[TheBirdDog]

Definitely seem so, unless they smarten up their act

"Smarten up" is relative.

From a shareholders perspective, the company has done amazing things with their turnaround. And, like Chuck said, they are far more invested in the automotive industry now than they are handsets.

Anyway, these things evolve quickly. I'll be damned if we don't see the Internet evolve in our lifetime and hopefully, at some point, we'll be reminiscing about 'apps' the way we do about phones with cords plugged into them.

I mean, after they automate cars, they're going to have to put something useful into those screens since we won't have to drive while we're in there.

[plumsauce]

Speaking of shareholders, they should find it a bit strange that as a software company, they are in a branding deal with emtek that lets them build hardware under the BB brand, but it uses android which brings in no licensing revenue, whereas BB10 would attract licensing revenues.

There is also the fact that the core OS on many vehicles is now, or will be QNX. The automotive gateway protecting the network is also QNX. When connecting iOS or Android to a QNX based infotainment system, they have to run licensed BB code.

Think of how much more seamless it could be to connect using BB10.

I don't touch a phone in the car, but I am vastly outnumbered by those that do judging from just looking around.

Maybe there is a business in offering alternative end user purchased BB10 downloads to run on other platforms.

BTW, even on a device that is to run as a barebones device in the future, it is probably best to remove the device from BB PROTECT given that at some point, a reload with an autoloader becomes impossible because the phone is tied to a bbid with blackberry protect enabled.

Of course, at some point a wipe is neccesary if only because BB keeps your entire usage history on the phone even if the user has in effect hidden the data by "deleting" it in the UI. That's why people have mysteriously high "system storage" over time that cannot be reduced except by a wipe. I didn't say so. NIST published a document making this statement in a blackberry forensics presentation.

[bb10adopter111]

I think the software is where they want it to be, and I don't see significant changes coming.

We have a really nice HUB, keyboard shortcuts, a productivity tab for peeking, and an app that displays and allows you to interact with the security and permission posture of the device.

No need to clutter things with other "BB10" features that would appeal to almost no one.

The Android Hub is nice, but not as nice as it is in BB10, IMHO. There are fewer full integrations than in BB10, even though there are many more partial integrations that function like the notification tray. Without that deep level of integration, it's hard to get real work done in the Hub the way one can in BB10.

Moreover, even with email, which is fully integrated, the Android Hub is cluttered with colors, formatting and other superfluous controls that needlessly complicate the writing interface.

Android seems to encourage a "more is always better" approach where deep integration is secondary to the kinds of long bulleted feature lists that marketers like to tout.

Saying that Slack is integrated into the Hub, when you can't even get notifications from multiple accounts and can't reply to a simple message without opening the Slack app is just marketing speak. Unlike email, no one could actually use the Hub to manage Slack communications.

Maybe that's all others expect from Android. But I have no interest in spending my day switching between apps just to communicate. With BB10, it's actually easier to use the Hub than to use a PC for communication, just like it was on BBOS. With Android, there's almost no function that works better than it does on a PC.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[conite]

The Android Hub is nice, but not as nice as it is in BB10, IMHO. There are fewer full integrations than in BB10, even though there are many more partial integrations that function like the notification tray. Without that deep level of integration, it's hard to get real work done in the Hub the way one can in BB10.

Moreover, even with email, which is fully integrated, the Android Hub is cluttered with colors, formatting and other superfluous controls that needlessly complicate the writing interface.

Android seems to encourage a "more is always better" approach where deep integration is secondary to the kinds of long bulleted feature lists that marketers like to tout.

Saying that Slack is integrated into the Hub, when you can't even get notifications from multiple accounts and can't reply to a simple message without opening the Slack app is just marketing speak. Unlike email, no one could actually use the Hub to manage Slack communications.

Maybe that's all others expect from Android. But I have no interest in spending my day switching between apps just to communicate. With BB10, it's actually easier to use the Hub than to use a PC for communication, just like it was on BBOS. With Android, there's almost no function that works better than it does on a PC.

Posted with my trusty Z10

None of this speaks to what I wrote though.

[bb10adopter111]

None of this speaks to what I wrote though.

I was responding to "We have a really nice Hub." by qualifying how "nice" it is to use.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[TheBirdDog]

None of this speaks to what I wrote though.

I feel that a fully integrated Hub is exactly the opposite of "clutter" on your Android. Not having to open the 'app drawer' and staying inside of the Hub to respond to messages over several different platforms is invaluable for its convenience. The Hub was originally intended so for so much more than just a place to consolidate your notifications and manage your emails. You know, like an actual MESSAGING HUB.

And a central place to control all of your notifications across every app at an OS level would make things so simple and improve the efficiency of actual using and adjusting your device. The DTEK app seems like it should be able to 'DTEKt' AND adjust settings, that would make it exponentially more useful.

And the file manager I can't help but keep coming back to. The way that it should be integrated into the OS and the fact that BlackBerry used to be synonymous with 'for business' and that seems about as essential as a calculator on a mobile device. There is no way that a simple, efficient, and fully functional file manager could be considered bloatware by anyone. And the fact that this is missing from BlackBerry's Android software is a bit of a red flag.

I just wish that BlackBerry would have by now, and *hopefully* still may put more into their Android software than they have. We're not asking that they attempt to make it 'more like BB10'. It's about making it function more like a BlackBerry. Something that we all see IS possible on Android... but is it going to get there? Is it going anywhere at all?

[conite]

I feel that a fully integrated Hub is exactly the opposite of "clutter" on your Android. Not having to open the 'app drawer' and staying inside of the Hub to respond to messages over several different platforms is invaluable for its convenience. The Hub was originally intended so for so much more than just a place to consolidate your notifications and manage your emails. You know, like an actual MESSAGING HUB.

And a central place to control all of your notifications across every app at an OS level would make things so simple and improve the efficiency of actual using and adjusting your device. The DTEK app seems like it should be able to 'DTEKt' AND adjust settings, that would make it exponentially more useful.

And the file manager I can't help but keep coming back to. The way that it should be integrated into the OS and the fact that BlackBerry used to be synonymous with 'for business' and that seems about as essential as a calculator on a mobile device. There is no way that a simple, efficient, and fully functional file manager could be considered bloatware by anyone. And the fact that this is missing from BlackBerry's Android software is a bit of a red flag.

I just wish that BlackBerry would have by now, and *hopefully* still may put more into their Android software than they have. We're not asking that they attempt to make it 'more like BB10'. It's about making it function more like a BlackBerry. Something that we all see IS possible on Android... but is it going to get there? Is it going anywhere at all?

Solid Explorer, for instance, is infinitely more useful and integrated than the feeble BB10 file manager.

I use an app to bring the HUB up with a swipe from the bottom left corner of the screen.

I understand you want more than a central location for app notifications, but it will never be more than that, as most apps do not use public APIs anymore. At the very least, it is arguably the best email client on Android. It also eliminates the need for a whole bunch of app icons on the homescreen.

DTEK monitors AND provides a central location to modify app permissions. It is invaluable to me.

As I wrote earlier, apart from small incremental changes, the app suite won't change a whole lot.

[Mojarch]

What history is there? BBMo/TCL is only selling two devices and been in business for a year. Success for them already exists in other markets under different brands they already own.

BBMo/TCL isn't rebuilding some BB phone behemoth rising like some phoenix from the smoldering ashes.

If anything, success for BB will be surpassing it's fellow countrymen in the USA market with carrier distribution.

Well I think BBMo/TCL knows its way around they try small view point like rebuilding the brand by 1 or 2 phone but at best they could offer at the time(you know the first impression of any thing if be successful enough and had happen to be accepted by customers that brand will be come popular like bull**** iPhone and iOS have done in very early days)
So blackberry by having at most 2 device active in market is able to offer better support and stuff.

Posted via CB10

[Mojarch]

Deleted!

[bb10adopter111]

As I wrote earlier, apart from small incremental changes, the app suite won't change a whole lot.

Without public APIs, there really isn't a lot more that BlackBerry developers could do to integrate 3rd party services with the Hub. I think your description of the Hub's benefits are accurate--its good for email, provides a single place to see messages in an organized way, and serves as a shortcut to other apps.

Personally, I don't find the Hub on Android to be the same compelling feature that it is on BB10, so the fact that it's unlikely to change makes it harder for me to embrace Android. I'm frankly having a hard time finding anything that my Android device does better than the other tools available to me.

The obvious exception would be things I don't do at all, like FB or SnapChat that integrate the camera, GPS or other mobile phone features. I can absolutely see the value of Android for that.


Posted with my trusty Z10

[TheBirdDog]

Solid Explorer, for instance, is infinitely more useful and integrated than the feeble BB10 file manager.

I use an app to bring the HUB up with a swipe from the bottom left corner of the screen.

I understand you want more than a central location for app notifications, but it will never be more than that, as most apps do not use public APIs anymore. At the very least, it is arguably the best email client on Android. It also eliminates the need for a whole bunch of app icons on the homescreen.

DTEK monitors AND provides a central location to modify app permissions. It is invaluable to me.

As I wrote earlier, apart from small incremental changes, the app suite won't change a whole lot.

I'm aware that you can find all of these things via 3rd party sources... but I feel like some of them really should be there out of the box.

A file manager just seems like one that would make sense for BlackBerry to have done themselves. As do the gestures baked in to the launcher, at least as a customizable option.

And it seems I was unaware about DTEK being able to customize permissions. That's good to hear...

I basically just feel like a lot of what BlackBerry has brought to Android feels like the bare minimum amount of effort on their part. Don't get me wrong, I would rather a few things that are polished than a bunch of half-baked software. I just feel like they have so much more they could do with their software to differentiate from the rest of the brands running Android that they could really have a shot about getting some street cred again.

“BlackBerry is no longer just about the smartphone, but the smart in the phone."

Remember that statement from John Chen? I guess it was more clever than sincere and it may have inspired more hope than it actually warranted. It seems that the reality is that 'BlackBerry is about other things than the smartphone industry. They dabble with the 'smart in the phone' because it's like an old hobby for them.'

[conite]

I'm aware that you can find all of these things via 3rd party sources... but I feel like some of them really should be there out of the box.

A file manager just seems like one that would make sense for BlackBerry to have done themselves. As do the gestures baked in to the launcher, at least as a customizable option.

And it seems I was unaware about DTEK being able to customize permissions. That's good to hear...

I basically just feel like a lot of what BlackBerry has brought to Android feels like the bare minimum amount of effort on their part. Don't get me wrong, I would rather a few things that are polished than a bunch of half-baked software. I just feel like they have so much more they could do with their software to differentiate from the rest of the brands running Android that they could really have a shot about getting some street cred again.

“BlackBerry is no longer just about the smartphone, but the smart in the phone."

Remember that statement from John Chen? I guess it was more clever than sincere and it may have inspired more hope than it actually warranted. It seems that the reality is that 'BlackBerry is about other things than the smartphone industry. They dabble with the 'smart in the phone' because it's like an old hobby for them.'

The security enhancements are the "smart" in the phone (kernel, boot, and system file protections, along with DTEK).

The app suite is available to anyone on Android who wants it.

The KEYᵒⁿᵉ and Motion do come with a basic file manager (called Files) along with the Locker. Also exclusive is the BlackBerry vkb of course - which is pretty "smart".

[bb10adopter111]

The security enhancements are the "smart" in the phone (kernel, boot, and system file protections, along with DTEK).

The app suite is available to anyone on Android who wants it.

The KEYᵒⁿᵉ and Motion do come with a basic file manager (called Files) along with the Locker. Also exclusive is the BlackBerry vkb of course - which is pretty "smart".

IMO, the BlackBerry VKB alone would make the KEYone and Motion my preferred Android phones. The same goes for the DTEK app. On Lollipop, DTEK couldn't edit permissions, but it does a great job on M and N.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[TheBirdDog]

The security enhancements are the "smart" in the phone (kernel, boot, and system file protections, along with DTEK).

The app suite is available to anyone on Android who wants it.

The KEYᵒⁿᵉ and Motion do come with a basic file manager (called Files) along with the Locker. Also exclusive is the BlackBerry vkb of course - which is pretty "smart".

By that metric, they were far more about the 'smart in the phone' and less about smartphones with BBOS and BB10 sans DTEK.

However, I know what you mean, and I'm not saying that the things that BlackBerry has brought to their Android devices aren't good or perhaps even great. It's just the obvious things that *could* be there and aren't that are not only disappointing but, let's face it, BlackBerry has commitment issues and that, in turn, has left some of us to have our doubts. If it were clear that they are "all in" on making software for Android, this discussion wouldn't be happening.

Is the BlackBerry Virtual Keyboard exclusive? I could have sworn I've heard a few folks say they have it on non-BlackBerry devices.

And basic file manager is brought over from TCL. As far as I understand, BlackBerry had nothing to do with its development and it pretty much IS a 3rd party app. What I see missing there is BlackBerry's stamp of security and trust in file management which is not a small missing piece of their software portfolio.

Anyway, I think Chuck hit the nail on the head earlier when he said that BlackBerry Mobile is not focusing on getting the BB10 conversions. And I feel like that's actually an oversight. "WE ARE THE NICHE!" I mean, literally, we are the ones who were [/ are] loyal to the brand more than anyone. We are the ones who not only loved BB10 but most of us probably have had a long history with BlackBerry. And, when deciding on a device upgrade, it was always a no-brainer: BlackBerry.

When BB10 came out, it was easy to get excited about. It was easy to jump aboard. It wasn't perfect, but many of the very things we felt were missing from BBOS were before long brought over. For those of us who were early adopters of BB10, we know that it felt like it was being actively developed. It was probably only the 3rd party support (or lack of) that killed BB10. Now I'm wondering if it won't be the opposite that eventually leads to the demise of BB's Android experiment. Now they seem to be leaning too hard on 3rd party support while the native apps just aren't there...

Us 'diehards' are not only holding on to our BB10 devices for this long because we resist change. Rather, I suppose it's because we don't like to compromise on certain things. And there are certain things that BB10 undeniably does better, even today. BlackBerry Mobile could bring a lot more to their devices on the software side and, in doing so, they would be focusing on and further developing their niche rather than ignoring it.

[conite]

By that metric, they were far more about the 'smart in the phone' and less about smartphones with BBOS and BB10 sans DTEK.

However, I know what you mean, and I'm not saying that the things that BlackBerry has brought to their Android devices aren't good or perhaps even great. It's just the obvious things that *could* be there and aren't that are not only disappointing but, let's face it, BlackBerry has commitment issues and that, in turn, has left some of us to have our doubts. If it were clear that they are "all in" on making software for Android, this discussion wouldn't be happening.

Is the BlackBerry Virtual Keyboard exclusive? I could have sworn I've heard a few folks say they have it on non-BlackBerry devices.

And basic file manager is brought over from TCL. As far as I understand, BlackBerry had nothing to do with its development and it pretty much IS a 3rd party app. What I see missing there is BlackBerry's stamp of security and trust in file management which is not a small missing piece of their software portfolio.

Anyway, I think Chuck hit the nail on the head earlier when he said that BlackBerry Mobile is not focusing on getting the BB10 conversions. And I feel like that's actually an oversight. "WE ARE THE NICHE!" I mean, literally, we are the ones who were [/ are] loyal to the brand more than anyone. We are the ones who not only loved BB10 but most of us probably have had a long history with BlackBerry. And, when deciding on a device upgrade, it was always a no-brainer: BlackBerry.

When BB10 came out, it was easy to get excited about. It was easy to jump aboard. It wasn't perfect, but many of the very things we felt were missing from BBOS were before long brought over. For those of us who were early adopters of BB10, we know that it felt like it was being actively developed. It was probably only the 3rd party support (or lack of) that killed BB10. Now I'm wondering if it won't be the opposite that eventually leads to the demise of BB's Android experiment. Now they seem to be leaning too hard on 3rd party support while the native apps just aren't there...

Us 'diehards' are not only holding on to our BB10 devices for this long because we resist change. Rather, I suppose it's because we don't like to compromise on certain things. And there are certain things that BB10 undeniably does better, even today. BlackBerry Mobile could bring a lot more to their devices on the software side and, in doing so, they would be focusing on and further developing their niche rather than ignoring it.

The KEYᵒⁿᵉ is still miles closer to a BlackBerry BB10 experience on Android than anything else, so where else would a "diehard" go who isn't already hating on Android?

You're only looking at things through a narrow BB10 lense. The other features you want, no one else does. Look at the other thread - the BB10 Android launcher has only 80 customers.

[TheBirdDog]

The KEYᵒⁿᵉ is still miles closer to a BlackBerry BB10 experience on Android than anything else, so where else would a "diehard" go who isn't already hating on Android?

You're only looking at things through a narrow BB10 lense. The other features you want, no line else does. Look at the other thread - the BB10 Android launcher has only 80 customers.

I'm not entirely clear on with thread you are referring to, but I am pretty sure you are referring to a 3rd party launcher that customizes the Android experience.

Again though, I'm not saying I want it to function exactly like BB10, not at all. And I definitely understand that you can customize the heck out of Android and get it functioning how you want it, including putting some of your own BB10-esque looks or feels, should you chose to.

What I'm saying is that, for me, 'what looks and feels' like a BlackBerry is a device that already has everything I want it to do packaged into it. The software is from a company I trust and it does what I need it to, straight out of the box.

I understand that the whole move BlackBerry made to Android was to save on development costs... I just assumed that they would still be putting a fair bit into ongoing development and I'm not really seeing that. There is no more excitement for 'new updates' on Android than there is for those of us on BB10. It could be different.

"BlackBerry updated their launcher again?! What other new features did they add?"

BlackBerry is just being pretty lazy with making their Android offering a true BlackBerry experience.

And, unfortunately, all it would take is Apple to announce the iHub and the new iPhones would be pretty tempting. So, to respond honestly to where us 'diehards' will go...? I really don't know yet.

[conite]

What I'm saying is that, for me, 'what looks and feels' like a BlackBerry is a device that already has everything I want it to do packaged into it.

But by leaving it closer to stock, it can be made into what ALL people want. We no longer have to be content with the lowest common denominator solution typical of the default BlackBerry apps of old.

all it would take is Apple to announce the iHub and the new iPhones would be pretty tempting. So, to respond honestly to where us 'diehards' will go...? I really don't know yet.

But Apple ISN'T, so again I say, BlackBerry Android is still the closest experience even as is. PLUS it doesn't scare other people off either.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

But Apple ISN'T, so again I say, BlackBerry Android is still the closest experience even as is. PLUS it doesn't scare other people off either.

I think many more BlackBerry users would be happier with iOS than the complexity of learning Android.

Personally I prefer the complexity and customization capable on Android... But I've seen folks struggle with Android whereas iOS seems to be more intuitive (or just simple).

[conite]

I think many more BlackBerry users would be happier with iOS than the complexity of learning Android.

Personally I prefer the complexity and customization capable on Android... But I've seen folks struggle with Android whereas iOS seems to be more intuitive (or just simple).

I think anyone limping along with BB10 right now, with all of the hoops that have to be jumped through and all of the workarounds that have to be finessed, can handle Android. At least the HUB, the calendar, and the contacts app will be familiar.

[bb10adopter111]

The KEYᵒⁿᵉ is still miles closer to a BlackBerry BB10 experience on Android than anything else, so where else would a "diehard" go who isn't already hating on Android?

You're only looking at things through a narrow BB10 lense. The other features you want, no one else does. Look at the other thread - the BB10 Android launcher has only 80 customers.

There is no perfect solution. Accept Android or iOS, warts and all, or use a niche solution like BB10 with limited or no app availability.

I'm trying to use a KEYone for everything except email, downloaded audio files, and reading, all of which are better for me on my Z10 and Passport.

The challenge for me: 90%+ of what I use my phone for is email, downloaded audio files and reading. So, I'm happy with my KEYone, but I don't actually use it very much!

Posted with my trusty Z10

[bb10adopter111]

I'm not entirely clear on with thread you are referring to, but I am pretty sure you are referring to a 3rd party launcher that customizes the Android experience.

Again though, I'm not saying I want it to function exactly like BB10, not at all. And I definitely understand that you can customize the heck out of Android and get it functioning how you want it, including putting some of your own BB10-esque looks or feels, should you chose to.

What I'm saying is that, for me, 'what looks and feels' like a BlackBerry is a device that already has everything I want it to do packaged into it. The software is from a company I trust and it does what I need it to, straight out of the box.

I understand that the whole move BlackBerry made to Android was to save on development costs... I just assumed that they would still be putting a fair bit into ongoing development and I'm not really seeing that. There is no more excitement for 'new updates' on Android than there is for those of us on BB10. It could be different.

"BlackBerry updated their launcher again?! What other new features did they add?"

BlackBerry is just being pretty lazy with making their Android offering a true BlackBerry experience.

And, unfortunately, all it would take is Apple to announce the iHub and the new iPhones would be pretty tempting. So, to respond honestly to where us 'diehards' will go...? I really don't know yet.

I agree with you. The Android / iOS model of using third party apps for almost everything is a hopeless mess, IMO. The fact that the majority of the world accepts it means nothing to me.

My go forward plan is to de-emphasize mobile in my work flow, using it no more than necessary. For the past 15 years I've grown accustomed to always having a BlackBerry in my hand 16+ hours a day. It's not an exaggeration to say that BlackBerry's approach to mobile communications has made me much more effective and successful than I otherwise would have been. It's been a great run, but it's not something I have been able to translate to Android / iOS.

Fortunately, ultra mobile PCs with all day battery power and LTE are coming, so, since much of my work is already PC-based, these always on, always connected "cellular PCs" should be able to replace my handheld for most purposes.

The end of one Era and the beginning of another, for sure, but I'm immensely grateful to BlackBerry for keeping BB10 around long enough for me to make the transition.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[bb10adopter111]

I think many more BlackBerry users would be happier with iOS than the complexity of learning Android.

Personally I prefer the complexity and customization capable on Android... But I've seen folks struggle with Android whereas iOS seems to be more intuitive (or just simple).

I think a lot of BlackBerry users find BB10 preferable to either iOS or Android. It's not about the learning curve.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[bb10adopter111]

I think anyone limping along with BB10 right now, with all of the hoops that have to be jumped through and all of the workarounds that have to be finessed, can handle Android. At least the HUB, the calendar, and the contacts app will be familiar.

You're assuming that people using BB10 now are installing Android apps by jumping through hoops and using workarounds. I think that's a very small subset of BB10 users, most of whom have never heard of Cobalt or know what an APK or BAR file is.

I think it's more likely that most BB10 users are using it close to stock with a few apps from BlackBerry World. They may or may not be carrying another phone or tablet for apps.

The jump to Android or iOS isn't very appealing unless you want to install 3rd party apps. Sure, a huge number of people want that, but the assumption that the remaining BB10 users would be happier on iOS or Android is pretty presumptuous.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[conite]

but the assumption that the remaining BB10 users would be happier on iOS or Android is pretty presumptuous.

Posted with my trusty Z10

My only assumption was that the remaining BB10 users are not dumb, and could easily handle Android.

[bb10adopter111]

My only assumption was that the remaining BB10 users are not dumb, and could easily handle Android.

Who are you calling not dumb? It better not be me!

Posted with my trusty Z10