04-01-17 08:01 AM
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  1. markmall's Avatar
    The delineation itself is nonsensical.

    BlackBerry built a proprietary OS at a cost of many billions of dollars, and produced a handful of devices to support it. To say that one made money and another didn't is just a silly shell game of misallocating overhead costs.
    The delineation makes sense if it's 2015 and you already paid to develop the OS in 2011-2013. If it's 2010 and you want to talk about whether BlackBerry should develop a follow up OS and continue making smart phones, then the delineation makes no sense.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-17 07:22 PM
  2. anon(2313227)'s Avatar
    I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. You have to be feeling the same way at this point.
    I gave up on this already when you didn't know who I was quoting. This thread is amusing though.

    The question should also be then "Prove that any BB10 made any money for BB."
    03-21-17 07:23 PM
  3. markmall's Avatar
    Exactly. We don't know the exact numbers, but we know that at the time, t he passport was singlehandedly driving profit margins for blackberry.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...mid-turnaround

    We do not have numbers for the dteks, but I'm positive that android cannot have the desired effect blackberry hopes it to have and is a failed strategy.

    Posted via CB10
    I remember this well because I owned shares. Chen was so stupid. He could have sold 1 million Passports in the first couple weeks if he had any stock. It took over a month before he had any more to sell. Wasn't his phone, so it couldn't e a good one.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-17 07:26 PM
  4. emanuel0ss0's Avatar
    I gave up on this already when you didn't know who I was quoting. This thread is amusing though.

    The question should also be then "Prove that any BB10 made any money for BB."
    The thread title definitely needs to be changed lol 😁
    03-21-17 07:27 PM
  5. markmall's Avatar
    I will sell you my Passport for 600 dollars right now if you feel that's what it's worth.
    This hardly makes whatever point you are trying to make, but I will trade you a three-year-old Android phone for your three-year-old Blackberry phone.
    03-21-17 07:52 PM
  6. markmall's Avatar
    I think my last point on this issue is that if I were forced to bet on it, I would bet that Blackberry made money on the Passport. No, I am not amortizing the OS which Blackberry already had developed when it released the Passport.
    03-21-17 07:53 PM
  7. anon(10190830)'s Avatar
    Financial Post, June 22 2016:

    BlackBerry Ltd. isn’t ditching handsets just yet, with its top objective for 2017 to return its struggling device business to profitability, CEO John Chen told shareholders Wednesday.

    “The device business must be profitable, we don’t want to run a business that drags on the bottom line,” Chen said at the company’s annual general meeting in Waterloo, Ont., held the day before the company releases its fiscal 2017 first quarter results.

    “It’s time for us to get to the profitability … we’ve got to get there this year.”

    From Code Mobile in October 2015:

    In an interview at the Code Mobile conference today, CEO John Chen told*The Verge*that his goal is to sell five million smartphones a year, which will be necessary to make the business profitable. If that doesn't happen, Chen hinted that BlackBerry may exit the handset business altogether, which would be a huge shift from the BlackBerry of the past.

    Crackberry (June 2014):

    http://crackberry.com/says-blackberr...fitable-phones

    -----

    I could keep going forever.
    None of this proves the point of all BB10 devices being loss-making. There's a difference between the company as a whole not being [satisfactorily] profitable and all BB10 devices being loss-making. In your quote Chen refers to "dragging along the bottom line" - which means being barely profitable. And of course it all depends on exactly how he defines profitable. Is he talking about profit before taxes? Profit before dividends? Profit before one-off write-downs?

    There's also a plain contradiction between ten million handset sales to be profitable, and five million. Again, are they talking about being profitable, or being what they deem to be satisfactorily profitable? Remember that it's not raw profit that counts but return on investment. If an investment of ten billion produces one million profit, the investor would not consider it a profitable venture since he could have gained a far greater percentage elsewhere, but it's still a profitable business.

    And again, "to get to the profitability." Does this mean not loss-making, or does it mean what someone deems to be a worthwhile level of profitability? It's not explicit in any of these quotes. That's why raw data is necessary.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-17 08:20 PM
  8. anon(10190830)'s Avatar
    In this scenario, knowing that they had zero guarantees of success and could no longer make any phones that used the runtime or update the runtime on their existing phones, you're saying that BlackBerry gave up the profits of BB10 and left the customers that use the phones in the dust for a CHANCE at success with android?

    That logic doesn't compute.
    Business is all about risk and reward. Confine yourself to reacting to the current situation and you'll quickly be left far behind by those who didn't.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-17 08:25 PM
  9. anon(10190830)'s Avatar
    Calm down, you are going to have a heart attack if you keep getting this upset... and to be honest, I don't have to deal with anything... I can't care less if you understand my point or want to think that I am the one making fool of myself... at the end, link or not link, BB10 isn't profitable... kind of silly argument the whole thing... have a nice day!
    Upset? Hardly. Unlike some I don't have a fragile ego that depends upon clinging desperately to the pretence of Being Right while ignoring reason and refusing to acknowledge unsubstantiated claims as such.

    I understand your point perfectly. Your conclusions are invalid for the reasons already given. Repeating an unsubstantiated claim does not make it any less unsubstantiated, no matter how many times you do it.

    If you genuinely are unable to see the flaws in your logic, I'd recommend purchasing a high school level book on the subject of critical thinking, and having a word with yourself regarding how and why you became so emotionally invested in your belief as to be so blinkered and over-sensitive to criticism thereof.

    Posted via CB10
    03-21-17 08:33 PM
  10. emanuel0ss0's Avatar
    None of this proves the point of all BB10 devices being loss-making. There's a difference between the company as a whole not being [satisfactorily] profitable and all BB10 devices being loss-making. In your quote Chen refers to "dragging along the bottom line" - which means being barely profitable. And of course it all depends on exactly how he defines profitable. Is he talking about profit before taxes? Profit before dividends? Profit before one-off write-downs?

    There's also a plain contradiction between ten million handset sales to be profitable, and five million. Again, are they talking about being profitable, or being what they deem to be satisfactorily profitable? Remember that it's not raw profit that counts but return on investment. If an investment of ten billion produces one million profit, the investor would not consider it a profitable venture since he could have gained a far greater percentage elsewhere, but it's still a profitable business.

    And again, "to get to the profitability." Does this mean not loss-making, or does it mean what someone deems to be a worthwhile level of profitability? It's not explicit in any of these quotes. That's why raw data is necessary.

    Posted via CB10
    Are we seriously nickel and diming profit now?

    BB10 wasn't making the money that BlackBerry wanted so they moved on. "Dragging along the bottom line" could also mean that handset losses are dragging down the revenues of BlackBerry that the other divisions have to recoup.

    I don't get this "we need definitive proof that it wasn't making any money", The CEO clearly stated in many interviews that the handset division needed to be profitable(however they calculated it) or he would exit the business.

    The business wasn't profitable to his standards so he left the business.
    03-21-17 08:44 PM
  11. emanuel0ss0's Avatar
    This hardly makes whatever point you are trying to make, but I will trade you a three-year-old Android phone for your three-year-old Blackberry phone.
    Wasn't even directed at you and was a joke.
    03-21-17 08:45 PM
  12. gallopiton's Avatar
    Whatever you say, whatever you say... moving on...

    Are we seriously nickel and diming profit now?

    BB10 wasn't making the money that BlackBerry wanted so they moved on. "Dragging along the bottom line" could also mean that handset losses are dragging down the revenues of BlackBerry that the other divisions have to recoup.

    I don't get this "we need definitive proof that it wasn't making any money", The CEO clearly stated in many interviews that the handset division needed to be profitable(however they calculated it) or he would exit the business.

    The business wasn't profitable to his standards so he left the business.
    03-21-17 08:47 PM
  13. emanuel0ss0's Avatar
    I think my last point on this issue is that if I were forced to bet on it, I would bet that Blackberry made money on the Passport. No, I am not amortizing the OS which Blackberry already had developed when it released the Passport.
    That may well be true, but was it enough profit to drive BB10 and the next wave of phones through?

    If we are looking at each handset, some may have lost money and some may have made some. Does it even out?

    Were the revenues enough to continue the development and updates of the OS?

    I personally don't think so hence where we are right now.
    03-21-17 08:49 PM
  14. emanuel0ss0's Avatar
    I remember this well because I owned shares. Chen was so stupid. He could have sold 1 million Passports in the first couple weeks if he had any stock. It took over a month before he had any more to sell. Wasn't his phone, so it couldn't e a good one.

    Posted via CB10
    At that point in the game, BlackBerry wrote off a billion dollars of stock of the z10. The volume for BlackBerry handsets wasn't there. Could you imagine the outcry if he produced a million or more handsets at launch and only sold like 200,000?

    They had to take calculated measures with their phone inventory.
    03-21-17 08:53 PM
  15. emanuel0ss0's Avatar
    Goofed and quoted myself by accident lol
    03-21-17 08:54 PM
  16. ryder55's Avatar
    I remember this well because I owned shares. Chen was so stupid. He could have sold 1 million Passports in the first couple weeks if he had any stock. It took over a month before he had any more to sell. Wasn't his phone, so it couldn't e a good one.

    Posted via CB10
    Exactly! The passport sold out after the first couple of weeks.

    http://www.computerworld.com/article...y-in-2015.html

    After the marketing hype was when the next batch was brought to market.

    Rather than building on its success, some genius decided to take shortcuts with Google.

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    03-21-17 10:21 PM
  17. emanuel0ss0's Avatar
    Exactly! The passport sold out after the first couple of weeks.

    http://www.computerworld.com/article...y-in-2015.html

    After the marketing hype was when the next batch was brought to market.

    Rather than building on its success, some genius decided to take shortcuts with Google.

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    I said this before but I'll say it again. They over estimated the demand for the Z10. They had to be diligent with their inventory.
    03-22-17 04:47 AM
  18. ryder55's Avatar
    I said this before but I'll say it again. They over estimated the demand for the Z10. They had to be diligent with their inventory.
    I agree. The Z10 was a copycat trying to appease lovers of thin glass slabs. It failed. Exactly what will happen with the DTEKs or any android phone.

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    03-22-17 06:20 AM
  19. anon(3983727)'s Avatar
    Exactly! The passport sold out after the first couple of weeks.

    BlackBerry Passport sells out; CEO foresees profitability in 2015 | Computerworld

    After the marketing hype was when the next batch was brought to market.

    Rather than building on its success, some genius decided to take shortcuts with Google.

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    Don't forget.. they sold all Passport inventory without a US launch. And when it did finally come to the US it was only available on ATT. Yet it still did well with absolutely zero advertisement.
    markmall likes this.
    03-22-17 06:51 AM
  20. ezubeBB2013's Avatar
    Got a SailfishOS Phone, the Jolla 1. Only SailfishOS has a long way to go. BB10 is still much beter. But both are really multitasking. Oh Android and Ios are not? ;-)

    Posted via CB10
    They should have hired some of BlackBerry's ex BB10 employees!

    Posted via BlackBerry Passport
    03-22-17 07:04 AM
  21. ryder55's Avatar
    Don't forget.. they sold all Passport inventory without a US launch. And when it did finally come to the US it was only available on ATT. Yet it still did well with absolutely zero advertisement.
    Thank you. Zero advertising. And this was supposed to be a security focused and professional bombshell with a wide screen real estate that catered to avid readers.

    What I think they're doing is trying their hands at everything to see what sticks which has only caused them to wear themselves thin. Hopefully we get a passport 2 through a licensee but that's not gonna happen.

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    03-22-17 08:11 AM
  22. guygardner73's Avatar
    I like BlackBerry. I like what they've done with Android. I liked BB10 in its time too. As I did BBOS before it.
    I agree. Most of what they produce suits me.

    Posted via CB10
    03-22-17 11:25 AM
  23. guygardner73's Avatar
    None of this proves the point of all BB10 devices being loss-making. There's a difference between the company as a whole not being [satisfactorily] profitable and all BB10 devices being loss-making. In your quote Chen refers to "dragging along the bottom line" - which means being barely profitable. And of course it all depends on exactly how he defines profitable. Is he talking about profit before taxes? Profit before dividends? Profit before one-off write-downs?

    There's also a plain contradiction between ten million handset sales to be profitable, and five million. Again, are they talking about being profitable, or being what they deem to be satisfactorily profitable? Remember that it's not raw profit that counts but return on investment. If an investment of ten billion produces one million profit, the investor would not consider it a profitable venture since he could have gained a far greater percentage elsewhere, but it's still a profitable business.

    And again, "to get to the profitability." Does this mean not loss-making, or does it mean what someone deems to be a worthwhile level of profitability? It's not explicit in any of these quotes. That's why raw data is necessary.

    Posted via CB10
    Well, i'm a passport user and I like the look of the KEYone. I think I shall buy one.

    Posted via CB10
    03-22-17 11:28 AM
  24. markmall's Avatar
    I said this before but I'll say it again. They over estimated the demand for the Z10. They had to be diligent with their inventory.
    Being diligent and being so cautious that you blow an important launch are two different things. By the way, once the Prem financing was in place, they were not starving of cash -- as shown by Chen's buying other companies so he can report revenue growth.
    03-22-17 02:33 PM
  25. conite's Avatar
    Being diligent and being so cautious that you blow an important launch are two different things. By the way, once the Prem financing was in place, they were not starving of cash -- as shown by Chen's buying other companies so he can report revenue growth.
    And Prem's and the Board's marching orders for Chen were to no longer invest in bb10. Just burn through commitments and contractual obligations. The fate of bb10 was signed, sealed, and delivered in the fall of 2013.
    03-22-17 03:26 PM
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