06-27-14 03:01 AM
103 1234 ...
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  1. arvind1983's Avatar
    Thats exactly what I have been thinking whenever I saw the prototype. This should be the revolutionary keyboard we are talking about. LIke II Arrows said, look at the Classic in the Image, there is no backlight.

    Hi guys,

    There is an interesting patent filing from BlackBerry. A summary you can find here:
    BlackBerry Patents Touch Sensitive Keyboard Overlay -

    I guess there is a full touch screen, single color (white) display behind transparent keyboard buttons.

    It is much more easy and cheap for cables and control to have one big touch screen, instead of a tiny display built-in to each button separately. Then each button would need it's own controller chip. Thats crazy expensive.

    And I guess when the phone is off, there are no letters on the buttons.

    What you think?

    Posted via CB10
    06-20-14 10:19 AM
  2. dejanh's Avatar
    Thats exactly what I have been thinking whenever I saw the prototype. This should be the revolutionary keyboard we are talking about. LIke II Arrows said, look at the Classic in the Image, there is no backlight.
    Read the thread please. No OLED keyboard with changeable keys. It's just a regular keyboard supplemented with a virtual set of keys that pop up on screen.

    It will have some capacitive touch capabilities but what they are and how they are implemented right now is unknown.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    SenorPistachio likes this.
    06-20-14 10:28 AM
  3. II ARROWS's Avatar
    I guess they first want to see if people accept that form factor before they put something really innovative inside that cost a lot in R&D.
    And people will never accept that form factor if it's stupid...
    If you have to still use a small screen for typing when you have a "full" qwerty keyboard available, none would buy it. So there is no need to see if people accept it.

    That technology already exists, all they have to do is just miniaturize it... even if it costs a lot.
    06-20-14 10:32 AM
  4. II ARROWS's Avatar
    Read the thread please. No OLED keyboard with changeable keys. It's just a regular keyboard supplemented with a virtual set of keys that pop up on screen.
    Can you prove this?
    I cannot find any image that confirm your statement.
    06-20-14 10:33 AM
  5. SenorPistachio's Avatar
    Read the thread please. No OLED keyboard with changeable keys. It's just a regular keyboard supplemented with a virtual set of keys that pop up on screen.

    It will have some capacitive touch capabilities but what they are and how they are implemented right now is unknown.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    God i really hope that that's not true. If it is i will be forced to go for the Classic...

    I don't understand why they didn't do the 'revolutionary' keyboard thing with the four rows, leaving the keyboard as is. Can you imagine typing something and then having to select symbols from the screen above? Cause i can't. We'll just have to wait and see i guess.
    06-20-14 10:35 AM
  6. dejanh's Avatar
    Can you prove this?
    I cannot find any image that confirm your statement.
    Read the thread I linked in one of my posts. People got to see the final device at the Blackberry Experience London event. There is no doubt about the implementation.

    I'm going to take a wait and see approach with this device. I need to experience it in person to be able to tell if it is worth it. The other issue besides the keyboard is the almost-certain inability to run Android apps any better than the Q10 due to the aspect ratio. Scaling is impossible unless the display is letter boxed on left, right, and top, resulting in a 1x scale with a minuscule 3.24" diagonal display.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    06-20-14 10:35 AM
  7. II ARROWS's Avatar
    So... can you prove it?

    Yes or no... or do you expect that people will read a 9 pages thread to find what you want?
    And if you was referring about this post:
    Yes, that is the actually picture of the device. BUT, once you hold the device you will see how the size all makes sense and how 10.3 works with it. For one, that's a partial keyboard.. the rest comes up on the bottom of the device (just above where the physical keyboards are). The display also turns as your turn the device and then the keyboard becomes an almost trackpad like interface. It's really a great device.. oh, and did I mention how light it was. Very nice device.
    Well, it doesn't count...
    06-20-14 10:42 AM
  8. arvind1983's Avatar
    I read the thread every word. I know you posted a link referring to London Event. But it is not confirmed yet officially by BlackBerry, there is nothing wrong speculating. After all we are just discussing the possibilities here.

    Read the thread please. No OLED keyboard with changeable keys. It's just a regular keyboard supplemented with a virtual set of keys that pop up on screen.

    It will have some capacitive touch capabilities but what they are and how they are implemented right now is unknown.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    Last edited by arvind1983; 06-20-14 at 11:01 AM.
    06-20-14 10:45 AM
  9. lewis71980's Avatar
    I don't know how the whole keyboard could be touch sensitive. I'd imagine that that would be a warranty nightmare with all those moving parts?! Maybe just the spacebar could be touch sensitive?
    06-20-14 10:49 AM
  10. ummie4's Avatar
    Not too worried about a row of numbers and symbols popping up on the screen. Just because they are on the touchscreen doesn't nessisarily mean you have to touch them. I can see them lining up with the keys below. Once you spot the symbol you want just swipe up on any key on the keyboard that's in the same column as the symbol you want. The on screen symbols could become active when ever you are typing so no extra step or gesture needed.

    Posted via CB10
    06-20-14 11:25 AM
  11. ravenskman1's Avatar
    Like this: How do you think the Keyboard will do symbols / punctuation-beautmind.jpg
    06-20-14 12:23 PM
  12. dejanh's Avatar
    So... can you prove it?

    Yes or no... or do you expect that people will read a 9 pages thread to find what you want?
    And if you was referring about this post:


    Well, it doesn't count...
    Oh no! I expect you to read instead of assuming?! Also, "it doesn't count"? What?

    You can deny it all you want, it ain't going to bring you an OLED keyboard with live keys. So yes, I posted proof from people who actually got to use the device.

    Not too worried about a row of numbers and symbols popping up on the screen. Just because they are on the touchscreen doesn't nessisarily mean you have to touch them. I can see them lining up with the keys below. Once you spot the symbol you want just swipe up on any key on the keyboard that's in the same column as the symbol you want. The on screen symbols could become active when ever you are typing so no extra step or gesture needed.

    Posted via CB10
    Most likely this is how this works. Unfortunately we won't know until we have a better preview of the device. If done well it could be very effective.
    06-20-14 01:34 PM
  13. II ARROWS's Avatar
    So yes, I posted proof from people who actually got to use the device.
    Well, he said he used it... under NDA.

    I say I see dragons in the sky.
    06-20-14 05:27 PM
  14. dejanh's Avatar
    Well, he said he used it... under NDA.

    I say I see dragons in the sky.
    You're making yourself look dumb. Please stop. There is even a video now posted on BNN. It's pretty obvious that the keys are your standard backlit keys. Nothing special going on there. It will be interesting to see to what extent the keyboard is capacitive.

    Off topic, the device looks amazing to me. I'm really wanting one, especially after seeing that video. I also figured out that the Android app aspect problem could be solved easily by forcing the Android app to run in landscape mode. If they do that they will get double the vertical space and a perfectly scaled interface to boot. The screen is large enough that (if implemented right) the Android apps could actually look fantastic on a 1:1 aspect ratio device.
    06-21-14 01:03 AM
  15. BadGoliath42's Avatar
    As weird as that this keyboard seems to be, we are talking about BlackBerry here, the company that is making the best physical and virtual keyboard. I could not believe they didn't not try internally to have an efficient and fast keyboard for this phone; they are themselves BlackBerry users.

    Obviously I will have to try it before buying, but I trust they will find a way to make the keyboard right, even if there's a slight learning curve as with all different keyboards.

    Posted via CB10 on my Z30STA100-5/10.3.0.296
    gokulesh likes this.
    06-21-14 02:25 AM
  16. mas_quemex's Avatar
    The design is clever. Anybody who wants a physical keyboard is probably a heavy email shooter. So, alphabets only are hard wired. Digits & symbols could be enabled in shift mode. This is a big momma productivity tool !
    06-21-14 03:08 AM
  17. jojon2se's Avatar
    What is compelling, from an engineering and durability standpoint, is that if BB were (...or "did" - it doesn't really cost anything to leave the possibility open, however unlikely :7) indeed to build a keyboard, whose keycaps take back projection of glyphs from a (single, shared) touch OLED screen behind them; That could likely also mean there might be fewer moving parts, with the screen both taking the place of mechanical switches, for actual keypresses, and sensing the user's just grazing the keys, if it is possible to extend capacitive sensing through conductive keycaps (...and conductance to whatever mat may lay between them and the screen, providing springiness, and distinctive resistance and yield). (The screen would sense these conductive parts, in themselves, as touch, of course, but possibly there may be a detectable difference in response characteristics between them alone and "them plus a finger").

    It is going to be interesting to see how the Passport keyboard does work, even with switching to ALT likely only adding a keymap guide in the word prediction bar.

    I guess the reported slicing the keyboard into touch area columns, for swiping up to select predicted words (very much minding "Fitts's Law" ), could apply to downswipes as well, so that e.g. swiping down on the left or right half of the keyboard, could toggle different symbol sets.
    00stryder likes this.
    06-21-14 05:05 AM
  18. ofutur's Avatar
    dejanh is right, it's a standard Q10 keyboard which is more sensitive. It's the best of both worlds really, while we wait for a better technology to be affordable.
    Look at this video to understand how it probably works.

    Note how pressure sensitivity helps determine which keys the user really wants to hit. Helps remove mistakes automatically.

    Gestures
    • Swipes are time savers on the Zs, so to be able to do them on a qwerty is really awesome.
    • Word suggestion is much better on a BlackBerry 10 qwerty, no need to check if the word you want is on the next key, you just tap the one you want and in this case, just swipe up.
    • Need a capital letter? Just long press as usual (virtual SHIFT) and at the same time, you'll see all the accents, just above the keyboard, if you're sure that it's not faster to pick the word from suggestions made later on.
    • For symbols, you'll have to swipe down as there is no ALT key on this keyboard


    I think that there are better alternatives than going for tiny screens on a keyboard.
    By creating bumps on the lower part of the screen


    Or by letting the user feel different textures. Could be used for more than just the keyboard
    Last edited by ofutur; 06-21-14 at 07:11 AM.
    3_M4N likes this.
    06-21-14 06:47 AM
  19. craftEcowgirl's Avatar
    Its a deal breaker for me if one has to select characters on screen. Who wants to type on physical keyboard then select a comma, colon, number etc on scree? Seems backwards to me.

    Q10, running 10.2.1.2141
    SenorPistachio likes this.
    06-21-14 07:33 AM
  20. Mar Lut's Avatar
    What is compelling, from an engineering and durability standpoint, is that if BB were (...or "did" - it doesn't really cost anything to leave the possibility open, however unlikely :7) indeed to build a keyboard, whose keycaps take back projection of glyphs from a (single, shared) touch OLED screen behind them; That could likely also mean there might be fewer moving parts, with the screen both taking the place of mechanical switches, for actual keypresses, and sensing the user's just grazing the keys, if it is possible to extend capacitive sensing through conductive keycaps (...and conductance to whatever mat may lay between them and the screen, providing springiness, and distinctive resistance and yield). (The screen would sense these conductive parts, in themselves, as touch, of course, but possibly there may be a detectable difference in response characteristics between them alone and "them plus a finger").

    It is going to be interesting to see how the Passport keyboard does work, even with switching to ALT likely only adding a keymap guide in the word prediction bar.

    I guess the reported slicing the keyboard into touch area columns, for swiping up to select predicted words (very much minding "Fitts's Law" ), could apply to downswipes as well, so that e.g. swiping down on the left or right half of the keyboard, could toggle different symbol sets.
    Just look at the link to that BlackBerry patent that I post on the first page of this thread. It describes exactly what you said.

    I'm still hoping...

    Posted via CB10
    06-21-14 07:39 AM
  21. ofutur's Avatar
    Its a deal breaker for me if one has to select characters on screen. Who wants to type on physical keyboard then select a comma, colon, number etc on scree? Seems backwards to me.

    Q10, running 10.2.1.2141
    That's how the Q10 works and it's not so bad. It will be even better on the Passport, given that the keyboard is shorter.
    If you can easily type on a Z30, then you'll be at ease with a Passport since the top virtual row is located at the same distance from the bottom of the device.

    Z30
    vvvvvvvvv
    vvvvvvvvv
    vvvvvvvvv
    vvvvvvvvv
    bbbbbbbb
    cccccccc

    Passport
    vvvvvvvvv
    vvvvvvvvv
    kkkkkkkkk
    kkkkkkkkk
    kkkkkkkkk
    cccccccc
    06-21-14 08:18 AM
  22. jojon2se's Avatar
    Just look at the link to that BlackBerry patent that I post on the first page of this thread. It describes exactly what you said.

    I'm still hoping...

    Posted via CB10
    Interesting.

    I was imagining a single, compound, membrane, with zones of different conductance moulded right into it (thin outline, or single dot, around the key sensed, when key touched; Area around centre sensed, when the flexible dome collapses under depression) -- I wonder what all these layers do; It kind of looks, from the figures, like they include a conductor grid, under the "bubbles", to pick up keypresses, rather than using the capacitive touch sensing matrix for that too... I guess some may be parallax barriers, along with waveguides (alternatively: lenses), to bring the image crisply up to the keycap surface.

    One swiftly accessible keymap, that gave you cursor keys, mark/cut/copy/paste/clip_selection, and a scrollpad -- that would be yummie. :7
    06-21-14 09:19 AM
  23. ofutur's Avatar
    Just look at the link to that BlackBerry patent that I post on the first page of this thread. It describes exactly what you said.

    I'm still hoping...
    That patent is for a keyboard accessory, it doesn't apply to the Passport.
    I would love it if they could integrate it as a flip keyboard on some touch models.
    06-21-14 09:32 AM
  24. craftEcowgirl's Avatar
    That's how the Q10 works and it's not so bad. It will be even better on the Passport, given that the keyboard is shorter.
    Thats not how my Q10 works. I have comma, numbers etc on physical keyboard, which I use ALT and a key for. Only thing I type on screen is extra symbols. I am talking about all the symbols that are accessed with physical keyboard.



    Q10, running 10.2.1.2141
    06-21-14 09:42 AM
  25. jojon2se's Avatar
    That patent is for a keyboard accessory, it doesn't apply to the Passport.
    I would love it if they could integrate it as a flip keyboard on some touch models.
    The technical principles are the same. If you can do that with a snap-on accessory, you can do it (better) purpose-built.

    (Alas, if I had to bet, rather than dream, it would be on the Passport having just a regular keyboard, without cap touch or any other frills, that is "augmented" with a fourth "virtual" row on screen, that you do have to reach up to press.)
    06-21-14 09:48 AM
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