were actually physically harmed by the attempt." Not a word, which is a different kind of disrespect to the most ardent BB advocates.

    While I'm more "sad" than "contemptuous" myself, I completely understand why you (or anyone else) would feel that way. This is something we were all hoping for, and BlackBerry repeatedly reaffirmed the commitment. It may not be a "lie", or even a "broken promise" (since the word "promise" was never used), but it IS a failed commitment. And, I'm keeping my eyes open for a deal on a Windows RT tablet...
    I have no ill will about not getting BB10: I actually don't get the value of having the full HUB etc. on a TABLET that doesn't have full cellular network coverage: if I can't use it as my standalone communications hub, no pun intended, I don't need the Hub. Also, BB10 software created for the Z10 and Q10 screens... would they need MORE work for the 1024 x 600 PlayBook screen? Fat chance getting any third party devs to bother with that... so for me, the value of full-on BB10 was not so great... so, to compensate for broken promises, knowing what I know about tech, about what is possible (it's my profession to know these things) I don't buy that a PlayBook OS 2.x update wouldn't be worthwhile in terms of both performance AND utility AND modest expense to BB AND Goodwill with what's left of the dwindling BB advocacy community: US.

    My wife's 3 year old iPhone 4 will receive the iOS 7 update. Will she be able to enjoy all the new OS features? Of course not. Will she be able to enjoy some new features? Yes.

    The iPad 2 is two years old, and it will also receive the iOS 7 update.

    I soundly reject the "it's a two year old tablet" excuse, and would gladly welcome even minor updates to the browser, email/contacts/calendar apps, even the Facebook app.
    ...but the iPod Touch 4th gen is NOT getting the update... don't hold BB to a standard that you don't hold Apple to. They're just skipping iPod Touch 4 for purely strategic reasons, as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by lorax1284; 07-18-13 at 10:43 AM.
    07-18-13 10:28 AM
  3. msps's Avatar
    It's a two year old tablet. Two years is a long time in technology terms.

    Excuses, excuses.

    PlayBook LTE is only few months older than Z10 and younger than some Dev Alphas running BB10.
    look_alive, duty14, FF22 and 2 others like this.
    07-18-13 10:53 AM
  4. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Sorry it was late at night. I edited my post.
    Of course I meant JUNE 2013.
    Few weeks before 28th earning call.
    I do not care what motives were.
    He lied for months.

    The apologist try to convince me he did not lie in January.
    I take it in good faith but... there is absolutely no way to explain later statements.

    Corporate double speak?
    I call it a single speak LIE

    Remember end of MAY BB Mexico tweets confirming BB10 for PB?
    http://mobilesyrup.com/wp-content/up...13/05/bbmx.png

    Folks from Mexico may have said too much at the time and tt was removed
    because BB head-quoter KNEW at the time it was already canceled
    and the correct message was meant to be:

    "nothing changed in our strategy blahblahblah"
    Yes, as I say, the decision to pull the plug likely came in April, and that's when they stopped discussing the upgrade. Yes, you can make the point that from that time forward they were WITHHOLDING an announcement. They did say, though, that they were "re-evaluating" the strategy, so that could at least have been taken as a hint. Would it have made that big a difference to you if you'd heard in April or May that the update wasn't coming? Would you really have been less angry or disappointed?

    Corporate communications can be a seemingly-nonsensical thing. BB likely wanted to hold off on announcing the change as long as they could manage just for the sake of avoiding bad news during the BB10 launch quarter. On the scale of corporate ethical breaches this ranks pretty low.
    EchoesFX likes this.
    07-18-13 01:57 PM
  5. playbook_swiper1's Avatar
    If it was not false at the time he said it, it is not a lie. That's my point, and nothing more.
    By any chance are you a politician?

    The truth is the truth, as long as it was the truth at the time?

    Don't make promises you can't keep.
    Don't write cheques that you can't cash.
    Don't speak unequivocally and with conviction unless you have to goods to back it up.

    Had THOR said he was intending on, attempting to, working on, bringing BB10 to the Playbook - BUT THAT IT WAS CONTINGENT ON A GOOD USER EXPERIENCE!!! then we wouldn't all be pissed off now. Would we. Disappointed - YES! Pissed off? NO. It comes down to credibility and honesty.
    msps, FF22 and bambinoitaliano like this.
    07-18-13 02:02 PM
  6. playbook_swiper1's Avatar
    What you describe isn't a lie at all. "Truth" is an ethical construct, not a factual one.

    If you say something in good faith that is ultimately proven wrong, you are inaccurate, but not dishonest.

    It's only a "lie" if you tell people the sky is red when you already know it isn't.

    From the awesome virtual keyboard of my Z10
    Sort of - When he e-mailed his friend he should have clarified with a statement that "although I have not seen the sky to confirm, I have been informed that the sky is red".

    Thus, by speaking something as a fact without first hand knowledge and or verification, you are "in the wrong". As other posters have pointed out, this means you are likely incompetent. Therefore, you are either a liar - or incompetent. Neither of which is a desirable trait.
    07-18-13 02:08 PM
  7. 9Jer99's Avatar
    The promise was nothing more than stalling for time to dump inventory.
    If you purchase another BlackBerry device you get what you deserve.
    If you do I hope it works out for you.
    You have been warned.
    07-18-13 02:13 PM
  8. jpash549's Avatar
    Blackberry made a bad decision in designing the Phone version of the Playbook. They put in a faster processor but did not increase the RAM to take into account the extra burden of the phone processing and possibly also the growing size of RAM required to run later versions of Android. The current PB with 2.1 gets clogged fairly easily when running Android apps and others and starts dropping applications. Maybe if the phone version had been able to run BB10 it could also have been supplied to the wifi PB with the phone overhead stuff stripped out. Or maybe the programming had gotten so tightly integrated that it would be difficult to strip out features. All features in Apple's iOS7 are apparently not going to be available on older device. But Apple apparently planned for that.

    Blackberry may not owe PB owners an uprade but, if only for ethical and reputation reasons should provide an adequate explanation for why the promise was broken. Ugrades to browsers and other features which can reasonably be supplied should be done.
    07-18-13 02:32 PM
  9. neefer's Avatar
    If it was not false at the time he said it, it is not a lie. That's my point, and nothing more.
    By any chance are you a politician? The truth is the truth, as long as it was the truth at the time?
    It's a simple "usage of the English language" thing... "misled", "misinformed", ill-advised", "overly-ambitious" and a number of other words or phrases are far more appropriate for this particular situation, absent proof of an intent to deceive -- and frankly I am completely puzzled by assertions to the contrary!

    If I tell you today that I'm healthy -- but I get the flu next month -- did I lie?

    If I tell you I plan to be home from work at 6pm, leave at my normal time which has historically always gotten me home prior to 6pm, and then there's an overturned big rig closing all 3 lanes of traffic on the freeway, and I'm between exits with nowhere to go -- so I end up being 2 hours late -- did I lie?

    If I told you I lived in Colorado, but next year I moved to Texas -- did I lie?

    If I told you I lived in New Mexico, and had absolutely zero plans to ever leave New Mexico, and tomorrow I found out my employer was shutting down all operations in New Mexico, and moving us all to Arizona -- did I lie?

    If I tell you my factory in Puerto Rico intends to produce X number of widgets this year -- and then there's a giant earthquake that destroys the factory -- did I lie?

    If you told me today that your wife wasn't pregnant, and that you weren't actively working on her becoming so -- then tomorrow she tells you the stick turned blue -- did you lie?

    If I tell you right now that I still have one living grandparent, and as I press send on this message I get a phone call telling me she fell down the stairs and hour ago and perished -- did I lie?

    Seriously -- I don't get it! To claim "yes" to any of the above makes absolutely zero sense to me! Thus my assertion that absent an intent to deceive, there is no "lie".

    For one to feel otherwise must make for a very unhappy and miserable life with everyone "lying" to you all the time!

    It's actually kinda sad with all the continued vein-popping blood-pressure spiking "TH is a dirty rotten lying rat b@$****" emotional reactions, and seemingly-choosing to take what happened as an intentional slight directed personally at yourselves... when the only evidence you have is your own upset at the situation -- which just gets perpetuated amongst yourselves into a viscous never-ending cycle with no positive net result.

    But this is yesterday's argument. We've already determined that a number of you are set in your ways and insist that a lie can be retroactive. *shrug*
    Hirazi Blue and Thunderbuck like this.
    07-18-13 03:15 PM
  10. tarektoverso's Avatar
    I am really disappointed by this insulting attitude.
    No one has forced him to make a pledge in 2012 and in the early 2013 that the Playbook will receive the BB10. and now he tries to convince us that his broken oath is for our own good ? come on!

    It is a shame...

    Just give me a performing Browser and then go to Hell BB.
    FF22 and gothamsreckoning like this.
    07-18-13 03:17 PM
  11. amazinglygraceless's Avatar
    Oh lord please make this nonsense stop
    07-18-13 03:20 PM
  12. OldSkoolVWLover's Avatar
    [threads merged]
    07-18-13 03:28 PM
  13. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    I just hope Blackberry bankrupts. There are other really good smartphone companies out there that can easily replace it.
    Sure... because I know a very good company that can replace their market of physical keyboards.... NOT

    Sent from my BB10 smartphone.
    neefer likes this.
    07-18-13 03:38 PM
  14. RJB55's Avatar
    Oh lord please make this nonsense stop
    Maybe we could all gather around a pyre of flaming PlayBooks and sing Kumbaya until we are all one in spirit with TH?
    07-18-13 04:11 PM
  15. msps's Avatar
    It's a simple "usage of the English language" thing... "misled", "misinformed", ill-advised", "overly-ambitious" and a number of other words or phrases are far more appropriate for this particular situation, absent proof of an intent to deceive -- and frankly I am completely puzzled by assertions to the contrary!
    If I tell you today that I'm healthy -- but I get the flu next month -- did I lie?
    Thor said "I am healthy and getting better when he had a flue"


    If I tell you I plan to be home from work at 6pm, leave at my normal time which has historically always gotten me home prior to 6pm, and then there's an overturned big rig closing all 3 lanes of traffic on the freeway, and I'm between exits with nowhere to go -- so I end up being 2 hours late -- did I lie?
    Thor was stuck in traffic being already an hour late and claimed "I'll be on time"

    If I told you I lived in Colorado, but next year I moved to Texas -- did I lie?
    Thor said he was moving to Texas and then sold his Texas apartment and bought a new house in Colorado

    If I told you I lived in New Mexico, and had absolutely zero plans to ever leave New Mexico, and tomorrow I found out my employer was shutting down all operations in New Mexico, and moving us all to Arizona -- did I lie?
    Thor said "I am not changing my plans to stay in New Mexico" after he ordered a moving company to transport his stuff to Arizona

    If I tell you my factory in Puerto Rico intends to produce X number of widgets this year -- and then there's a giant earthquake that destroys the factory -- did I lie?
    Thor said it intends to produce X number after the earthquake destroyed his supplier factory

    If you told me today that your wife wasn't pregnant, and that you weren't actively working on her becoming so -- then tomorrow she tells you the stick turned blue -- did you lie?
    Thor said he'd be a father but in fact he was not sleeping with his wife for months


    Seriously -- I don't get it! To claim "yes" to any of the above makes absolutely zero sense to me! Thus my assertion that absent an intent to deceive, there is no "lie".



    I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me.
    I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.
    I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never.
    Bill Clinton
    playbook_swiper1 and bodjor like this.
    07-18-13 04:31 PM
  16. RJB55's Avatar
    I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me.
    I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.
    I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never.
    Bill Clinton
    No! I won't have that. Comparing Heins to Clinton? Sorry but I just won't have it; Heins is a much younger man.
    07-18-13 04:56 PM
  17. FF22's Avatar
    Yes, as I say, the decision to pull the plug likely came in April, and that's when they stopped discussing the upgrade. Yes, you can make the point that from that time forward they were WITHHOLDING an announcement. They did say, though, that they were "re-evaluating" the strategy, so that could at least have been taken as a hint. Would it have made that big a difference to you if you'd heard in April or May that the update wasn't coming? Would you really have been less angry or disappointed?

    Corporate communications can be a seemingly-nonsensical thing. BB likely wanted to hold off on announcing the change as long as they could manage just for the sake of avoiding bad news during the BB10 launch quarter. On the scale of corporate ethical breaches this ranks pretty low.
    Or to sell pb's to those who still expected bb10. Just as easy to believe at this point.
    playbook_swiper1 likes this.
    07-18-13 05:37 PM
  18. neefer's Avatar
    Thor said "I am healthy and getting better when he had a flue"
    Thor was stuck in traffic being already an hour late and claimed "I'll be on time"
    Thor said he was moving to Texas and then sold his Texas apartment and bought a new house in Colorado
    Thor said "I am not changing my plans to stay in New Mexico" after he ordered a moving company to transport his stuff to Arizona
    Thor said it intends to produce X number after the earthquake destroyed his supplier factory
    Thor said he'd be a father but in fact he was not sleeping with his wife for months
    This is why I have been saying "absent evidence of an intent to deceive". Yours are all examples of statements contrary to the actual facts at the time the statements were made. Thus lies.

    My examples were of statements made in agreement with the facts at the time the statements were made, ergo: Not lies. :-) A later change in circumstance does not retroactively turn a truthful-at-the-time statement magically into a lie.

    Since we have no evidence of an intent to deceive, claiming we were "lied to" is a stretch. We have no proof that when the statements were made, they were not indeed truthful at that moment in time. Granted we also have no proof that they WERE indeed truthful at the time the statements were made.

    I guess my ultimate point is: words have power. And y'all are using words to keep whipping yourselves into a perpetual frothing frenzy -- for no other purpose that I can see, other than the sake of being in a frothing frenzy.

    Your messaging to one another is "D00d those r@t b@$***** totally lied to us, intentionally deceived us, stole our money, were never actually even doing any of the work they said they were doing, knew a long time ago that we were not going to get what we were promised but kept promising it anyway" blah blah blah. All of this absent any proof (that I've seen) showing any single one of these claims to actually be true. That's emotional, not rational... and while perfectly reasonable for the first week or two... at this point it's kinda approaching the "conspiracy theory" level, the more it feeds upon itself.

    You're pissed, I get that. I'm entitled to be just as pissed as any of the rest of you -- seeing as I paid full retail price for a 64GB PB... and later almost full retail price for a second one. And if we get actual proof that they gave up long before they let on, and they intentionally kept telling us that all was well, in some kind of scheme to clear out inventory -- I'm totally there beside you, waving the torches and pitchforks and yelling "liar" at them.

    But absent that proof -- even though I'm out just as much money as any of the rest of you (in fact, more money than those of you who only have one PB) -- I choose to see things from the rational side of the coin, and not throw about loaded words like "liar" and "incompetent" and all the other emotionally charged words you're feeding each other with in order to keep the anger going. Some claim it's just semantics, but it's not. Words have nuance and underlying meaning. And y'all are choosing to use the most negative ones possible, rather than seeking out the most accurate ones possible in an attempt to actually achieve something other than an unending downward spiral.

    If even half of the totally pissed people redirected even half of that anger into action, then maybe you might be able to make something happen and get an update delivered to the PB. But based on how few messages are in Victor's thread attempting to do that very thing... it seems like y'all really don't want a solution -- you just want to complain.

    (And as an aside -- I still don't see what is so unrealistic about sending our PBs in for an upgrade. I worked for a company that found itself in this VERY position -- of having the latest software upgrade, for one of our enterprise-class appliances, exceed the space available on the older units. We solved the problem by offering three choices: don't upgrade; send the device in for a factory-upgrade at a reasonable fee for the service; and a do-it-yourself kit.)

    (And it's also probably why all you "liar" people tick me off so much. Unless you work in the industry, you really have no freaking clue what it's like to be a worker bee, busting your rump, working copious amounts of unpaid overtime, painstakingly exploring every conceivable possibility, hitting all sorts of technical roadblocks due to inherent limitations that just cannot be worked around no matter how hard you try, or how creative and out-of-the-box you get --- to ultimately coming to the conclusion that it just cannot be done given the limitations in front of you -- be that time, money, and/or resources. BBRY obviously came to a similar conclusion, and determined that all roads lead to nowhere good. If y'all really give a rat's patootie about the end result, then get over onto Victor's thread and try to come up with solutions and build a collective voice to show BBRY a road they hadn't considered, or considered but prematurely discarded.)

    (Long story even longer: seriously folks, p00p or get off the pot. What do you feel you're actually accomplishing by perpetual venting for the sake of venting? Actions speak louder than words. And so far it's only Victor and a small handful of others actually attempting any "action"!)
    Chaddface and Thunderbuck like this.
    07-18-13 07:13 PM
  19. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    No! I won't have that. Comparing Heins to Clinton? Sorry but I just won't have it; Heins is a much younger man.
    But we can't verify if he had a sexual relationship with the devil in the blue dress.
    07-18-13 08:13 PM
  20. gothamsreckoning's Avatar
    I hope BB as a company dies a painful death unless they give us sufficient in return.
    07-18-13 08:58 PM
  21. costas1966's Avatar
    Lie is a very strong word to use. Did BlackBerry have intentions of bringing BB10 to the PlayBook yes. Were they ultimately able to? No. This does not constitute a lie, rather a failure in their engineering teams and a failure to communicate this to their customers. Should they and could they have handled it better? Yes absolutely.
    The absolutely most accurate description. Now, maybe the haters can give it a bit of thought and realize that being let down due to technical and business decisions does not constitute "lies". Simply the fact that they tried and couldn't make it happen. Lets have the hate die already.
    neefer likes this.
    07-18-13 09:06 PM
  22. costas1966's Avatar
    So they aren't liars they're just failures? Is this really better?
    Have you ever tried and failed? Have you ever tried and succeeded? This is business, and there is no reward without risk, and no success without failure.

    I would rather back a company who tried and failed, and will eventually succeed, than a company without innovation or vision.

    Any day.
    neefer likes this.
    07-18-13 09:11 PM
  23. costas1966's Avatar
    It is more akin to this.

    You tell me I am getting BlackBerry pie for dessert (All PlayBooks will get BB10)
    You burn the pie horribly while cooking it and decide it cannot be served in such a fashion (BB10 does NOT run anywhere close to well on the PlayBooks)
    You tell me that you cannot offer me BlackBerry pie (Killing BB10 development for PlayBooks)

    You did not lie, circumstances changed. It was not your intention to go back on what you said, there was no malice of forethought. It is not an ethical dilemma at all.
    This. /\
    07-18-13 09:14 PM
  24. Jack_Yugis's Avatar
    So sad for me
    07-18-13 09:14 PM
  25. costas1966's Avatar
    oh lord please make this nonsense stop
    hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! My thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!!
    07-18-13 09:30 PM
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