[conite]

Who are you calling not dumb? It better not be me!

Posted with my trusty Z10

You're not following. The comparison was to iOS - which is admittedly "easier" to use.

My initial post (#94) was in response to this:
"I think many more BlackBerry users would be happier with iOS than the complexity of learning Android."

[bb10adopter111]

You're not following. The comparison was to iOS - which is admittedly "easier" to use.

My initial post (#94) was in response to this:
"Personally I prefer the complexity and customization capable on Android... But I've seen folks struggle with Android whereas iOS seems to be more intuitive (or just simple)."

Conite, I'm kidding you. I understood your post, but you also made the assumption that current users of BB10 were "limping along" and "jumping through hoops" with "workarounds." That's what I was responding to.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

You're assuming that people using BB10 now are installing Android apps by jumping through hoops and using workarounds. I think that's a very small subset of BB10 users, most of whom have never heard of Cobalt or know what an APK or BAR file is.

I think it's more likely that most BB10 users are using it close to stock with a few apps from BlackBerry World. They may or may not be carrying another phone or tablet for apps.

The jump to Android or iOS isn't very appealing unless you want to install 3rd party apps. Sure, a huge number of people want that, but the assumption that the remaining BB10 users would be happier on iOS or Android is pretty presumptuous.

Posted with my trusty Z10

I bet the majority of millions of once active BB10 users were "stock"... as enterprise usually doesn't allow installation from unknown sources. And anyone truly interested in Security sure wouldn't install apps from some guy that is a hacker.... or 3rd party apps stores.

The assumption isn't that they'll be happier without BB10, only that at some point they'll have to eventually move on. And that those are the options.... At this point hopefully they know people on both platforms and can make their own comparison to see what best fits their actual needs.

[conite]

Conite, I'm kidding you. I understood your post, but you also made the assumption that current users of BB10 were "limping along" and "jumping through hoops" with "workarounds." That's what I was responding to.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Well, neither of us will ever know the breakdown of course.

But I spend the majority of my time here helping BB10 users with Android apps.

[bb10adopter111]

Well, neither of us will ever know the breakdown of course.

But I spend the majority of my time here helping BB10 users with Android apps.

Yes, and you do an amazing job, too! I agree with you that any of the users around here who are installing APKs and patching with Cobalt's tools could handle Android without difficulty.

I just know that there are also users like my wife who are simply satisfied with BB10 and don't care about the stuff it doesn't do. She's a database and Web site administrator who traded her iPhone for BB10 in 2015 and just wants to know "sometime before it stops working" when she has to deal with the hassle of learning another OS. I recently learned that, having used the phone for three years, she's never installed a single app.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[G_Unit MVP]

The fact that the majority of the world accepts it means nothing to me.

That resumes perfectly how I feel every single time someone starts a phrase with "the majority of the people...."

[Troy Tiscareno]

I bet the majority of millions of once active BB10 users were "stock"... as enterprise usually doesn't allow installation from unknown sources. And anyone truly interested in Security sure wouldn't install apps from some guy that is a hacker.... or 3rd party apps stores.

That assumes that a significant number of BB10 sales were to enterprise/government... but that's not the reality. BBOS was certainly widely adopted, but BB10 never was. Even the companies and agencies that did adopt it mostly adopted it as an option (usually along with the iPhone), and most users chose the iPhone.

Also, the highest level of adoption was from the Z10/Q10 days. By the time the Classic was released, most big companies/agencies were already looking to move away from BB to iOS/Android. The only real exception would be in Canada, and mostly companies based around Toronto, where BB was really the "home team" and had lots of brand loyalty for that reason.

[Emaderton3]

I'm not entirely clear on with thread you are referring to, but I am pretty sure you are referring to a 3rd party launcher that customizes the Android experience.

Again though, I'm not saying I want it to function exactly like BB10, not at all. And I definitely understand that you can customize the heck out of Android and get it functioning how you want it, including putting some of your own BB10-esque looks or feels, should you chose to.

What I'm saying is that, for me, 'what looks and feels' like a BlackBerry is a device that already has everything I want it to do packaged into it. The software is from a company I trust and it does what I need it to, straight out of the box.

I understand that the whole move BlackBerry made to Android was to save on development costs... I just assumed that they would still be putting a fair bit into ongoing development and I'm not really seeing that. There is no more excitement for 'new updates' on Android than there is for those of us on BB10. It could be different.

"BlackBerry updated their launcher again?! What other new features did they add?"

BlackBerry is just being pretty lazy with making their Android offering a true BlackBerry experience.

And, unfortunately, all it would take is Apple to announce the iHub and the new iPhones would be pretty tempting. So, to respond honestly to where us 'diehards' will go...? I really don't know yet.

If you don't want it to act like BB10, then what is the true BlackBerry experience that you want on the Android phones then?

[conite]

If you don't want it to act like BB10, then what is the true BlackBerry experience that you want on the Android phones then?

From what I can muster - stock apps. He is willing to give up features for familiarity. If I understood correctly.

[Emaderton3]

From what I can muster - stock apps. He is willing to give up features for familiarity. If I understood correctly.

And what are those exactly? I have a calculator, radio, file manager, notes, tasks, etc.

[bb10adopter111]

My perspective is similar. I have no interest in downloading cheap software from companies who have minimal accountability for bugs or security flaws. I'm willing to trust Google, BlackBerry, Microsoft, etc. with my data, because they have as much or more at risk as I do. And I know that there are plenty of talented smaller Devs out there. However, there are many more horribly coded apps than great ones, and I don't have the time or interest to discern which are which.

That's what I want to pay Google or BlackBerry to do for me.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[conite]

My perspective is similar. I have no interest in downloading cheap software from companies who have minimal accountability for bugs or security flaws.

This isn't a very fair assessment of some leading software developers who have been around as long or longer, and have spent orders of magnitude more on their apps than BlackBerry ever did - with FAR greater support.

For instance, VideoLan has been around for 17 years, and one of their apps - VLC - essentially defines the media player experience on a multitude of platforms.

Privacy policy:
"This privacy policy covers the use of the 'VLC for Android', 'VLC for WinRT' and 'VLC for iOS' / 'VLC for tvOS' applications.
It may not be applicable to other software produced or released by VideoLAN.

VideoLAN does not collect any statistics, personal information, or analytics from our users, other than built in mechanisms that are present for all the mobile or embedded applications in their respective main distribution channels.

The mobile or embedded versions of 'VLC' do allow for videos to be played via various network transports. Cookies are not stored at any point. Authentication credentials can be stored optionally on the user's local device upon the user's explicit request. On iOS and tvOS, authentication credentials can be shared across devices using proprietary encryption mechanisms provided by the host operating system, dubbed iCloud Keychain. VideoLAN does not have access to any information stored within."

This is just one example out of many.

[bb10adopter111]

I'll accept your assessment, because you know a lot more than I do about who's who in the app world, and I'll be the first to say I KNOW there are excellent and even exceptional dev teams working in mobile apps.

However, my frame of reference for selecting software vendors is that the procurement process should be a bit more extensive than reading a few online reviews and downloading from an app store.

My problem is not with the developers. It's with the business model.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[3165dwayne]

If you're willing to go to a flip phone then you never needed a smartphone.

[Mecca EL]

Yes, and you do an amazing job, too! I agree with you that any of the users around here who are installing APKs and patching with Cobalt's tools could handle Android without difficulty.

I just know that there are also users like my wife who are simply satisfied with BB10 and don't care about the stuff it doesn't do. She's a database and Web site administrator who traded her iPhone for BB10 in 2015 and just wants to know "sometime before it stops working" when she has to deal with the hassle of learning another OS. I recently learned that, having used the phone for three years, she's never installed a single app.

Posted with my trusty Z10

If your wife EVER discovers Pinterest....

[bb10adopter111]

If your wife EVER discovers Pinterest....

Well, she maintains some social networks on her PC, but has said repeatedly that she "doesn't want that time-wasting crap" on her phone. She probably spends 2-3 hours a week on social media at her desk and at home.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[bb10adopter111]

If you're willing to go to a flip phone then you never needed a smartphone.

No way I could live without email on my phone. Why would I want to go back to 2002?

Posted with my trusty Z10

[TheBirdDog]

From what I can muster - stock apps. He is willing to give up features for familiarity. If I understood correctly.

It's not about familiarity per se, and it's definitely not about being willing to give up features. Unless you are counting SnapChat as a 'feature' of Android.

The general, 'BlackBerry Experience' that I am describing is back to that software/hardware marriage that just feels like the perfect balance of form and function.

I'm not trying to further a debate of BB10 vs Android... I'm simply trying to say that I don't feel that BlackBerry has done any more than the bare minimum for making their devices stand-out from others in terms of the software. Yes, the Hub is their best piece and it is there, as well as the invaluable DTEK app for monitoring and controlling permissions. But the software side of things there is still an awfully large void. Yes, there are many wonderful things available in the Google Play store to fix that... but I would have hoped for more exclusive software straight from BlackBerry.

The real problem for me is that I expected BlackBerry to actually push the bar of what Android can do. Take the OS and make it even better... set the bar for the other OEMs and make it clear why the BlackBerry software is worth the premium of purchasing a BlackBerry device. They certainly had the ability to do more than they have and that leaves a feeling of lackluster commitment to their mobile market at all. Again, the problem is probably in my expectations... but I feel that they were still somewhat warranted and I know that I'm not the only one with that sentiment. "BlackBerry has completed its transition into a software company," "we are about the smart in the phone." etc...

So, from my perspective, yes, the physical keyboard is fantastic and a good enough reason to get a KEYone, but that's not the only reason that I have been a BlackBerry user through the years. The Z10 is actually my daily driver so I really can go with or without the physical keyboard. If / when I do move to a BlackBerry branded Android device, the main 'reason' would probably be to avoid paying a subscription fee to use the Hub. And, that's a pretty lame reason, but I don't see much other attraction than that. [over other Android devices]

[bb10adopter111]

It's not about familiarity per se, and it's definitely not about being willing to give up features. Unless you are counting SnapChat as a 'feature' of Android.

The general, 'BlackBerry Experience' that I am describing is back to that software/hardware marriage that just feels like the perfect balance of form and function.

I'm not trying to further a debate of BB10 vs Android... I'm simply trying to say that I don't feel that BlackBerry has done any more than the bare minimum for making their devices stand-out from others in terms of the software. Yes, the Hub is their best piece and it is there, as well as the invaluable DTEK app for monitoring and controlling permissions. But the software side of things there is still an awfully large void. Yes, there are many wonderful things available in the Google Play store to fix that... but I would have hoped for more exclusive software straight from BlackBerry.

The real problem for me is that I expected BlackBerry to actually push the bar of what Android can do. Take the OS and make it even better... set the bar for the other OEMs and make it clear why the BlackBerry software is worth the premium of purchasing a BlackBerry device. They certainly had the ability to do more than they have and that leaves a feeling of lackluster commitment to their mobile market at all. Again, the problem is probably in my expectations... but I feel that they were still somewhat warranted and I know that I'm not the only one with that sentiment. "BlackBerry has completed its transition into a software company," "we are about the smart in the phone." etc...

So, from my perspective, yes, the physical keyboard is fantastic and a good enough reason to get a KEYone, but that's not the only reason that I have been a BlackBerry user through the years. The Z10 is actually my daily driver so I really can go with or without the physical keyboard. If / when I do move to a BlackBerry branded Android device, the main 'reason' would probably be to avoid paying a subscription fee to use the Hub. And, that's a pretty lame reason, but I don't see much other attraction than that. [over other Android devices]

You sound a lot like me. I appreciate the same focused approach to devices that BlackBerry always provided. Alas, I also agree that the issue is your expectations, for a couple of reasons.

1) Android moves too quickly and independently for BlackBerry to make a dent in its usability issues. The Android team has no interest in helping OEMs build starkly differentiated devices. They prefer consistency and really prefer that users use Google's app store rather than stock, integrated software.

2) BlackBerry has no financial incentives to push the envelope. It's very unlikely that they make very much on the licensing fees from BlackBerry Mobile, and are unlikely to take chances with what is really someone else's product.

The company that could push the envelope a bit is BlackBerry Mobile, but they'd still be heavily constrained by the nature of Android.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[conite]

It's not about familiarity per se, and it's definitely not about being willing to give up features. Unless you are counting SnapChat as a 'feature' of Android.

The general, 'BlackBerry Experience' that I am describing is back to that software/hardware marriage that just feels like the perfect balance of form and function.

I'm not trying to further a debate of BB10 vs Android... I'm simply trying to say that I don't feel that BlackBerry has done any more than the bare minimum for making their devices stand-out from others in terms of the software. Yes, the Hub is their best piece and it is there, as well as the invaluable DTEK app for monitoring and controlling permissions. But the software side of things there is still an awfully large void. Yes, there are many wonderful things available in the Google Play store to fix that... but I would have hoped for more exclusive software straight from BlackBerry.

The real problem for me is that I expected BlackBerry to actually push the bar of what Android can do. Take the OS and make it even better... set the bar for the other OEMs and make it clear why the BlackBerry software is worth the premium of purchasing a BlackBerry device. They certainly had the ability to do more than they have and that leaves a feeling of lackluster commitment to their mobile market at all. Again, the problem is probably in my expectations... but I feel that they were still somewhat warranted and I know that I'm not the only one with that sentiment. "BlackBerry has completed its transition into a software company," "we are about the smart in the phone." etc...

So, from my perspective, yes, the physical keyboard is fantastic and a good enough reason to get a KEYone, but that's not the only reason that I have been a BlackBerry user through the years. The Z10 is actually my daily driver so I really can go with or without the physical keyboard. If / when I do move to a BlackBerry branded Android device, the main 'reason' would probably be to avoid paying a subscription fee to use the Hub. And, that's a pretty lame reason, but I don't see much other attraction than that. [over other Android devices]

But there is absolutely no way that Blackberry can compete against the likes of VLC, Solid Explorer, Piktures, etc. These products are infinitely better than anything Blackberry had ever put forward on BB10 or BBOS. You're asking for Blackberry to do something (again) that they NEVER actually did in the past.

[TheBirdDog]

But there is absolutely no way that Blackberry can compete against the likes of VLC, Solid Explorer, Piktures, etc. These products are infinitely better than anything Blackberry had ever put forward on BB10 or BBOS. You're asking for Blackberry to do something (again) that they NEVER actually did in the past.

Actually, it's the opposite... I was hoping that they would continue exactly what they did in the past.

BBOS came a long long way in its development.

So did BB10.

I was hoping that the same thing would happen with Android as a new beginning. But it feels like development has already ended and now it's just security and maintenance... the 'new' features are left entirely to other developers. BlackBerry 'the software company' has their focus elsewhere.

[howarmat]

But there is absolutely no way that Blackberry can compete against the likes of VLC, Solid Explorer, Piktures, etc. These products are infinitely better than anything Blackberry had ever put forward on BB10 or BBOS. You're asking for Blackberry to do something (again) that they NEVER actually did in the past.

This exactly. BB never has been the best at any of the software they made. They just were the only real option on BB10. They had link which was pretty good and probably was one the best software products they made for a phone but they rest got the job done but not much more. Heck BB have released some of their apps on the android store and they all have mediocre reviews for the most part. There are too many well established developers already that make top notch apps that BB again would be picking from the scraps that aren't worth their time to pursue.

[bb10adopter111]

But there is absolutely no way that Blackberry can compete against the likes of VLC, Solid Explorer, Piktures, etc. These products are infinitely better than anything Blackberry had ever put forward on BB10 or BBOS. You're asking for Blackberry to do something (again) that they NEVER actually did in the past.

I don't think he's expecting BlackBerry to offer best-in-class apps like you're describing across the board at all. That's what app stores are good for. What's frustrating for some of us long-time BlackBerry users is the fact that adding third party apps is REQUIRED to perform essential tasks.

Personally, it feels like buying a car only to find out it has no steering wheel or climate controls. To continue the car analogy, I expect the app store to be an "aftermarket" for upgrades and customizations, not a mandatory first stop when setting up my phone.

I don't blame BlackBerry. In think that's the Android model.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[TheBirdDog]

I don't think he's expecting BlackBerry to offer best-in-class apps like you're describing across the board at all. That's what app stores are good for. What's frustrating for some of us long-time BlackBerry users is the fact that adding third party apps is REQUIRED to perform essential tasks.

Personally, it feels like buying a car only to find out it has no steering wheel or climate controls. To continue the car analogy, I expect the app store to be an "aftermarket" for upgrades and customizations, not a mandatory first stop when setting up my phone.

I don't blame BlackBerry. In think that's the Android model.

Posted with my trusty Z10

This is it exactly.

To use another analogy, it's like the software equivalent of "batteries not included" or "some assembly required." Which is NOT what a BlackBerry device used to be like.

And I agree that this is more of the Android model. What I was hoping with BlackBerry's venture into Android was that they would push a different model where a more comprehensive software suite were pre-installed. If BlackBerry's Android were uniquely their own. But, to my dissatisfaction, BlackBerry's Android... is just regular old Android.

You can see what I mean by CB members in uproars when we found out the Priv and maybe the DTEK devices have seen their OS updates come to an abrupt end. I was hoping that updates from BlackBerry would be more than just monthly security patches and, if this were the case, it would be of less importance which Android version you had because BlackBerry's software more than has you covered...

Maybe I'm wrong and that's exactly what will happen if the new BlackBerry Mobile offerings gain some traction... however, I don't really see them investing more development into it than they already have, especially if it's making them money already.

I'm sure John Chen had a pretty good idea of how moving to Android would get them off the hook and allow them to actually create a new source of revenue rather than taking ongoing losses with handsets. Unfortunately, for the end user, we aren't getting the same bang for our buck.

[conite]

I don't think he's expecting BlackBerry to offer best-in-class apps like you're describing across the board at all. That's what app stores are good for. What's frustrating for some of us long-time BlackBerry users is the fact that adding third party apps is REQUIRED to perform essential tasks.

Personally, it feels like buying a car only to find out it has no steering wheel or climate controls. To continue the car analogy, I expect the app store to be an "aftermarket" for upgrades and customizations, not a mandatory first stop when setting up my phone.

I don't blame BlackBerry. In think that's the Android model.

Posted with my trusty Z10

But you're looking at it backwards. The ONLY reason that Blackberry offered some of those apps before was because there was no alternative available. As a result, Blackberry was forced to provide some mediocre solutions.