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08-06-19 04:23 AM
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  1. NietoDev's Avatar
    We can make a group, and support devices like passport and q10, with applications that are cross-plataform.

    They don't have to be dead already, the hardware still preary good
    07-30-19 08:41 PM
  2. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Actually, no the hardware really isn't all that great...

    BBOS and BB10 are two very different operating systems, that require very different app devolpment.

    BBOS is pretty much dead at the end of the year without BIS. BB10 should be in better shape... But I think what it will need is developers of existing apps to release them for download without BBW..

    But most the missing apps,... Are not something the "little" developers can do.
    BigAl_BB9900 likes this.
    07-31-19 05:50 AM
  3. Emaderton3's Avatar
    I think you mean BB10. But cross-platform?

    Good luck getting developers to spend their valuable time on an obsolete OS that isn't even selling anymore. The community couldn't support a developer who was making an Android app to mimic some BB10 features. So, this will be a hard sell.
    BigAl_BB9900 likes this.
    07-31-19 06:28 AM
  4. glwerry's Avatar
    Unfortunately this won't accomplish anything worthwhile for people who need apps like FaceBook and ESPECIALLY banking apps.

    No bank on earth is going to let you touch their apps for development and given the few legacy BB devices around there's just NO business reason to do this.
    BigAl_BB9900 likes this.
    07-31-19 11:15 AM
  5. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Unfortunately this won't accomplish anything worthwhile for people who need apps like FaceBook and ESPECIALLY banking apps.

    No bank on earth is going to let you touch their apps for development and given the few legacy BB devices around there's just NO business reason to do this.
    That's the thing, the apps that BB10 is missing are apps that only those that control the systems can create.

    When BBW shuts down... it will be more about developers needing (wanting) to find a place for users to access their apps. What's needed is some kind of organized hosting site for those BBOS or BB10 App developers that want to offer up their apps outside of BBW. (not that there are many of those)
    Last edited by Dunt Dunt Dunt; 08-01-19 at 01:37 PM.
    BigAl_BB9900 and otaku2 like this.
    07-31-19 11:32 AM
  6. anon(10603236)'s Avatar
    Android is "open source"
    Couldn't you create from that end?
    To rephrase the question.... what would it take to create from that end?
    ( I personally don't know which way is up so give me the short explanation) Why don't we start to develop BBOS apps?-0251.gif
    08-01-19 02:33 PM
  7. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Android is "open source"
    Couldn't you create from that end?
    To rephrase the question.... what would it take to create from that end?
    ( I personally don't know which way is up so give me the short explanation) Click image for larger version. 

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    Create what?

    Apps... no Android apps aren't all open source, they belong to the developers. Those apps that use services like Snap, Twitter, Facebook... those services for security reasons are tightly controlled by those companies. Even if you found a way to hack their app, they'd close the access and block you.

    You want a SNAP App, only SNAP is able to create one that will connect to their servers. Same for most all apps that need to connect to a "service".
    08-01-19 02:55 PM
  8. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    We can make a group, and support devices like passport and q10, with applications that are cross-plataform.

    They don't have to be dead already, the hardware still preary good
    Hey Nieto,

    I'm entirely with you, but as you can see your opinion isn't a popular one with some on Crackberry these days. Never fear however; there are millions of BB10 and BBOS users (as claimed by Blackberry Limited; their words, not mine) that are behind you!

    Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss further--click my username, then click PM in blue to the right of Posts. We can likely put something together.

    As for DDD's comment about third-party services being "tightly controlled" that completely ignores the existence of APIs specifically designed to allow third-party development.
    08-01-19 05:25 PM
  9. conite's Avatar
    As for DDD's comment about third-party services being "tightly controlled" that completely ignores the existence of APIs specifically designed to allow third-party development.
    There are no public APIs remaining for any of the major apps such as Instagram, Facebook, etc. They deprecated them when the industry consolidated to two platforms.
    08-01-19 05:54 PM
  10. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    There are no public APIs remaining for any of the major apps such as Instagram, Facebook, etc. They deprecated them when the industry consolidated to two platforms.
    Instagram:

    https://developers.facebook.com/products/instagram/

    Facebook:

    https://developers.facebook.com/ads/...keting-api-v4/

    You are however welcome to your opinion.
    gamegurl likes this.
    08-01-19 06:08 PM
  11. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    There are no public APIs remaining for any of the major apps such as Instagram, Facebook, cloud storage, etc. They deprecated them when the industry consolidated to two platforms.
    While there are a relative few major apps with open APIs, you are absolutely correct about the majority. The purpose of having open APIs is to allow outside developers to develop apps that you are too busy to develop yourself or cannot afford to develop yourself - but generally, companies don't like this option because it's less secure and it's much more of a hassle to make changes. Back when there were half a dozen smartphone platforms, plus (in some cases, like Netflix) movie streamers and Blu-Ray players and Smart TVs, etc., or for Pandora, AV receiver and music streamers and car stereos, etc., it made sense to have open APIs because too much was happening too fast.

    Now that the market has stabilized, and consolidated, and security concerns have shown themselves to be very real and relevant, companies have closed their APIs and increased security almost across the board. That means only that company can develop apps that can access their online services - and should someone find a way to reverse-engineer their app/security somehow, they're almost certainly just going to close that hole and increase security further.

    This is why developer support has always been so critical to the success of any platform. It's why Windows and MacOS have been the only successful commercial OSs on the desktop despite being around for almost 40 years and despite various competitors coming and going in the meantime - those competitors simply couldn't attract enough important developers to be competitive.

    As a developer, your goal is to reach as many potential customers as you can as cheaply as you can while still retaining SOME choice - which is why most developers tend to only support the strongest 2 platforms on any family of devices. 2 platforms allows for choice and some different philosophies without having to do the same difficult and expensive work 3 or 4 or 5 times with little increase in userbase.

    The mobile OS wars took place in 2009-2011, and iOS and Android won - because they won the vast majority of developer support. Yes, it took until 2014 or so before even most holdouts were forced to admit the winners, but looking back, it's pretty clear, even among ardent third-party fans, that the contest was over by 2012. Developer support is everything.
    08-01-19 06:11 PM
  12. conite's Avatar
    I don't think you read the blogs. The APIs are intended to share from your apps, and leverage some tools and analytics.

    You can't create a 3rd party app to replicate the original apps.
    08-01-19 06:36 PM
  13. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    I don't think you read the blogs. The APIs are intended to share from your apps, and leverage some tools and analytics.

    You can't create a 3rd party app to replicate the original apps.
    I did read the blogs. However, this was intended to refute your comment about there being no APIs available. I'm confident in the ability to develop third-party apps to provide the same functionality as the original apps (they would of course not be direct copies, as some of these companies never developed native BB10 apps in the first place) through APIs and other methods.
    08-01-19 06:38 PM
  14. app_Developer's Avatar
    I did read the blogs. However, this was intended to refute your comment about there being no APIs available. I'm confident in the ability to develop third-party apps to provide the same functionality as the original apps (they would of course not be direct copies, as some of these companies never developed native BB10 apps in the first place) through APIs and other methods.
    With all due respect, your confidence is misplaced. Most of the major services still have some public APIs, but they are a subset of the APIs one would need to actually build the functional equivalent of their official apps. This is absolutely by design.

    It is not possible to build the functional equivalent of IG’s app for example. Not even close.
    08-01-19 06:45 PM
  15. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    With all due respect, your confidence is misplaced. Most of the major services still have public APIs, but they are subset of the APIs one would need to actually replace their official apps. This is absolutely by design.
    That is certainly possible app. But there are also other ways to develop--web apps, etc. It may be that the third-party companies themselves are required to develop a native app that replicates the core functionality of official apps, and if that's the situation then that's the situation. But it's worth exploring, whether through API or other methods.
    08-01-19 06:48 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    That is certainly possible app. But there are also other ways to develop--web apps, etc. It may be that the third-party companies themselves are required to develop a native app that replicates the core functionality of official apps, and if that's the situation then that's the situation. But it's worth exploring, whether through API or other methods.
    There is nothing else to explore.

    Feel free to build a wrapper around a mobile website à la Nemory if you wish, but without a functional set of APIs, you're stuck.
    08-01-19 06:50 PM
  17. app_Developer's Avatar
    That is certainly possible app. But there are also other ways to develop--web apps, etc. It may be that the third-party companies themselves are required to develop a native app that replicates the core functionality of official apps, and if that's the situation then that's the situation. But it's worth exploring, whether through API or other methods.
    No it is just a fantasy to think this is possible in 2019. Even if you hacked your way to an answer it would violate T&C’s and be trivially easy to block.

    This isn’t 2010. That was a long time ago.

    There isn’t even an adequate embedded browser to host in your BB10 app, assuming you get the SDK to work that hasn’t been supported in years.
    08-01-19 06:50 PM
  18. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    There is nothing else to explore.

    Feel free to build a wrapper around a mobile website à la Nemory if you wish, but without a functional set of APIs, you're stuck.
    You are welcome to your opinion.
    08-01-19 06:51 PM
  19. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    No it is just a fantasy to think this is possible in 2019. Even if you hacked your way to an answer it would violate T&C’s and be trivially easy to block.

    This isn’t 2010. That was a long time ago.
    This may be the case, and you may be entirely right. But it's worth exploring.
    08-01-19 06:52 PM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    This may be the case, and you may be entirely right. But it's worth exploring.
    Why is it worth exploring exactly? I worked on the official Twitter app. Ive worked on official govt apps. I’ve worked on apps for two of the largest banks in the world. I’ve been an executive at a top 10 bank and now at a top 3 car company where it’s my job to protect our digital front ends. I assure you the industry isn’t foolish enough today to allow some random person to recreate our functionality.

    You can make a worthless wrapper (which we will do our best to block because it severely compromises our users security). But even that wrapper would be hard to make on BB10 given the stale state of the browser engine on BB10 and the fact that the SDK has cobwebs all over it and is in a museum already.
    08-01-19 06:56 PM
  21. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    Why is it worth exploring exactly? I worked on the official Twitter app. Ive worked on official govt apps. I’ve worked on apps for two of the largest banks in the world. I’ve been an executive at a top 10 bank and now at a top 3 car company where it’s my job to protect our digital front ends. I assure you the industry isn’t foolish enough today to allow some random person to recreate our functionality.

    You can make a worthless wrapper (which we will do our best to block because it severely compromises our users security). But even that wrapper would be hard to make on BB10 given the stale state of the browser engine on BB10 and the fact that the SDK has cobwebs all over it and is in a museum already.
    I've seen many people protest "it can't be done" on BB10. Usually there are ways around that situation.

    As for your point of view on the industry, I suspect you allow connection to your systems using Android, which is well-known to have security holes left, right, and sideways. I further suspect that if you tried to block that functionality you would face revolt from your Android user base due to the convenience they would lose. If these two suspicions are correct, it makes me doubt whether the industry is actually concerned with its users' security.

    You certainly have much more experience than I do in app development. However, I have a great deal of experience in IT networking and security, and while it may or may not be possible to have native functionality in BB10 apps, it's worth checking into.

    To paraphrase a famous movie speech:

    Just when you think they're about to break apart....BB10 users find a way.

    And when the forums blow hard and the apps aren't there....BB10 users find a way.

    And when the roosters are crowing and the cows are spinning circles in the pasture....um, okay, BB10 users find a way.

    And when everyone says it can't be done...BB10 users find a way.
    08-01-19 07:24 PM
  22. app_Developer's Avatar
    As for your point of view on the industry, I suspect you allow connection to your systems using Android, which is well-known to have security holes left, right, and sideways. I further suspect that if you tried to block that functionality you would face revolt from your Android user base due to the convenience they would lose. If these two suspicions are correct, it makes me doubt whether the industry is actually concerned with its users' security.
    So because Android has security issues, we should just not have apps at all? Or we should open the floodgates all together and allow any random person access to our APIs?

    Most of us don't live in a world of extremes. Of course we would prefer everyone used iOS, and some banks do allow transactions on iOS that they won't allow on Android. So reasonable precautions are taken, but it's absurd to say security is ever all or nothing. It's all about balancing and managing risk.

    Where I work we even use BB software to help mitigate the risks on Android.

    Having completely open APIs, though, that any developer can use to make unofficial replicas of our apps is insane. Nobody publishes an open API to unlock your car doors.

    To paraphrase a famous movie speech:

    Just when you think they're about to break apart....BB10 users find a way.

    And when the forums blow hard and the apps aren't there....BB10 users find a way.

    And when the roosters are crowing and the cows are spinning circles in the pasture....um, okay, BB10 users find a way.

    And when everyone says it can't be done...BB10 users find a way.
    Well, let us know when you've made a BB10 IG client that isn't a ripoff and that isn't blocked by FB once you have a few hundred users.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    08-01-19 07:39 PM
  23. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    So because Android has security issues, we should just not have apps at all? Or we should open the floodgates all together and allow any random person access to our APIs?

    Most of us don't live in a world of extremes. Of course we would prefer everyone used iOS, and some banks do allow transactions on iOS that they won't allow on Android. So reasonable precautions are taken, but it's absurd to say security is ever all or nothing. It's all about balancing and managing risk.

    Where I work we even use BB software to help mitigate the risks on Android.

    Having completely open APIs, though, that any developer can use to make unofficial replicas of our apps is insane. Nobody publishes an open API to unlock your car doors.



    Well, let us know when you've made a BB10 IG client that isn't a ripoff and that isn't blocked by FB once you have a few hundred users.
    I'm not suggesting open APIs. However, APIs that employ security methods to authenticate against the platforms themselves (which is a whole other security question, admittedly) are reasonable and were used (and still are used) for quite some time without issues.

    As for Android and security issues, I'm simply saying that to argue that security is the reason for not having API availability when one allows Android apps to connect to one's infrastructure is ridiculous. If companies want Android users to access their infrastructure and they're willing to compromise security to have that, just say so. But they should not try and contend that they're concerned with "security" and that's why they don't have APIs.

    I'm confident that, should ways to access IG, Facebook, and the rest be developed, BB10 users will be made aware.
    08-01-19 07:43 PM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar
    I'm not suggesting open APIs. However, APIs that employ security methods to authenticate against the platforms themselves (which is a whole other security question, admittedly) are reasonable and were used (and still are used) for quite some time without issues.
    Again, that was several years ago. If you allow 3rd party apps, then anything the user enters in that app is directly observable by that 3rd party developer. That's not good. People were burned on that years ago.

    Also, If you do e2e you can't easily and safely allow 3rd party devs to participate. it's technically possible, but it's not worth the effort or risk when 99% of your users can download the official apps (which is exactly what we want)

    As for Android and security issues, I'm simply saying that to argue that security is the reason for not having API availability when one allows Android apps to connect to one's infrastructure is ridiculous. If companies want Android users to access their infrastructure and they're willing to compromise security to have that, just say so. But they should not try and contend that they're concerned with "security" and that's why they don't have APIs.
    That is absurd. Of course we care about security. Allowing Android apps to connect to our services is not as bad as Crackberry addicts would have you think. At least they are using a much newer and more secure version of TLS than BB10 users will ever have. At least we can actively monitor for signs of alteration in our apps, which we couldn't do in BB10. Etc. etc. Android risks can be managed and we spend a lot of effort doing that because we all have 10s of millions or 100s of millions of customers who chose Android. Maybe in a perfect world we don't love their choice, but we're not telling them "go buy a Honda because we dont' like your phone"

    This is better than some random developer being able to track the cars we sell to customers! Or being able to see when their next service is due. We aren't sharing that information with random developers. That would be silly.

    I'm confident that, should ways to access IG, Facebook, and the rest be developed, BB10 users will be made aware.
    I'm sure that's true. It just won't ever happen, and if it did I'm not giving some random small developer whom I don't know access to all my keystrokes and my account information and all of that.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    08-01-19 07:52 PM
  25. TrumpetTiger's Avatar
    Again, that was several years ago. If you allow 3rd party apps, then anything the user enters in that app is directly observable by that 3rd party developer. That's not good.



    That is absurd. Of course we care about security. Allowing Android apps to connect to our services is not as bad as Crackberry addicts would have you think. At least they are using a much newer and more secure version of TLS than BB10 users will ever have. At least we can actively monitor for signs of alteration in our apps, which we couldn't do in BB10. Etc. etc.

    This is better than some random developer being able to track the cars we sell to customers! Or being able to see when their next service is due.



    I'm sure that's true. It just won't ever happen, and if it did I'm not giving some random small developer whom I don't know access to all my keystrokes and my account information and all of that.
    You're welcome to develop for the platform natively yourself. However, your argument about third-party developers is only applicable if the developer installs some malware or runs the app's connection through their own servers. While this is a frequent problem for Android, it has never ever been an issue for BB10 and likely wouldn't be possible for native apps given QNX.

    You are welcome to your perspective on Android apps. Unless you actively block anything below TLS 1.3 those apps and BB10 use the exact same level of TLS. As far as monitoring for signs of alteration, you couldn't do that in BB10 because it's not possible to hack native apps in the way you describe, therefore it's not an issue.

    Random developers would only have access to your data if you provided such access via API. It's possible to secure or otherwise limit such access if your back-end infrastructure supports it.

    As for third-party native apps being developed, you are welcome to use or not use those apps as you desire. I suspect, however, that you are perfectly wiling to provide access to your infrastructure to users who provide their keystrokes, account information, and all of that to Google at a bare minimum. (If you yourself utilize Google services, you also would be willing to provide your keystrokes, account information, and all of that to them.)
    08-01-19 07:59 PM
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