[EFats]

The reason for failure is super complicated. Apps are often a sore point that people point to. But most people still don't get that even Android is not a homogenous market and is no guarantee of success.
The father of Android makes a new, cutting edge phone running Android...and they could not succeed (Essential phone). Lenovo/Moto...do you know how much cash they have burned through since the acquisition from just the mobile division? I think enough to eat through all of BlackBerry's cash reserves. Then there is also Sony...well know purveyor of Android phones, also draining cash. The list goes on...

Even if BB10 had ALL the apps from launch, you can see from the above examples it would still be very easy to fail.

BTW, I have Android phone, it is one of my newer phones, but a few years old. I also have phones with the 2 'dead' OS, BB10 and Windows. Guess which phones got an OS patch/update in 2018? (iPhone from 5 years ago will still be getting update this year). NOT the Android, and this is from a company with a pretty good track record of updating their phones.
The only way Android is 'supported' is if you keep buying a new phone every 2 years.
If that's what's meant by support and updates, I will take the dead OS instead.

[Johnny Dollar]

Every time I get a new phone I get really excited about customizing it, and really making it fit me like a glove. It just never works out quite that well.

I use very few Apps on BB10, nor do I feel the need to, so my experience is different.

I can see the appeal of being able to tinker and customize. It's cool. But I don't feel like sifting through the chaff at this point.

I think you realize that "switching" decision time is rapidly approaching and you just need to "do it" and don't look back. That's what I did about a year ago, went cold turkey on BB10 and haven't used a BB10 phone since. The adjustment has been relatively painless so far and I can probably say that I'm just as comfortable with Android now as I was with BB10 a year ago. The more you immerse yourself in Android the easier it will hopefully become over time.

[KAM1138]

The reason for failure is super complicated. Apps are often a sore point that people point to. But most people still don't get that even Android is not a homogenous market and is no guarantee of success.
The father of Android makes a new, cutting edge phone running Android...and they could not succeed (Essential phone). Lenovo/Moto...do you know how much cash they have burned through since the acquisition from just the mobile division? I think enough to eat through all of BlackBerry's cash reserves. Then there is also Sony...well know purveyor of Android phones, also draining cash. The list goes on...

Even if BB10 had ALL the apps from launch, you can see from the above examples it would still be very easy to fail.

BTW, I have Android phone, it is one of my newer phones, but a few years old. I also have phones with the 2 'dead' OS, BB10 and Windows. Guess which phones got an OS patch/update in 2018? (iPhone from 5 years ago will still be getting update this year). NOT the Android, and this is from a company with a pretty good track record of updating their phones.
The only way Android is 'supported' is if you keep buying a new phone every 2 years.
If that's what's meant by support and updates, I will take the dead OS instead.

Well, as I see it--one android supplier to the next offers very little. It's all Android, and people don't seem too pleased with the software individual manufactures install.

BB10 had something different to offer--all the things BB10 fans talk about, enjoy and hold them back, even with essentially no functioning ecosystem.

[KAM1138]

I think you realize that "switching" decision time is rapidly approaching and you just need to "do it" and don't look back. That's what I did about a year ago, went cold turkey on BB10 and haven't used a BB10 phone since. The adjustment has been relatively painless so far and I can probably say that I'm just as comfortable with Android now as I was with BB10 a year ago. The more you immerse yourself in Android the easier it will hopefully become over time.

Yes, I figure I could have about another year of using my Passport, but it's hard to say--things could start to fail at any time--especially with the browser.

I'm sure I'll be able to adapt, but given that I won't be able to go back, I figured I'd enjoy the time I have left with using my Passport.

Additionally, while I like the Keyone design, I dislike a few things about it, and wish BBmobile took advantage of the really great features of the Passport in making new phones.

In my opinion, the Standard BlackBerry keyboard is inferior to the Passport 3 Row. It was an innovation that with the on-screen supplemental keys is the best keyboard that I've ever used. I realize some people like the classic style, but I don't. I hate that there isn't a Hardware Period Key (without shifting). That's a design flaw in my view.

I also really, really hate the Android 3-Key thing--really dated and ready to die. Having actual keys for that instead of Virtual is a major drawback for me, and a likely hindrance for gestures. So, any hardware phones that have that are behind the times in my view. It looks like the Keytwo also has that. I can't figure why anyone would do that.

I'd really love to see them implement a Passport style keyboard (meaning 3 row), which would enable them to make the phone a bit smaller perhaps, or balance it better or maybe fit a larger screen (depending on the other dimensions).

So, while I don't think the Key-X hardware looks BAD, I think there are better options out there that I hope are implemented. Maybe next year, they will be. If not, then I'm gonna be stuck with what I find to be a lesser design, but not a BAD design necessarily.

[Thud Hardsmack]

Well, as I see it--one android supplier to the next offers very little. It's all Android, and people don't seem too pleased with the software individual manufactures install.

BB10 had something different to offer--all the things BB10 fans talk about, enjoy and hold them back, even with essentially no functioning ecosystem.

People usually change around the launcher to suit their needs but the offerings can vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Samsung devices aren't just the default option people tend to go with, they're loaded to the gills with options.

[KAM1138]

People usually change around the launcher to suit their needs but the offerings can vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Samsung devices aren't just the default option people tend to go with, they're loaded to the gills with options.

What I mean is that these are all different flavors of Android.

[bb10adopter111]

Just replaces hitting the square with a gesture. Won't change the game any.

Somehow 85% of the world gets on fine with Android - including most of the third world with far less education.

Most of those users just open and use apps and use the OS to switch between them. They don't do a lot of serious multitasking. You're not really challenging the OS when you're scrolling a social network feed, watching a video or playing a game.

Personally, when using my Android, I detest having to constantly press the Home button or task switch button to move between functions. It's slow and inefficient having to go from A to B To C instead of going straight from A to C. Gestures are much more efficient, which is why Android and iOS are both moving in that direction, I presume.

For me, my KEYone is an app appliance, and my BB10 phones are email/SMS/BBM appliances. If I need to work quickly, BB10 is much more efficient, no matter how much I configure and Practice on the KEYone.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Thud Hardsmack]

Most of those users just open and use apps and use the OS to switch between them. They don't do a lot of serious multitasking. You're not really challenging the OS when you're scrolling a social network feed, watching a video or playing a game.

Personally, when using my Android, I detest having to constantly press the Home button or task switch button to move between functions. It's slow and inefficient having to go from A to B To C instead of going straight from A to C. Gestures are much more efficient, which is why Android and iOS are both moving in that direction, I presume.

For me, my KEYone is an app appliance, and my BB10 phones are email/SMS/BBM appliances. If I need to work quickly, BB10 is much more efficient, no matter how much I configure and Practice on the KEYone.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Everyone is putting their digits to the bottom of the screen and doing something that goes to a different screen and touching something else to do something else.

[bb10adopter111]

Everyone is putting their digits to the bottom of the screen and doing something that goes to a different screen and touching something else to do something else.

By that logic, there's no difference between any products ever that do similar things. Sorry, some things are better designed than others, and while preferences may be subjective, ergonomics are not.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Thud Hardsmack]

What I mean is that these are all different flavors of Android.

Yes. I highly recommend the "less is more" mentality with BlackBerry or Pixel. There's others but they come with compromises.

[Thud Hardsmack]

By that logic, there's no difference between any products ever that do similar things. Sorry, some things are better designed than others, and while preferences may be subjective, ergonomics are not.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Your assessment of the ergonomics is subjective, preferences are preferences.

[bb10adopter111]

Your assessment of the ergonomics is subjective, preferences are preferences.

With all due respect, ergonomics are a bit more sophisticated than "preferences". Whether I prefer a device or not has no bearing on measurable phenomena such as muscle fatigue, thumb or finger travel distance, time to complete tasks, missed or mistaken actions, etc.

To compare apples to apples, one should use similarly skilled and trained users when comparing platforms, but, while preferences are important to marketers, and while subjective feedback is often collected as a component of ergonomic research, the two are very different.

As an example, the swipe right within the Hub to access accounts is similar in functionality on the Android Hub and BB10, but there are objective differences in the ergonomics between that gesture on a Z10 and a KEYone:

1) On the Android, the right thumb must travel all the way to the left bezel to initiate the swipe gesture. If the user initiates the swipe short of the bezel, an action will be taken on the message beneath that finger instead. This means that the gesture requires a long travel distance for the right thumb and, more importantly, is very sensitive to user inconsistencies. By contrast, the travel distance on the Z10 is much shorter, and the swipe can be initiated from anywhere on the screen. The result is reduced fatigue and fewer mis-swipes on the Z10.

That doesn't make the Z10 superior, and it doesn't mean one should prefer it to the KEYone, but the ergonomics of that particular gesture are objectively faster and less fatiguing (due to a shorter thumb travel distance) and less prone to user error because the target area for initiating the swipe is much larger. Whether that matters to you is a preference, but the ergonomics are not.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[KAM1138]

Most of those users just open and use apps and use the OS to switch between them. They don't do a lot of serious multitasking. You're not really challenging the OS when you're scrolling a social network feed, watching a video or playing a game.

Personally, when using my Android, I detest having to constantly press the Home button or task switch button to move between functions. It's slow and inefficient having to go from A to B To C instead of going straight from A to C. Gestures are much more efficient, which is why Android and iOS are both moving in that direction, I presume.

For me, my KEYone is an app appliance, and my BB10 phones are email/SMS/BBM appliances. If I need to work quickly, BB10 is much more efficient, no matter how much I configure and Practice on the KEYone.

Posted with my trusty Z10

I wouldn't say that I'm a "power user" or anything, but working with BB10 is just more efficient. This back to home feels really antiquated.

[KAM1138]

Yes. I highly recommend the "less is more" mentality with BlackBerry or Pixel. There's others but they come with compromises.

The Nokia 6.1 is a "less is more" type and an "android one" phone, which I believe means it gets updates earlier--and that's a reason I got it--because I wanted to try the Android P gestures sooner rather than later.

The Blackberry "skin" seems beneficial to me, so I'm considering KeyOne or Key2 as a possibility, but perhaps (given the title of this thread) Key3.

OOOOH! I hope they DO come out with a Key3...for 3 row Keyboard.

HEY Blackberry Mobile--there's a free Marketing idea for you!

[Thud Hardsmack]

With all due respect, ergonomics are a bit more sophisticated than "preferences". Whether I prefer a device or not has no bearing on measurable phenomena such as muscle fatigue, thumb or finger travel distance, time to complete tasks, missed or mistaken actions, etc.

To compare apples to apples, one should use similarly skilled and trained users when comparing platforms, but, while preferences are important to marketers, and while subjective feedback is often collected as a component of ergonomic research, the two are very different.

As an example, the swipe right within the Hub to access accounts is similar in functionality on the Android Hub and BB10, but there are objective differences in the ergonomics between that gesture on a Z10 and a KEYone:

1) On the Android, the right thumb must travel all the way to the left bezel to initiate the swipe gesture. If the user initiates the swipe short of the bezel, an action will be taken on the message beneath that finger instead. This means that the gesture requires a long travel distance for the right thumb and, more importantly, is very sensitive to user inconsistencies. By contrast, the travel distance on the Z10 is much shorter, and the swipe can be initiated from anywhere on the screen. The result is reduced fatigue and fewer mis-swipes on the Z10.

That doesn't make the Z10 superior, and it doesn't mean one should prefer it to the KEYone, but the ergonomics of that particular gesture are objectively faster and less fatiguing (due to a shorter thumb travel distance) and less prone to user error because the target area for initiating the swipe is much larger. Whether that matters to you is a preference, but the ergonomics are not.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Literally, your assessment of the ergonomics of this specific case is subjective. If you really want to split hairs, the BB10 swipe gesture is actually longer in both time and physical motion. You don't start in the middle of the screen when you're in an app, you reach to the bottom. Then you swipe up and to the right, with a noticeable pause during the first half inch of the pull to the right. Or, you're reaching for one of eight open apps located on the screen with an extra swipe if you're going for the second four. Or perhaps you're needing to launch an app, then you you're swiping to the right at least once.

By comparison, Android allows for the icons to be completely rearranged suit your needs. I've got my daily-used apps in two rows on at the bottom of the screen, I can either drop the notification shade from the bottom row or tap the home button and travel to one of those icons in less than an inch and far faster animation time. Most used email functions are already on-screen, so I don't need to spend time accessing them. Nor do I need to open each message, last message in a thread is already expanded. I'm far more efficient now than I was with BB10. (CB email example below)

Do I hate BB10? No. I keep my Z10 powered up because I'm hugely nostalgic. But I do recognize BB10's limitations and recognize Android's advantages, and put them to use.

[bb10adopter111]

Literally, your assessment of the ergonomics of this specific case is subjective. If you really want to split hairs, the BB10 swipe gesture is actually longer in both time and physical motion. You don't start in the middle of the screen when you're in an app, you reach to the bottom. Then you swipe up and to the right, with a noticeable pause during the first half inch of the pull to the right. Or, you're reaching for one of eight open apps located on the screen with an extra swipe if you're going for the second four. Or perhaps you're needing to launch an app, then you you're swiping to the right at least once.

By comparison, Android allows for the icons to be completely rearranged suit your needs. I've got my daily-used apps in two rows on at the bottom of the screen, I can either drop the notification shade from the bottom row or tap the home button and travel to one of those icons in less than an inch and far faster animation time. Most used email functions are already on-screen, so I don't need to spend time accessing them. Nor do I need to open each message, last message in a thread is already expanded. I'm far more efficient now than I was with BB10. (CB email example below)

Do I hate BB10? No. I keep my Z10 powered up because I'm hugely nostalgic. But I do recognize BB10's limitations and recognize Android's advantages, and put them to use.

I wasn't assessing the swipe up gesture at all. I was assessing the swipe right WITHIN the Hub on both platforms. Preferences are subjective. Ergonomics, by definition, must be measurable. The analysis you describe, of the swipe up gesture to switch tasks in BB10 vs use of the home button or task switch button in Android is, as you indicate, more complex, but both can be described objectively in terms of ergonomics.

You also describe measurable elements of usability that are not strictly ergonomic, such as response time. Obviously that's an important factor that relates to user preference, efficiency, and user attention/concentration. The impact of that is also measurable in a controlled study.

Users are free to prefer whatever phone they like, but the design and performance factors that affect those preferences are eminently objective and measurable.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[john_v]

Any milliseconds I lose on a swipe in the Hub are made up for in spades by the fact I don't have to spend hours upon hours trying to get apps and email to work.

[Thud Hardsmack]

I wasn't assessing the swipe up gesture at all. I was assessing the swipe right WITHIN the Hub on both platforms. Preferences are subjective. Ergonomics, by definition, must be measurable. The analysis you describe, of the swipe up gesture to switch tasks in BB10 vs use of the home button or task switch button in Android is, as you indicate, more complex, but both can be described objectively in terms of ergonomics.

You also describe measurable elements of usability that are not strictly ergonomic, such as response time. Obviously that's an important factor that relates to user preference, efficiency, and user attention/concentration. The impact of that is also measurable in a controlled study.

Users are free to prefer whatever phone they like, but the design and performance factors that affect those preferences are eminently objective and measurable.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Quit moving the goalpost. Ergonomics includes time spent doing things. Can you pull from the middle of the screen on BB10? Sure. But then you're long-pressing items to get certain functions, tapping more often to do others, and generally reaching around just as much. Android hub has configurable swipe gestures to handle email to mitigate that, which is why there's no middle of the screen swipe to open accounts.

[Zaiah86]

Anyone else think that the new BB K2 looks like the newer upgraded BB PP?

[Kuruz]

Can't use old Android version of Instagram for direct messaging anymore. That's bad.

[danfrancisco]

Well, everyone here will tel you--BB10 Development isn't only dead--it's vaporized and buried to never be spoken of again.

.

Lol!

So many voices can still be heard from beneath the ground!

[KAM1138]

Any milliseconds I lose on a swipe in the Hub are made up for in spades by the fact I don't have to spend hours upon hours trying to get apps and email to work.

You have to put in time to get e-mail to work in BB10?

[KAM1138]

Lol!

So many voices can still be heard from beneath the ground!

Never speak of it AGAIN!

[bb10adopter111]

Quit moving the goalpost. Ergonomics includes time spent doing things. Can you pull from the middle of the screen on BB10? Sure. But then you're long-pressing items to get certain functions, tapping more often to do others, and generally reaching around just as much. Android hub has configurable swipe gestures to handle email to mitigate that, which is why there's no middle of the screen swipe to open accounts.

I agree that, in any comparison of usability and ergonomics (which are not the same thing), one must isolate the task being examined. The Android Hub has configurable swipe gestures for individual messages that the BB10 Hub does not, as you say. So, an analysis of tasks made simpler by those actions might well favor the Android Hub.

But that's not the analysis I was presenting in my response, where I was illustrating an ergonomic analysis of one specific task, not arguing for one version of the Hub, overall.

Can we agree that the differences between the BB10 Hub experience and the Android one are substantial enough, with different strengths and weaknesses, that a user choosing between staying with BB10 and migrating to Android would benefit from an analysis of the ergonomics and usability for the specific tasks he or she performs most frequently?

Posted with my trusty Z10

[YesAndNo]

I got 3 extra Passport SEs to last me for a long long time hehe..