05-04-18 04:39 PM
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  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Technically they held a majority back when the smartphone market was a couple hundred thousand business (enterprise & prosumers) users at most. Apple made the next gen smartphone, a consumer product that everyone wanted to have, and Google jumped right in too. What BlackBerry never really had was a consumer smartphone product that appealed to the masses. At this point Apple sell more phone in a quarter than it took BlackBerry to sell in five years in their prime.

    BB10 had potential as an OS... but it needed a few more years of development to reach real "greatness". In the end, it was the wrong choice for BlackBerry in 2010... but really their only choice as Android wasn't ready for security at that point. Best BlackBerry could have done with Android in 2010 was something along the lines of Silent Circle, a hardened but forked version that would not be app Google Play friendly. But it might have allowed them to remain as an enterprise supplier....
    All the different solutions and timelines people refer to for BB10 to succeed keep ignoring the fundamental problems for BB, first, source of revenue to replace BIS and second, economic size to compete with Apple, Google and Microsoft. BB was doomed in hardware because it was never really their business to begin with.
    03-09-18 08:51 AM
  2. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Technically they held a majority back when the smartphone market was a couple hundred thousand business (enterprise & prosumers) users at most.
    Don't have time to find the stats, but I'm positive it was Windows and Symbian who dominated in the early days.
    03-09-18 08:55 AM
  3. conite's Avatar
    All the different solutions and timelines people refer to for BB10 to succeed keep ignoring the fundamental problems for BB, first, source of revenue to replace BIS and second, economic size to compete with Apple, Google and Microsoft. BB was doomed in hardware because it was never really their business to begin with.
    Agreed. BlackBerry was of course going to lose BIS revenue either way, but Apple and Google had other revenue sources beyond the physical hardware, and BB10 did not.

    To me this is all a lifecycle issue. BlackBerry got caught with an ageing platform - BBOS, and in hindsight, there was nothing around to replace it fast enough to keep the developers. The battle was lost in a heartbeat - and the other ecosystems entrenched.

    Everything BlackBerry did (in the handset space) since 2008 was just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
    03-09-18 09:07 AM
  4. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Agreed. BlackBerry was of course going to lose BIS revenue either way, but Apple and Google had other revenue sources beyond the physical hardware, and BB10 did not.

    To me this is all a lifecycle issue. BlackBerry got caught with an ageing platform - BBOS, and in hindsight, there was nothing around to replace it fast enough to keep the developers. The battle was lost in a heartbeat - and the other ecosystems entrenched.

    Everything BlackBerry did (in the handset space) since 2008 was just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
    Of all the options BB had since 2008, the business path followed until 2012 was brilliant. They dragged out BIS revenue and let it actually grow until about that point. The promise of BB10 development allowed BB to keep adding consumers into BBOS much longer than if they'd even switched to Android. It almost seems like BB10 was subterfuge. Instead of "Losing the Signal", it should have been called "Sending out False Signals".
    03-09-18 09:36 AM
  5. conite's Avatar
    Of all the options BB had since 2008, the business path followed until 2012 was brilliant. They dragged out BIS revenue and let it actually grow until about that point. The promise of BB10 development allowed BB to keep adding consumers into BBOS much longer than if they'd even switched to Android. It almost seems like BB10 was subterfuge. Instead of "Losing the Signal", it should have been called "Sending out False Signals".
    I honestly don't know what I would have done in BlackBerry's shoes.

    Android was not ready to be secured (at the earliest) until KitKat in late 2013, with product that may have been deliverable mid-2014.

    So what to do between 2008 and 2014?

    Squeezing BIS for all it was worth is all I can think of.

    Holding off until KitKat was probably the best bet (avoiding the BB10 debacle) - but they would not have really known that prior to 2013. Nor would they have bought QNX otherwise.
    03-09-18 09:44 AM
  6. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I honestly don't know what I would have done in BlackBerry's shoes.

    Android was not ready to be secured (at the earliest) until KitKat in late 2013, with product that may have been deliverable mid-2014.

    So what to do between 2008 and 2014?

    Squeezing BIS for all it was worth is all I can think of.

    Holding off until KitKat was probably the best bet (avoiding the BB10 debacle) - but they would not have really known that prior to 2013. Nor would they have bought QNX otherwise.
    And most would have written them off during the waiting period. I think a number of enterprise users stuck with BlackBerry. Of course back then it was a "game" as to when BB10 would arrive. They kept delaying and making excuses (like processor won't be ready).... No one in 2010 taught that it would take them 3-1/2 years, especially seeing how fare along the PlayBooks OS was (once it had email).

    In the end the only solution would have been to be innovative and had a "modern" OS out before Apple and Google. No one could have foretold how quickly BBOS would be made outdated...

    But then we all knew one day we'd have PC in the palm of our hands....
    03-09-18 09:54 AM
  7. strajar's Avatar
    Will I still be able to even use my passport, or will I have to get a new phone? (will probably sidegrade to a flip phone)
    I use my passport for the following things: Calls, texts, web browsing, calendar, camera, maps, spotify app, reddit app. Both Spotify and Reddit app are from the sideloaded google play I believe.
    When I needed to use a phone made in 2007 as a temporary back up device, I just inserted the sim card and turned on the device. Everything worked. Your Passport will work for as long as it's physically capable of doing it. Some services might not work, like BB World or Protect, but why would you need those anyway? My Passport is still running like a champ in 2018 with no lags or signs of being several years old. Don't listen to the "jumping ship crowd" and use your exquisite Passport to the fullest for years to come!
    03-11-18 06:16 PM
  8. strajar's Avatar
    There are about 2.5 billion smartphone users around the globe - most of whom could never afford to pay extra for OS software development. The rest just prefer not to.
    What the rest 5 billion use? Given the fact that probably 2 billion of them have no access to electricity and basic means of normal life, and another 1 billion still living in the stone age, there are some 2 billion people using some form of tele-communication. Rotary phones? Messenger pigeons? Writing letters? Or just old fashion green/red button phones? Smart phones didn't really changed the world for the better...
    03-11-18 06:36 PM
  9. KAM1138's Avatar
    If the most important element of a BB10 phone for you is the PKB, the KEYone is excellent. For me, however, the PKB is incidental. I like the VKB and PKB equally. What I will miss about the BB10 phones is the clean and efficient user interface. For me, Android has been a step backwards. Useful for apps, but I don't need apps for work beyond the stock apps in BB10, which I prefer to Android by a wide margin.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    I share this view. I enjoyed BB10 on my Z10 with a VKB, which I found excellent. I remember when other people thought so too.

    I think the passport PKB is top of my list but Blackberry VKB and non-passport PKB are both steps down, for me. But both still pretty good.

    The apps...never meant much to me when compared to what I use the phone for 99% of the time--communication.

    All that said...I would try a non BB10 passport style keyboard device for sure.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-18 08:56 PM
  10. KAM1138's Avatar
    I think anyone limping along with BB10 right now, with all of the hoops that have to be jumped through and all of the workarounds that have to be finessed, can handle Android. At least the HUB, the calendar, and the contacts app will be familiar.
    Never had to 'jump through hoops' with BB10 used since release.

    Maybe that applies to some people, but not to someone happy with a product functioning exactly as it is supposed to out of the box.

    You are right about BlackBerry Android being the NEXT closest thing, but this 'software company' still can't seem to get the Hub working as well and that matters to me...and maybe 100 other people. It is very clear BlackBerry just doesn't have much interest in that software.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-18 09:29 PM
  11. KAM1138's Avatar

    There's not much point in complaining about something that isn't going to change.
    Thankfully there are people in the world that don't subscribe to this mindset. I wonder if this was the same type of thinking that some old duo of BlackBerry CEOS relied on leading to a massive collapse of a company.


    Posted via CB10
    03-12-18 09:57 PM
  12. conite's Avatar
    Never had to 'jump through hoops' with BB10 used since release.

    Maybe that applies to some people, but not to someone happy with a product functioning exactly as it is supposed to out of the box.

    You are right about BlackBerry Android being the NEXT closest thing, but this 'software company' still can't seem to get the Hub working as well and that matters to me...and maybe 100 other people. It is very clear BlackBerry just doesn't have much interest in that software.

    Posted via CB10
    Jumping though hoops depend on your app needs.

    BlackBerry still has to develop software within the constraints of Android and/or Material Design.
    03-12-18 09:59 PM
  13. KAM1138's Avatar
    Jumping though hoops depend on your app needs.

    BlackBerry still has to develop software within the constraints of Android and/or Material Design.
    Certainly. I am one of the users who really doesn't need third party apps.

    So for people like me, BB10 has and may continue to be a fine option for a little longer.

    I hope (but don't expect) that the Hub will get better before my passports brick.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-18 10:08 PM
  14. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Thankfully there are people in the world that don't subscribe to this mindset. I wonder if this was the same type of thinking that some old duo of BlackBerry CEOS relied on leading to a massive collapse of a company.


    Posted via CB10
    This was the same type of thinking of those who loved Symbian, WebOS, MeeGo, BBOS and on and on. You can continue to remain optimistic so long as it works for you, but eventually, like every lover of a failed OS that came before, like it or not you shall move on.

    While you may take this as an attack, it is not. Simply a reality. You can subscribe to the mindset the earth is flat, but provided the inevitable perspective from enough distance, the truth is inescapable.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    03-12-18 10:10 PM
  15. KAM1138's Avatar
    This was the same type of thinking of those who loved Symbian, WebOS, MeeGo, BBOS and on and on. You can continue to remain optimistic so long as it works for you, but eventually, like every lover of a failed OS that came before, like it or not you shall move on.

    While you may take this as an attack, it is not. Simply a reality. You can subscribe to the mindset the earth is flat, but provided the inevitable perspective from enough distance, the truth is inescapable.
    Not sure what you think you are responding to, but it isn't what I'm talking about. Rather, I was speaking to the fact that claiming something in tech ISN'T going to change is ludicrous.

    I just find it ironic that this mindset seems to match what caused Blackberry to delay innovation. The arrogance that what they were currently doing would remain.


    Posted via CB10
    03-12-18 10:32 PM
  16. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Not sure what you think you are responding to
    More the entirety of your posts here, and the topic of the thread. The words you chose struck a theme. Tech changes. The human nature that drives commercialism doesn't. There are some who will spend to not compromise, but while that works for some products, it's not viable in the consumer smartphone market.
    03-12-18 10:59 PM
  17. KAM1138's Avatar
    More the entirety of your posts here, and the topic of the thread. The words you chose struck a theme. Tech changes. The human nature that drives commercialism doesn't. There are some who will spend to not compromise, but while that works for some products, it's not viable in the consumer smartphone market.
    Oh...where at any point did the 'entirety of my posts here' indicate anything resembling your first response to me?

    If you read my posts it is pretty clear that I like BB10, but have no expectation it will be continuing. I just prefer to use it while I can.

    Not that I would expect you or anyone to know (from old posts) but I own a DTEK50--which I thought would be an inexpensive way to try BlackDroid or whatever it's called. Pretty disappointing, but I did try it. I also recently posted about my interest in the KeyOne from a hardware standpoint.

    If you really wanted you could probably find me expressing a 'wish' (not a realistic expectation') from the past that BB10 would continue (and also that WebOS would have). That is still my 'wish' but it won't happen. If you think that's my claim, you are mistaken.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-18 11:11 PM
  18. KAM1138's Avatar
    A funny fact...my posting here is being done on my passport using the CB10 app and getting notifications in the BB10 Hub.

    Yep, still working for now.

    Posted via CB10
    03-12-18 11:17 PM
  19. Mojarch's Avatar
    It would have never led to success. BB never had the economic resources to compete with Apple, Google or Microsoft. If BB10 was ever viable, any of their competitors would have bought to either build (Microsoft) or competitively shutdown (Apple or Google).

    The biggest reason for BB10 failure with BB as the developer is that BB10 eliminated BIS revenue. BB could never have been successful without monetization sources to help support a hardware business. Apple, Google and Microsoft have other products that generate BILLIONS of $$ in revenues. All BB had was BBOS and the BIS revenue it generated.

    Android represented the only potential solution because it was the only viable OS developed and offered free. Even that would have been unlikely years earlier because it doesn't solve the problem of lost BIS revenue.
    As long as I know Google get a small fee for phone have been sold by android so not completely free!
    Where BIS should work? On BB platform!
    If they started BB10 a little while sooner they get most of what been lost, back!

    Posted via CB10
    03-14-18 01:32 PM
  20. Mojarch's Avatar
    This is the fallacy that provides the biggest hurdle to having a rational discussion. If you believe they were at the top and lost it all, it's impossible to make sense of what happened. You need a strong foundation of the history, that while the leader in security, they never held close to a majority of the smartphone market, in order to correctly view the past, and appreciate the direction for the future.
    I can recall they had more than 85% of us market (and some percentage of EU market) and than lost it bits by bits!
    If I am wrong please lighten me up!

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Mojarch; 03-14-18 at 02:12 PM.
    03-14-18 01:35 PM
  21. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I can recall they had more than 85% of us market (and some percentage of EU market) and than lost it bits by bits!
    If I am wrong please lighten me up!

    Posted via CB10
    Stats for the early days of smartphones are like hunting bigfoot, LoL. Here's the oldest data I can find:


    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/64-...worldwide-2006

    This clearly shows Symbian as the leader, and Palm losing second place to RIM from 2005 to 2006.

    This information is also supported by this article.

    Here's the chart starting in 2007, again showing Symbian as the dominant platform.


    By Smartmo - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=22720596

    Now if the US was the only market, then yes, BlackBerry held a slim majority for a short period of time.



    I'd love to say BlackBerry was at one time #1 . Makes for a "great" story, of massive rise and hard crash, but it simply isn't true. Look at their sales numbers. When they peaked, they had already dropped off the chart globally.



    If anyone can find data to dispute my post, I'd happily defer to them.
    03-15-18 08:03 AM
  22. MagnumPI123's Avatar
    @ Troy

    I would really like to hear from someone about the first paragraph of your post from a legal perspective. It makes no sense that the company would be able to simply kill all the phones running under BB10 and get away with that.
    I don't see how they can possibly make a move like that, killing the functionality of a phone which will anger so many users for no real reason. It would give Blackberry such a bad name, who would buy their products when after a while they would just stop supporting them which would lead to them losing the ability to work anymore, they are going to have so many angry customers and likely face lawsuits and tons of bad press. Is it really costing them that much to keep BB10? I can understand dropping paid app support or further dropping app development at some point but making a move to kill their phones ability to function or most functions is hard to believe. There are still plenty of Passports for sale to this day, some going for $300-400+ and not one of the sellers is warning that the phone may not be able to function in just 2 years or so. I can still use my old flip phones and 2 old Nokia's, at least most of their functions with no real issues even though there is no longer any support for them. I have older flatscreens and blu ray players that still function, play current programs and blu rays just fine despite there no longer being firmware updates. If there is even a chance a Passport or BB10 phone may not be able to function after this date under any circumstance I think it would be extremely important for Blackberry to develop a patch so they don't have a lot of really angry vocal customers, lawsuits, bad press, etc.
    03-15-18 10:06 AM
  23. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    they are going to have so many angry customers and likely face lawsuits and tons of bad press.
    Those lawsuits wouldn't get very far, and there will be so few users at that point that there won't be very much press at all.

    Is it really costing them that much to keep BB10?
    Any loss, at this point, is unnecessary. If it's costing BlackBerry money and bringing in ZERO revenue, why keep the servers running, especially for devices that will have been discontinued for 3 years at that point?

    There are still plenty of Passports for sale to this day, some going for $300-400+ and not one of the sellers is warning that the phone may not be able to function in just 2 years or so.
    That's on those sellers, not BlackBerry. BlackBerry announced the discontinuation of its phones a year ago, so any store that's still selling them is not an authorized reseller.

    If there is even a chance a Passport or BB10 phone may not be able to function after this date under any circumstance I think it would be extremely important for Blackberry to develop a patch so they don't have a lot of really angry vocal customers, lawsuits, bad press, etc.
    It'll be a tempest in a teapot. Those phones will have reached End of Support, so BlackBerry will no long have any obligation to do ANYTHING with them.
    BigBadWulf and the_boon like this.
    03-15-18 03:29 PM
  24. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I don't see how they can possibly make a move like that, killing the functionality of a phone which will anger so many users for no real reason. It would give Blackberry such a bad name, who would buy their products when after a while they would just stop supporting them which would lead to them losing the ability to work anymore, they are going to have so many angry customers and likely face lawsuits and tons of bad press. Is it really costing them that much to keep BB10? I can understand dropping paid app support or further dropping app development at some point but making a move to kill their phones ability to function or most functions is hard to believe. There are still plenty of Passports for sale to this day, some going for $300-400+ and not one of the sellers is warning that the phone may not be able to function in just 2 years or so. I can still use my old flip phones and 2 old Nokia's, at least most of their functions with no real issues even though there is no longer any support for them. I have older flatscreens and blu ray players that still function, play current programs and blu rays just fine despite there no longer being firmware updates. If there is even a chance a Passport or BB10 phone may not be able to function after this date under any circumstance I think it would be extremely important for Blackberry to develop a patch so they don't have a lot of really angry vocal customers, lawsuits, bad press, etc.
    BlackBerry exited consumer business when it exited hardware. BlackBerry as company has nothing to sell you as consumer.
    03-15-18 03:33 PM
  25. chiliray 661's Avatar
    I just bought a passport. I know I am late to the party. I hope they keep this thing FUNCTIONAL. This just what I need for work. If it does go away I may buy a New model BlackBerry.
    03-16-18 06:14 AM
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