10-22-14 09:21 AM
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  1. truenorth179's Avatar
    Hi Crackberries.

    Ive had my passport for two days now, and at this point I think I will return it.

    My previous BB was a OS7 Torch and email for the device was handled by the Blackberry Internet Service (BIS). When I worked at RIM it was called the Blackberry Web Client (BWC). I use a small ISP that runs email servers very well, but they are a small outfit. Ive had an email address with them since 1994 and I dont want to give that up. They run an SMTP/POP3 architecture and they refuse to hold more than a small amount of mail in the interval between it arriving and the customer removing it with a mail client. When email arrived at my ISP, it was filtered for spam and viruses, put in my POP3 mailbox and also forwarded to the BIS server. The BIS system filtered the inbound emails using filters that I could configure, and then forwarded those that survived to the handheld. Perfect. Really old emails on the Torch rolled over and were deleted. Perfect.

    My desktop machine fetched emails from the POP3 server with Thunderbird and then they were deleted from my ISPs server. Perfect. My ISP held nothing, my desktop machine held everything and my Torch held what I wanted it to.

    BB10 doesnt support this at all. My passport has no emails on it because it mirrors my ISPs server which is always empty.
    I cant believe what Im seeing. No push email, no email address and no filters with BB10. How can the Blackberry name be on this thing?

    My ISP suggested that I set up an IMAP database with Google and use that. Giving your email database to Google is also giving it to the NSA. The more we give to Google, the worse we are. I don't know how small ISPs who are faced with a much more complex email environment are going to cope . Not all of them can afford the cost and management time for terabyte email databases.

    Anybody have any insight.?
    gwfbc likes this.
    10-19-14 02:48 PM
  2. redlightblinking's Avatar
    NO phone will do what BIS did. So returning your Passport won't really help unless you hang on to your BBOS device.

    You can simply replace BIS by signing up for outlook.com and having your emails forwarded there instead. They use exchange server for Push to your BlackBerry. Or Gmail for IMAP push.

    You might not get all the filtering you had before (or maybe you will, not sure).

    Sorry to tell you, but the NSA is watching your pop email now just as much as they are watching Gmail or anything else.
    Carjackd and Xenolock like this.
    10-19-14 02:55 PM
  3. blueburk's Avatar
    the question is how long will blackberry support BIS sooner or later it will be replaced with something else or gone completely. since as u stated no os 10 phones support that old technology, my personal 2 cents move on blackberry pasport is the future and will only get better. once upon a time there was blackberry email service that went by by a long time ago.

    posted from the canadian north via my passport
    10-19-14 03:00 PM
  4. redlightblinking's Avatar
    BIS was, and still is, great. It was created by BB to give them the famous "push" email that nobody else could do. But then along came free services that gave real time push including gmail, hotmail, outlook.com, etc. Iphone and others can get real time emails by using these or other corporate level systems.

    Because BB10 was trying to be compatible with all the other phones and how they get email directly from accounts (instead of through BB servers) they stopped including BIS with BB10.

    No, you're not secure from the NSA, but unless you have your email set COMPLETELY inside an encrypted system, you are exposed. This would mean having your email address be the actual address of your device, which could not be shared anywhere else or even saved for longer than a few weeks. And, unless your communicating with another person on BES or BIS (using the direct method I just described), somewhere in the path is not secure from the NSA. (Just recently officials announced the capture of Mexican drug lords, and showed their older blackberries that were being used. They were most likely using BBM or sending PIN messages or using email directly from device to device....all encrypted via BB.)

    Using outlook.com instead of BIS is actually, in some ways, a better solution since you can have your sent messages from other devices visible on all devices, as well as have a web based alternative to viewing emails. BIS was just a push to your device with some filtering pre-device.
    10-19-14 03:09 PM
  5. bobshine's Avatar
    OP, you really have to eventually take the leap... before its too late cause BIS will eventually cease to exist. We should be grateful that BlackBerry still support it, but one day they won't.

    No other phone or service did of will do what BIS was doing... so you're gonna have to adapt and change. It's like hanging on to an old typewriter when everyone is using a computer... eventually you won't have replacement parts anymore.

    Posted via CB10
    10-19-14 03:12 PM
  6. truenorth179's Avatar
    So this afternoon I was out raking leaves and talking with my neighbors. One of these guys still has a job at RIM. Of course the employees all are provisioned with BES servers, so he understood my question, but had no insight. So we discussed the gmail imap option. He recounted a recent problem with google that his wife had. Somehow she failed to fill out some dialog box that was attached to a youtube video and google came to understand that she was born on Jan 1st 2014. Google knows that babies can't have google accounts, so they froze everything of hers, email, calendar, everything.

    In the end she had to fax a copy of her passport to someplace in California to prove who she was. It took weeks to get access to her data again.

    Another story of the evil empire - I have a cousin who suffered a severe stroke. When she recovered somewhat she wanted to use her gmail account but couldn't remember the password. I tried to deal with google on this, I supplied her ISP's name, some email addresses that she would for sure have in her contact list, a doctor's report and much more,. but google would not unlock this woman's account. It's still locked today.

    Having your friendly ISP down the street is a huge benefit. I hope none of you have to ever deal with the Evil One. All your data can be removed and locked on their slightest whim. MS is probably no different.
    10-19-14 04:34 PM
  7. redlightblinking's Avatar
    So this afternoon I was out raking leaves and talking with my neighbors. One of these guys still has a job at RIM. Of course the employees all are provisioned with BES servers, so he understood my question, but had no insight. So we discussed the gmail imap option. He recounted a recent problem with google that his wife had. Somehow she failed to fill out some dialog box that was attached to a youtube video and google came to understand that she was born on Jan 1st 2014. Google knows that babies can't have google accounts, so they froze everything of hers, email, calendar, everything.

    In the end she had to fax a copy of her passport to someplace in California to prove who she was. It took weeks to get access to her data again.

    Another story of the evil empire - I have a cousin who suffered a severe stroke. When she recovered somewhat she wanted to use her gmail account but couldn't remember the password. I tried to deal with google on this, I supplied her ISP's name, some email addresses that she would for sure have in her contact list, a doctor's report and much more,. but google would not unlock this woman's account. It's still locked today.

    Having your friendly ISP down the street is a huge benefit. I hope none of you have to ever deal with the Evil One. All your data can be removed and locked on their slightest whim. MS is probably no different.
    Neither of these examples have anything to do with your original post. If you don't like google, just use outlook. Did you read any of the posts that responded to your request for "insight"?

    Just curious why...if the password was forgotten...there wasn't a ""forgot my password" option. Google asks for a cell phone number so they can text this info to you in case something like that happens.

    As far as the youtube video....I've never heard of anything like that. Where does Youtube ask your birthday when you post a video? Or was this when you set up the youtube account? Even if that were to happen if you used gmail instead of BIS...the WORST case scenario would be to simply set up another gmail account quickly as the intermediate "middle-man" that forwards to your phone from your ACTUAL email address, then change the forwarding info to the new gmail you just created..

    MS is probably no different.
    Sounds like you've already used the art of guessing to help make your mind up...so why ask anyone for "insight"?
    thedose likes this.
    10-19-14 04:57 PM
  8. truenorth179's Avatar
    I don't think that dealing with Microsoft would be any different. In the case of the lost google password, this woman had the stroke on the other side of the world and her cellphone was lost in the event. There was no cellphone to txt a password to. I dealt with google directly. They sent me a form to fill out with all kinds of details that might confirm this woman's identity. I filled out the form to the best of my ability and provided what I would say was a compelling case. Google has some kind of Star Chamber where decisions to release access are made, and after a week they informed me that the case was not made to their satisfaction and the woman's account remains locked.

    The youtube video was a link to a private video from a real estate agent about a house tour. Somehow it got tagged as something that the age of the viewer should be confirmed. The woman just clicked through that thinking that it was crap, and everything of hers at google was locked for four weeks.

    You give your data to the evil empire, they can take it way in a blink.

    Just creating a new gmail account doesn't really help. In IMAP, your entire email, calendar, documents, etc... are held by google. You want that stuff, not a new empty account.
    10-19-14 05:10 PM
  9. truenorth179's Avatar
    I did look at the various insights. My ISP will not do IMAP and most smaller ISPs won't go there either. My only option seems to be to trust a mammoth outfit like Google or Microsoft to store and manage my data and hope that they won't lock that away on me on a whim of some kind. They will mine that stuff and release it to any government agency they wish.

    Trust me, there's nobody at google that will answer the phone and work something out for you. Way too big for any personal service.

    ..
    10-19-14 05:18 PM
  10. tavisdunn's Avatar
    I thin you're being awfully paranoid, besides I personally would be much more concerned with some small local rinky dink ISP handling my data than a google or microsoft who have a lot more eyes on them.

    Posted via CB10
    mkelley65 likes this.
    10-19-14 05:25 PM
  11. truenorth179's Avatar
    Six sigma everything works perfect. But then there's that small chance something goes wrong...

    Those two tales are real. Google yanks a person's data away from them hundreds of times a week. You're so trusting, I just hope it's not you.
    10-19-14 05:33 PM
  12. tavisdunn's Avatar
    Your living in lala land if you think ISPS have never done the same thing.

    Posted via CB10
    Theilio likes this.
    10-19-14 05:45 PM
  13. redlightblinking's Avatar
    I don't think that dealing with Microsoft would be any different. .
    Again, you've made up your mind based on no info but a guess.....so what was the point of coming here for "insight"?

    after a week they informed me that the case was not made to their satisfaction and the woman's account remains locked.
    It's hard to comment much about the specifics since I don't really know them, but it seems like a very extreme example, and in the end, google was protecting your cousin's account from someone claiming they needed access to it. I'm sure you'd be complaining if they allowed someone access to your account when they had the same story you did.


    The youtube video was a link to a private video from a real estate agent about a house tour. Somehow it got tagged as something that the age of the viewer should be confirmed. The woman just clicked through that thinking that it was crap, and everything of hers at google was locked for four weeks. .
    I'm sure there's more to this story....but anyway.......

    I
    Just creating a new gmail account doesn't really help. In IMAP, your entire email, calendar, documents, etc... are held by google. You want that stuff, not a new empty account.
    WRONG. Your OP was that you needed some "insight" on how to deal with the lack of BIS. BIS is simply a fowarding Push email method. Gmail can do the same thing (or outlook). If they lock an account....whose soul purpose is simply to foward email.....MAKE ANOTHER ONE. The stuff on that account is just a web repeat of data SOMEWHERE ELSE. Your calendar can exist on another device and the google account is the common link to get it to other devices.
    10-19-14 05:47 PM
  14. allsportsfan's Avatar
    I may not understand this properly but why not load a copy of Microsoft office and then download all the emails you want onto outlook on your home pc or server and then you still have those emails if you want it. You don't have to deal with any of the cloud emails that way if you want. But hurry Microsoft has office365 lurking quickly to move a lot of people off of the desktop Office version.
    10-19-14 05:51 PM
  15. RXShorty's Avatar
    Setup your own Zarafa server with Z-push.
    All software for free.

    Problem solved

    Posted via CB10
    10-19-14 05:55 PM
  16. redlightblinking's Avatar
    I did look at the various insights. My ISP will not do IMAP and most smaller ISPs won't go there either.
    Which has nothing to do with anything. The suggestions were to use gmail or outlook.

    My only option seems to be to trust a mammoth outfit like Google or Microsoft to store and manage my data
    Wait....WHAT? Since when do you want them to STORE you data? You keep changing the subject. But isn't BlackBerry a "mammoth outfit" that you trusted to manage your data when you gave it to BIS????

    and hope that they won't lock that away on me on a whim of some kind.
    Clearly, if this were a common problem, a simple web search would reveal the pitchfork brigade complaining about how this happens all the time. But........it doesn't. And EVEN IF IT DID..........it has NOTHING to do with what you need to do. You don't really care if they hold your emails.......you just want a method to push email to your phones...RIGHT?

    They will mine that stuff and release it to any government agency they wish.
    It's a FREE SERVICE. You can certainly pay to subscribe to something else that's ad-free if you don't want them to have your data in some searchable database. But, since you're not using the web interface, they aren't really pushing any ads based on some words you used anyway.

    AND.....google doesn't release your data to "any government agency they wish". If there is a legal request (known as a subpoena) guess what? It usually gets turned over. I'm curious what kind of stuff is in your email that the government might need to prosecute you. But WHO CARES since the NSA is listening to everything, including your pop account that you've had for years, anyway?

    Trust me, there's nobody at google that will answer the phone and work something out for you. Way too big for any personal service.
    ..
    What "personal service" do you need? Just set up an account, have your email from the very old pop account forwarded to it, then sync it with your BlackBerry. DONE.

    FYI....if you don't mind waiting a few minutes, you can easily just setup your BlackBerry (or any phone) ping your pop account just the same way your computer does it. You just need to check the box on your computer's email client that says "leave copy on server" for a limited amount of days until it's deleted. This way, your phone and computer can get the same stuff. Even more insight for you to ignore.
    10-19-14 05:59 PM
  17. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Google yanks a person's data away from them hundreds of times a week.
    SOURCE?
    10-19-14 06:05 PM
  18. CecilTsunami's Avatar
    OP, you seem to be hung up on some very specific Gmail circumstances that probably don't happen too often but not only that, are preventable. If you're worried about someday losing your email password for whatever reason, set more than one recovery option within Gmail. You can choose a cell phone and an alternate email, then, put your passwords in a password keeper app. If that's not good enough I'm afraid you'll probably be the last remaining BIS user when they finally flip the off switch.

    As for Outlook, as my dearly departed aunt used to say whenever I'd turn my nose is at something new, "Don't knock it till you try it. "

    Posted via CB10
    10-19-14 06:06 PM
  19. Ragbert's Avatar
    Hi truenorth. Although I never had BIS, I think I use my email much as you do. I have a POP3 account which for years, I have simply downloaded via Thunderbird or other POP client to my Windows PC(s). My POP client is set to also delete from the server after retrieving mail.

    When I got my Q10, I set up this email account on it, set to check for new messages every 15 min, with a vibrate & LED notification when new mail arrives. Mail stays on my phone until I either delete it manually, or until I have downloaded it to my PC, after which it auto-deletes from my phone (an option I could change if I wanted a permanent 2nd copy).

    It sounds like you should be able to do something similar with your own POP account, no?

    Posted with my Q10, SQN100-2, 10.2.1.3253/3182 Radio
    momofteme likes this.
    10-19-14 07:02 PM
  20. fjfisher601#AC's Avatar
    I bought one from Amazon- had to wait to so as not to pay a premium price over the suggested $599. It was well worth it- MyZ10 is a Verizon, but the Passport is GSM- so I decided to get a T-Mobile sim and number(best options for European travel)... No one at the T-Mobile Store had heard of it- the Store manager was even surprised Blackberry was still around- BUT- they all flipped over it ! What should have taken 10 minutes was over 45, as everyone in the store wanted to play with it- and were very impressed- the manager even started playing YouTube videos on Passport use - displaying them on the Stores Big screen for all to see- ITS AN AWSOME phone- and I love it ! It works great on the T-Mobile 4g Network- NO issues-
    10-19-14 07:27 PM
  21. truenorth179's Avatar
    I love to see the traffic.

    I did set up a gmail account and forwarded my email to it, and sync'ed the passport to it, Works perfectly for delivering my emails to the handheld. The problem is that I can't answer any emails because BB10 will not support a "reply-to" address. When I reply to a message received by the passport, there's no reply-to address and a "reply" goes back to the passport's gmail account.

    My ISP will not delete any messages, they just call me and complain about the POP3 mailbox filling up. They are just down the street and they say they've never delivered customer data to any government agent. This is Canada, the home of the free.

    Actually, RIM (blackberry) was not a mammoth outfit. I'm in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada and I worked there. There was always someone whose office I could wander by.

    Insight: I had hoped there would be some option to using google or microsoft.

    I must have been smoking something. I thought that IMAP was a server solution whereby somebody, for no money, would host my data and allow several of my devices to have "views" of that data. is that not right? Perhaps I've asked the wrong question. The right question is "given no BIS, how have you architected your email workflow?"

    Ragbert, the passport syncs perfectly with my POP3 mailbox. The problem is that it's always empty. So the passport has no mail on it and never will.

    How have you guys arranged your email flow?
    10-19-14 07:35 PM
  22. truenorth179's Avatar
    Here's the result of my attempt to recover my cousin's account:

    Why isn't my Passport working for me?-no-dice.jpg
    10-19-14 08:07 PM
  23. Ragbert's Avatar
    IMAP: Yes, you're right. You can set your gmail account to use IMAP and then see anything which arrives into your gmail inbox, on your Passport.

    Your POP inbox: It's empty because everything in it is set to forward to your gmail account AND to delete off your POP server, right?

    I do kind of the opposite. I generally use my gmail address for "junk" mail - registering online for lists or shopping accts, etc. But I do get some legit mail there, and so I use the filtering function in Gmail's settings to forward only certain messages (usually filtered by sender) back to my POP account, without deleting them from the Gmail server. Then they end up being viewable on my phone along with the rest of my regular POP mail *before* I use my desktop client to manually download & delete them off the POP server. Unless I'm travelling, there is never more than a half day's mail sitting on my POP server at any one time.

    I'm guessing your PC's POP client is always running and always downloading messages in real time? Could you change that to manually retrieving mail twice a day, and then be able to access what is still there from your phone? Is that still too much data on your account for your ISP to handle?

    I love to see the traffic.

    I must have been smoking something. I thought that IMAP was a server solution whereby somebody, for no money, would host my data and allow several of my devices to have "views" of that data. is that not right? Perhaps I've asked the wrong question. The right question is "given no BIS, how have you architected your email workflow?"

    Ragbert, the passport syncs perfectly with my POP3 mailbox. The problem is that it's always empty. So the passport has no mail on it and never will.

    How have you guys arranged your email flow?


    Posted with my Q10, SQN100-2, 10.2.1.3253/3182 Radio
    10-19-14 08:23 PM
  24. redlightblinking's Avatar
    I love to see the traffic.

    I did set up a gmail account and forwarded my email to it, and sync'ed the passport to it, Works perfectly for delivering my emails to the handheld. The problem is that I can't answer any emails because BB10 will not support a "reply-to" address. When I reply to a message received by the passport, there's no reply-to address and a "reply" goes back to the passport's gmail account.
    BB10 definitely supports a reply to address. I send via gmail's smtp but the reply to is whatever I setup on my phone (a non gmail address). However, I believe I had to setup something in Gmail and outlook to have it use another SMTP (not googles actual SMTP) in order for
    Outlook and/or Gmail handle this differently. You may need to setup gmail or outlook to use your ISP's SMTP server in order to have it go out the same way, otherwise you will get some reference to either service in the reply-to address.


    My ISP will not delete any messages, they just call me and complain about the POP3 mailbox filling up.
    This is the opposite of what you said earlier. You said your ISP doesn't hold messages and deletes them. This is because of settings on your computers email client.

    They are just down the street and they say they've never delivered customer data to any government agent.
    Which means, what, exactly? That they have never been given a court order before for any of their small group of customers they have?
    This is Canada, the home of the free.
    As opposed to whom? Are you saying that there are no laws in Canada? And, if you're in Canada, why are you raising concerns about the NSA?

    Actually, RIM (blackberry) was not a mammoth outfit. I'm in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada and I worked there. There was always someone whose office I could wander by.
    Say what? BlackBerry was once a much larger company, and still is much bigger than you local ISP. But what does living in Waterloo and knowing someone whose office you could "wander by" have to do with anything?


    Insight: I had hoped there would be some option to using google or microsoft.
    There is. You could just use the ISP you have now. Two people including me have mentioned it. But if you want push email, you have two FREE options, or you could setup your own server (I doubt you want to do this) or you could pay some company.

    I must have been smoking something. I thought that IMAP was a server solution whereby somebody, for no money, would host my data and allow several of my devices to have "views" of that data. is that not right? Perhaps I've asked the wrong question. The right question is "given no BIS, how have you architected your email workflow?"
    Yea, you must be smoking something, because you keep making odd claims and contradicting yourself. But, since you've asked....I already explained the email workflow....multiple times. It's very simple.

    Ragbert, the passport syncs perfectly with my POP3 mailbox. The problem is that it's always empty. So the passport has no mail on it and never will.
    Yes, as I said in an earlier post, you have to tell your OTHER email client...Thunderbird, or outlook, or whatever is on your computer, to LEAVE A COPY ON THE SERVER. This way, the server will NOT delete it when the computer gets it, and leave copy for the phone when it checks in.


    How have you guys arranged your email flow?
    OK, one more time:

    In the absense of BIS, you can:
    A: setup an outlook.com account.
    B: sync it to your Passport
    C: foward your emails (that used to go to your BlackBerry address) to the outlook.com address.
    D: create an alias email address inside the outlook account...which is your pop email address. When sending emails, tell it to use that account AND it's SMTP servers. This way, it's going out the very same way your emails on the computer go out with the same path and same address.

    Or, do the same for Gmail.
    10-19-14 08:45 PM
  25. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Ah, the wonders of POP3 email. Reminds me of the good ole' days using Eudora and 14.4 dialup. Wait, the Passport doesn't support dial-up? Useless device.

    Posted via CB10
    hpjrt likes this.
    10-19-14 08:52 PM
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