09-24-14 12:40 AM
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  1. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    Why are they having a public event on the 24th if the phone is not for consumers?
    Never heard of a company that sells to Enterprise customers having public events
    1st - It's like Lenovo. There main target is business's however it is a well known personal computer.
    2nd - It's all about hype. They have to hype the media for exposure.
    3rd - It is still for consumers. It just wasn't or won't be priced for the average consumer. By building this phone and they have almost created a gap. What does someone buy if they don't want passport for cost and don't want belt? Are they going to be making an updated Q10 when 10.4 comes out? Who knows.

    Posted via CB10
    09-03-14 11:06 PM
  2. insandouts's Avatar
    Define "correct hands" please.

    Posted via CB10
    he meant for the 0.0000001% willing to overpay for a device with the illusion that the price alone would set the device apart from the competition, even if the competing devices had better hardware and better ecosystems
    sentimentGX4, nah.uhh and mnc76 like this.
    09-03-14 11:25 PM
  3. insandouts's Avatar
    1st - It's like Lenovo. There main target is business's however it is a well known personal computer.
    2nd - It's all about hype. They have to hype the media for exposure.
    3rd - It is still for consumers. It just wasn't or won't be priced for the average consumer. By building this phone and they have almost created a gap. What does someone buy if they don't want passport for cost and don't want belt? Are they going to be making an updated Q10 when 10.4 comes out? Who knows.

    Posted via CB10
    Perhaps you are not aware that Enterprise customers are not willing to overpay...if you want to charge a premium those are not the customers you should seek. I guess you have no idea how businesses purchase things.
    09-03-14 11:28 PM
  4. Ohleo's Avatar
    Yeah I don't know what is in store for BB. I am trying to believe but it is hard to be realistic. This device will be a killer no doubt but it is debatable if it will hit numbers that will keep the ship sailing.

    Only time will tell but I hope this works
    09-04-14 12:06 AM
  5. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    Perhaps you are not aware that Enterprise customers are not willing to overpay...if you want to charge a premium those are not the customers you should seek. I guess you have no idea how businesses purchase things.
    Have you really owned a Blackphone? I have some questions:
    1. What was your motivation to buy this device?
    2. Does the OS differ much from a typical Android OS?
    3. Where did you buy it from? Is it available in retail or only online?

    I don't know much about this phone, just curious.

    Enterprise customers pay much less than the subsidized carrier rates that we see regardless of the device manufacturer. At that point there are many other things to consider like how IT is going to control the devices, what apps are required (if even needed), carrier choice and plan etc. I don't think that your statement is accurate. I know many companies that use iPhone 5C's and blackberry Q5's because is suits their needs. Again the iphone 5S, Samsung Galaxy 5S, Blackberry Passport are all "would be nice to have phones". If you would like to have them then you have to pay. If not then buy a Q10, SG4, iphone 5C or 4S etc.

    By the way I do very well at sales so I know how companies spend money. I am in the niche of a niche market and the "me too" market. I know how businesses spend money, when they see value and when the solution they are buying meets their needs.
    09-04-14 12:18 AM
  6. bitje's Avatar
    I like my bb device but I don't think it is a premium device.. my Q10 had a keyboard problem, the $ key being oversensitive.. a lot of people having the same problem.. but still no reaction from blackberry.. there is no point of contact other than sending the device for reparation through my provider and wait 4 weeks to get it back and hopefully fixed under warranty.. Now take the iPhone.. Apple has a quality assurance program.. I have the iPhone 5 for 2 years already with the factory warranty expired.. still it got fixed for free with a new sleep button, a new camera and a new battery.. and I got a loan iphone 5 phone during the period of repair... now *that* is a premium phone coming from a premium company.. so although I love my Q10 and I use it primarily as my daily driver.. with the last experience I don't think that blackberry will get my premium money again.. so to conclude, I think that the pasport should be cheap to make the right equation.

    Update:
    My blackberry Q10 got replaced because of the keyboard issue. I have a brand new Q10 now.. The 4 weeks told turned out to be just 1 week
    Last edited by bitje; 09-08-14 at 06:56 PM.
    mh1983 likes this.
    09-04-14 12:34 AM
  7. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    I like my bb device but I don't think it is a premium device.. my Q10 had a keyboard problem, the $ key being oversensitive.. a lot of people having the same problem.. but still no reaction from blackberry.. there is no point of contact other than sending the device for reparation through my provider and wait 4 weeks to get it back and hopefully fixed under warranty.. Now take the iPhone.. Apple has a quality assurance program.. I have the iPhone 5 for 2 years already with the factory warranty expired.. still it got fixed for free with a new sleep button, a new camera and a new battery.. and I got a loan iphone 5 phone during the period of repair... now *that* is a premium phone coming from a premium company.. so although I love my Q10 and I use it primarily as my daily driver.. with the last experience I don't think that blackberry will get my premium money again.. so to conclude, I think that the pasport should be cheap to make the right equation.
    Tough to beat that customer service. They have that figured out. I have heard this story numerous times that BB support is terrible. Unfortunately they aren't doing enough. I don't blame you for being upset. It is a value that Apple offers that Blackberry doesn't.
    09-04-14 12:50 AM
  8. dejanh's Avatar
    @HBW - bear with me since I'm exhausted and it's past midnight. I just want to go back to the gross profit discussion again for a second.

    $249 COGS
    SCN #1, 45% GM, SP $453, 1M subs, GP $204M
    SCN #2, 40% GM, SP $415, 1.25M subs, GP $207M

    Now, assume year over year growth of 5% in sales in both scenarios, and a steady SaaS ARPU of $15 per sub. By end of year 5, the HW and SaaS sales would look like this.

    SCN #1, HW GP $248M, SaaS REV $18M
    SCN #2, HW GP $252M, SaaS REV $23M

    Overall, by dropping the price by ~10%, you gain an extra $25 to $30 million over 5 years.

    As the last point, it is not all about COGS and margin. You need to consider the larger business strategy, as well as what impact a price reduction would make on gaining market share. That market share may result in additional growth that isn't so linear (when compared to the example presented above). Particularly, the extra market share may attract more developers who would in turn increase your ARPU through additional value added services and sales on BlackBerry World.

    Posted via CB10
    nah.uhh likes this.
    09-04-14 03:20 AM
  9. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    @HBW - bear with me since I'm exhausted and it's past midnight. I just want to go back to the gross profit discussion again for a second.

    $249 COGS
    SCN #1, 45% GM, SP $453, 1M subs, GP $204M
    SCN #2, 40% GM, SP $415, 1.25M subs, GP $207M

    Now, assume year over year growth of 5% in sales in both scenarios, and a steady SaaS ARPU of $15 per sub. By end of year 5, the HW and SaaS sales would look like this.

    SCN #1, HW GP $248M, SaaS REV $18M
    SCN #2, HW GP $252M, SaaS REV $23M

    Overall, by dropping the price by ~10%, you gain an extra $25 to $30 million over 5 years.

    As the last point, it is not all about COGS and margin. You need to consider the larger business strategy, as well as what impact a price reduction would make on gaining market share. That market share may result in additional growth that isn't so linear (when compared �to the example presented above). Particularly, the extra market share may attract more developers who would in turn increase your ARPU through additional value added services and sales on BlackBerry World.

    Posted via CB10
    Assuming the device will last 5 years. Judging the Z10, Z30, Q5 Q10, most of the BB10 devices currently available, it does not look like they will last for 3 years. Which is the essentially the lifespan of a cellphone from the manufacture point of view.
    09-04-14 08:06 AM
  10. tx ram's Avatar
    Pricing this high will only alienate the brand further from the hardcore BlackBerry fans that are awaiting it's launch. No body else is waiting for this square shape, query, ugly device.

    If you price this high then the only buyers the qwerty BlackBerry users will wait for it to drop prices by 60-70% like they did with the bb10 devices. And will further alienate the brand and the OS.

    The trick would be to get the phone into as many people's hands as possible so that the OS gets a boost. At the same time get more developers to adapt their apps already running from IOS and Play stores to the BlackBerry World.

    This is the only way forward for a dying brand like BlackBerry to take. Else doom will fall, only faster.

    Q5SQR100-3/10.2.1.3247
    himeshshah likes this.
    09-04-14 08:52 AM
  11. xandermac's Avatar
    Without those "Apple fanboyz" and "Android conformists" I'm afraid a device as quirky as the Passport won't sell a great deal, especially not to business that have no interest in quirky.
    09-04-14 09:33 AM
  12. dejanh's Avatar
    Assuming the device will last 5 years. Judging the Z10, Z30, Q5 Q10, most of the BB10 devices currently available, it does not look like they will last for 3 years. Which is the essentially the lifespan of a cellphone from the manufacture point of view.
    The lifespan of the Passport is irrelevant in my argument. You benefit from the extra sales due to a lower price point even in year 1. The point was just to illustrate that you cannot look at GM as the only indicator, especially when you are talking about a company that isn't only a hardware manufacturer. Also, if we want to get really technical, the lifespan of a smartphone from the manufacturer's standpoint is about the length of the provided warranty, in BlackBerry's case, 1 year. Warranty length is not arbitrarily set. It always considers average component failure rates. When you factor in a bunch of other stuff, probably the actual practical lifespan is 2 years in most cases.

    Further to this, even the R&D costs really aren't that relevant because over two or three generations of devices you may have only one true R&D cycle. Apple is a great example of this. Despite the consumer perception, they have largely been selling the same device since 2007. The bulk of the true R&D happened on the release of the first iPhone, and then again around iPhone 4S. The test of the time, the company has primarily invested in iterations, focusing on smaller R&D efforts to refine existing products.

    Posted via CB10
    09-04-14 09:59 AM
  13. Parrillas NY's Avatar
    should have a special pre order price in the Blackberry online store!! with a super special discount!!
    Mr4aces likes this.
    09-04-14 11:07 AM
  14. systemvolker's Avatar
    If you don't have money, dont buy.
    If you have extra, get it if you want.

    You built a product that cost you 10 cents to build and you wanna sell it for 6 cents. Lololololololololol

    Hehehe
    09-04-14 11:15 AM
  15. insandouts's Avatar
    I like my bb device but I don't think it is a premium device.. my Q10 had a keyboard problem, the $ key being oversensitive.. a lot of people having the same problem.. but still no reaction from blackberry.. there is no point of contact other than sending the device for reparation through my provider and wait 4 weeks to get it back and hopefully fixed under warranty.. Now take the iPhone.. Apple has a quality assurance program.. I have the iPhone 5 for 2 years already with the factory warranty expired.. still it got fixed for free with a new sleep button, a new camera and a new battery.. and I got a loan iphone 5 phone during the period of repair... now *that* is a premium phone coming from a premium company.. so although I love my Q10 and I use it primarily as my daily driver.. with the last experience I don't think that blackberry will get my premium money again.. so to conclude, I think that the pasport should be cheap to make the right equation.
    If your first Blackberry was a Q10 you are lucky because those like me that started with the curve had to go through quality problems all the time. You have to go through many devices before you get to one that works properly. Quality wise all their device are pretty bad but if you are lucky you miight get one that works well from day one, I never had that luck. LOL
    09-04-14 12:03 PM
  16. insandouts's Avatar
    If you don't have money, dont buy.
    If you have extra, get it if you want.

    You built a product that cost you 10 cents to build and you wanna sell it for 6 cents. Lololololololololol

    Hehehe
    A smartphone on average cost $150-250 to make. We are not saying to sell lower than cost just sell it at a reasonable price. I know that some idiots are saying that they would pay any price but the average consumer won't and shouldn't.
    dejanh, Mr4aces and nah.uhh like this.
    09-04-14 12:08 PM
  17. dejanh's Avatar
    If your first Blackberry was a Q10 you are lucky because those like me that started with the curve had to go through quality problems all the time. You have to go through many devices before you get to one that works properly. Quality wise all their device are pretty bad but if you are lucky you miight get one that works well from day one, I never had that luck. LOL
    I remember the Torch 9800. I had to exchange 5 phones, that's f-i-v-e, in 14 days. The first had display touch issues. The second, failed just as I was walking out of the store, literally. The third had a slider mechanism issue and the fourth had optical trackpad issues. The fifth one was finally OK. What makes this worse is that the phones were not from the same batch. I purposely went to different stores after experiencing consecutive failures.
    nah.uhh and Mr4aces like this.
    09-04-14 01:54 PM
  18. Mr4aces's Avatar
    A smartphone on average cost $150-250 to make. We are not saying to sell lower than cost just sell it at a reasonable price. I know that some idiots are saying that they would pay any price but the average consumer won't and shouldn't.
    I would think that if the phone cost $150-250 to produce they would have to get minimum 2.25-2.5 times the cost. Manufacturing and R&D is a lot of money and with BB's overhead I don't see this happening for less. Besides what about the margin on wholesale? They would be losing money below 175% of cost. Manufacturing margin when you have vendors is higher. You are looking at a list price of some where $600-700. Just my opinion.

    Slagman5 did some research on the stainless bezel/frame on the 9900/9930 and found out there is about 40-45 minutes of machine time on the bezel/frame. We all know how this stainless frame adds to the rigid stabilizability to the Bold. What do you think just this cost and the additional time for assembly? These are high quality products not the same as producing a mobile device out of plastic. Ask anyone that has taken apart a 9900/9930, it is a very well engineer. That is why it continues to be used by BlackBerry consumers.

    Maybe if BlackBerry is still in the mobile device business next year they will produce a PassPort made by Foxconn or another manufacturer that will be about 1/2 the cost to make it with a stainless frame.
    Last edited by Mr4aces; 09-04-14 at 03:34 PM.
    09-04-14 02:57 PM
  19. ThunderShock2005's Avatar
    If your first Blackberry was a Q10 you are lucky because those like me that started with the curve had to go through quality problems all the time. You have to go through many devices before you get to one that works properly. Quality wise all their device are pretty bad but if you are lucky you miight get one that works well from day one, I never had that luck. LOL
    I didn't have a problem with my Curves 8310 and 8320. Those survived me well. I treated them poorly and had them scratched up and dropped pretty badly, but they worked out fine. I even sold one of them and the chick was pretty happy about it (8320), having switched from her G1. The 8310 had a problem with the T key after 3 years and I sent it to recycling but still, that's the only problem it had. I didn't even have to replace the batteries on both! I did replace the trackball on the 8310 though.

    Posted via BlackBerry Q10 on AT&T
    Mr4aces and Iblamesummers like this.
    09-04-14 03:44 PM
  20. Resilience's Avatar
    A smartphone on average cost $150-250 to make. We are not saying to sell lower than cost just sell it at a reasonable price. I know that some idiots are saying that they would pay any price but the average consumer won't and shouldn't.
    There's nothing wrong with spending money on things you like, you can argue about this day and night at the end of the day, it's blsckberry who will be pricing these. I will be glad to pay whatever it is for the passport because I have the means.

    Posted via CB10
    Mr4aces likes this.
    09-04-14 03:56 PM
  21. mnc76's Avatar
    If you don't have money, dont buy.
    If you have extra, get it if you want.

    You built a product that cost you 10 cents to build and you wanna sell it for 6 cents. Lololololololololol

    Hehehe
    Wow...
    09-04-14 06:06 PM
  22. mnc76's Avatar
    I would think that if the phone cost $150-250 to produce they would have to get minimum 2.25-2.5 times the cost. Manufacturing and R&D is a lot of money and with BB's overhead I don't see this happening for less. Besides what about the margin on wholesale? They would be losing money below 175% of cost. Manufacturing margin when you have vendors is higher. You are looking at a list price of some where $600-700. Just my opinion.

    Slagman5 did some research on the stainless bezel/frame on the 9900/9930 and found out there is about 40-45 minutes of machine time on the bezel/frame. We all know how this stainless frame adds to the rigid stabilizability to the Bold. What do you think just this cost and the additional time for assembly? These are high quality products not the same as producing a mobile device out of plastic. Ask anyone that has taken apart a 9900/9930, it is a very well engineer. That is why it continues to be used by BlackBerry consumers.

    Maybe if BlackBerry is still in the mobile device business next year they will produce a PassPort made by Foxconn or another manufacturer that will be about 1/2 the cost to make it with a stainless frame.
    So, here's a question. What do people think the raw cost of the Passport is? Not including R&D.
    09-04-14 06:15 PM
  23. Mr4aces's Avatar
    So, here's a question. What do people think the raw cost of the Passport is? Not including R&D.
    I have no idea. I would "guess" $100-150 raw, but COG is about 35% of their overhead. So If it cost them $100/.35= $285.71 is the cost without profit on the low end.

    So $600-700 to me is reasonable to expect the pricing to be. If you take in account the mobile division of BlackBerry is being supported by the other divisions, the the actual cost is even higher.

    John Chen knows what he is doing he has a daily finger on what this is costing. Looking from the outside in with a tinted window my figures are just "guessing" based on business practices.
    09-04-14 07:09 PM
  24. early2bed's Avatar
    Apple is a great example of this. Despite the consumer perception, they have largely been selling the same device since 2007. The bulk of the true R&D happened on the release of the first iPhone, and then again around iPhone 4S. The test of the time, the company has primarily invested in iterations, focusing on smaller R&D efforts to refine existing products.
    If what you say is true then there is no hope for Blackberry pricing vs the competition. If Apple can sell essentially the same phone for 7 years at the volume they do and not spend much on R&D then how can Blackberry possibly produce multiple models at much lower volumes at anywhere near the cost?
    nah.uhh and Mr4aces like this.
    09-04-14 07:35 PM
  25. mnc76's Avatar
    I have no idea. I would "guess" $100-150 raw, but COG is about 35% of their overhead. So If it cost them $100/.35= $285.71 is the cost without profit on the low end.

    So $600-700 to me is reasonable to expect the pricing to be. If you take in account the mobile division of BlackBerry is being supported by the other divisions, the the actual cost is even higher.

    John Chen knows what he is doing he has a daily finger on what this is costing. Looking from the outside in with a tinted window my figures are just "guessing" based on business practices.
    Here is some info. It estimates that the Snapdragon 800 is sold in the $30s to low $40s (this is an estimate from April this year, and the 800 has been surpassed slightly in performance by the 801, and more by the 805, so it's price may no longer be that high).

    Didn't see at what volume the author estimates you need to order to get that price though.

    That would leave the screen, keyboard, chassis, and labour.

    So it looks like the COG (as you suggest) could be around $100? I have no idea how much the screen (which is pretty high end) and keyboard (with its fancy touch-sensitivity) cost though. So I could be way off.

    http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...napdragon.aspx

    Of course, we're all just estimating.

    Posted via CB10
    09-04-14 08:34 PM
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