07-13-15 02:43 PM
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  1. Poi25's Avatar
    EULA is for software; you're BlackBerry device is hardware. If what you're having is software issues, you still have to do a hardware warranty exchange, so none of the EULA applies in that case because it is still deemed a hardware failure causing a software issue; and since you bought the unit from a 3rd party, you inadvertently forfeit the hardware warranty since it only applies to the original purchaser through an authorized re-seller.

    Posted via CB10
    I was just trying to find a clear-cut definition of "end user" in BlackBerry's warranty documents, which I still can't find. Only mention was in the EULA, which of course has to do with software. I still don't consider the seller who never used the device an "end user." I considered myself the end user, the person who ultimately used the device for the first time.
    06-15-15 12:13 AM
  2. ZeroBarrier's Avatar
    I was just trying to find a clear-cut definition of "end user" in BlackBerry's warranty documents, which I still can't find. Only mention was in the EULA, which of course has to do with software. I still don't consider the seller who never used the device an "end user." I considered myself the end user, the person who ultimately used the device for the first time.
    Nothing in BlackBerry's warranty will say end user, it will refer to original purchaser.

    Posted via CB10
    06-15-15 02:36 AM
  3. cbvinh's Avatar
    I was just trying to find a clear-cut definition of "end user" in BlackBerry's warranty documents, which I still can't find. Only mention was in the EULA, which of course has to do with software. I still don't consider the seller who never used the device an "end user." I considered myself the end user, the person who ultimately used the device for the first time.
    I think the lawyers who drafted the warranty documents probably thought about this, as they use the wording "original end-user purchaser" not "end user" in the hardware warranty. The extra words "original" and "purchaser" excludes you, as you're not the original purchaser.

    Search for "blackberry hardware warranty". This returns a page with the hardware warranty text for different countries - "Hardware Limited Warranty - US - BlackBerry". Click on the country as appropriate.

    For the U.S.:

    "Manufacturer Warranty Coverage. This manufacturer’s Limited Warranty sets forth the warranty
    responsibilities of BlackBerry Limited and its affiliates (“BlackBerry”) regarding BlackBerry branded hardware products and accessories manufactured by or on behalf of BlackBerry (“BlackBerry Device”). BlackBerry warrants to the original end-user purchaser of a new BlackBerry Device (“YOU”), that the BlackBerry Device will be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period that commences on the date of original purchase by YOU and continuing for the following specified period of time for each applicable type of BlackBerry Device (the "Warranty Period"). This Limited Warranty is not transferable by YOU.

    (i) For a BlackBerry Handheld smartphone the Warranty Period is one (1) year. Please contact the
    retailer from whom YOU purchased the BlackBerry Device on how to obtain customer support for your
    BlackBerry Device.

    ...
    "

    Further along, it says:

    "Warranty Exclusions and Limitations. This Limited Warranty does not apply (as determined by BlackBerry):

    ...

    viii) if YOU are unable to provide proof of purchase evidencing that YOU are the original purchaser of the BlackBerry Device and the date and place of original purchase."

    which clearly says the warranty is void if you can't prove you're the "original purchaser of the BlackBerry Device and the date and place of original purchase."

    The Canadian warranty reads the same.
    06-15-15 03:00 AM
  4. Poi25's Avatar
    I think the lawyers who drafted the warranty documents probably thought about this, as they use the wording "original end-user purchaser" not "end user" in the hardware warranty. The extra words "original" and "purchaser" excludes you, as you're not the original purchaser.
    I really can't believe how convoluted and ******* ridiculous their warranty information is.

    What you are referring to is from the document found here: http://us.blackberry.com/content/dam...es_English.pdf

    But there is also another one here: http://us.blackberry.com/content/dam...SA_English.pdf

    The second PDF is found by visiting the same looking page with a list of countries. The second link is the one I posted that never once refers to "end-user purchaser," but simply "end-user." But regardless of the wording, END-USER signifies that the person used the device. If someone buys the device but never uses it, they can't be an end-user. That just goes against the definition of an end-user. If BlackBerry wants to be clear, they need to say ORIGINAL PURCHASER. Or simply state warranty applies to person who originally purchased the device, regardless if they used it or not.

    It's as if they purposefully put out multiple versions of this limited warranty to confuse and muddy the waters, so that they can cherrypick the version to approve or deny incidents on a case by case basis.

    This **** pisses me off. I submitted a long, well written response to PayPal to hopefully get my money back and purchase covered. This is what the seller said when I opened the claim:

    “Buyer modified device by unlocking it without authorization, creating misuse for 60 days on unauthorized network, which clearly voids the warranty and damages NEW item as described and delivered per policy.”
    I tore him a new one in a well written affidavit considering that whole statement is just ******* ridiculous. I unlocked the device directly through AT&T, so there goes the "unauthorized" argument. Software unlocking doesn't damage hardware, so there goes that argument. Anyways, there's no way a string of digits entered into a text box could damage the keyboard. I included PDF's of US Code regarding warranties, FCC Device Unlock Guide, and CTIA Consumer unlock policies to construct a nice 3-page rebuttal.

    I'm over this whole fiasco. Never again am I buying a carrier branded device to unlock, or a new device through any channels but official ones. When I buy used I assume that I have no warranty, and go into the purchase with that perspective. It is NOT worth the ******* headache if something goes wrong.

    As it stands at the moment, I have a $540 AT&T Passport that I bought new 63 days ago that double and triple types to hell and back, and I am unable to obtain a hardware warranty through any official channels. I'm completely stuck unless PayPal approves my purchase protection claim.
    Last edited by Poi25; 06-15-15 at 03:52 AM.
    AcADIeN likes this.
    06-15-15 03:36 AM
  5. cbvinh's Avatar
    I really can't believe how convoluted and ******* ridiculous their warranty information is.

    What you are referring to is from the document found here: http://us.blackberry.com/content/dam...es_English.pdf

    But there is also another one here: http://us.blackberry.com/content/dam...SA_English.pdf

    The second PDF is found by visiting the same looking page with a list of countries. The second link is the one I posted that never once refers to "end-user purchaser," but simply "end-user." But regardless of the wording, END-USER signifies that the person used the device. If someone buys the device but never uses it, they can't be an end-user. That just goes against the definition of an end-user. If BlackBerry wants to be clear, they need to say ORIGINAL PURCHASER. Or simply state warranty applies to person who originally purchased the device, regardless if they used it or not.

    It's as if they purposefully put out multiple versions of this limited warranty to confuse and muddy the waters, so that they can cherrypick the version to approve or deny incidents on a case by case basis.
    I think you've unfortunately searched and found a link to an old document, as it defines "RIM" and the company. When RIM officially became BlackBerry, they probably had all their warranty language updated, as found in the first pdf.

    Why didn't they delete it from their servers so that it won't show up in searches? That might be a legal issue or left for historical reasons, since it is a legal document that once existed. Besides, when a new warranty document is drafted, it usually supercedes the previous one.

    This **** pisses me off. I submitted a long, well written response to PayPal to hopefully get my money back and purchase covered. This is what the seller said when I opened the claim:

    I tore him a new one in a well written affidavit considering that whole statement is just ******* ridiculous. I unlocked the device directly through AT&T, so there goes the "unauthorized" argument. Software unlocking doesn't damage hardware, so there goes that argument. Anyways, there's no way a string of digits entered into a text box could damage the keyboard. I included PDF's of US Code regarding warranties, FCC Device Unlock Guide, and CTIA Consumer unlock policies to construct a nice 3-page rebuttal.
    The seller obviously doesn't want to return the money and he/she probably didn't warranty the device with you. Did the eBay ad say he/she was willing to accept returns? If you found the reasoning flimsy, it's because he/she is willing to find whatever reason possible to /not/ have to return the money, just like you're trying to find whatever reason to have BlackBerry repair your Passport at no cost to you.

    How would you respond to the person you sold the Passport on Swappa when/if he/she develops a hardware problem? Would you accept the return and return the money? What's your warranty obligation?

    I'm over this whole fiasco. Never again am I buying a carrier branded device to unlock, or a new device through any channels but official ones. When I buy used I assume that I have no warranty, and go into the purchase with that perspective. It is NOT worth the ******* headache if something goes wrong.

    As it stands at the moment, I have a $540 AT&T Passport that I bought new 63 days ago that double and triple types to hell and back, and I am unable to obtain a hardware warranty through any official channels. I'm completely stuck unless PayPal approves my purchase protection claim.
    It's a lesson learned for all of us.

    You could start looking up ways to fix it yourself. The double type Q10 folks have been pretty resourceful at that.
    06-15-15 04:31 AM
  6. Poi25's Avatar
    The seller obviously doesn't want to return the money and he/she probably didn't warranty the device with you. Did the eBay ad say he/she was willing to accept returns? If you found the reasoning flimsy, it's because he/she is willing to find whatever reason possible to /not/ have to return the money, just like you're trying to find whatever reason to have BlackBerry repair your Passport at no cost to you.

    How would you respond to the person you sold the Passport on Swappa when/if he/she develops a hardware problem? Would you accept the return and return the money? What's your warranty obligation?

    It's a lesson learned for all of us.

    You could start looking up ways to fix it yourself. The double type Q10 folks have been pretty resourceful at that.
    Yes, the eBay listing did accept returns. I like to think that I hold myself to high standards, so yes, depending on the specific situation I would be willing to accept a return and take responsibility. If I received a claim out of the blue, 8 months after the sale, from the Swappa buyer that had one sentence "buttons are broken," I would be less inclined to support him. But if the buyer contacted me immediately when the problem began, notified me with emails every few days, initiated a support ticket through the manufacturer, provided me with updated responses, gave me links to YouTube videos, showed me forum posts, and composed emails in thoughtful and insightful language showing true responsibility and worthwhile attempts to solve the situation his/herself (like I've done), I think I'd take that into consideration; especially since the problem began in the first month of owning a device.

    I would at the very least be truthful about not being able to find the original purchase receipt and forthcoming about that. The seller responded, "I cannot find it." Bull****. And I would not lie, grabbing straws to try and support my case if I did decide to fight it, like attempting to say that unlocking a device directly through a carrier damages it and voids warranties. That's just false, and 5 minutes of google searching for legal documents proves that.

    I will fix the device if PayPal doesn't approve my claim. I'll have no choice at the point, which is sad.
    06-15-15 10:38 AM
  7. shawnreum's Avatar
    Other than getting a return covered or warranty, I'd suggest to start looking for a keyboard replacement.

    Just a thought.

    Posted via CB10
    06-15-15 09:46 PM
  8. gipper69's Avatar
    If your device is just carrier unlocked, then you're in the same boat as all carrier-branded customers: at the mercy of the carrier. It's not just a BlackBerry thing, as you've stated. It's a carrier thing and not something you can blame the device maker. They'll release updates and you'll get them... if you're not in the U.S.
    That's at the heart of my annoyance. The relationship of the end-user to the device is made more complicated and gives ample opportunity for finger-pointing sleaze by this triangular model. There isn't a clear line of responsibility, particularly with regard to warranty and service of devices. Most device manufacturers (and sadly, so does BB) do their best to not provide direct support to the end users, instead farming it out to re-sellers (including carriers) that are more often than not quite clueless on the technical aspects of the device. For low-volume devices, the carrier is often less than capable, and many of the smaller re-sellers flat-out don't have the wherewithal to support. And in most marketplaces, the smaller re-sellers seldom realize - and almost never clearly disclose - that the brand new, never-opened products are being sold without warranty, because the manufacturer has outsourced warranty to the original seller. It's a model unlike most others in consumer electronics, and leaves the end-user hung out to dry.

    At the end of the day, though, it's the BB brand that gets trashed by gaps in support and warranty finger-pointing, and fix/upgrade delays. The BB management may or may not ultimately care about that - or fully appreciate how negatively that impacts their bottom line and long-term consumer perception. Some manufacturers plan on brand obsolescence - and these days there isn't a whole lot of loyalty to any manufacturer. I guess this is just another consequence in our collective pursuit of the lowest price possible.
    .
    06-16-15 11:17 AM
  9. cbvinh's Avatar
    That's at the heart of my annoyance. The relationship of the end-user to the device is made more complicated and gives ample opportunity for finger-pointing sleaze by this triangular model. There isn't a clear line of responsibility, particularly with regard to warranty and service of devices. Most device manufacturers (and sadly, so does BB) do their best to not provide direct support to the end users, instead farming it out to re-sellers (including carriers) that are more often than not quite clueless on the technical aspects of the device. For low-volume devices, the carrier is often less than capable, and many of the smaller re-sellers flat-out don't have the wherewithal to support.
    I can't imagine this entire model evolving over a discussion between the carriers and manufacturers to screw over the customer. The carriers have more brick and mortar. They're frontline with the customer. It makes sense for the customer to return device to the carrier for troubleshooting and replacement. The carrier doesn't need to be 100% knowledgeable about repairing the device. They just need to determine if the problem is beyond them and just replace and send the device back to the manufacturer. Most customers, I would guess, would prefer to have the device replaced on the spot rather than go through troubleshooting over the phone, then shipping devices back and forth.

    Apple realized that their representation wasn't great, before they became what they are today. They invested in stores to give themselves better representation. It's paid off. An Apple customer knows that he/she can stop by a store and get things troubleshooted and replaced on the spot. If an Apple user isn't near an Apple store, then he/she goes through what other users go through, dealing with carriers, phone/online support and shipping devices back and forth.

    And in most marketplaces, the smaller re-sellers seldom realize - and almost never clearly disclose - that the brand new, never-opened products are being sold without warranty, because the manufacturer has outsourced warranty to the original seller. It's a model unlike most others in consumer electronics, and leaves the end-user hung out to dry.
    In the particular situation in this thread, the OP bought a device from a seller who wasn't going to warranty the device. The device was bought directly to AT&T, who /would/ warranty with the seller, not OP. Both AT&T and BlackBerry don't allow warranty transfers, so the OP is out-of-luck with both policies. That doesn't mean that AT&T and BlackBerry went out of their way to draft policies to screw over the OP and those like him. The warranty policy is that AT&T is responsible for the warranty period since it's an AT&T-branded device. The device was sold as new and never activated on AT&T, but the device was clearly not sold through AT&T directly to the OP.

    At the end of the day, though, it's the BB brand that gets trashed by gaps in support and warranty finger-pointing, and fix/upgrade delays. The BB management may or may not ultimately care about that - or fully appreciate how negatively that impacts their bottom line and long-term consumer perception. Some manufacturers plan on brand obsolescence - and these days there isn't a whole lot of loyalty to any manufacturer. I guess this is just another consequence in our collective pursuit of the lowest price possible.
    BB has gone out of its way to replace people's devices in the past. They've replaced PlayBooks well past the warranty period. They just can't cover everyone. There was one instance where a Passport user demanded that they send him a replacement Passport without having to send the defective one back first or allow them to take his credit card as collateral. He said they did it. If you look up warranty policies for companies, such as Apple even, they don't do that kind of thing. It opens them up to be scammed out of a device. It's unclear whether that user actually returned the defective unit.
    06-16-15 12:11 PM
  10. Drenegade's Avatar
    Obviously you can prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, right? Cause if not, you're engaging in slander. Accusing someone of offloading dutty goods without proof is not a good look.

    I could just as easily tell you to stop frequenting Hastings and get yourself clean because your inability to think before typing makes me believe you're a fiend. But without proof, it all just talk and insult.

    Get your head right before posting dirt like this again...you just embarrassed Van City.

    -- Passport, Virgin Mobile (Toronto)
    Typical Ontarioan. Settle down, Princess.

    Posted via CB10
    06-16-15 12:45 PM
  11. Poi25's Avatar
    Typical Ontarioan. Settle down, Princess.

    Posted via CB10
    I guess you thoroughly enjoy making a fool of yourself.
    06-16-15 12:49 PM
  12. siung6's Avatar
    Maybe you could ask the seller where he originally obtain the device, and request a copy of receipt from the specific store. Just maybe.

    Posted via CB10
    06-16-15 01:13 PM
  13. MobileMadness002's Avatar
    So glad I live in europe... here we have a mandatory 2 year warranty from the seller...

    Posted via CB10
    How about if the sellers name is Joe and he uses his car trunk as a store front.
    06-16-15 01:22 PM
  14. anon9347040's Avatar
    Typical Ontarioan. Settle down, Princess.

    Posted via CB10
    Physician, heal thyself. You should have heeded your own "settle down" advice before you started flipping out and slandering someone; accusing them of selling dutty goods.

    Settle down, Princess? Man, please. You couldn't be anymore pathetic.
    06-16-15 03:00 PM
  15. Poi25's Avatar
    Maybe you could ask the seller where he originally obtain the device, and request a copy of receipt from the specific store. Just maybe.

    Posted via CB10
    Well the PayPal dispute is already in progress, so I'm sure at this point he's not receptive to helping me out anymore. Regardless, the seller said he can't find the original purchase receipt and has no way to get another copy (translation: I obtained the device from an unknown source, likely a random dude I don't know, so even if I wanted to get the receipt I wouldn't know where to begin).

    I did try contacting AT&T but of course they won't give me a copy of the receipt. They don't "have the ability" to do that. Riiight.
    06-16-15 03:47 PM
  16. MobileMadness002's Avatar
    Well the PayPal dispute is already in progress, so I'm sure at this point he's not receptive to helping me out anymore. Regardless, the seller said he can't find the original purchase receipt and has no way to get another copy (translation: I obtained the device from an unknown source, likely a random dude I don't know, so even if I wanted to get the receipt I wouldn't know where to begin).

    I did try contacting AT&T but of course they won't give me a copy of the receipt. They don't "have the ability" to do that. Riiight.
    Not that they do not have the ability, the receipt would contain other information such as the persons method of payment, name, address, etc. So unfortunately they are not permitted to provide the receipt to anyone other than the original purchaser.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    06-16-15 03:57 PM
  17. scorepion's Avatar
    How about if the sellers name is Joe and he uses his car trunk as a store front.
    If you buy from this Joe, it is your own fault...

    Posted via CB10
    06-17-15 05:44 PM
  18. MobileMadness002's Avatar
    If you buy from this Joe, it is your own fault...

    Posted via CB10
    Joe is a jerk anyways. I would not buy from him at all. There would be absolutely no warranty.
    06-17-15 05:56 PM
  19. Poi25's Avatar
    Just want to update everyone:

    PayPal reviewed my affidavit, copy of device unlock directly from AT&T, and supporting cell phone unlocking law documentation and decided that they would approve my claim. They agreed with my statement that if the device was truly brand new and never used, the seller should have possession of and maintain original purchase documents proving its condition.

    I will be boxing this Passport up, returning it to the seller, and ordering a replacement Passport directly from Amazon. I will be taking pictures/video of packing process, just in case the seller tries to pull "he didn't return the device" shenanigans. I wouldn't put it past him at this point considering his attempt to pass off lies as to how I "damaged" the phone.

    Lesson learned.
    06-18-15 07:50 PM
  20. anon9347040's Avatar
    Just want to update everyone:

    PayPal reviewed my affidavit, copy of device unlock directly from AT&T, and supporting cell phone unlocking law documentation and decided that they would approve my claim. They agreed with my statement that if the device was truly brand new and never used, the seller should have possession of and maintain original purchase documents proving its condition.

    I will be boxing this Passport up, returning it to the seller, and ordering a replacement Passport directly from Amazon. I will be taking pictures/video of packing process, just in case the seller tries to pull "he didn't return the device" shenanigans. I wouldn't put it past him at this point considering his attempt to pass off lies as to how I "damaged" the phone.

    Lesson learned.
    Good to hear, boss. Glad to see things worked out in your favor.

    My cousin just got at me a couple of days ago. BlackBerry replaced his faulty LCD screen (lines and discoloration) and returned it after two weeks. The phone was tested on the spot at the Rogers location he dropped it off at, only to find that the earpiece speaker is not working. Blackberry is trying to blame him for the speaker fault, calling it customer damage. The nutjobs at the BlackBerry repair depot must have forgotten that the earpiece speaker is part of the LCD subassembly and the only way anyone can physically get at that speaker is when the phone is dismantled. I believe their own technicians did a faulty job on the repair and messed the speaker up during the repair. Now they are now trying to pass the buck.

    My cousin called me and told me the story and now I am ready to go down there to the depot personally and fire them up real good. There's nothing I hate worse then scammy service personnel. Righteous indignation and persistence are key when dealing with warranty issues. I was willing to cut Blackberry service a little slack but no longer. My late mom always told me before I got beat for doing something stupid the following: If you don't want to hear, you'll have to feel. These jokers better be ready to feel. You can't just take $5 or $600 off of someone and then jerk around with them when it comes time for them to avail themselves of warranty service. Not gonna happen.
    06-18-15 08:19 PM
  21. Poi25's Avatar
    One more post for everyone. Amazon charges sales tax where I live, which would tack another $50 on top of the brand new price, which is more expensive than other sellers. I called BlackBerry and had a representative send me an email confirming that if you purchase a BlackBerry device through Amazon.com but from a reseller on the site (not Amazon themselves), you are still covered by the one year manufacturer's warranty.

    Attached is a copy of the email. If anyone ever gets pushback from BlackBerry for this specific situation, maybe this will come in handy. I can always provide the original email as well.

    So yes, you can purchase a new BlackBerry from a different seller on Amazon and still be covered by warranty. Don't understand how this is any different from the fiasco I just went through but whatever.

    When does warranty apply, and when does it not?-selleramazon.jpg
    06-18-15 08:49 PM
  22. robsteve's Avatar
    The letter from BlackBerry states warranty is handled at the point of purchase. They are probably saying phones purchased from third parties on Amazon are covered if the third parties are authorized resellers, such as a Carrier store or I suppose one of the wholesalers like BrightPoint or Ingram Micro.

    Point of purchase being the seller on Amazon, not Amazon. The difference being sold by Amazon or fullfilled by Amazon.
    06-24-15 02:55 PM
  23. Poi25's Avatar
    The letter from BlackBerry states warranty is handled at the point of purchase. They are probably saying phones purchased from third parties on Amazon are covered if the third parties are authorized resellers, such as a Carrier store or I suppose one of the wholesalers like BrightPoint or Ingram Micro.

    Point of purchase being the seller on Amazon, not Amazon. The difference being sold by Amazon or fullfilled by Amazon.
    Did you not read the whole sentence? I spent 20 minutes on the phone MAKING SURE that it would be covered. I explained it to the lady: new phone, being sold on Amazon.com, but from a seller other than Amazon.

    "...a BlackBerry Device that has been purchased with a seller from Amazon will be eligible of 1 year warranty for any factory defect."

    Pretty clear to me.
    06-24-15 05:41 PM
  24. anon(870071)'s Avatar
    Honestly, the only SURE way would be to buy it through ShopBlackBerry, Amazon or carrier because when it comes down to it, it all depends on the person on the other end of the phone who will either let you pass or deny you. Some people don't care so much and will let you slide......... others...... not so much.
    Agreed B! I use to work for a major carrier in customer support and yes if the device is carrier locked I think you get better support. BUT I certainly feel the worse for those that are unfairly covered by the warranty. They should be covered as well.

     Passport SQW100-1 / leak 10.3.2.2204 Rogers Wireless Posted via CB
    07-13-15 02:43 PM
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