09-24-14 12:40 AM
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  1. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Mercedes sells a fraction of the vehicles that Ford does. Which business model is better? One is high margin niche and the other is low cost cut throat. One has differentiators and others are "me too products". Blackberry wants to sell differentiators.
    But BlackBerry has no positive differentiators...

    I agree with you 100%. They do at least have a perception of being more secure. That is very valuable. Again their market is also not consumers. It is fortune 500 with an emphases on security. Different levels of companies are doing to want different things. I see lots of companies right now deploying iPhone 5C's and blackberry Q5's. The ones that want the premium phones need to pay for them. The value as you mentioned is in the BES and the services but if you aren't going to make any money on the phone why not sell them a Q5 or a Q10 vs. building an expensive phone for no profit. It's expected that they will sell fewer of the passports because they aren't intending for the average person.

    Again the ones who want them need to pay for them.
    You don't need a BlackBerry to get BES...

    Did you get the memo where iOS completely and utterly dominates the enterprise right now?

    Yes, there are SOME specialised areas where a BlackBerry is actually needed, but that's a niche of a niche within a niche.
    Nothing to get 10 million devices out of the door.

    BlackBerry is neiter a premium manufacturer anymore, nor does it offer what the competition offers.
    The only reasonable choice, would be to go down with the prices.
    Significantly fo go down.

    Every single BlackBerry product branded with BB10 or QNX was overpriced and failed in the market place.
    So yeah, margins are nice, but when you don't sell anything, while having high-margin products, then you will fail nonetheless.

    As I said above:
    The comparison with Mercedes is asinine.
    Mercedes actually adds some value to their products.
    Be it the safety features, the comfort features, or the prestige features.
    Mercedes also has some competition with Audi, BMW, Lexus and Infinitiy for example.

    Now, when you buy a BlackBerry, you basically get less of everything, not more (apart from a BES coupled BlackBerry. There you gain security. But the other platforms are also managed through an MDM, so yeah...)

    But the analogy fails at the most basic level:
    BlackBerry is no premium manufacturer anymore.
    The brand and the products aren't worth a premium.
    Which is in stark contrast to a Mercedes.

    By the way. It isn't dropping right now. It was in restructuring and survival mode. I would be shocked if the price went up during that time. Did you noticed that there was a slight uptick in sales last quarter? Rome wasn't built in a day (not that I expect blackberry to get back to it's glory days but I do expect greater things to come)
    Just like the BlackBerry stock traded on potential before the BB10 launch, to then fall into the abyss, the stock once again trades on potential.
    It all depends on if the Classic/Passport/BES 12 will be a success.

    The uptick we saw last quarter, happened because of cheaper devices and maybe a better image (as in, BlackBerry won't disappear in 1 quarter).
    Which directly contradicts your thesis of high prices being needed.
    BlackBerry is not a premium manufacturer anymore and the prices have to reflect that.
    Going heads-on against Samsung and Apple with their pricing, won't work, as the past proves.


    By the way pricing is almost always last in the minds of the people that are in the market for high end phones. The decision is in perceived value. Start watching apple keynote speeches and take note of how they tell you how the value of what they are selling you is a really good deal. This is what it comes down to. There aren't many people buying high end phones on price.
    Why are you stopping here, instead of going further with your analysis?

    The perceived value of a Samsung GS5 gets diminished the moment a One Plus One enters the market with the same package at half the price.

    The high-end market, with high-end prices will start to shrink, just as we saw it with the PC market.
    As the need for a high-end device disappears, because the added value shrinks, we will see the evolution of most manufacturers offering cheaper phones, that nearly provide the same experience as their high-end counter parts.

    There is a reason why Apple owns 80%+ of the 1000$+ Notebook market:
    Nobody else is able to convey the same added value.

    And now explain me why the hell BlackBerry should be able to sell mid-range phones, with negative differentiators, like other high-end phones.
    You get the worst ecosystem in the mobile market, the worst app store, one of the worst experience in terms of after sale support and one of the worst $/spec ratios.

    BlackBerry doesn't commad a premium price.
    It's just that simple.

    The Passport is going to be to be bundled with the Health care hook they now have, part of a solution. It will not be a discount device. Their discount devices already exist. The portfolio of devices is very healthy without being top or bottom heavy. Chen smartly offloaded the low end device risk by outsourcing it to Foxconn.
    The Passport will not be successfull in the health-care sector.
    Physicians already have their iPads with medical iOS apps.

    Every physician who wants to do his work on a 4.5 inch screen, instead of a 10 inch screen, sadly got it wrong (same for architects).

    Now onto the portfolio: Actually, the portfolio is lacking quite a bit.

    There is no reap low-end device, a la Moto G or Nokia Lumia 520.
    There is no high-end all touch device (nope, the Z30 is a midrange device in the lower tier of the midrange) .
    There is also no high-end touch on the horizon.
    There is no reason to still have the Z10 (except for unsold inventory), since the Z3 is basically the same thing.
    BlackBerry's focus on qwerty devices, is a huge misinterpretation of the market as well.

    So no, I wholeheartedly disagree.
    The portfolio is pretty bad.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 09-03-14 at 11:44 AM.
    dejanh, ljfong, Mr4aces and 2 others like this.
    09-03-14 11:08 AM
  2. tnewton3's Avatar
    ^^That is a long response. It sounds like you are against BlackBerry quite strongly. That's fine, we will enjoy the Passport, you can enjoy whatever it is you enjoy.

    Posted via Q10
    09-03-14 11:48 AM
  3. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    ^^That is a long response. It sounds like you are against BlackBerry quite strongly. That's fine, we will enjoy the Passport, you can enjoy whatever it is you enjoy.

    Posted via Q10
    If I am against them that strongly, I wouldn't have a BB10 device anymore.
    And I surely wouldn't consider the Passport (which are 2 thing that I do).

    Going by the premise of this thread though, I can't do anything else than shaking my head.
    BlackBerry doesn't play in the league of the big boys anymore, and asking them to keep high prices, is a way to ensure their disappearance into irrelevancy (even more than they currently are).

    The days of high-margins and overpriced devices are pretty much coming to an end, if you aren't one of the top tier manufacturers.
    And BlackBerry isn't one of them for quite some time now...

    Posted via CB10
    dejanh, nah.uhh and Mr4aces like this.
    09-03-14 12:00 PM
  4. dejanh's Avatar
    If I am against them that strongly, I wouldn't have a BB10 device anymore.
    And I surely wouldn't consider the Passport (which are 2 thing that I do).

    Going by the premise of this thread though, I can't do anything else than shaking my head.
    BlackBerry doesn't play in the league of the big boys anymore, and asking them to keep high prices, is a way to ensure their disappearance into irrelevancy (even more than they currently are).

    The days of high-margins and overpriced devices are pretty much coming to an end, if you aren't one of the top tier manufacturers.
    And BlackBerry isn't one of them for quite some time now...

    Posted via CB10
    First post was long and unpolished, but it hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I argued in my response to HBW. BlackBerry has no value differentiators and cannot command a premium (or even close to a premium) price.
    MarsupilamiX and Mr4aces like this.
    09-03-14 12:17 PM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    First post was long and unpolished, but it hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I argued in my response to HBW. BlackBerry has no value differentiators and cannot command a premium (or even close to a premium) price.
    The first post was my ad-hoc reaction to the things I read in here, so yeah, it was long and unpolished.

    The second one was the TLDR, if you want so

    But yeah, it seems like some in here still haven't understood in what position BlackBerry is actually in.
    They aren't a premium manufacturer anymore and they don't have the killer features to command a premium price.

    So every single time I read things like "BlackBerry can't appear too cheap" or "Businesses have so much money to throw around, better milk them as much as you can", I am sitting in my armchair, and I wonder in which reality those great minds reside in...

    Posted via CB10
    Mr4aces and JeepBB like this.
    09-03-14 12:37 PM
  6. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    But BlackBerry has no positive differentiators...
    You don't need a BlackBerry to get BES...
    Did you get the memo where iOS completely and utterly dominates the enterprise right now?
    Yes, there are SOME specialised areas where a BlackBerry is actually needed, but that's a niche of a niche within a niche.
    Nothing to get 10 million devices out of the door.

    BlackBerry is neiter a premium manufacturer anymore, nor does it offer what the competition offers.
    The only reasonable choice, would be to go down with the prices.
    Significantly fo go down.

    Every single BlackBerry product branded with BB10 or QNX was overpriced and failed in the market place.
    So yeah, margins are nice, but when you don't sell anything, while having high-margin products, then you will fail nonetheless.
    As I said above:
    The comparison with Mercedes is asinine.
    Mercedes actually adds some value to their products.
    Be it the safety features, the comfort features, or the prestige features.
    Mercedes also has some competition with Audi, BMW, Lexus and Infinitiy for example.
    Now, when you buy a BlackBerry, you basically get less of everything, not more (apart from a BES coupled BlackBerry. There you gain security. But the other platforms are also managed through an MDM, so yeah...)

    But the analogy fails at the most basic level:
    BlackBerry is no premium manufacturer anymore.
    The brand and the products aren't worth a premium.
    Which is in stark contrast to a Mercedes.
    Just like the BlackBerry stock traded on potential before the BB10 launch, to then fall into the abyss, the stock once again trades on potential.
    It all depends on if the Classic/Passport/BES 12 will be a success.
    The uptick we saw last quarter, happened because of cheaper devices and maybe a better image (as in, BlackBerry won't disappear in 1 quarter).
    Which directly contradicts your thesis of high prices being needed.
    BlackBerry is not a premium manufacturer anymore and the prices have to reflect that.
    Going heads-on against Samsung and Apple with their pricing, won't work, as the past prove
    Why are you stopping here, instead of going further with your analysis?

    The perceived value of a Samsung GS5 gets diminished the moment a One Plus One enters the market with the same package at half the price.
    The high-end market, with high-end prices will start to shrink, just as we saw it with the PC market.
    As the need for a high-end device disappears, because the added value shrinks, we will see the evolution of most manufacturers offering cheaper phones, that nearly provide the same experience as their high-end counter parts.
    There is a reason why Apple owns 80%+ of the 1000$+ Notebook market:
    Nobody else is able to convey the same added value.
    And now explain me why the hell BlackBerry should be able to sell mid-range phones, with negative differentiators, like other high-end phones.
    You get the worst ecosystem in the mobile market, the worst app store, one of the worst experience in terms of after sale support and one of the worst $/spec ratios.
    BlackBerry doesn't commad a premium price.
    It's just that simple.
    The Passport will not be successfull in the health-care sector.
    Physicians already have their iPads with medical iOS apps.
    Every physician who wants to do his work on a 4.5 inch screen, instead of a 10 inch screen, sadly got it wrong (same for architects).
    Now onto the portfolio: Actually, the portfolio is lacking quite a bit.
    There is no reap low-end device, a la Moto G or Nokia Lumia 520.
    There is no high-end all touch device (nope, the Z30 is a midrange device in the lower tier of the midrange) .
    There is also no high-end touch on the horizon.
    There is no reason to still have the Z10 (except for unsold inventory), since the Z3 is basically the same thing.
    BlackBerry's focus on qwerty devices, is a huge misinterpretation of the market as well.
    So no, I wholeheartedly disagree.
    The portfolio is pretty bad.
    Posted via CB10
    The value of Blackberry is the following:
    - Only QWERTY keyboard on the market
    - Industry perceived highest level of security (again I am not talking about consumer)
    - Full end to end BES solution and Blend on iOS, Android and coming to Windows, BES cloud
    - Blackberry hardware will be a big part of the IOT success
    - Peak, flow, productivity of BB10

    Hardware is hardware. There are always going to be people who want an elantra, sonata, Santa Fe and a Genesis. What you are suggesting is that they sell all those at a price that everyone can afford. I don't buy a Genesis because I can't afford a Genesis (and I am frugal). I would buy a Q10 (which I have) because I don't need the Passport and because I don't want the belt or full touch. It suits my price point at ~$200-250 when the first came out. The value to me is that if feels good (not a Q5), it's a productivity workhorse which iOS and Android are not and it's reliable. The security isn't important to me but I still see a lot of value in Blackberry.

    Margin's, Margin's, Margin's
    09-03-14 12:47 PM
  7. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    The first post was my ad-hoc reaction to the things I read in here, so yeah, it was long and unpolished.
    The second one was the TLDR, if you want so
    But yeah, it seems like some in here still haven't understood in what position BlackBerry is actually in.
    They aren't a premium manufacturer anymore and they don't have the killer features to command a premium price.
    So every single time I read things like "BlackBerry can't appear too cheap" or "Businesses have so much money to throw around, better milk them as much as you can", I am sitting in my armchair, and I wonder in which reality those great minds reside in...
    Posted via CB10
    Premium is porche phone. High end phone is passport. We are talking about high end as in hardware, not feature set.
    09-03-14 12:49 PM
  8. iamagod's Avatar
    It will be $699.99CAD at least. And more likely $750-800CAD. BlackBerry has never had these competitive specs before and devices routinely sold for $600+.

    Posted via CB10
    09-03-14 12:51 PM
  9. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    As I have stated in many post, BlackBerry is no longer a company that can price their products the same as the big boys and expect them to sell. They must price the passport as to get the device into folks hands, whether it's the corporate customer or the consumer.

    If you think that corporations are going to just open up their pocketbooks and buy new capital equipment, your dead wrong. There is a reason why BYOD programs are being implemented, because they save them lots of money!!!!

    BlackBerry needs a killer device with a price point that will attract customers. Get folks talking about their products again, with all the security issues going on in the corporate and consumer sectors, this is the perfect time.

    Price the passport at or below 499 US and get folks interested. Price the thing based off if what you have done is the past??? This is one of the primary reasons why your in the current position your are in. Just my two cents.

    Sent from my Lovely z30 on T Mobile USA (10.3.0.1052)
    I assume you are only talking about iphone. I believe that is the only premium phone on the market. Samsung's S5 is a plastic phone.
    09-03-14 12:51 PM
  10. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    BlackBerry doesn't play in the league of the big boys anymore
    Posted via CB10
    Who are the big boys? Samsung, iPhone, Windows Phone?

    I beg to differ. I see 4 high end phone classes that are actually competing.
    iPhone (latest)
    Blackberry (Q10, Passport, Z10, Z30) all have their target market
    Samsung Galaxy, Note
    Microsoft Lumina (latest)

    These are the only real 4 options as far as I am concerned. You don't see Blackberry in this space?
    09-03-14 01:02 PM
  11. Acumenight's Avatar
    Passport needs to be priced as a Superior product, say at off contract $799 USD. This way, the users will show it off as a superior product. However, BB should give some sort of "try out the innovation" rebate period of say 3 months, knocking the price down to ~$500. This way, it remains a pricey superior good, yet can sell like cake.
    09-03-14 01:08 PM
  12. mnc76's Avatar
    I agree with MarsupilamiX.

    The analogy with high-end car manufacturers is grossly flawed.

    1. Mercedes has a highly respected brand.

    2. Mercedes' are universal status symbols

    3. People do not have fears (real or imagined) about Mercedes going out of business in the near future.

    4. Mercedes has a well established history of selling cars at a premium and people actually buying them.

    Let's compare to BlackBerry :

    1. Blackberry's brand is routinely laughed at, dismissed, and is the constant bu tt of jokes on even respected tech publications. BlackBerry is considered irrelevant by the tech press and majority of average users.

    2. BlackBerry is no longer a status symbol. Having a blackberry can make one the bu tt of jokes about being behind the times. This is exactly the OPPOSITE of a status symbol.

    3. Many average people and tech publications still believe BlackBerry is on the verge of bankruptcy or has already gone out of business. Point of sale staff even routinely pass this misinformation on to consumers that would otherwise give BB10 a chance.

    4. BlackBerry has NO history of selling premium priced BB10 phones and being successful at it. EVERY SINGLE TIME they have done this, the results have been completely disastrous.

    Given this, I suggest we permanently put the "high end car" analogy to rest. It is a deeply flawed analogy.

    Posted via CB10
    09-03-14 01:10 PM
  13. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Premium is porche phone. High end phone is passport. We are talking about high end as in hardware, not feature set.
    The One Plus One has pretty much the same specs and sells for half the price as the Passport.

    The current Android Flagships have better hardware already, and are either cheaper or just as expensive.
    But you get a better value proposition with them.
    Be in terms of Apps, ecosystem or specs.

    Apple, even if disregarded often in terms of high-end hardware, will very probably beat the Passport as well.
    Maybe not in terms of RAM, but surely in terms of CPU/GPU performance, a better camera, the best after sale support in existence of a smartphone selling company, the best ecosystem and the best app store.

    So yeah, there are high-end phones and high-end phones.
    And some of those are actually worth the premium you pay over a midrange phone, some of them are high-end devices and cost just as much as a high-end devices.
    And some, like the Z30 when it launched, were midrange devices with high-end price tag.

    Just in case of you confusing the expression "paying a premium", with a "premium device", I didn't use those interchangeably.
    Also, premium, as in "premium phone", is a rather worthless adjective.
    "Luxury Phone" would be more adequate to talk about a Porsche Phone.

    The value of Blackberry is the following:
    - Only QWERTY keyboard on the market
    - Industry perceived highest level of security (again I am not talking about consumer)
    - Full end to end BES solution and Blend on iOS, Android and coming to Windows, BES cloud
    - Blackberry hardware will be a big part of the IOT success
    - Peak, flow, productivity of BB10

    Hardware is hardware. There are always going to be people who want an elantra, sonata, Santa Fe and a Genesis. What you are suggesting is that they sell all those at a price that everyone can afford. I don't buy a Genesis because I can't afford a Genesis (and I am frugal). I would buy a Q10 (which I have) because I don't need the Passport and because I don't want the belt or full touch. It suits my price point at ~$200-250 when the first came out. The value to me is that if feels good (not a Q5), it's a productivity workhorse which iOS and Android are not and it's reliable. The security isn't important to me but I still see a lot of value in Blackberry.

    Margin's, Margin's, Margin's
    Qwrty devices are what I call a negative differentiator.
    It's a reason not to buy a device and the focus on that category, is one of the reasons BlackBerry is so irrelevant nowadays.

    It is however, an existant niche. Doubtful that you'll get 10M customers with that.

    BES is cross platform and I didn't talk about the SaS side, when I talked about BlackBerry.
    I focused on their handsets.
    But yes, BES is a positive differentiator for BlackBerry, just not constrained to their phones.

    iOS dominates the enterprise nowadays and gets managed through an MDM as well.
    So the the perceived highest degree of security and the end to end solution, is pretty much meaningless, when "everyone" buys phones from the competition nonetheless.

    BES, as a spin-off from the BlackBerry handset division, is worth a lot though.
    Just not the handset division itself. At least not in their current form and with their current pricing strategy.

    IOT and where it is actually going, is something nobody knows by now.
    Until this has become something countable, it's not a differentiator.
    It's basically inexistant at this point in time.
    And if BlackBerry ever breaks into that market successfully (how ever the IOT marker will look like), is something we can't possibly know.
    That's something I'd call vapourware.

    The HUB counts. It's a nice added value, but, if we would give it a coefficient in terms of importance, it probably ranks in the lowest brackets of what smartphone customers seek.
    Flow has been "copied" on both iOS and Android by now.
    The productivity you speak of, gets highly downgraded, through the inexistance of an ecosystem and apps.
    Both are things with a far higher coefficient in terms of importance than the HUB.
    Most Android and iOS users can be far more productive on their phones than a BlackBerry user, simply because of productivity apps, BB10 has no access to.

    So all in all, BlackBerry has keyboards and an end to end solution.
    Going by sale numbers, I'd wager a lot, that this isn't enough.
    Especially because of the obvious shortcomings BlackBerry phones have.

    You also ignore that most users don't want a work phone and a personal phone nowadays, but a phone that is able to provide both.
    Another front where BlackBerry just doesn't deliver.
    (even though they have balance. But a consumer phone without consumer apps / ecosystem is worthless. As the sale numbers prove).

    Now, I agree with your very last sentence.
    There is value in the company called BlackBerry.
    Just not in their phones.

    Posted via CB10
    dejanh and Hai Bo like this.
    09-03-14 01:18 PM
  14. chrysaurora's Avatar
    App situation will improve significantly once BlackBerry 10 improves it's penetration. So, from that standpoint, I am happy to see Passport priced at break-even price!

    On the other hand, if they price it at break-even, they'd not be able to command higher margins in future.

    So, what's the solution? Here:

    1. Price it close to iPhone/Galaxy. For example, something like $600 - $650 WITHOUT contract ($100 to $150 with contract)
    2. Let existing BlackBerry users trade-in their old BlackBerry for a Passport for break-even price (say, $300 without contract, $0 with contract).


    This lets you keep a good, high margin price and at the same time allows you to significantly increase BB10 OS penetration. Imagine if only 15% of existing BB users were persuaded to BB 10. That'd be like some 10 M new users to BB 10.
    09-03-14 01:20 PM
  15. insandouts's Avatar
    Premium is porche phone. High end phone is passport. We are talking about high end as in hardware, not feature set.
    Sorry pal but the Passport is not high end - the 5s and soon 6 are. This one too The Galaxy Note Edge is a flagship phone with an entirely new kind of curved display | The Verge

    You are making the mistake into thinking that pricing something high will automatically make the product "high end". I go to Vegas during convention season and when it is busy the local Motel 6 has room at $300-400 a night but guess what? that does not make that hotel "high end"...it is still a dump
    Last edited by insandouts; 09-03-14 at 01:31 PM.
    sentimentGX4 likes this.
    09-03-14 01:20 PM
  16. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Who are the big boys? Samsung, iPhone, Windows Phone?

    I beg to differ. I see 4 high end phone classes that are actually competing.
    iPhone (latest)
    Blackberry (Q10, Passport, Z10, Z30) all have their target market
    Samsung Galaxy, Note
    Microsoft Lumina (latest)

    These are the only real 4 options as far as I am concerned. You don't see Blackberry in this space?
    BlackBerry has a marketshare of under 1%, at the end of the year.

    The hardware used in their current phones are at least 2 generations behind everything else that was available on the market at the same time.
    So no, nothing that is currently available from BlackBerry is high-end, or ever was high-end.
    The Z30/10 and the Q5/10 are all midrange devices, which got a high-end price.

    The Big Boys nowadays, are Apple and Samsung.
    Then you have smaller players like HTC, Sony, Nokia.
    In their wake, are Chinese manufacturers who start to enter international markets.
    At the end, there are "others". This is where BlackBerry currently belongs to.

    I assume you are only talking about iphone. I believe that is the only premium phone on the market. Samsung's S5 is a plastic phone.
    I think that you should take "premium" as "high-end" in that context, as you pay a premium over the midrange, to get a high-end phone.

    And plastic, depending on how it's used, can be a high-end material.

    Given this, I suggest we permanently put the "high end car" analogy to rest. It is a deeply flawed analogy.

    Posted via CB10
    You have no idea how happy that would make me.
    Every single time I read a car analogy in here, I just shake my head and start to cry, because they are still sooooo bad.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 09-03-14 at 01:43 PM.
    JeepBB likes this.
    09-03-14 01:25 PM
  17. mnc76's Avatar
    @ MarsupilamiX

    I think that BlackBerry's security advantages may be becoming more and more relevant -- particularly with the recent iCloud hack*.

    It should make businesses (especially medium and large corporations) think twice about storing sensitive data on their employees' consumer-oriented personal phones.


    * - Despite Apple's claims, the hack was their fault. Their 'find my phone' feature allowed hackers to make thousands and thousands of failed login attempts on each account until they -- by pure trial and error -- found the correct password. And it allowed the hackers to do this without ever notifying the user or locking the account. This means that even having a "strong" password would not be enough to prevent a user's account from being accessed.

    Posted via CB10
    09-03-14 01:28 PM
  18. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    Blackberry is marketing the passport to high end niche industries and corporate enterprise. Thus there is more value in establishing the PASSPORT's reputation as a real high tech business device. Its specs and uniqueness already give it an edge. Thus I believe that the corporatocracy would want a product which is recognized as a more expensive option compared to an i-phone. It seems unorthodox business thinking, but something tells me its the right move.

    Thoughts? Am I wrong in thinking expensive, is better, from a branding standpoint?
    It is a complete illusion that corporations are flushed with money and pay any amount for anything. Many are very cost conscious and have opted Windows Phone for this reason.

    Also, even if Blackberry wanted to charge a premium for its phones, it needs to justify the price with specs and the Passport simply does not justify being priced greater than an iPhone or Galaxy Note at the moment. In particular, the next gen Apple processor will likely smoke all the Android (and Blackberry) competition that have been on Snapdragon 800/801s for more than a year now.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    09-03-14 01:32 PM
  19. anon(8865116)'s Avatar
    But BlackBerry has no positive differentiators...



    You don't need a BlackBerry to get BES...

    Did you get the memo where iOS completely and utterly dominates the enterprise right now?

    Yes, there are SOME specialised areas where a BlackBerry is actually needed, but that's a niche of a niche within a niche.
    Nothing to get 10 million devices out of the door.

    BlackBerry is neiter a premium manufacturer anymore, nor does it offer what the competition offers.
    The only reasonable choice, would be to go down with the prices.
    Significantly fo go down.

    Every single BlackBerry product branded with BB10 or QNX was overpriced and failed in the market place.
    So yeah, margins are nice, but when you don't sell anything, while having high-margin products, then you will fail nonetheless.

    As I said above:
    The comparison with Mercedes is asinine.
    Mercedes actually adds some value to their products.
    Be it the safety features, the comfort features, or the prestige features.
    Mercedes also has some competition with Audi, BMW, Lexus and Infinitiy for example.

    Now, when you buy a BlackBerry, you basically get less of everything, not more (apart from a BES coupled BlackBerry. There you gain security. But the other platforms are also managed through an MDM, so yeah...)

    But the analogy fails at the most basic level:
    BlackBerry is no premium manufacturer anymore.
    The brand and the products aren't worth a premium.
    Which is in stark contrast to a Mercedes.



    Just like the BlackBerry stock traded on potential before the BB10 launch, to then fall into the abyss, the stock once again trades on potential.
    It all depends on if the Classic/Passport/BES 12 will be a success.

    The uptick we saw last quarter, happened because of cheaper devices and maybe a better image (as in, BlackBerry won't disappear in 1 quarter).
    Which directly contradicts your thesis of high prices being needed.
    BlackBerry is not a premium manufacturer anymore and the prices have to reflect that.
    Going heads-on against Samsung and Apple with their pricing, won't work, as the past proves.




    Why are you stopping here, instead of going further with your analysis?

    The perceived value of a Samsung GS5 gets diminished the moment a One Plus One enters the market with the same package at half the price.

    The high-end market, with high-end prices will start to shrink, just as we saw it with the PC market.
    As the need for a high-end device disappears, because the added value shrinks, we will see the evolution of most manufacturers offering cheaper phones, that nearly provide the same experience as their high-end counter parts.

    There is a reason why Apple owns 80%+ of the 1000$+ Notebook market:
    Nobody else is able to convey the same added value.

    And now explain me why the hell BlackBerry should be able to sell mid-range phones, with negative differentiators, like other high-end phones.
    You get the worst ecosystem in the mobile market, the worst app store, one of the worst experience in terms of after sale support and one of the worst $/spec ratios.

    BlackBerry doesn't commad a premium price.
    It's just that simple.



    The Passport will not be successfull in the health-care sector.
    Physicians already have their iPads with medical iOS apps.

    Every physician who wants to do his work on a 4.5 inch screen, instead of a 10 inch screen, sadly got it wrong (same for architects).

    Now onto the portfolio: Actually, the portfolio is lacking quite a bit.

    There is no reap low-end device, a la Moto G or Nokia Lumia 520.
    There is no high-end all touch device (nope, the Z30 is a midrange device in the lower tier of the midrange) .
    There is also no high-end touch on the horizon.
    There is no reason to still have the Z10 (except for unsold inventory), since the Z3 is basically the same thing.
    BlackBerry's focus on qwerty devices, is a huge misinterpretation of the market as well.

    So no, I wholeheartedly disagree.
    The portfolio is pretty bad.

    Posted via CB10
    Honestly, I think he's right. I still want a passport but only because I'm a geek and want to try something new. Blackberry can't expect to price the passport at a price like the samsung note 4 and iPhone 6 (large screen) because it literally offers nothing better from a hardware or software perspective beyond the OS itself. Qwerty is a massive niche, and i hate to say it but blackberry qwerty is even a smaller niche. A lot of people want a qwerty android and my assumption is that it's a bigger niche than blackberry keyboards. /Controversial. I'm not saying I want an android blackberry, no far from it. I want a user base to WANT blackberry more than today. And I'm not talking about hardware, you can't expect to toss in more PPI and ram to pull people away from android. You don't have the app compatibility or enough software differences that would make people reconsider. I think one of the problems is that nobody (generally) cares about security. Shame on them but I would argue a blackberry without BES is no more secure than an iphone/android anyway. They could fix that but I don't think anyone would care beyond drug dealers, recently exposed celebrities (probably not), and miscreants in general. If you haven't noticed, most of the people who want security, can't even get it. The NSA literally has everything on you. If it's not your phone that's tappable, it's your banking info, your credit info, your email, your text messaging (short of protected bbm of course ), your cloud storage exc exc. Honestly, the phone is a small part of your life now compared to everything on the internet. Its interface with the rest of the internet is the most salient part... and blackberry can't protect that info

    Blackberry needs a decent marketshare back before it can start coming out with high end phones and pricing them the same as the other high ends. I heard the iPhone 6 (the bigger version) might be around 800 so that's good but somehow i still think that they've worked out with carriers that the subsidized monthly price will just be higher instead of the upfront cost. I don't think any carrier would do that for blackberry because no substantial marketshare wants their phones enough for them do any favors
    09-03-14 01:52 PM
  20. Douken's Avatar
    I don't know who prices this, but I think depending on the market, specifically Indonesia it will be priced aggressively because people already like BlackBerry. Unfortunately we're in a global economy and news fly instantly, so there's no way to isolate prices. So I'm guessing they will release in hot markets first and while it devaluates they will start releasing in other markets at different prices.

    Bit then again, I'm not an expert on the subject

    Visit GTR Lifestyle @ C001247FA
    Last edited by Douken; 09-03-14 at 02:26 PM.
    09-03-14 01:59 PM
  21. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    BlackBerry has a marketshare of under 1%, at the end of the year.
    The hardware used in their current phones are at least 2 generations behind everything else that was available on the market at the same time.
    So no, nothing that is currently available from BlackBerry is high-end, or ever was high-end.
    The Z30/10 and the Q5/10 are all midrange devices, which got a high-end price.
    The Big Boys nowadays, are Apple and Samsung.
    Then you have smaller players like HTC, Sony, Nokia.
    In their wake, are Chinese manufacturers who start to enter international markets.
    At the end, there are "others". This is where BlackBerry currently belongs to.
    I think that you should take "premium" as "high-end" in that context, as you pay a premium over the midrange, to get a high-end phone.
    And plastic, depending on how it's used, can be a high-end material.
    You have no idea how happy that would make me.
    Every single time I read a car analogy in here, I just shake my head and start to cry, because they are still sooooo bad.
    Posted via CB10
    Point #1
    Who cares what the market share of Blackberry is. Not sure how that reflects how they should price phones.
    I know you don't like the car analogy (or hate it) but again why have all models if you are not going to make margin equal or higher margin on the upper value devices. I would rather not make it and sell average devices. If you are suggesting blackberry cut prices on all their phones to sell more then look back at my original example of how discounting effects gross profit. It's sales 101.
    The important thing is that they turn that 1% into 1.1% next year and 1.21% the year after with a solid base.

    Point #2
    In what way is the hardware 2 generations behind? Perhaps you are looking at spec's verses requirements. That is like you telling me that a 12 mp camera is better than an 8 mp camera. If the passport is not high end then where do you place it? And where do you place the other phones from Blackberry? When using your phone does it hang up crash or lag? What is the hardware in your phone not doing that it should be able to do? Do you think that shoving 3 GB RAM in a phone makes is a high end phone? Z10, Q10 don't require it.

    Point #3
    I do agree that the Z30 / 10 and the Q5/10 are mid range devices. Perhaps they should have come out cheaper. Would this have changed their situation? As mentioned previously I think that they could have repackaged and iphone and still have been in this situation. They missed the market (by arguable 2 years)

    Point #4
    Apple and Samsung have the best market perception. Not sure that makes them the big boys in terms of spec's. That is like saying that Dr. Beats are the best head phones (sorry to break it to you, they are not. They just spend a lot of money on advertising and packaging. Best experience, no best quality)

    Point #5
    Outside of Apple, Samsung, Microsoft no one else is making money in the handset business. Tablet business is only Apple and Samsung. Are you really saying that Blackberry belongs with the lowest end phones in the store? Ikes, are you a phone salesman at BestBuy?

    Point #6
    Premium / High-end. Agreed

    Point #7
    Sorry it's a great analysis, doesn't have to be Mercedes. Let's keep it models of Hyundai.

    Point #8
    Blackberry too uses high end plastic, stainless steel and glass weaved back covers. It actually has mass and feels like value. If you are talking spec's again, does it have the capacity to do what it was designed to do, yes. Why pack it with components that add no benefit?

    Point #9
    Why are you using Blackberry?
    What phone are you using?
    Is passport something that you intend on getting?
    I don't see the value in you using a Blackberry (app eco system and all). Blackberry is not for everyone, it's be beauty of choices. I see a tremendous value in Blackberry. The increase in productivity over iOS and android is huge to me (yes I have used both). I don't see how having apps makes you more productive. All critical apps for business are integrated into the OS, the way it should be.
    09-03-14 02:17 PM
  22. Chelmsford's Avatar
    This won't be a cheapy device. I think BlackBerry understands how to market this. So do you

    Powered by BlackBerry Z30
    09-03-14 02:19 PM
  23. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    I don't know who prices this, but I think depending on the market, specifically Indonesia it will be priced aggressively because people already like BlackBerry. Unfortunately we're in a global economy and news fly instantly, so there's no way to isolate prices. So I'm guessing they will release in hot markets first and while it devaluates they will start releasing in other markets at different prices.
    Bit then again, I'm not an expert on the subject
    The phone not built for consumers. It is a vertical market phone. Best to buy the Z3. I hear it is priced great for the value
    09-03-14 02:26 PM
  24. Hello Blackberry World's Avatar
    I agree with MarsupilamiX.

    The analogy with high-end car manufacturers is grossly flawed.
    1. Mercedes has a highly respected brand.
    2. Mercedes' are universal status symbols
    3. People do not have fears (real or imagined) about Mercedes going out of business in the near future.
    4. Mercedes has a well established history of selling cars at a premium and people actually buying them.
    Let's compare to BlackBerry :
    1. Blackberry's brand is routinely laughed at, dismissed, and is the constant bu tt of jokes on even respected tech publications. BlackBerry is considered irrelevant by the tech press and majority of average users.
    2. BlackBerry is no longer a status symbol. Having a blackberry can make one the bu tt of jokes about being behind the times. This is exactly the OPPOSITE of a status symbol.
    3. Many average people and tech publications still believe BlackBerry is on the verge of bankruptcy or has already gone out of business. Point of sale staff even routinely pass this misinformation on to consumers that would otherwise give BB10 a chance.
    4. BlackBerry has NO history of selling premium priced BB10 phones and being successful at it. EVERY SINGLE TIME they have done this, the results have been completely disastrous.
    Given this, I suggest we permanently put the "high end car" analogy to rest. It is a deeply flawed analogy.
    Posted via CB10
    1-4 - Let's use Hyundai, why build a family of cars?
    BB comparisons
    1. So if my customers laugh at the products I sell them I should give them a discount or seek the customers who see the value in what I am selling? Tech press does not think that Blackberry is irrelevant. Tech press who improperly review BB10 and Blackberry see Blackberry as irrelevant. Big difference
    2. Stop hanging out on the playground. Stop and actually show them the device and how great the OS is
    3. Who cares, nothing to do with dropping pricing. Blackberry needs to educate the sale force and try different avenues to market
    4. Bold 9900 fans out there? Again what makes a phone premium? Materials, spec's? What does a phone have in it and is it appropriate for the task it needs to do?
    09-03-14 02:41 PM
  25. collinc93's Avatar
    This is precisely why I am of an opinion that BlackBerry isn't bringing anything to the table with the Passport other than a nice device. They have the equivalent of a big fat zero as far as an ecosystem is concerned. For a modern smartphone, this is unacceptable. Beyond being a communications machine (mind you for only those services that are natively supported on a BlackBerry), the "smartphone" isn't so smart, as it really does nothing else. It does not integrate with any services, it is not supported, and for all intents and purposes is only marginally more useful than a feature phone. You are precisely right about Apple and their keynote. They focus on "our iPhone integrates with X" and "the iPhone will help you do Y through its new blah, blah". They are not selling you the iPhone, they are selling you the experience and what it can do as part of an entire ecosystem.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm excited about the Passport, and I'm a big fan of BlackBerry, however, they aren't offering any value. The whole "security" premise is old and dry. Consumers and most organizations have already voted on security - they don't care about it until something really bad happens, and even then, a good PR department is often cheaper. What would offer value is top-notch Android integration with BlackBerry security and enterprise prowess. That would sell. Unfortunately, they can't bring that to the table either as the current Android integration is at best "average".

    A year and a half later and BlackBerry (to me at least) looks more deflated and defeated than it did at the start of 2013. I do hope I'm wrong.
    ...what does all this have to do with the price of the Passport? Nothing...just another one of those BlackBerry is crap post....we get it, kinda a bit tired of it now...
    09-03-14 03:28 PM
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