07-11-14 08:41 AM
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  1. app_Developer's Avatar
    What about those of us who agree with both sides? :P
    That's me. I can see how people are justifying the 3-row decision, and I can see myself accepting it when I buy one.

    BUT, boy would I be more excited about this device if they just found a way to include one more row of real keys.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    07-09-14 06:26 PM
  2. dejanh's Avatar
    I just came here to put the comment number 500

    Posted via CB10
    Peanuts, I have a higher number than your 500. Beat that!

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    07-09-14 07:18 PM
  3. danfrancisco's Avatar
    Sorry if this has been addressed already in the thread, but how will the Passport keyboard work for shortcuts in the CB10 app? For example, to refresh threads you simply hit Alt+R simultaneously. Is this a use case where the virtual and physical keyboard would be used jointly?


    I can't wait to see an actual video demo of the Passport keyboard in action! So excited for this device! I don't even care that BlackBerry might be flipping the script on his with this new three-row keyboard. Innovation is fun!

    Posted via CB10
    07-09-14 07:33 PM
  4. dejanh's Avatar
    Sorry if this has been addressed already in the thread, but how will the Passport keyboard work for shortcuts in the CB10 app? For example, to refresh threads you simply hit Alt+R simultaneously. Is this a use case where the virtual and physical keyboard would be used jointly?


    I can't wait to see an actual video demo of the Passport keyboard in action! So excited for this device! I don't even care that BlackBerry might be flipping the script on his with this new three-row keyboard. Innovation is fun!

    Posted via CB10
    Oh you're about to get an earful now. How dare you mention innovation or that you are looking forward to the Passport!

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    07-09-14 07:47 PM
  5. calivol's Avatar
    Peanuts, I have a higher number than your 500. Beat that!

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    You have a higher number so that's obviously better! Wait, the other post was first with the idea so that would be more innovative. However, other people do this "first" business all the time so they were really the inventors. You just changed it a bit and called it new. Of course, it was definitely unique if not innovative and I like things that are unique. I realize that some people don't and are more resistant to change regardless of the potential benefits. Now I'm lost and forgot why I posted. Regardless I now have the larger number and that's obviously better. Or is it? :/

    Posted via CB10
    dejanh and gokulesh like this.
    07-10-14 12:45 AM
  6. blueberrymerry's Avatar
    I really hope BB listen to potential buyers instead of sitting back, thinking everything's peachy, and then having a Z10-style write-down. The keyboard doesn't look like it's aimed at productivity, it's just aimed at looking good. It's so much faster to press Alt-whatever to get numbers than to press a key on the VKB, wait for the numbers to show up and reduce the content area, then pick out the numbers you want. You'd have to do this every single time you wanted to enter a number. How is that productive?
    MarsupilamiX and II ARROWS like this.
    07-10-14 01:10 AM
  7. dejanh's Avatar
    You have a higher number so that's obviously better! Wait, the other post was first with the idea so that would be more innovative. However, other people do this "first" business all the time so they were really the inventors. You just changed it a bit and called it new. Of course, it was definitely unique if not innovative and I like things that are unique. I realize that some people don't and are more resistant to change regardless of the potential benefits. Now I'm lost and forgot why I posted. Regardless I now have the larger number and that's obviously better. Or is it? :/

    Posted via CB10
    Look, I'm telling you that is not only new, it's innovative. Why compete for "first" when you have so many other choices available? Besides, I hate being boxed into an idea. Maybe you don't understand what innovation means! So much for your higher number... Pfft!

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    calivol likes this.
    07-10-14 01:21 AM
  8. Raestloz's Avatar
    All is needed is to print more characters on keys and then no more virtual keyboard since we don't need to type on the screen.

    Posted via CB10
    Can you tell me what good would it do for Arabic and Japanese input?

    Z10 STL100-1/10.2.1.3175
    07-10-14 01:50 AM
  9. CeCoQ's Avatar
    Can you tell me what good would it do for Arabic and Japanese input?

    Z10 STL100-1/10.2.1.3175
    How was it before on the 9900 devices? The same way.

    This is the way BlackBerry can suppress the virtual keyboard? Why take screen space if there is a solution?

    You see the actual keyboard on the Passport?

    OK, keep that, now the first and second virtual keyboard can be printed on the same (corresponding keys), in green and blue respectively for example.

    Now when you type swipe down once (you get a blue symbol on the screen(maybe top right of the screen)) and now you are typing characters printed blue on keys, and swipe down another time (you get a green symbols to indicate you will be typing green keys) and now you are typing the charters printed green on keys.

    Swipe up would bring you to previous selection layout.

    Passport is lucky enough to have its design make it have large keys, so why not just print all characters on those keys?



    We don't need the virtual keyboard taking screen space. As all it does is actually showing you characters mapped to the physical keyboard. Characters that could have been printed.

    People are saying No. We want virtual keyboard to know the position of the keys (as we don't want to remove our fingers from the keyboard). But on a regular PC keyboard we don't need to have windows virtual keyboard to see where are the key are positioned.

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 06:48 AM
  10. calivol's Avatar
    Look, I'm telling you that is not only new, it's innovative. Why compete for "first" when you have so many other choices available? Besides, I hate being boxed into an idea. Maybe you don't understand what innovation means! So much for your higher number... Pfft!

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    Lol

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 08:30 AM
  11. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    That's me. I can see how people are justifying the 3-row decision, and I can see myself accepting it when I buy one.

    BUT, boy would I be more excited about this device if they just found a way to include one more row of real keys.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Then I am probably more in the middle?

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 08:46 AM
  12. 018125's Avatar
    Then I am probably more in the middle?

    Posted via CB10
    You just crazy

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 08:47 AM
  13. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You just crazy

    Posted via CB10
    If it's crazy to insist on using the correct definition of a word, then I'll gladly be labelled that

    Can you tell me what good would it do for Arabic and Japanese input?

    Z10 STL100-1/10.2.1.3175
    No idea for Japanese as I have no idea how they type.
    What's the problem for Arabic though?
    They have a standardised alpahabet, that changes the shape of the letters used, depending on their positioning in the word.
    That's something the software should be able to handle for quite some time now...

    For the standard punctuation, and frequently used special characters, the advantage of a physical alt key with printed symbols on the keyboard is self explanatory.
    No VKB, no delay while typing thus creating a better typing flow and more screen real-estate when editing docs/text.

    But hey, now I have a question for you too!
    What's the advantage of the Passport's current implementation?

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 08:53 AM
  14. Tim Heard's Avatar
    Much like political discussions, or discussions of the economy, in which subject matter "expert" select facts that support their views, you've found a definition that conveniently supports your view. Needless to say, you can go online to a number of other reputable dictionary sites and find good definitions which, if selected, could be used to assert that the Passport is indeed innovative.

    So, this portion of the discussion is pretty much back at the "I know you are, but what am I?" impasse, with you stating "It still is just a keyboard and a touchscreen. How is that innovative?" and others saying "You're being intentionally obtuse. The keyboard is being used in a way that one has never been used before. That's a perfect example of innovation."

    I don't think this discussion has the potential to accomplish anything productive. Both sides have base assumptions that can't be reconciled.

    Let's look at the definition of innovation, and see if your example qualifies.

    "Innovation is about finding a better way of doing something.[1] Innovation can be viewed as the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, in-articulated needs, or existing market needs.[2] This is accomplished through more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are readily available to markets, governments and society. The term innovation can be defined as something original and, as a consequence, new, that "breaks into" the market or society. A definition consistent with these aspects would be the following: "An innovation is something original, new, and important in whatever field that breaks in to a market or society".[3]

    While something novel is often described as an innovation, in economics, management science, and other fields of practice and analysis it is generally considered a process that brings together various novel ideas in a way that they have an impact on society.

    Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a better and, as a result, novel idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself.

    Innovation differs from improvement in that innovation refers to the notion of doing something different rather than doing the same thing better."
    Innovation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It qualifies perfectly for the conclusion of the first paragraph.
    "An innovation is something original, new, and important in whatever field that breaks in to a market or society"
    ^
    Important, new, changed the market / society.

    I am probably not old enough to know, if our new lid implies the following and how it changed things back then:
    "a process that brings together various novel ideas in a way that they have an impact on society."
    But I have the feeling that it might count.

    The third paragraph gets tricky.
    Our flat lid is obviously an invention, if it wasn't existant before. This is where my lacking knowledge is a problem. If however, that flat lid was used before already, then it is no invention.
    It definitely was a novel and better way to handle shampoo though.

    Now onto the last paragraph...
    That's the most tricky one for that flat lid.
    Is the flat lid different enough from those before it, to not only be considered an improvement?
    I'd say no. The flat lid, is still just a lid.

    To deserve the innovation tag, a product or process, has to fulfil ALL of those requirements posted in the definition above, and the lid isn't compliant with one of them (improvement/innovation).

    And the Passport as a whole struggles with far more than the last point.

    Edit:
    Yes, this seems to be about semantics.
    If someone uses the word innovative, combined with BlackBerry Passport, he has to prove that the Passport actually qualifies.
    (unless he works in a marketing department. They would try to sell you a horse as being innovative)

    Posted via CB10
    Timbosaurus likes this.
    07-10-14 09:15 AM
  15. dejanh's Avatar
    Much like political discussions, or discussions of the economy, in which subject matter "expert" select facts that support their views, you've found a definition that conveniently supports your view. Needless to say, you can go online to a number of other reputable dictionary sites and find good definitions which, if selected, could be used to assert that the Passport is indeed innovative.

    So, this portion of the discussion is pretty much back at the "I know you are, but what am I?" impasse, with you stating "It still is just a keyboard and a touchscreen. How is that innovative?" and others saying "You're being intentionally obtuse. The keyboard is being used in a way that one has never been used before. That's a perfect example of innovation."

    I don't think this discussion has the potential to accomplish anything productive. Both sides have base assumptions that can't be reconciled.
    Here we go again with reason and rational thinking. Why did you do it? Why?!!!

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    07-10-14 10:48 AM
  16. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Much like political discussions, or discussions of the economy, in which subject matter "expert" select facts that support their views, you've found a definition that conveniently supports your view. Needless to say, you can go online to a number of other reputable dictionary sites and find good definitions which, if selected, could be used to assert that the Passport is indeed innovative.
    There is no selection bias considering the definition of innovation.
    Wikipedia defines it, as it should be defined.
    As you define it on every University I have ever been to and in every job I took until now.
    The definition of innovation is not up to discussion (except for marketing departments. As I said, they try to sell you a horse as being innovative)

    You will also see that there a numerous essays about the difference between invention and innovation.
    Simply because most people don't understand it.

    The definition of innovation is not up to discussion.

    So, this portion of the discussion is pretty much back at the "I know you are, but what am I?" impasse, with you stating "It still is just a keyboard and a touchscreen. How is that innovative?" and others saying "You're being intentionally obtuse. The keyboard is being used in a way that one has never been used before. That's a perfect example of innovation."
    Every touchscreen phone, has a keyboard, that is also a trackpad.
    The BlackBerry keyboard on the Passport is just the physical embodiment of the idea.
    The idea itself, has already been used.

    It's a novelty on a physical keyboard though.
    Which means that it could become an innovation.
    The keyboard has to fulfil an existing market need though (doubtful as of now, could be that BlackBerry identified a need before the consumer did it though), has to break into society and must be relevant.

    If that is the case, I'll make a thread on CB myself, declaring the Keyboard/Passport as innovative.
    Until then, it's just an invention, that may or may not be an improvement.


    I don't think this discussion has the potential to accomplish anything productive. Both sides have base assumptions that can't be reconciled.
    It has the potential to do it.
    It all depends on, if people are willing to learn the definition of innovation though.

    It's new, yes.
    It's different, obviously.
    If it's an innovation, is yet to be seen.

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 11:30 AM
  17. 018125's Avatar
    Let's change subject.

    What's the definition of batsh!t crazy?

    Posted via CB10
    blueberrymerry likes this.
    07-10-14 11:51 AM
  18. Tim Heard's Avatar
    And there you have it. I believe you have helped to make my point.
    You are not going to change your view, regardless of any other discussions or definitions by authoritative sources that present a different definition of innovation, so there's really no point in carrying on a discussion of this particular point any further.
    [And folks on the other side of the discussion are equally entrenched in their view that the phone *is* innovative.]

    There is no selection bias considering the definition of innovation.
    Wikipedia defines it, as it should be defined.
    As you define it on every University I have ever been to and in every job I took until now.
    The definition of innovation is not up to discussion (except for marketing departments. As I said, they try to sell you a horse as being innovative)

    You will also see that there a numerous essays about the difference between invention and innovation.
    Simply because most people don't understand it.

    The definition of innovation is not up to discussion.
    Last edited by Tim Heard; 07-10-14 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Added comment to reflect that both sides of the discussion are incapable of accepting the other's view.
    07-10-14 11:55 AM
  19. toieboie's Avatar
    I think the on screen buttons are more of refreshing for starters, once u get used to it, you will automatically swipe down on the keyboard for symbols and hit the right key on the keyboard and continue typing without even realizing that 1/3 of your screen just went away and cane back, a person typing on a BlackBerry is just to quick to notice such blinks on the screen.

    Aftab
    07-10-14 11:58 AM
  20. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    And there you have it. I believe you have helped to make my point.
    You are not going to change your view, regardless of any other discussions or definitions by authoritative sources that present a different definition of innovation, so there's really no point in carrying on a discussion of this particular point any further.
    [And folks on the other side of the discussion are equally entrenched in their view that the phone *is* innovative.]
    It depends on how you define change my PoV.
    If you mean that, I will never acknowledge the Passport / keyboard to be innovative then this is wrong.

    If you mean that I won't change the definition of innovation, then you are correct.

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 12:43 PM
  21. 018125's Avatar
    It depends on how you define change my PoV.
    If you mean that, I will never acknowledge the Passport / keyboard to be innovative then this is wrong.

    If you mean that I won't change the definition of innovation, then you are correct.

    Posted via CB10
    Blah blah blah

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 12:55 PM
  22. dejanh's Avatar
    Let's change subject.

    What's the definition of batsh!t crazy?

    Posted via CB10
    I'm not sure but I did always wonder where that expression came from? Does batsh!t make one go crazy?
    07-10-14 01:04 PM
  23. ZeroBarrier's Avatar
    I think the on screen buttons are more of refreshing for starters, once u get used to it, you will automatically swipe down on the keyboard for symbols and hit the right key on the keyboard and continue typing without even realizing that 1/3 of your screen just went away and cane back, a person typing on a BlackBerry is just to quick to notice such blinks on the screen.

    Aftab
    All fine and dandy, until you have to type an entire string f numbers. Then you either have t bring up the virtual keyboard for each number. Or the virtual keyboard is designed to be brought up with a gesture/screen tap and is persistent until another gesture/screen tap hides it. Either way, this is just ridiculously stupid. It is 100 times more efficient, easier, faster and intuitive to long press the alt key and click on the corresponding hardware keys that have the numbers printed right on the keys.

    There's absolutely no need to invoke a virtual keyboard at all for numbers and commonly used symbols. The only reason the Q10/Q5 invoke a virtual keyboard is for extended symbols and accented letters which are rarely used.

    Posted via CB10
    blueberrymerry likes this.
    07-10-14 01:09 PM
  24. dejanh's Avatar
    All fine and dandy, until you have to type an entire string f numbers. Then you either have t bring up the virtual keyboard for each number. Or the virtual keyboard is designed to be brought up with a gesture/screen tap and is persistent until another gesture/screen tap hides it. Either way, this is just ridiculously stupid. It is 100 times more efficient, easier, faster and intuitive to long press the alt key and click on the corresponding hardware keys that have the numbers printed right on the keys.

    There's absolutely no need to invoke a virtual keyboard at all for numbers and commonly used symbols. The only reason the Q10/Q5 invoke a virtual keyboard is for extended symbols and accented letters which are rarely used.

    Posted via CB10
    It's even more efficient to lock number input and just type numbers.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    07-10-14 02:46 PM
  25. ZeroBarrier's Avatar
    It's even more efficient to lock number input and just type numbers.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    You obviously didn't understand my post, but that's fine. I've already noticed that you'll ignore the glaring shortcomings of the Passport and defend it tooth and nail all the while trying to spin any post that constructively argues and points out these shortcomings.

    Posted via CB10
    07-10-14 03:02 PM
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