11-12-14 02:00 PM
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  1. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    In the EU there is a system that works as follows:

    The manufacturer gives you a 1 year guarantee it has to honour from day 1 to 365 (can be longer, depending on the good and manufacturer).

    Then there is the so called warranty, the point of sale has to honour.
    This one goes from day 1 to day 730(can be longer depending on the good).

    Those 2 are completely separated things though and I can chose which one I desire to use.
    (this is slightly simplified, because there are certain caveats. For the warranty for example, there is a so called "reversal of the burden of proof" after 1 year. Until Day 366, the PoS has to prove that I did the damage, and that it's not a manufacturers defect. Starting with day 366, I have to prove that it wasn't me.)

    Anyhow, the 1 year manufacturer's guarantee (there is a very strict distinction between guarantee and warranty in the German language) is not tied, in any way, to the PoS.
    It's purely tied to the manufacturer/brand.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 02:00 PM
  2. TheoRadu's Avatar
    You still have no idea what you're talking about. There are virtually no retailers in Canada, including the carriers, that will agree to handle any warranty related work on behalf of the customer past their standard return policies. The only reason why you find this to be the case with on contract devices is because the carriers, by not pleasing the customer, run the risk of loosing one or more subscribers. They do it out of good will, not because they are mandated or regulated to do so.

    Oh and, I did read the warranty. The responsibility is 100% with BlackBerry. They only state that the point of contact is the retailer. I also never trivialize the issues faced with carriers who are again only interested in helping if you are paying them monthly recurring charges. By your fantastically twisted interpretation, what if I buy my phone from a dealer store and that store closes down? Am I out of warranty? This is a rhetorical question. Of course I'm not, BlackBerry is on the hook just like they are at any point in time. They can push you in the direction of the carrier, but they cannot refuse to handle the warranty.

    Posted via CB10
    It's not at all a twisted interpretation. It's black on white, you deal with the retailer. BlackBerry has no obligation to you, as you didn't buy the product from them. Do you expect them to also refund you for a stolen phone that you bought on ebay? How could this be their responsibility?

    Did Telus refuse to offer you a refund or to repair your phone? If so, then they are breaching the terms of the warranty agreement and that is illegal. I don't know what happens if the retailer closes down, I'm assuming you lose the warranty. This could also happen if the manufacturer goes bankrupt, no?

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 02:05 PM
  3. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    ^
    Are you kidding me?
    According to you, the buyer loses the guarantee when the retailer goes out of business, while the manufacturer/brand still is in business?

    Yes, that's what I would call a twisted interpretation.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 02:09 PM
  4. TheoRadu's Avatar
    ^
    Are you kidding me?
    According to you, the buyer loses the guarantee when the retailer goes out of business, while the manufacturer/brand still is in business?

    Yes, that's what I would call a twisted interpretation.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm not kidding you, this is how it is.

    http://www.consumerrightsexpert.co.u...lty-goods.html

    The manufacturer warranty is totally optional and it's almost never free. The manufacturer can choose not to offer the warranty for free and sell it as an addon. The retailer however must offer at least 1 year warranty for electronic goods. Other goods have different terms.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 02:20 PM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    If this is true, and isn't some sick corporate interpretation of the law...

    I just remembered why basically nobody considers the UK as a part of Europe.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 02:45 PM
  6. TheoRadu's Avatar
    If this is true, and isn't some sick corporate interpretation of the law...

    I just remembered why basically nobody considers the UK as a part of Europe.

    Posted via CB10
    It is true and it is not just in the UK. It's the same everywhere.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 02:58 PM
  7. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    No it's not true, that's the point.

    When the Manufacturer gives you a warranty (the manufacturer's warranty), it has to honour it. End of story. To give you such a warranty is optional though, but is the standard with electronic goods.

    The warranty you get assured by the law, the one that is coupled with the retailer, is something entirely different.

    Therefore, my other post was wrong because I haven't read your link carefully enough, as it actually makes my point.
    What you are claiming here, is that BlackBerry themselves have not given a manufacturer's warranty, and therefore only the retailer is liable.

    If however, BlackBerry did give out a manufacturer's warranty, THEN THEY HAVE TO HONOUR IT.
    There is no room for interpretation here.
    And the UK is no different than the rest of the EU or Australia, regarding that issue.

    Edit: for a moment you got me confused, but yeah, it seems that you, and others, don't know what they read (just like me 5 min ago).

    The only important question is, if BlackBerry gives out a manufacturer's warranty, or not.
    If yes, well, as I said before:
    THEY HAVE TO HONOUR IT.

    Posted via CB10
    dejanh and Aahleksh like this.
    10-31-14 03:09 PM
  8. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    "
    The BlackBerry Handheld, the BlackBerry Cradle, and any other RIM hardware accessories, excluding external batteries and SIM cards, which are provided to YOU concurrently and in conjunction with the BlackBerry Handheld specifically for use with YOUR particular model of BlackBerry Handheld (which together comprise the BlackBerry Hardware), will be free from defects in workmanship and materials for a period that is the shorter of (i) one (1) year from the date that the new BlackBerry Handheld was first purchased by YOU as an original end-user ("YOU") and (ii) the period ending upon YOUR breach of the BlackBerry End-User/Software License Agreement (the "License Agreement") entered into between YOU and Research In Motion Limited and/OR its affiliated group of companies' ("RIM") in connection with the BlackBerry Solution (the "Warranty Period"). This Limited Warranty is not transferable. During the Warranty Period, the BlackBerry Hardware, or one or more of the BlackBerry Hardware components, will be repaired or replaced at RIM's option, without charge to YOU for either parts or labor."

    http://www.blackberry.com/legal/warranty/handheld.shtml


    Damn, seems as though BlackBerry standardly has a manufacturer's warranty...

    Damn, seems as though Dejanh, QBN, Howarmat and I were absolutely correct...

    Damn, seems as though BlackBerry tried (successfully) to rip-off Dejanh...

    Posted via CB10
    SharonRD, Aahleksh and Kat0908 like this.
    10-31-14 03:14 PM
  9. dejanh's Avatar
    "
    The BlackBerry Handheld, the BlackBerry Cradle, and any other RIM hardware accessories, excluding external batteries and SIM cards, which are provided to YOU concurrently and in conjunction with the BlackBerry Handheld specifically for use with YOUR particular model of BlackBerry Handheld (which together comprise the BlackBerry Hardware), will be free from defects in workmanship and materials for a period that is the shorter of (i) one (1) year from the date that the new BlackBerry Handheld was first purchased by YOU as an original end-user ("YOU") and (ii) the period ending upon YOUR breach of the BlackBerry End-User/Software License Agreement (the "License Agreement") entered into between YOU and Research In Motion Limited and/OR its affiliated group of companies' ("RIM") in connection with the BlackBerry Solution (the "Warranty Period"). This Limited Warranty is not transferable. During the Warranty Period, the BlackBerry Hardware, or one or more of the BlackBerry Hardware components, will be repaired or replaced at RIM's option, without charge to YOU for either parts or labor."

    http://www.blackberry.com/legal/warranty/handheld.shtml


    Damn, seems as though BlackBerry standardly has a manufacturer's warranty...

    Damn, seems as though Dejanh, QBN, Howarmat and I were absolutely correct...

    Damn, seems as though BlackBerry tried (successfully) to rip-off Dejanh...

    Posted via CB10
    I tried to tell him. Thank you

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX and Aahleksh like this.
    10-31-14 03:23 PM
  10. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I tried to tell him. Thank you

    Posted via CB10
    He got me pretty confused there, trust me.

    I honestly started to doubt the knowledge I have had for years there, because I didn't read attentively enough.
    I also dealt with a lot of broken goods, and not only once sued, when the theoretical damages would have exceeded a certain amount.
    (in your case, 2-3 letters from a lawyer cost more than your Passport, so yeah... And I'd wager quite a bit that both Telus and BlackBerry know that)

    The way I see it, is that Theoradu and others completely confuse the "manufacturer's warranty" and the warranty that is legally required by the retailer.
    If that's not the case, I honestly have no idea how the margin of misinterpretation can be so huge.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 03:35 PM
  11. jmr1015's Avatar
    My god... This thread.

    Every consumer electronic I've ever purchased, when it comes to warranty, the point of contact is always the retailer. However, when the retailer can do no more (which happens often) then they advise I take it up with the manufacturer... at which point, the manufacturer has always stood behind their product if it is indeed within the warranty period. In some cases, manufacturers will stand by their product outside of the warranty period, to a degree. (Offering discounted repairs, or offering free shipping and handling for the device, both ways)

    Even if the warranty is written in a way that lets BlackBerry legally get away with this, it is still a horrible situation to put your paying customers in. It is still BlackBerry, not standing by their product. The retailer didn't build the device. BlackBerry did. They should be jumping at the chance to correct a poor customer experience due to any manufacturer defect... especially so soon after the device came out.

    I do however agree... That if BlackBerry offered to take the device and repair it, rather than replace it, that is fulfilling their obligations. If you buy a car, and three weeks after purchase, an electronic component fails and is covered by warranty, you take your car in and get it repaired, free of charge. You don't get an entirely new car because of a defect. This is exactly what BlackBerry did when my BB Bold had issues... but I was given a Pearl as a courtesy replacement while my phone was repaired... and upon receiving my Bold back, I was given a belt holster and a travel charger and a desktop dock. Was it a hassle? Sure. But it got resolved.
    jakie55 and Suraj Jadhav like this.
    10-31-14 03:52 PM
  12. deltact's Avatar
    BlackBerry is not used to handling warranty claims directly because the carriers used to handle everything, except for certain enterprise customers. Selling "direct" is a relatively new thing for BlackBerry. Sure, ShopBB has been around for a while, but I doubt it had a fraction of the Passport's sales volume. So there's some type of disjunction in the way that each party handles exchanges and repairs, resulting in certain cases falling through the gap.

    This is something that BlackBerry needs to resolve for the US market if it continues to sell through ShopBB. Otherwise they are much better served just relying on Amazon, which has a well-oiled RMA department.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10
    10-31-14 03:58 PM
  13. reeneebob's Avatar
    It is true and it is not just in the UK. It's the same everywhere.

    Posted via CB10
    No. It's not.

    If I wouldn't lose my job I'd happily screenshot the long list of procedure we have, listed by manufacturer, if what we, the retailer, have permission to handle for repair after the first 15-30 days. Most of the major brands like Samsung, Toshiba, Panasonic and yes BLACKBERRY say quite specifically that the customer is to be referred to them.

    Not us.
    10-31-14 04:14 PM
  14. TheoRadu's Avatar
    "
    The BlackBerry Handheld, the BlackBerry Cradle, and any other RIM hardware accessories, excluding external batteries and SIM cards, which are provided to YOU concurrently and in conjunction with the BlackBerry Handheld specifically for use with YOUR particular model of BlackBerry Handheld (which together comprise the BlackBerry Hardware), will be free from defects in workmanship and materials for a period that is the shorter of (i) one (1) year from the date that the new BlackBerry Handheld was first purchased by YOU as an original end-user ("YOU") and (ii) the period ending upon YOUR breach of the BlackBerry End-User/Software License Agreement (the "License Agreement") entered into between YOU and Research In Motion Limited and/OR its affiliated group of companies' ("RIM") in connection with the BlackBerry Solution (the "Warranty Period"). This Limited Warranty is not transferable. During the Warranty Period, the BlackBerry Hardware, or one or more of the BlackBerry Hardware components, will be repaired or replaced at RIM's option, without charge to YOU for either parts or labor."

    http://www.blackberry.com/legal/warranty/handheld.shtml


    Damn, seems as though BlackBerry standardly has a manufacturer's warranty...

    Damn, seems as though Dejanh, QBN, Howarmat and I were absolutely correct...

    Damn, seems as though BlackBerry tried (successfully) to rip-off Dejanh...

    Posted via CB10
    "...will be free from defects in workmanship and materials for a period that is the shorter of (i) one (1) year from the date that the new BlackBerry Handheld was first purchased by YOU as an original end user (?YOU?) and (ii) the period ending upon YOUR breach of the BlackBerry End User/Software License Agreement (the ?License Agreement?) entered into between YOU and Research In Motion Limited and/OR its affiliated group of companies? (?RIM?) in connection with the BlackBerry Solution (the ?Warranty Period?)."

    The original user is the first person/entity that purchased the device from BlackBerry. In this case that entity is Telus.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 04:18 PM
  15. TheoRadu's Avatar
    You have no idea what you're talking about. Truly.

    Telus and their warranty is OVER. It was 15 days. Now it's BB.

    Brick walls, sometimes, I swear...
    You are mistaking statutory rights for warranty. The 15 days return period is a consumer right, it has nothing to do with the warranty.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 04:28 PM
  16. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You have no idea what you're talking about. Truly.

    Telus and their warranty is OVER. It was 15 days. Now it's BB.

    Brick walls, sometimes, I swear...
    2 options for users like Theoradu:

    1) Admit that BlackBerry screwed over their customer.

    2) Try to warp reality so much (reality distortion field says hello) that BlackBerry wasn't at fault in the end.

    I congratulate everyone who chose option 2.
    BlackBerry is proud of you.
    You'll get a free Passport tomorrow for that epic endorsement!

    Just don't expect any support from them if the phone breaks, because there was no Point of Sale, as it was a gift from BlackBerry

    Posted via CB10
    reeneebob and jakie55 like this.
    10-31-14 04:31 PM
  17. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The original user is the first person/entity that purchased the device from BlackBerry. In this case that entity is Telus.

    Posted via CB10
    You didn't use the correct term.
    It's original end-user.

    Apart from that, the carrier, or POS is not an end-user

    Edit:
    Wait...
    Did you edit your post, so that it doesn't say original end-user, so that you can use the "original user"?

    Are you kidding me?

    Double-edit:
    "In economics and commerce, an end user[a] is a person that uses a particular product.
    A product may be purchased by several intermediaries, who are not users, between the manufacturer and the end user, or be directly purchased by the end user as a consumer.

    For example, the end user of a pharmaceutical product is the patient who takes it, rather than distributors, pharmacists and physicians who may purchase it in their behalf.
    An end user of a computer system or software is someone who uses it."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_user

    Posted via CB10
    dejanh likes this.
    10-31-14 04:39 PM
  18. TheoRadu's Avatar
    2 options for users like Theoradu:

    1) Admit that BlackBerry screwed over their customer.

    2) Try to warp reality so much (reality distortion field says hello) that BlackBerry wasn't at fault in the end.

    I congratulate everyone who chose option 2.
    BlackBerry is proud of you.
    You'll get a free Passport tomorrow for that epic endorsement!

    Just don't expect any support from them if the phone breaks, because there was no Point of Sale, as it was a gift from BlackBerry

    Posted via CB10
    Funny. Anyway, even though I still think I'm right in saying that the warranty should be fulfilled by the retailer, this conversation is pointless since, from what I understand, Telus already offered to repair the device.

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 04:54 PM
  19. TheoRadu's Avatar
    You didn't use the correct term.
    It's original end-user.

    Apart from that, the carrier, or POS is not an end-user

    Edit:
    Wait...
    Did you edit your post, so that it doesn't say original end-user, so that you can use the "original user"?

    Are you kidding me?

    Double-edit:
    "In economics and commerce, an end user[a] is a person that uses a particular product.
    A product may be purchased by several intermediaries, who are not users, between the manufacturer and the end user, or be directly purchased by the end user as a consumer.

    For example, the end user of a pharmaceutical product is the patient who takes it, rather than distributors, pharmacists and physicians who may purchase it in their behalf.
    An end user of a computer system or software is someone who uses it."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_user

    Posted via CB10
    Yeah, you got me. I knew you were going to google the definition of "end user" if I write it like that. I still think end user is the first person or entity that buys the product from BlackBerry. If not, would I be able to ask for a replacement for a phone I bought from a dodgy seller on eBay? Would BlackBerry really have to fix a phone that was stolen from their warehouse?

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 05:03 PM
  20. howarmat's Avatar
    BB backs the warranty, same as Ford backs their vehicles, Apple backs their iOS devices and Tag Heuer supports their watches. You might have to go to the "dealer" or "retailer" to get the service but the manufacturers in the end back the products. They either replace them or service them as per their warranty.

    In this case, BB is seemingly skirting around the warranty as this is clear as day an easy RMA situation or swap at the retailer.
    dejanh, reeneebob and jakie55 like this.
    10-31-14 05:20 PM
  21. Deppe's Avatar
    In the EU there is a system that works as follows:



    Posted via CB10
    As far as I know, the EU does not have uniform law on this? Can you link me?

    Posted via CB10
    10-31-14 05:35 PM
  22. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    As far as I know, the EU does not have uniform law on this? Can you link me?

    Posted via CB10
    Theoretically, a lot of EU laws trump local laws.
    In practice, I agree with you, that there still are local differences.

    And no, I currently can't link you to one single legal text, as this issue is compromised of more than one single law.

    But it is pretty well known that the EU requires at least 2 years of warranty on electronical goods.
    I say at least, because there are clauses who also talk about the expected time, until something shouldn't work. Or average times.

    I am pretty sure that you search for the EU Directive called "1999/44/EC" in the European law.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 10-31-14 at 06:02 PM.
    10-31-14 05:49 PM
  23. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Yeah, you got me.
    I don't have to tell you how sad this is, right?
    Is it really sooooo hard to admit that BlackBerry screwed over one of their customers?

    Also, I didn't use Wikipedia because I am clueless.
    I Wikipedia'd it because I am not fluid in writing "legalise".

    I still think end user is the first person or entity that buys the product from BlackBerry.
    You do know what "user" means, right? A reseller is not a user.
    Also, it's great that everyone is entitled to his opinion, but facts outweigh opinons. Always.

    And in our case, the facts I am talking about are legal/economic definitions which are VERY clear, in their meaning.

    If not, would I be able to ask for a replacement for a phone I bought from a dodgy seller on eBay?

    Posted via CB10
    This is an interesting question, but should be answered in the "manufacturer's warranty".

    Would BlackBerry really have to fix a phone that was stolen from their warehouse?

    Posted via CB10
    If you didn't acquire the phone legally, BlackBerry obviously does not have to honour the manufacturer's warranty.

    Posted via CB10
    dejanh and Kat0908 like this.
    10-31-14 06:02 PM
  24. dejanh's Avatar
    Funny. Anyway, even though I still think I'm right in saying that the warranty should be fulfilled by the retailer, this conversation is pointless since, from what I understand, Telus already offered to repair the device.

    Posted via CB10
    Point of correction, Telus did not offer anything, and Telus is only offering 15 days for returns/exchanges. This is the reason why I went to BlackBerry as they are the manufacturer, only to be told to buzz off because the unit was bought from Telus.

    BlackBerry relegated on their responsibility as per the warranty and because I did not have the time or energy to fight with them any more, I had to fix the device myself. They in fact did not even offer a repair. They simply said, tough cookie, go to Telus and see what they will do for you.

    Posted via CB10
    Aahleksh likes this.
    10-31-14 06:56 PM
  25. Mic_JP's Avatar
    So.....i bought a car.....brand new.........turns out to be a lemon........no big..........i get a new car.........problem corrected and I am happy
    That was easy

    STL100-4 OS10.2.1.2976
    10-31-14 08:02 PM
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