08-29-13 11:19 AM
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  1. OMGitworks's Avatar
    If you tell me that I WILL be getting blackberry pie for dessert, you sent your staff to the grocery store to buy supplies for blackberry pie, they were currently in the kitchen sifting flower and cracking eggs at the time you told me about your plans for blackberry pie, and based on that knowledge you fully intended to give me blackberry pie for dessert -- but then when you took it out of the oven it fell on the floor leaving you the choice of giving me Floor Pie, or No Pie... and so decide that floor pie would not be the best plan, especially since you're attempting to maintain your reputation as a baker, thus you choose to give me No Pie because you don't want me getting on the internet and tell everyone what a horrible baker you are while bashing you for the crap-a$$ Floor Pie you served me -- are you a liar?

    Grow the bleep up, people.

    I have a PB too. I paid full retail price for the 64GB version. I fully expected BB10 to come to the PB. I eagerly awaited the Q10, and also bought BB stock based on my experience with and love of the PB.

    But BB did NOT "lie" to me, or any of you egocentric crybabies.

    The next person who claims BB "lied" about BB10 on the PB had better accompany their post with details about their vast career experience in software and hardware development lifecycles.

    Every time you cry "lie, lie, lie" you just sound like a bunch of ignorant children who (a) have yet to grow up enough to fully grasp proper usage of the English language, and (b) have zero clue about how the real world works.

    If anyone needs proof that BB is no longer "just for business users", all they need to do is read any recent PB thread on CB for the vast amount of proof that there are plenty of people with no business sense using BB products.

    lie
    noun
    1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
    2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression

    verb (used without object)
    1. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib.
    2. to express what is false; convey a false impression.

    So please, for the love of gawd, show me exactly where BB intentionally made a false statement with deliberate intent to deceive. And, as they say, "video, or it never happened". If you can't produce such proof, then pick a new word. Because "lie" is the wrong one.

    They had plans, they made their best efforts, and came to the difficult conclusion that it was a futile pursuit given their current resources and overall corporate roadmap -- and then they TOLD us soon after making that business decision.

    That does not a "lie" make.

    So find a new horse to beat. This one died weeks ago, and continuing to beat it just makes you look foolish.
    One big apology for BBRY. I have a PB I hardly use. I doubt I would use it more if BB10 came to it. I don't understand how angry people are getting BUT they did, UNEQUIVOCALLY PROMISE to bring BB10 to the PB, straight from TH's lips. Then it didn't happen. Maybe breaking a promise is not lying, but is sucks all the same. When he made the promise he should have been positive he could deliver. He didn't and that is too bad. Sorry but when a CEO of a major corporation tells customers something is going to happen, he ought to be accurate about it.
    FF22, arvind1983 and bodjor like this.
    07-17-13 03:52 PM
  2. ppeters914's Avatar
    So, who wants to sell me their PB for $10?
    07-17-13 03:52 PM
  3. Gooseberry Falls's Avatar
    You omitted one definition of the word lie from your insulting, condescending rant:

    noun
    3. an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.

    If Thorsten Heins was not 100% certain that BB10 would be coming to the PlayBook when he stated that it would, he made an inaccurate or false statement, which by definition is a lie.

    If he was led to believe that BB10 would be coming to the PlayBook, then he was lied to and perpetuated that lie without knowing it.


    If BlackBerry didn't lie, as you claim, then they are utterly incompetent. I'm not sure that explanation is any more desirable.
    This is what I can't reconcile with. I don't care if it is a lie or not. But his January statement made it pretty clear that PB would be getting BB10, not a conditional "if" but a roadmap "when". So taking into account that BB10 was in the making for 2 years and was ready to be launched on phones in a couple of months, it is very hard to believe that BBRY had not tested it all on the PB to determine feasibility somewhere along the way. It just seemed like it was a complete surprise to them that it would not run on a PB. It just boggles my mind that BB10 was not developed with the PB even in the back of their mind.

    So if BBRY just released a simple statement that explained all that, I think everyone would be OK.
    OMGitworks, duty14, FF22 and 5 others like this.
    07-17-13 03:57 PM
  4. OMGitworks's Avatar
    This is what I can't reconcile with. I don't care if it is a lie or not. But his January statement made it pretty clear that PB would be getting BB10, not a conditional "if" but a roadmap "when". So taking into account that BB10 was in the making for 2 years and was ready to be launched on phones in a couple of months, it is very hard to believe that BBRY had not tested it all on the PB to determine feasibility somewhere along the way. It just seemed like it was a complete surprise to them that it would not run on a PB. It just boggles my mind that BB10 was not developed with the PB even in the back of their mind.
    This . How a company the size of BBRY could be so inept is scary. I guess coming from the e-mail device/handset company who released a tablet without native e-mail we should have known better.
    07-17-13 04:03 PM
  5. OMGitworks's Avatar
    So, who wants to sell me their PB for $10?
    Will you pay for shipping.
    07-17-13 04:04 PM
  6. neefer's Avatar
    You omitted one definition of the word lie from your insulting, condescending rant:
    W00t! I scored "insulting" AND "condescending" -- I was only going for "condescending"


    noun
    3. an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.

    If Thorsten Heins was not 100% certain that BB10 would be coming to the PlayBook when he stated that it would, he made an inaccurate or false statement, which by definition is a lie.
    You never answered my question -- If I fully intended to make you a blackberry pie, had my staff working in the kitchen to make it happen, and then dropped it on the floor -- did I lie to you about my intentions for making you a blackberry pie?


    If he was led to believe that BB10 would be coming to the PlayBook, then he was lied to and perpetuated that lie without knowing it.
    If the development team knew they were in over their head, and didn't let on -- that's on them.
    I will concede to "perpetuated a lie".
    But I doubt anyone can prove that TH himself knowingly perpetuated a falsehood. There is always uncertainty in business when one is lacking unlimited funding and unlimited resources -- as is usually the case.


    If BlackBerry didn't lie, as you claim, then they are utterly incompetent. I'm not sure that explanation is any more desirable.
    You (and a bunch of other people here) seriously have no clue how business works -- specifically the tech industry -- do you? No company is 100% sure about anything until the product is actually released to the customer. That's just reality. There are too many variables involved in the development process.

    However I am open to being proven wrong, and shown the error of my ways. So if I am mistaken, please provide me some examples of when a business was 100% certain -- mid-development -- that something would actually end up released. As well as examples of tech companies who have never in their history missed a deliverable and/or have been unable to deliver as intended. I know of none.

    And if we want to mince words... what were TH's exact words? Did he say WE would get BB10 on the PB? Or just that "BB10 was coming to the PB"? Or that they fully intended to bring BB10 to the PB? Technically, if BB10 is indeed running, no matter how crappy, on at least one PB somewhere on the planet -- he didn't lie.
    07-17-13 04:13 PM
  7. lovemyplaybook's Avatar
    I just sold my 16gb playbook for $200.00 on Craigslist. After reading today that there will be no more upgrades, I feel much better of my decision. On to my next non blackberry toy.
    bodjor likes this.
    07-17-13 04:14 PM
  8. FF22's Avatar
    Don't know why this BB story sounds similar to Palm and their webOs software... And look what it has become with Palm and their webOs.... They have even now fanboys and people who hope.. and for what?

    Ok i get it... let's say that they had good intentions but were shocked that Playbook couldn't handle BB10 OS because it only has 1 Gb. OK let's say we buy that.
    But after 2 years of expecting to get a better product and services like they promised.... now they tell us they won't even support the PB at all with nothing? No patches, no updates, no apps, no support... That is outrageous for me and shameless for a company that promised quality and care for their customers...

    Shame on you BB...
    P.S. If we don't say anything probably they think that they can get away easy... We at least have to let them know if we care about BB that this is unacceptable and their customers are unhappy. ( and who knows - People also raged after this years E3 about the Microsoft Xbox One policies and after those many complaints , they changed their policies.-maybe we have a voice and maybe we can change something...- better than doing nothing and accept their mockery or false promises or whatever you want to call it.. and smile and say to our selfs that's the way it is , we don't count, thanks RIM for 2 great years and your beautiful product and software ).
    PRECISELY. They paused development of OS2 fixes and enhancements because they were going to move the pb to BB10. Now that they've dropped that idea, they've dropped what originally was also promised.
    07-17-13 04:24 PM
  9. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    Will you pay for shipping.
    I'll give you $10 for the PlayBook at $20 for the shipping if it works fine.
    07-17-13 04:28 PM
  10. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    I just sold my 16gb playbook for $200.00 on Craigslist. After reading today that there will be no more upgrades, I feel much better of my decision. On to my next non blackberry toy.
    Congrats on being able to sell yours for the price that I paid for my 64 GB model 18 months ago!
    lovemyplaybook likes this.
    07-17-13 04:29 PM
  11. ubeda92's Avatar
    lie
    noun
    1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
    2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression

    verb (used without object)
    1. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib.
    2. to express what is false; convey a false impression.

    .
    According to the definition you provided, this Thorsten character lied.
    playbook_swiper1 likes this.
    07-17-13 04:35 PM
  12. tr00don's Avatar
    Yes, so yesterday I sold my last (of three) playbooks. As one of the ~1M suckers who have purchased PlayBooks, I have asked for an Alpha BB10 device for development purposes -- and got no response. Think that one year ago I was "evangelising" BlackBerry in my workplace... Good bye, BBRY!
    07-17-13 04:36 PM
  13. lovemyplaybook's Avatar
    Well...I did pay $499.00 at launch. Anyway, it was great when it was fresh and new.
    07-17-13 04:42 PM
  14. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    You omitted one definition of the word lie from your insulting, condescending rant:

    noun
    3. an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.

    If Thorsten Heins was not 100% certain that BB10 would be coming to the PlayBook when he stated that it would, he made an inaccurate or false statement, which by definition is a lie.

    If he was led to believe that BB10 would be coming to the PlayBook, then he was lied to and perpetuated that lie without knowing it.
    There is actually a huge difference between being mistaken and being intentionally misleading.

    An "inaccurate statement" is only a "lie" if the person who makes that statement knows it's inaccurate at the time he makes it.

    At a certain point this spring, BlackBerry stopped talking about the PlayBook completely (aside from the odd tweet from branch offices, which were likely sent in good faith but in hindsight were clearly mistaken). My educated guess was that they stopped discussing the PB update only after they had made the decision not to offer it.

    IN OTHER WORDS, at no time did BB affirm commitment to a PlayBook BB10 update after making the decision to cancel it. Ergo, no, not a lie.

    If BlackBerry didn't lie, as you claim, then they are utterly incompetent. I'm not sure that explanation is any more desirable.
    I wouldn't go that far personally, but I can understand why someone might judge them "incompetent" for making a commitment they ultimately couldn't keep.
    07-17-13 04:45 PM
  15. k8bushlover's Avatar
    And if we want to mince words... what were TH's exact words? Did he say WE would get BB10 on the PB? Or just that "BB10 was coming to the PB"? Or that they fully intended to bring BB10 to the PB? Technically, if BB10 is indeed running, no matter how crappy, on at least one PB somewhere on the planet -- he didn't lie.
    Here's one source, http://www.berryreview.com/2013/01/3...iew-with-cnbc/

    As quoted in the article: "We will provide BlackBerry 10 software updates for all of the PlayBooks that are out there. So, the wifi and the 4G versions, they will all be upgraded to BlackBerry 10." at about 6:43 in the video.

    I know in German, "will" can mean "want" -- maybe he didn't lie, in German. Vielleicht he really, really vanted to.
    neefer and tekware like this.
    07-17-13 04:46 PM
  16. playbook_swiper1's Avatar
    It is more akin to this.

    You tell me I am getting BlackBerry pie for dessert (All PlayBooks will get BB10)
    You burn the pie horribly while cooking it and decide it cannot be served in such a fashion (BB10 does NOT run anywhere close to well on the PlayBooks)
    You tell me that you cannot offer me BlackBerry pie (Killing BB10 development for PlayBooks)

    You did not lie, circumstances changed. It was not your intention to go back on what you said, there was no malice of forethought. It is not an ethical dilemma at all.
    I can still offer you Blackberry pie in the future (further delays, but still maintaining my committment), or offer to provide you the filling without the burnt crust (patches, updates that CAN be fixed on the product) with an apology, or suitable replacement of blueberry pie (incentives, upgrades, buybacks).

    If I was a pie shop and I gave you the old - well i burnt it so F.Off, I probably wouldn't be making pies much longer. Such as it is, this is what is happening to BBRY.

    And yes, it is business ethics. Don't commit if you can't perform.
    Last edited by playbook_swiper1; 07-17-13 at 05:06 PM.
    07-17-13 04:55 PM
  17. neefer's Avatar
    So you will have a product that is forgotten by all and will do just basic stuff on it and you think our waiting and hope for a better promised product and you don't think we have the right be disappointed and frustrated and that we need to grow up?
    All of us PB owners have every right to be disappointed and frustrated! Especially those of us who paid full retail price for the highest-end model and were getting it specifically for the Bridge features!

    My gripe is with the complete disconnect from the realities of business with all the "EHMRAGERD DEY LIED!" histrionics.

    Yes, it sucks that there is no BB10 on the PB for us, and even worse now with apparently no more "regular" PB updates for it either. But I'd rather they make this sucky-for-us business decision, and stay alive as a company and grow -- than to see them completely drive themselves into the ground trying to get BB10 to run acceptably on the PB, to the detriment of other products and long term growth and success of the company. I'd rather see them obsolete the PB, rather than put out a product that is going to accomplish little more than giving the naysayers / stock analysts something to point to and claim "same old blackberry!"

    I have yet to see anyone provide a convincing argument showing that TH acted with malice aforethought, and that BB did not fully intend -- and sincerely want -- to deliver as stated for us PB folks... but ultimately couldn't. That's not incompetence or dishonesty. That's not a "lie". That's business. At a certain point you have to stop pouring good money after bad, and redirect your energies to projects with a brighter outlook for long term benefit.

    I'd like to hear from anyone who'd rather have BB10 and/or regular updates on their PB, and BB out of business -- rather than an obsolete tablet and BB still in business and thriving.... I stand by my assertion that all this incessant "they lied" stuff has devolved into nothing more than a bunch of short-sighted, childish, foot stomping. It's been nearly a month now. We need to move past this and get on to more productive things, like what Victor(?) is attempting: http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...thread-829470/
    07-17-13 04:57 PM
  18. neefer's Avatar
    There is actually a huge difference between being mistaken and being intentionally misleading.

    An "inaccurate statement" is only a "lie" if the person who makes that statement knows it's inaccurate at the time he makes it.

    At a certain point this spring, BlackBerry stopped talking about the PlayBook completely (aside from the odd tweet from branch offices, which were likely sent in good faith but in hindsight were clearly mistaken). My educated guess was that they stopped discussing the PB update only after they had made the decision not to offer it.

    IN OTHER WORDS, at no time did BB affirm commitment to a PlayBook BB10 update after making the decision to cancel it. Ergo, no, not a lie.
    This. +100000000000000
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    07-17-13 05:00 PM
  19. playbook_swiper1's Avatar
    lie
    noun
    1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
    2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression

    verb (used without object)
    1. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib.
    2. to express what is false; convey a false impression.
    A false impression indeed. Playbooks "WILL" be updated to BB10. Search the forums for he video yourself, tired of handfeeding.

    NEXT!
    FF22 likes this.
    07-17-13 05:00 PM
  20. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    You never answered my question -- If I fully intended to make you a blackberry pie, had my staff working in the kitchen to make it happen, and then dropped it on the floor -- did I lie to you about my intentions for making you a blackberry pie?
    Intent is irrelevant. All I know is you promised me a blackberry pie and did not deliver me a blackberry pie. If you were not 100% certain that you could deliver on that promise, you should never have made it in the first place.

    If the development team knew they were in over their head, and didn't let on -- that's on them.
    I will concede to "perpetuated a lie".
    But I doubt anyone can prove that TH himself knowingly perpetuated a falsehood. There is always uncertainty in business when one is lacking unlimited funding and unlimited resources -- as is usually the case.
    Intent is irrelevant. Whether TH knew he was perpetuating a falsehood or not is irrelevant. He should have kept his mouth shut if he wasn't absolutely certain it would happen. If he was absolutely certain it would happen, then BlackBerry is utterly incompetent and incapable of delivering on their promises.

    You (and a bunch of other people here) seriously have no clue how business works -- specifically the tech industry -- do you? No company is 100% sure about anything until the product is actually released to the customer. That's just reality. There are too many variables involved in the development process.

    However I am open to being proven wrong, and shown the error of my ways. So if I am mistaken, please provide me some examples of when a business was 100% certain -- mid-development -- that something would actually end up released. As well as examples of tech companies who have never in their history missed a deliverable and/or have been unable to deliver as intended. I know of none.
    If this was the first time BlackBerry "missed a deliverable", I'd be more inclined to let it slide. But this is just the latest in a long train of "missed deliverables", broken promises, delays, miscommunications, misstatements, etc.

    Some of us have come to the realization that it is because we keep looking the other way that BlackBerry remains in this rut. The company needs to fundamentally reinvent itself and change the way it is doing things if it hopes to survive, and the PlayBook's demise is a strong indication that it's business as usual at BlackBerry.

    And if we want to mince words... what were TH's exact words? Did he say WE would get BB10 on the PB? Or just that "BB10 was coming to the PB"? Or that they fully intended to bring BB10 to the PB? Technically, if BB10 is indeed running, no matter how crappy, on at least one PB somewhere on the planet -- he didn't lie.
    TH on CNBC, January 30th 2013: "We will continue to be in the tablet market. Making money with a tablet is difficult. We will provide BlackBerry 10 software updates for all of the PlayBooks that are out there. So, the wi-fi and the 4G versions, they will all be upgraded to BlackBerry 10." (Source link with video.)

    I'm not sure how you can interpret that to mean they "might" bring BB10 to the PB or "intended" to bring BB10 to the PB. Thorsten Heins clearly stated that BB10 would be coming to all versions of the PB.

    Again, either he lied (or perpetuated a lie), or his company is utterly incompetent.
    07-17-13 05:02 PM
  21. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    There is actually a huge difference between being mistaken and being intentionally misleading.

    An "inaccurate statement" is only a "lie" if the person who makes that statement knows it's inaccurate at the time he makes it.

    At a certain point this spring, BlackBerry stopped talking about the PlayBook completely (aside from the odd tweet from branch offices, which were likely sent in good faith but in hindsight were clearly mistaken). My educated guess was that they stopped discussing the PB update only after they had made the decision not to offer it.

    IN OTHER WORDS, at no time did BB affirm commitment to a PlayBook BB10 update after making the decision to cancel it. Ergo, no, not a lie.
    Say I am in a room with no windows. You come in and tell me the sky outside is red. It is actually blue. I email my friend and tell him the sky outside is red, fully believing it to be the truth. But it is not the truth. It is a lie. I did not intend to deceive or mislead my friend, but that does not negate the fact that I told him a lie. Where the lie originated or the intent of the person telling the lie does not change the fact that it is a lie.
    07-17-13 05:18 PM
  22. DigitalMadness's Avatar
    It Is What It Is!!!

    The PB is still very comparable to many of the high-end tablets out there (minus the apps, of course). I get plenty of usage from my PB every day. I would like to see some sort of good will offering from BB, but the PB is a solid device and I plan to ride it until the wheels fall off.
    Is that like saying I have a great car but don't have the fuel to run it.

    Posted from my ??????
    07-17-13 05:24 PM
  23. neefer's Avatar
    According to the definition you provided, this Thorsten character lied.

    Apparently, your reading comprehension does not rise to the first grade level.

    Many words, horrendous logic, and stupid conclusions on your part.
    If it was not false at the time he said it, it is not a lie. That's my point, and nothing more.

    A bunch of people are ascribing intent that cannot be proven. If BB fully intended to deliver as promised, and they were actively working to do so -- at the time they told us they were actively working on the project and fully intended to deliver it -- it was not a "lie".

    Truthfulness of a statement at the time of utterance is a single, fixed moment in time. The facts of that moment do not change based on future events. The statement may later prove to have been ambitious, short-sighted, over-promised, ill-informed, or a number of other things. But one cannot retroactively alter the truthfulness of a single moment in time. Ergo: not a lie. That is all.

    I'm not defending their actions or the end result, and personally think they were overly ambitious and never should have uttered words that led people to believe BB10 on the PB was an inevitability. The disclaimers about "forward looking statements", attached to every business press release, exist for a reason.

    If anyone produces internal memos showing they knew with certainty that BB10 on the PB was a bust -- with TH then later making statements to the contrary... then yes, that would make them a bunch of lying b@$*****.

    But to besmirch TH / BB absent facts, is nothing more than an emotional response, and serves no positive purpose here or anywhere else. (And I would even go as far as to say it serves an overall negative purpose, if our community desire is to support and promote BB in the eyes of "outsiders".)

    I think we should hold ourselves to the same standards we hold BB. If we expect factual, honest, fully-informed statements from them, without said statements being over-inflated with poorly supported optimism, or emotional attachment to the end result -- then don't we own them the same courtesy of making factual, honest, fully-informed statements about them that are not colored by emotional attachment?

    (Or to put it another way: absent facts, aren't the people crying "liar" the real liars -- and thus reflect poorly on all of us if we don't challenge those assertions? So consider said assertions challenged. )

    Anyhow, lunch break over, so carry on with your regularly-scheduled ranting.
    Last edited by neefer; 07-17-13 at 05:46 PM.
    07-17-13 05:36 PM
  24. neefer's Avatar
    Intent is irrelevant
    Aaah. See, this is where we disagree, and are not likely to have a meeting-of-the-minds. Intent is entirely relevant, and the core of my point-of-view on the matter.

    So carry on. I've said my peace.
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    07-17-13 05:38 PM
  25. Matt J's Avatar
    How can iOS7 run on 512 MB and the "super efficient" BB10 can't do it on double that? I call them on the technical limitations.

    My friend at RIM has BB10 running on his PlayBook "quite well".
    FF22, bodjor and arvind1983 like this.
    07-17-13 05:38 PM
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