01-19-15 09:50 AM
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  1. slagman5's Avatar
    You are making a couple assumptions that I think you shouldn't be.

    First, you provide reasons why they might have kept the design. I only said they must have their reasons. I have no reason to assume one way or the other what they were. The main point was to question if you actually had considered if they built a version with 4 rows and made a decision not to go with that. Well, did you consider that they might have tried it both ways?

    Second, you assume the methods my which I use my Passport keyboard. Your assumptions are in fact wrong and I care not to explain all my little tricks. Also, I have mastered the art of holding down keys while typing just fine, most keyboards work this way with the shift key.

    Finally, I do find it a little odd that I expressed my opinion and you have essentially tried to refute it. Doesn't that post just above mine say something about that? Let's just be clear... In my opinion this is the best keyboard.
    Whoa whoa whoa, I need that meme, why so defensive? When did I "refute" anything? You said yourself you never used a pkb device, I simply stated why I feel you wouldn't be aware of any difference unless you've used the other before. When did I say anything against what you said? Is everything ok man? O.o

    Edit: I know the meaning of this meme doesn't apply, so I cropped it out, but this was the expression I had in my mind when I read your reply:
    Attachment 327856
    Lol

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-16-15 06:07 PM
  2. mofokey's Avatar
    Technically, there are 4 rows. One is just digital.

    This method saves space to make for a bigger 1:1 screen, innovates, and makes for a unique device.

    IMO, four physical rows would make the device way too awkward to type on - and we already know how people feel about its ergonomics

    Posted via CB10
    I'm sure you understand the OP and everyone else is talking about "physical" fourth row...

    Uniqueness or difference for its own sake... doesn't really count for anything. That wasn't the point of Passport. It was the considered difference that charmed a lot of us. Uniqueness in its own right doesn't mean anything, at least when what you care about is productivity, not making fashion statement.

    There's like more than 1 cm bezel space from the top of the device to the top of the screen... not to mention that the chin's already pretty wide too.

    In fact, the fourth physical key would've made the ergonomics better by giving you a bigger area below the screen - recall one of the main gripes about Passport is how it's "top-heavy". Moving the screen up a bit and increasing the space below the screen would've balanced that out a bit, making it more comfortable to hold.
    01-16-15 07:52 PM
  3. anon(870071)'s Avatar
    Good looking mocking. Ya, I don't mind for the entire chassis to be a tad longer so they can move the four row keyboard up to balance it out. The top bezel has plenty of room to move the screen up.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.0.1154
    Now if there was a slider that would be ace!

    Posted via CB10
    01-16-15 08:14 PM
  4. slagman5's Avatar
    Now if there was a slider that would be ace!

    Posted via CB10
    That's a whole other can of worms! Lol :-P

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-16-15 08:18 PM
  5. JCMM's Avatar
    http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/mida...-fullbleed.jpg

    Clearly enough room for numbers and/or an ALT + Shift Key.
    Just give me on of those rounded Passports! i will embrace the keyboard just like if the spacebar is positioned correctly bellow the letters. That thing looks so perfect! why this wasn't the primary design?
    01-16-15 11:28 PM
  6. Peter Johnson4's Avatar
    They wanted to use a prime number.

    Posted via CB10
    01-17-15 01:37 AM
  7. pandabear444's Avatar
    I want the 4th row too and more then likely won't buy it because I highly prize the full 4 row keyboard experience. My other friends who are die hard BB guys say the same thing. I wonder how many more units would sell if they just added the 4th row. I get the unique aspect and that it works just fine if not great, but with adding the 4th row they could have made it even better.
    01-17-15 02:33 AM
  8. Shovel Monkey's Avatar
    In response to thedose (post #23), is it all that difficult to offset the logo at the top and then move the screen up some more for your chin-piece to be bigger?

    -Can't died in the poorhouse.
    01-17-15 05:16 AM
  9. nglfmark's Avatar
    I believe the last thing I would want to do is get in a debate with either Slagman or Thedose. Respect for both. I also think you're both right. Initially using the Passport 3 row KB, I was constantly hitting the z key thinking it was the shift key and would end up with a messed up sentence. Similarly I would go to type numbers and symbols looking to press the alt key (due to muscle memory using the Q10). I was ready to toss this thing out the door and even tried to sell it. Went back to my Q10 and my brain and fingers were at ease...until I needed more screen size. Went back again to the Passport and forced myself to get used to the 3 row keyboard. After a few weeks (almost 2 months) I love it and the brain is also used to this "strange" thing. Without disputing both your logical explanations and very good justifications for 3 row + virtual 4th row or simple the good old trusted 4 row KB, I believe it's all about "time". Some adapt quickly "Thedose" and others (like me) need more time. Peace and this thread has been enjoyable. I also agree it is difficult to see sarcasm just from reading text, so I'm certain neither are really that "angry" at the other . All in a good debate.

    Posted via CB10
    andy957 and thedose like this.
    01-17-15 06:17 AM
  10. jelle_57's Avatar
    What I've read in an interview with the designers after the launch (unfortunately I can't recall the source), is that there are three main reasons for integrating a hybrid three row keyboard:

    1) Ergonomics (the device would have been bigger with a 4 row keyboard, now most tasks can still be performed one handed)
    2) Unique and innovative experience (BlackBerry needed to think out of the box and had to create an unique selling point to create a wow factor)
    3) Productivity (in my opinion, the hybrid keyboard combined with the big square screen is really usefull, except when you really want to use excel intensive)

    My experience and from the reactions I've had, I personally think that they have really done a great job in achieving the above!



    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by jelle_57; 01-17-15 at 12:15 PM.
    01-17-15 10:27 AM
  11. anon3700711's Avatar
    Just give me on of those rounded Passports! i will embrace the keyboard just like if the spacebar is positioned correctly bellow the letters. That thing looks so perfect! why this wasn't the primary design?
    I ask myself that every day. Honestly it looks a lot better than the square.

    Posted via CB10
    thedose and JCMM like this.
    01-17-15 10:27 AM
  12. anon3700711's Avatar
    Not needed. Once you get used to the touch gestures on the keyboard you'll see why there are only 3 rows.

    Posted via CB10
    The virtual row is annoying. The layout is terrible. Instead of a numberpad, the numbers should be across as a the 7th row.

    Posted via CB10
    01-17-15 10:31 AM
  13. QwertyUser4's Avatar
    The virtual row is annoying. The layout is terrible. Instead of a numberpad, the numbers should be across as a the 7th row.

    Posted via CB10
    I really wanted that extra row for numbers. would have made things so much easier. I dont mind if it was a little bigger. its a 2 handed device.

    Why didn't BlackBerry add a fourth row to the Passport?-passport-x2222.jpg
    01-17-15 04:00 PM
  14. pandabear444's Avatar
    ^ I don't think that's what most are referring too. They would just like the standard BB keyboard to have been used. A dedicated row button would be overkill.
    01-17-15 09:33 PM
  15. slagman5's Avatar
    I believe the last thing I would want to do is get in a debate with either Slagman or Thedose. Respect for both. I also think you're both right. Initially using the Passport 3 row KB, I was constantly hitting the z key thinking it was the shift key and would end up with a messed up sentence. Similarly I would go to type numbers and symbols looking to press the alt key (due to muscle memory using the Q10). I was ready to toss this thing out the door and even tried to sell it. Went back to my Q10 and my brain and fingers were at ease...until I needed more screen size. Went back again to the Passport and forced myself to get used to the 3 row keyboard. After a few weeks (almost 2 months) I love it and the brain is also used to this "strange" thing. Without disputing both your logical explanations and very good justifications for 3 row + virtual 4th row or simple the good old trusted 4 row KB, I believe it's all about "time". Some adapt quickly "Thedose" and others (like me) need more time. Peace and this thread has been enjoyable. I also agree it is difficult to see sarcasm just from reading text, so I'm certain neither are really that "angry" at the other . All in a good debate.

    Posted via CB10
    Thanks for your input, but for me personally, I know I can learn how to use anything. Rearrange the keyboard to a different configuration of the keys and eventually you'll get used to it, no question. My issue is WHY I should get accustomed to it. What advantage does it provide over the standard keyboard to justify getting comfortable with the new format. Would it make typing on other devices, all with the traditional configuration, feel less natural? Does it slow me down if I need to type multiple symbols or numbers in a row? These are all things to consider.

    I have another example of something, but I really don't want to bring up the discussion here... but it involves doing things in a way that's universal to all other types of things. And even if one particular brand/model of this device has some special way to manipulate something, if it's not the universal way, I train NOT to use it. The reason is that muscle memory is important in speed and accuracy and the philosophy I always go by is that if you ever need to use someone else's device (this unnamed object) and it's not the same brand/model as the one you've trained for, that you don't have any trouble transitioning to using that where you would if you got yourself using that special/different way your weapon does it that's not universal to all types... I hope the point can be understood even with all of these vague references to "objects" and "devices" lol.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    nglfmark and Mansoor2 like this.
    01-17-15 10:57 PM
  16. Zedd88's Avatar
    The fact is, those that argue that a fourth keyboard would have been better, all came from the traditional BlackBerry phones. True a slightly bigger device would have accommodated a fourth row. But if they had decided to add a few more millimeters to the length of the Passport, I would still prefer the three rows and add the reclaimed real estate for a longer display (making it 4:3 aspect ratio when landscaped). Why is my preference this way? Because I came from an all touch screen phone where premium is given to screen real estate.

    There is no arguing that a fourth row can make you type faster. But I honestly wouldn't have bought the Passport if almost half the phone is consumed by the keyboard plus it's chin. That's the reason why I never ever considered the Q10. A fourth row, would have just made the Passport a bigger version of the Q10. Again, this is just my preference and what ever the design team of the Passport were thinking when they came up with a three row physical keyboard we will never know. But as someone pointed out, they must have their reasons and am sure they did their homework/research.

    The reality is, this device is now a cross between a physical and an all touch device. And that is actually what makes it unique. And am sure majority of those who bought this device doesn't mind the three row + virual row combination.

    And speaking of traditional way, the traditional way is just a numeric keypad with multitaps (Nokia traditional phones), then the QWERTY keyboard of BlackBerry came out, then the Virtual keyboard of iPhone/Android, then Swiftkeys. Tradition is also relative and innovation is always present. The three row physical keyboard with capacitive touch is actually an innovation. And any innovation will need a learning curve in order for you to adapt.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Zedd88; 01-18-15 at 07:33 AM.
    thedose, andy957 and Smokeaire like this.
    01-18-15 07:21 AM
  17. Kaniberry's Avatar
    I really wanted that extra row for numbers. would have made things so much easier. I dont mind if it was a little bigger. its a 2 handed device.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I would buy that device in a heartbeat. Unless BlackBerry made the slider phone of my dreams first.

    Posted via CB10
    01-18-15 07:26 AM
  18. Hulk123's Avatar
    I really wanted that extra row for numbers. would have made things so much easier. I dont mind if it was a little bigger. its a 2 handed device.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wtf is that XD

    Posted via the CrackBerry App
    01-18-15 07:29 AM
  19. imcrackedout's Avatar
    I want the 4th row too and more then likely won't buy it because I highly prize the full 4 row keyboard experience. My other friends who are die hard BB guys say the same thing. I wonder how many more units would sell if they just added the 4th row. I get the unique aspect and that it works just fine if not great, but with adding the 4th row they could have made it even better.
    At least 5 more on my side!
    I have been back and forth at least 3 times to look at the PP and the classic, couldn't pull the trigger on either..... Had the passport been made with 4 rows, would have been instant , but now I hesitate since it really feels like I am "settling" for the design, and not falling in love with it. I know I would get used to it, but I hate getting used to things, I want it to be great from the start. I can get used to a Nexus 6 as much as I could the passport, but I want BB.
    It really is a shame that BB is either full left or full right these days, so now regrettably, I am stuck with my Q10, I love the device, but I am getting bored, I might even jump back to the Z30, which imo is the best phone blackberry ever made to date, and its 2 years old.

    I agree with you in that they could have easily kept the unique sizing, and design even with the forth row, look at the rendered photo in the previous posts, a nice phone, photoshopped by a non designer.... BB couldn't have designed one???
    Im not sure why BB was so fixated on the size of the passport, and ruined a good chance of making the "perfect" phone because of it!

    My last two cents........ The passport could have been just as unique and awesome with a 4.25, or 4 inch screen, this way they would have had a smaller profile, albeit, a small change, but it seems to be what my group gripes about, they ALL say, its just a tiny bit too big (wide) height is fine.

    I say no to hybrid keys, they stop the flow and rhythm of typing, for me,its either/or.
    Last edited by imcrackedout; 01-18-15 at 08:54 AM.
    01-18-15 08:39 AM
  20. refnor2000's Avatar
    Don't need a 4th row...plain and simple...like someone else said, 3 rows = bigger screen

    Posted via CB10
    thedose likes this.
    01-18-15 09:00 AM
  21. MrGlenn's Avatar
    A Shift and Alt key as part of the touch sensitive keyboard could cause a lot of issues with registering keypresses or moving the cursor around in unpredictable ways.
    Example: try moving the cursor using the keyboard while keeping one finger on the Z (like where it would be if you use physical Shift+Select). Doesn't work.

    A Shift and Alt key, separate from the touch sensitive part, would obviously require hardware changes which may have simply been too costly, or too cumbersome to fit properly.

    I still don't know why people in these discussions assume it has purely been an aesthetic choice by BlackBerry...

    BlackBerry Passport signed @ C0007CC89
    01-18-15 09:15 AM
  22. imcrackedout's Avatar
    A Shift and Alt key as part of the touch sensitive keyboard could cause a lot of issues with registering keypresses or moving the cursor around in unpredictable ways.
    Example: try moving the cursor using the keyboard while keeping one finger on the Z (like where it would be if you use physical Shift+Select). Doesn't work.

    I think that is more of an issue with BB designing the passport based on shape more then practicality. Had they designed the hardware around the 4 row keys and large screen, they wouldn't have had to eliminate the 4th row. They would have figured out the hardware issue of the touch sensitive pad, that's easy. It is quite clear that BB removed the 4th row due to the initial 'passport' design, which then necessitated the need to remove the row. The more I think about it, the more I realize the passports final design and result of the design was due to compromises.
    Im not saying its a terrible phone, I actually like it a lot and will most likely will buy one, I do think however that it would have been much better had they kept the 4th row.

    A Shift and Alt key, separate from the touch sensitive part, would obviously require hardware changes which may have simply been too costly, or too cumbersome to fit properly.

    I still don't know why people in these discussions assume it has purely been an aesthetic choice by BlackBerry...

    BlackBerry Passport signed @ C0007CC89
    01-18-15 09:58 AM
  23. slagman5's Avatar
    A Shift and Alt key as part of the touch sensitive keyboard could cause a lot of issues with registering keypresses or moving the cursor around in unpredictable ways.
    Example: try moving the cursor using the keyboard while keeping one finger on the Z (like where it would be if you use physical Shift+Select). Doesn't work.

    A Shift and Alt key, separate from the touch sensitive part, would obviously require hardware changes which may have simply been too costly, or too cumbersome to fit properly.

    I still don't know why people in these discussions assume it has purely been an aesthetic choice by BlackBerry...

    BlackBerry Passport signed @ C0007CC89
    Easy solution to that, make the alt and shift keys not have the capacitive feature. But anyway...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    01-18-15 10:00 AM
  24. JCMM's Avatar
    I don't know if any of you guys already saw this, but this is the way i think the Passport would be.

    https://www.behance.net/gallery/1765...Bezel-version)

    https://www.behance.net/gallery/1765...unded-version)
    01-18-15 11:05 AM
  25. donnation's Avatar
    3 row + 4th row as digital = larger screen.
    Doesn't the virtual keyboard in essence make the screen smaller?
    01-18-15 04:33 PM
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