09-02-15 08:04 AM
142 ... 23456
tools
  1. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    I hate comments like this, and they're way too prevalent - not just here, but all over the Internet. It's a classic logical fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam [argument from ignorance] where, because no one has conclusively disproven the claim or because there's no way to conclusively disprove the claim, we must "naturally" conclude the claim is true. It's like saying, "Dinosaurs still roam the earth - they're just 1/8" tall and live somewhere underground" and demanding others prove that it's not so. We could scour the earth to a depth of 10 miles and show they're not there, and someone could roll out, "well, they're probably more like 200 miles down - so since you haven't checked there, I'm clearly still right."

    Even if someone were to come out with proof to refute the claim, most people will simply shift the goalposts or ignore the evidence presented, and assert the corresponding claim as still being true. The fact is, very few people here at CB have any actual, hands-on insight into what's going on with BB10 - and those few can't divulge details because of NDA's, job security, etc. etc., so continually asking for "proof" is silly. Just because I'm working on planning right now doesn't mean development on the model that I want is dead, never to be touched again; it means "priorities have shifted, work on that model is paused so I can deal with immediate needs - and when that's done and nothing else is pressing, I'll switch back over to it."

    Until there's a formal announcement from Blackberry that, "we're pulling the plug on BB10" let's drop the "BB10 is dead" hysteria simply because no one comes out and shows to some uncertain level of "proof" that it's not dead.
    You obviously have no idea who Bluenoser63 is... or his huge amount of experience with BlackBerry.

    He speaks from experience... not ignorantiam... which far more resembles your post.

    Posted via CB10
    08-26-15 07:12 PM
  2. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    I hate comments like this, and they're way too prevalent - not just here, but all over the Internet. It's a classic logical fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam [argument from ignorance] where, because no one has conclusively disproven the claim or because there's no way to conclusively disprove the claim, we must "naturally" conclude the claim is true. It's like saying, "Dinosaurs still roam the earth - they're just 1/8" tall and live somewhere underground" and demanding others prove that it's not so. We could scour the earth to a depth of 10 miles and show they're not there, and someone could roll out, "well, they're probably more like 200 miles down - so since you haven't checked there, I'm clearly still right."

    Even if someone were to come out with proof to refute the claim, most people will simply shift the goalposts or ignore the evidence presented, and assert the corresponding claim as still being true. The fact is, very few people here at CB have any actual, hands-on insight into what's going on with BB10 - and those few can't divulge details because of NDA's, job security, etc. etc., so continually asking for "proof" is silly. Just because I'm working on planning right now doesn't mean development on the model that I want is dead, never to be touched again; it means "priorities have shifted, work on that model is paused so I can deal with immediate needs - and when that's done and nothing else is pressing, I'll switch back over to it."

    Until there's a formal announcement from Blackberry that, "we're pulling the plug on BB10" let's drop the "BB10 is dead" hysteria simply because no one comes out and shows to some uncertain level of "proof" that it's not dead.
    You hate comments like this as you know it is true. All platforms release information about the road maps for future OS development so that developer have lead time to test their software. BlackBerry last released a road map update about a year ago. Nothing since then. Please show me where MS. Apple or Google didn't put out a road map for developers for over a year. Has not happened. As for NDA's. I am sure there are people who are under NDA's who know the plans and they are under an NDA because the news is bad.

    The proof that BB10 is a dead end.

    * No road map for over a year.
    * Will not update the framework of BlackBerry from Qt4.8 to Qt5. Qt4.8 is EOL in December.
    * Will not support Qt tools or libraries for Qt5. Qt Creator no longer support BlackBerry 10.
    * No webcasts about BlackBerry 10 for over a year. All webcasts are Android and iOS only.
    * Laying off BlackBerry 10 developers.
    * All the people who are in developer relations have left.
    * Bug reporting tools for BlackBerry 10 developers were offline for almost 9 months. Shows lack of interest that it took that long to get fixed.
    * Communication channels between BlackBerry and BlackBerry developers have gone very quiet and when that can be reached say nothing.

    There is so much out there and as a developer, you can see that things have changed dramatically in terms of BlackBerry 10. An OS requires tools to write for the platform. When the tools are not being updated, the OS is not far behind.
    lift, wojt7 and dolco like this.
    08-26-15 07:30 PM
  3. leglace1's Avatar
    I had absolutely no problem buying the OG Passport a month ago. I love BB10, and I have no app issues thanks to Android runtime and Cobalt Play store solution. I can care less that they make a couple hardware units pure Android. I still get to use my Passport.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by leglace1; 08-26-15 at 09:23 PM.
    jamesharmeling likes this.
    08-26-15 07:32 PM
  4. Irish Blues's Avatar
    He speaks from experience... not ignorantiam... which far more resembles your post.
    This from a perpetual "BB sucks" bear. Translation: "you don't say what I want to hear, so clearly you're the one that's wrong."

    I'm convinced.

    You hate comments like this as you know it is true.
    Really? I know it's true? I, just like you, are in the 99.99% of people here who (A) don't work at Blackberry, so (B) have no idea what's really going on behind the front door.

    I suggest you let me speak for myself, instead of pretending you have any idea what I think - especially when we both know you don't.

    All platforms release information about the road maps for future OS development so that developer have lead time to test their software. BlackBerry last released a road map update about a year ago.
    Yeah, and I also remember when 10.2.2 was supposed to be EOL for BB10 ... and then 10.3.1 was supposed to be EOL for BB10 ... and people had pictures that proved beyond a doubt that BB10 was EOL. And then, this weird thing happened: new versions of BB10 rolled out. Has BB handled things immaculately? Of course not - but let's not pretend that BB is somehow alone on this. **** happens; instead of crying in despair and reaching for "THE END OF THE WORLD IS AT HAND" signs, try actually working to make things better and offer to help. Or, go climb a tall hill and wait for the end to come - whatever suits you.

    Please show me where MS. Apple or Google didn't put out a road map for developers for over a year.
    This presumes that I care what Apple and/or Google (or anyone else you'd like to mention) have or have not done. I have better things to do than run down every random request you throw out.

    I am sure there are people who are under NDA's who know the plans and they are under an NDA because the news is bad.
    Well there we go, folks - Bluesnoser has already concluded that NDA's only signal bad news. I've been under an NDA twice in my career and neither time was it bad (unless "gosh, someone lost their job" = "everything involved was bad", and even then that would have applied in just one of the two situations) - but we're ignoring that. Skip the rest of the "proof" offered, if there's NDA's in force it's only because everyone knows that BB10 is dead and Chen is trying to shut everyone up to keep the news from leaking out ... and since we're being pessimistic at the moment, let's go all-in and just presume that everything else is about to get deep-sixed, whether there's any proof of that or not.

    Someone contact Kevin Michaluk, tell him it's time to close CB down. Bla1ze, sorry - great work as the editor, but you've got nothing left to do. Last one out of the forum, please turn off the lights; everyone get home safely, tip your cab drivers if needed - and don't argue over 20 cents on the fare.
    danfrancisco likes this.
    08-26-15 09:12 PM
  5. danfrancisco's Avatar
    First of all, let me take a nice deep inhale... because this thread is a refreshing breath of fresh air! Great op-ed, RLTurn! I enjoyed reading a balanced and objective opinion piece for once on CB!

    I too, decided not to pull the trigger on the SE Passport despite every bone in my body wanting to click that Proceed To Checkout button ever since CB put up the posting on the SE's launch. The phone is gorgeous and looks like a big improvement from the OG Passport from a typing standpoint (I have the white PP). However my reasons for backing down differ from yours.

    I too am a massive BB honk. Ever since my first device (Pearl 8100), I've been hooked. Once I smartened up and realized that it's better to buy phones unlocked outright rather than subsidize through carriers, it was game over. Every BB10 phone out there I now own. So why didn't I get the SE? Simple... Android.

    No, I am not an FAndroid. But I am someone who loves his current occupation and my employer is retiring BES this year. The only mobile device management platform they'll support is iOS and Android. I do have an iPhone 6, and while I love how it functions as a media consumption device, the fact that there are a ton of games in iTunes and I can buy *any* type of accessory I want for it, it sits on my nightstand, with no SIM card, to be used on wi-fi only. Simply put, it does not even come close to matching the productivity experience of my BBs.

    So when the rumours of the Venice Slider started to surface, I was intrigued. And then when I saw that evleaks screenshot of all those apk files including the Hub... well count me super curious! If my employer was no longer going to support BES, I at least have an option to go with the Venice. It's Android, but it's still BlackBerry! Win-win!

    And then I saw the leaks of the SE Passport running Lollipop -- and my mind was made up. So no SE PP for me for now. I'm going to wait until November to see how this whole DroidBerry deal shakes out. And if it turns out that the Venice is the only BB device to have Android with no plans for the SE PP... than I'll still treat myself to an SE BB10 Passport for Christmas!

    Anyways, now *I'm* guilty of TLDR!
    RLTurn77 likes this.
    08-26-15 09:42 PM
  6. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Yeah, and I also remember when 10.2.2 was supposed to be EOL for BB10 ... and then 10.3.1 was supposed to be EOL for BB10 ... and people had pictures that proved beyond a doubt that BB10 was EOL. And then, this weird thing happened: new versions of BB10 rolled out. Has BB handled things immaculately? Of course not - but let's not pretend that BB is somehow alone on this. **** happens; instead of crying in despair and reaching for "THE END OF THE WORLD IS AT HAND" signs, try actually working to make things better and offer to help. Or, go climb a tall hill and wait for the end to come - whatever suits you.

    This presumes that I care what Apple and/or Google (or anyone else you'd like to mention) have or have not done. I have better things to do than run down every random request you throw out.
    I will remind you that BlackBerry posted the road map for 10.2.1 and up to 10.3.1. 10.3.1 is the latest SDK released. You can also check my postings for that time and I was a big supporter of BlackBerry. But in the last 6 months, the writing is on the wall.

    You don't want to look at what Apple/MS/Google does as they post the road map for developers.

    So I will mark your post and we can revisit it at the end of the year, when there still won't be a road map for developers, BlackBerry 10 Qt framework will be EOL and all the focus at BlackBerry will be on Android. They will still be selling BlackBerry 10 in the same manner that they sold BBOS7 until recently. It will be a legacy product.
    08-26-15 11:20 PM
  7. STV0726's Avatar
    Very good thread. Certainly got better response than my jumping ship post. :-/ I'm jealous.

    But seriously, I'm in the same boat as you OP.

    --STV falling from grace with his Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2339
    RLTurn77 likes this.
    08-27-15 05:36 AM
  8. jackcarr's Avatar
    I really think BlackBerry is wading into the Android waters because BB10 just isn't strong enough from a sales perspective to keep their handset business afloat.

    That having been said it's been said that the BlackBerry Android devices have BlackBerry productivity suite which, I think has BB10 elements. If these new BlackBerry Android handsets sell, it may give rise to a small percentage trying a full BB10 device once they see what BlackBerry Productivity Suite has to offer.

    So, I don't think they'll completely abandon BB10...at least not right away.

    Posted via Z10
    08-27-15 06:41 AM
  9. RLTurn77's Avatar
    Wow, I've been reading through all the posts and appreciate the input whether I disagree or not. Didn't think I'd get so much feedback without a bunch of bashing mixed in lol!

    Can probably mark this as my longest thread haha. I've been working all through yesterday and the night which is why I haven't really been able to respond individually, but have been browsing through since my original post.

    Anyway, there are a few nice posts here which differ from my own original view on why I did decide to cancel my SE order that make a lot of sense as well. Definitely appreciate the feedback and will try to respond individually to some of you that expressed your own opinions... as soon as I get some sleep!

    Oh and after seeing TLDR a few times, I had to look it up. Learn something new every day :-)

    Posted via CB10
    08-27-15 07:17 AM
  10. Zeratul57's Avatar
    All of this ultimately just goes to show how lacking android really is. Google services are not everything and there are alternatives, even ones worth paying for. When Google does start abusing it's search power or user base you will wish you diversified and had not handed so much trust over to one greedy American company. I mean come on!

    Posted from a Passport or Z30. Get one!
    RLTurn77 and lift like this.
    08-27-15 08:13 AM
  11. anon(55900)'s Avatar
    If BB makes a BB10 OS version that runs Android/Google (Maps, Calendar, Drive, etc) and Android Apps flawlessly but is still BB10, I would guess that Google would support that because it increases sales of Android Apps which increases profits for Google? It kills once and for all the argument that BB OS and phones are great but there are no Apps. BB wins and Google wins.

    I also feel that the reason OS updates and talks of 10.4 have gone silent from BB is that they are preparing for something unique, the next level, and I feel it is what I speak of above, which is BB10 being able to do Android flawlessly.
    08-27-15 08:31 AM
  12. Marcin Dabrowsky's Avatar
    ...When Google does start abusing it's search power or user base you will wish you diversified and had not handed so much trust over to one greedy American company. I mean come on!...
    This has been in full go mode for a while now. People don't care about their privacy. They post their entire lives out there daily for everyone to see. It's a sad turn that our society has taken.



    Posted via Silver Passport.
    lift likes this.
    08-27-15 08:46 AM
  13. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    If BB makes a BB10 OS version that runs Android/Google (Maps, Calendar, Drive, etc) and Android Apps flawlessly but is still BB10, I would guess that Google would support that because it increases sales of Android Apps which increases profits for Google? It kills once and for all the argument that BB OS and phones are great but there are no Apps. BB wins and Google wins.

    I also feel that the reason OS updates and talks of 10.4 have gone silent from BB is that they are preparing for something unique, the next level, and I feel it is what I speak of above, which is BB10 being able to do Android flawlessly.
    Please don't get your hopes up. BB Android isn't going to be BB10.
    08-27-15 09:11 AM
  14. joshua_sx1's Avatar
    Nice thread and responses...

    We may not know what BlackBerry will do next but one thing for sure, they will 'go' for something 'profitable'. BB10 maybe the best secured mobile OS but if it is not profitable, its useless. Android, on the second hand, is probably one of the most unsecured mobile OS but if it is more profitable than BB10, it is worthy to invest. And this is Mr. Chen is looking right now. After all, that is his job as CEO. He needs to make the company profitable.

    'Maximisation' is another way of making a profit. Selling some things which are already in old inventories like SE, is actually a nice strategy from business point of view.

    And whether we like it or not, a company which bleeding money wouldn't survive unless they find a way to stop the bleeding. If an Android based BlackBerry devices will become profitable, what is the purpose of continuing bleeding money on BB10? When BlackBerry abandoned the PlayBook, it becomes one of the most of unpopular decision made by BlackBerry that hurts the PlayBook users - especially when they applied the 'maximisation' strategy by claiming that PlayBook will be updated to BB10. Somehow, they still managed to sell some old inventories of PlayBook. I'm one of those who bought another unit hoping that they will be updated to BB10. But this decision definitely stopped bleeding money on PlayBook!

    Again, the probability of BlackBerry abandoning BB10 for an Android OS is high provided that these BlackBerry Android devices will give them profits.

    Nothing personal... just pure business...

    Posted via CB10
    Thunderbuck and RLTurn77 like this.
    08-27-15 10:35 AM
  15. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    If BB makes a BB10 OS version that runs Android/Google (Maps, Calendar, Drive, etc) and Android Apps flawlessly but is still BB10, I would guess that Google would support that because it increases sales of Android Apps which increases profits for Google? It kills once and for all the argument that BB OS and phones are great but there are no Apps. BB wins and Google wins.

    I also feel that the reason OS updates and talks of 10.4 have gone silent from BB is that they are preparing for something unique, the next level, and I feel it is what I speak of above, which is BB10 being able to do Android flawlessly.
    The biggest stumbling block is Google Play Services, a framework that all of Google's own apps require as well as some third parties'. Android is Open Source, but GPlay support is strictly at Google's discretion.

    Google has shown no interest in allowing this on BB10 and as much as I'd love to see it happen myself, I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

    Posted from CB10 on my classy Passport--TBUCK64
    RLTurn77 likes this.
    08-27-15 12:22 PM
  16. whatsever's Avatar
    I just get my SE edition and It's better than the Passport it self so far
    jamesharmeling likes this.
    08-27-15 12:24 PM
  17. MrSuit's Avatar
    I am on the fence too - but for a slightly different reason.

    I really like the Passport specs but find it too wide, but I love BB10.

    I love the rumoured Slider specs but I am not so sure about it if it comes out with the Android OS.

    The unsettling fact is that BlackBerry has been awfully quiet about future BB10 device roadmap which to me means that they're laser-focused on ChenDroid as BlackBerry might not have enough resources to work on both fronts - BB10 and Android OS.

    I just hope they make enough money from Slider ChenDroids and future ChenDroid John Snows to support atleast one new BB10 device launch every 1-2 years.

    So yeah - I'm on the fence until after the Slider launches and then check if it's really worth it, else I'll get the shining White Passport - hopefully it'll be on Sale by then

    Drafted on my Q10
    RLTurn77 likes this.
    08-27-15 02:19 PM
  18. Poi25's Avatar
    I'm holding off to see if a Android Passport surfaces as well. I enjoy Android and I enjoy BB10. I've been using a Passport since January, and it's the first phone I've owned where I've had no desire to switch, even after 8 months.

    With that said, even though BB10 is fast, cleaner, and substantially more stable than Android, let's be real: BB has been facing an uphill battle for a long time now, and even if they began to advertise profusely, your average teenager, young adult, and businessperson already has their mind made up; "BB is ancient and behind the times. The OS sucks." It's sad. It's wrong. But it's true.

    Switching to Android is a last ditch effort to start fresh and get handsets into new customers' paws. I'd gladly stay with BB10, but that's because I gave it a chance and realized how awesome it is. Others who followed the same path comprise a very small percentage of the smartphone population.

    People hate change. The prospect of changing to a device/OS that's been bashed to hell and back for years now, even if it could POTENTIALLY be the best one they've ever used doesn't sound enticing to the average Joe.
    RLTurn77 likes this.
    08-27-15 02:52 PM
  19. Savior4Life's Avatar
    The only thing that is going to save BBRY is if Jesus comes back walking across the water with a BBRY passport in hand.

    Full touch didn't save this company, BB10 didn't save this company and Android is not going to save this company. At the very least the die hard faithfuls will buy the "Android BBRY's" but there is no way the world is going to give up their, Samsungs, HTC's or Sony Xperia's for BBRY hardware.... Just like they didn't for BB10. And we all know there isn't enough faithfuls left over to support this company.

    Sony Xperia Z5 here I come...
    08-27-15 04:32 PM
  20. anon(870071)'s Avatar
    Hey Bro after the ultra long read, Ive come to a conclusion that you just got "buyers remorse" and wanted some justification to do a refund.

    But hey thats what I got out of reading the editorial.

    Passport SQW100-1/10.3.2.2252 Rogers Wireless Posted via CB
    Thunderbuck likes this.
    08-27-15 04:36 PM
  21. RLTurn77's Avatar
    The only thing that is going to save BBRY is if Jesus comes back walking across the water with a BBRY passport in hand.

    Full touch didn't save this company, BB10 didn't save this company and Android is not going to save this company. At the very least the die hard faithfuls will buy the "Android BBRY's" but there is no way the world is going to give up their, Samsungs, HTC's or Sony Xperia's for BBRY hardware.... Just like they didn't for BB10. And we all know there isn't enough faithfuls left over to support this company.

    Sony Xperia Z5 here I come...
    Have to go back and read through some more, but right now and for the last three or so quarters BlackBerry has been adding money to their COH... even while acquiring other companies.

    BlackBerry does not need to be "saved". Yes the handset division needs some help, but BlackBerry as a company is in a much stronger position now than they have been in years. This is yet another perception that hasn't changed much. If BlackBerry isn't selling devices they will be dead, bankrupt, whatever.

    The truth is that they are adding to their 3+ billion with just the minimal handsets they are currently selling. The company does still need handset revenue though while software picks up. Just wanted to address BlackBerry "the company".

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by RLTurn77; 08-27-15 at 05:41 PM.
    08-27-15 05:24 PM
  22. RLTurn77's Avatar
    Hey Bro after the ultra long read, Ive come to a conclusion that you just got "buyers remorse" and wanted some justification to do a refund.

    But hey thats what I got out of reading the editorial.

    Passport SQW100-1/10.3.2.2252 Rogers Wireless Posted via CB
    No way did I have buyers remorse... especially since I never bought the Silver Edition to begin with. I placed a pre-order through ShopCB and eventually cancelled the order as I couldn't justify it based on the devices I currently am using, which include both a black and red Passport, and my original post.

    You definitely misunderstood my post as I did not need justification for anything. There was no refund. Actually, if it ended up shipping and I wasn't able to cancel, I'd be pretty damn happy with it based on the posts here. It seems like a very nice, refined Passport. I'll likely pick one up on sale down the line.

    I'm running the Z10, Z30, and the Passport currently and do not have buyers remorse on any. I really love them all for different reasons. Is it a bit much? Probably, but I enjoy them and life is short!

    Posted via CB10
    lift likes this.
    08-27-15 05:31 PM
  23. RLTurn77's Avatar
    Very good thread. Certainly got better response than my jumping ship post. :-/ I'm jealous.

    But seriously, I'm in the same boat as you OP.

    --STV falling from grace with his Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2339
    Thanks lol. This cracked me up. Regardless of how you present your thoughts you'll get those that take the time to actually respond as an intelligent adult and those that will just bash you or post something they somehow inferred without logic.

    Posted via CB10
    08-27-15 05:40 PM
  24. papped's Avatar
    but there is no way the world is going to give up their, Samsungs, HTC's or Sony Xperia's for BBRY hardware.... Just like they didn't for BB10. And we all know there isn't enough faithfuls left over to support this company.
    Most of the companies you listed are on the major decline as well (some in a much worse position than BB)... Hope you like names like Xiaomi/Huawei/etc because in the near futrue most of those OEMs will be gone.
    lift likes this.
    08-27-15 05:50 PM
  25. RLTurn77's Avatar
    I'm kind of in the same boat as you, as I was about the order the SE before deciding against it only because I want some more clarity before making a $650 + tax investment in a phone that should theoretically be supported for at least a year or two.

    I, too, converted my entire immediate family to BB10 phones as they are all on Z30s now and they love it. But as you said, with no immediate upgrade path there will eventually be questions about where to go next. Luckily they are rather new to these phones so I have some time to figure things out before then.

    I suspect we'll know more within a month. At that time I can finally decide if I'll continue to buy into the BB ecosystem or if it's time to move on.

    Having said that, I took the time to look into "the best" Android phones on the market right now and I can say that I'm not terribly impressed. The latest Android updates are still introducing features that have been on BB10 ages ago and I would have assumed they already had as well.

    I will wait and see, but it's pretty much this exact reasoning that may also be killing BB as they're taking away from their own prospective buyers who are not clear about the future of the platform. Now we're not talking about if the company will survive, we're just wondering if BB10 will.
    This is why I wrote above that I'd likely pick up the SE on sale during the holidays... hell, I got my original Passport from shopblackberry for $449 shortly after launch last fall and the red one for $499 last November.

    I'm actually hoping to hear a bit more or just a tease tomorrow. John Chen is set to speak tomorrow and he's been silent for a while. After this, the quiet period begins again and I'm really expecting much more transparency during this Earnings Conference Call since it'll be mid-September or so.

    My good friend has the S6 Active and the function of being waterproof and dust/dirt proof as well as a bit more rugged impresses me. As for Android/Samsung, we often compare devices and everything that is stock on BB10 is an app on his device from the device monitor and many other features. A good handful of the apps he has had to install are already baked into BB10.

    You make an excellent point that still needs to be drilled into some that just aren't getting what Chen is trying to accomplish. It's definitely not about BlackBerry surviving as a company, but the OS they're running/hardware.

    Posted via CB10
    08-27-15 05:55 PM
142 ... 23456

Similar Threads

  1. just ordered an unlocked BlackBerry Porsche Design P'9983 64GB
    By Lawrie Sherratt in forum BlackBerry P'9983
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 11-17-16, 11:43 AM
  2. Turning my Q10 from Black to Gold
    By Skidoo583 in forum BlackBerry Q10
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 10-07-15, 08:21 AM
  3. Separating ringtones from my music
    By other_brother in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-26-15, 05:13 AM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-25-15, 05:24 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-25-15, 01:50 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD