12-21-17 07:40 PM
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  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Again, good point, that's all I can say.


    Posted via CB10
    Didn't mean to sound like I'm making fun of you. It was merely a reference to real glory days of BlackBerry.. :-/
    12-11-17 06:06 PM
  2. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    i know this thread is entirely pointless, i just wish the world valued products over profits. it does not. perhaps in a parallel universe.

    Posted via CBX
    Sure it values products, WITH profits. Even in a barter system, bread and water are traded at minimum for TIME..
    12-11-17 06:09 PM
  3. wingnut666's Avatar
    But how do you make things without positive earnings? How do you pay your employees? Your rent? Your hydro?

    How do you pay back your investors and the banks when you have no positive earnings? Money is expensive to get, so if you offer no returns to your potential investors, why would they give you any to start your business?

    Are you advocating some kind of state-run economy that doesn't value innovation? Hasn't worked too well for North Korea.

    Capitalism sucks, but is by far the best system we have.
    efficiency. innovation. avoiding greedy investors like kind found on dragons den/shark tank.

    a ten percent return on an investment is quite acceptable.
    a tenfold return is exorbitant and puts unnecessary pressure on the product.

    Posted via CBX
    12-11-17 06:11 PM
  4. leeiling's Avatar
    Didn't mean to sound like I'm making fun of you. It was merely a reference to real glory days of BlackBerry.. :-/
    I am not offended. No need to worry. This is simply exchange of opinion.

    If they think switching their focus to software business can bring the company back alive, that is OK with me. I have always believed it is a purely business decision, and based on the same reason, I am switching to iOS for the secondary device.
    I still use BB 10 as my main device, but I guess the company doesn't care.

    Posted via CB10
    12-11-17 06:14 PM
  5. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    so you would support a fender that ceases to make guitars. so long as they put money in your pocket. i do own some stocks but i have different criteria. i try to own companies that do things i like, and conduct themselves responsibly too.

    Posted via CBX
    If Fender's only choice was go bankrupt or make fantastic wooden music stands instead of guitars, what would you prefer they do?

    BlackBerry was always in the business of securing electronic business communications. They still are. They just don't make the particular instrument (phones) that you enjoyed buying.

    Even if they had WANTED to keep making phones (and by most accounts they did, including John Chen), they couldn't have because, when a company runs out of money to pay suppliers and employees, it's no longer an option to conduct business.

    Unless math works differently where you live, BlackBerry couldn't have survived as a going concern another year in hardware.
    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-11-17 06:16 PM
  6. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I am not offended. No need to worry. This is simply exchange of opinion.

    If they think switching their focus to software business can bring the company back alive, that is OK with me. I have always believed it is a purely business decision, and based on the same reason, I am switching to iOS for the secondary device.
    I still use BB 10 as my main device, but I guess the company doesn't care.

    Posted via CB10
    I think they cared a lot. They firmly believed that BB10 and their handsets were great products, and were proud of them, but the public wanted mainstream apps. In business, even having the best product doesn't ever guarantee success. And BlackBerry struggled to have the featured that the public wanted.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-11-17 06:20 PM
  7. wingnut666's Avatar
    "the public gets what they deserve, not what they demand. unless we all decide to be a business not a band."

    Posted via CBX
    Elephant_Canyon likes this.
    12-11-17 06:31 PM
  8. panopticon's Avatar
    i know this thread is entirely pointless, i just wish the world valued products over profits. it does not. perhaps in a parallel universe.

    Posted via CBX
    Of course, CBS bought Fender and proceeded to bleed the brand by mass producing in Mexico, Japan, Korea, and Indonesia. Slapping Fender logos on inferior products made with cheap woods and imitation electronics. Nah, that doesn't sound familiar at all eh? Ha ha. You nailed it!
    12-11-17 06:33 PM
  9. krazyatom's Avatar
    RIP Blackberry. We will always remember you!
    12-11-17 06:53 PM
  10. johnny_bravo72's Avatar
    RIP BB10. We will always remember you!
    Fixed.
    Happy Holidays! 🎅
    12-11-17 07:05 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    Of course, CBS bought Fender and proceeded to bleed the brand by mass producing in Mexico, Japan, Korea, and Indonesia. Slapping Fender logos on inferior products made with cheap woods and imitation electronics. Nah, that doesn't sound familiar at all eh? Ha ha. You nailed it!
    Except they didn't with TCL. The Motion and KEYᵒⁿᵉ are exceptionally well constructed.
    12-11-17 08:34 PM
  12. panopticon's Avatar
    Except they didn't with TCL. The Motion and KEYᵒⁿᵉ are exceptionally well constructed.
    You mean aside screens falling off, questionable reception, shaky simcard trays, uneven pkb illumination, huge chins...
    12-11-17 08:48 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    You mean aside screens falling off, questionable reception, shaky simcard trays, uneven pkb illumination, huge chins...
    Apart from that initial faulty batch regarding adhesive, I would put their build quality up against anything out there today. Certainly as good as the Passport.

    You can go to any forum, for any device, and handpick issues.
    12-11-17 08:51 PM
  14. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Of course, CBS bought Fender and proceeded to bleed the brand by mass producing in Mexico, Japan, Korea, and Indonesia. Slapping Fender logos on inferior products made with cheap woods and imitation electronics. Nah, that doesn't sound familiar at all eh? Ha ha. You nailed it!
    And the market punished them for those decisions. Fender did lousy financially for a long time, until they finally started offering some higher-quality options for those willing to pay for them. Of course, they still offer the entry-level options for those wanting to pay an entry-level price, but there's nothing wrong with that either.
    12-11-17 09:19 PM
  15. panopticon's Avatar
    Apart from that initial faulty batch regarding adhesive, I would put their build quality up against anything out there today. Certainly as good as the Passport.

    You can go to any forum, for any device, and handpick issues.
    The analogy was a Fender guitar to BlackBerry. It's a valid comparison. CBS bought the company and sold cheap knock-offs at elevated prices to exploit the brand. Not that what is happening with BlackBerry licensing is quite as drastic, but the analogy holds nonetheless. Anyone who thinks TCL is not looking to monetize the BlackBerry name by pushing budget specs at a somewhat inflated price point is simply delusional. I'm not saying the quality is all that bad, don't get me wrong. But we can all tell and appreciate there is a difference between pre and post TCL BlackBerry devices.
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    12-11-17 09:24 PM
  16. panopticon's Avatar
    And the market punished them for those decisions. Fender did lousy financially for a long time, until they finally started offering some higher-quality options for those willing to pay for them. Of course, they still offer the entry-level options for those wanting to pay an entry-level price, but there's nothing wrong with that either.
    Nothing wrong with stupidity, I guess. Lol. Just go ask the people that pay tens of thousands of dollars for a pre-CBS Fender and then talk to me about what a great business decision it was to go bottom end with the Fender namesake.
    12-11-17 09:28 PM
  17. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    BB10 was essentially a play to stop the bleeding in enterprise and regain lost ground against Apple and Samsung. BlackBerry's goal post enterprise focus for BB10 was to sell around 10 million units a year, I wouldn't consider that low volume for an OEM like BlackBerry.
    Sorry, but that's not the case. 10M units/year was the minimum number of BB10 phones required to break even - and no one invests billions of dollars in a project over several years with thousands of employees to break even. The truth is that Mike believed he would be able to sell 40M or more phones per year - which made his plan viable, as with that volume, the high costs of supporting an entire platform could be spread across enough devices that BB could be competitive and still make a decent profit. And, had that volume been realized, he'd have been right. But BB10's best year (calendar Q213-Q114) only sold something like 4.7M devices (6M and change total when BBOS devices were included). That's an epic miss, and why BB put themselves up for sale only 2 quarters after release - they'd pushed "all in" and got crushed, and they needed big help just to survive.
    12-11-17 09:29 PM
  18. conite's Avatar
    The analogy was a Fender guitar to BlackBerry. It's a valid comparison. CBS bought the company and sold cheap knock-offs at elevated prices to exploit the brand. Not that what is happening with BlackBerry licensing is quite as drastic, but the analogy holds nonetheless. Anyone who thinks TCL is not looking to monetize the BlackBerry name by pushing budget specs at a somewhat inflated price point is simply delusional. I'm not saying the quality is all that bad, don't get me wrong. But we can all tell and appreciate there is a difference between pre and post TCL BlackBerry devices.
    The DTEKs were cheaper devices made from standard reference parts, but not the Motion or KEYᵒⁿᵉ - completely different animals.

    As far as price, KEYᵒⁿᵉ launched at the same price as the Passport SE ($599), but is now $449. I don't see that as delusional.

    The notion that TCL is looking to gouge current customers at the expense of long term profitability is absurd.
    12-11-17 09:30 PM
  19. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Nothing wrong with stupidity, I guess. Lol. Just go ask the people that pay tens of thousands of dollars for a pre-CBS Fender and then talk to me about what a great business decision it was to go bottom end with the Fender namesake.
    Maybe you should read some of the interviews Leo has given about the pressures he faced at that time. The competition had gotten fierce, and he was having supply problems and cash-flow problems. People didn't want to pay more for his products at the time (and had lots of alternatives to choose from), but he'd have had to charge more to keep things going the way they'd been going.

    It's a completely different perspective when YOU are staring down an impossible situation and the buck stops with you.
    12-11-17 09:34 PM
  20. panopticon's Avatar
    The DTEKs were cheaper devices made from standard reference parts, but not the Motion or KEYᵒⁿᵉ - completely different animals.

    As far as price, KEYᵒⁿᵉ launched at the same price as the Passport SE ($599), but is now $449. I don't see that as delusional.

    The notion that TCL is looking to gouge current customers at the expense of long term profitability is absurd.
    You can't compare prices points for devices released years apart from one another. Lol.

    Passport was premium hardware at the time. So was the PRIV. Those were BlackBerry through and through. The DTEKs as you point out are just re-branded Idols, and it's commonly accepted the TCL KEYone and the Motion are both overpriced relative to their specs.

    You can candy coat it all you want, but let's face it...licensing generally tends to have a negative impact on quality, as the Fender guitar example correctly points out.
    12-11-17 09:41 PM
  21. panopticon's Avatar
    Maybe you should read some of the interviews Leo has given about the pressures he faced at that time. The competition had gotten fierce, and he was having supply problems and cash-flow problems. People didn't want to pay more for his products at the time (and had lots of alternatives to choose from), but he'd have had to charge more to keep things going the way they'd been going.

    It's a completely different perspective when YOU are staring down an impossible situation and the buck stops with you.
    He did what he had to do. Everyone has to retire sooner or later. Whether the company is more profitable now, or more importantly whether it makes better guitars than it did 50 years ago...thats an entirely different question.
    12-11-17 09:48 PM
  22. conite's Avatar
    it's commonly accepted the TCL KEYone and the Motion are both overpriced relative to their specs.

    You can candy coat it all you want, but let's face it...licensing generally tends to have a negative impact on quality, as the Fender guitar example correctly points out.
    I absolutely disagree on both counts.

    KEYᵒⁿᵉ is in no way overpriced. People who say that, don't place value on what it offers, so even $200 would be overpriced.

    I've owned almost every BlackBerry ever built, and many other devices too - including iPhone and Nexus. My 6 month old KEYᵒⁿᵉ is as well-built (or better) than anything I've ever used. Everything fits perfectly together without gaps, notches, or seams. Finish is consistent, and keyboard is simply the best to date.
    12-11-17 09:50 PM
  23. panopticon's Avatar
    I absolutely disagree on both counts.

    KEYᵒⁿᵉ is in no way overpriced. People who say that, don't place value on what it offers, so even $200 would be overpriced.

    I've owned almost every BlackBerry ever built, and many other devices too - including iPhone and Nexus. My 6 month old KEYᵒⁿᵉ is as well-built (or better) than anything I've ever used.
    As I expected you to, lol. Not surprised you also edited out the part about the Passport and the PRIV, BlackBerry's last two in-house devices, having premium hardware whereas both TCL licensed devices are decidedly middle-of-the-road offerings.
    12-11-17 09:54 PM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar
    efficiency. innovation. avoiding greedy investors like kind found on dragons den/shark tank.

    a ten percent return on an investment is quite acceptable.
    a tenfold return is exorbitant and puts unnecessary pressure on the product.

    Posted via CBX
    If BB had been able to sustain 10% return for shareholders with their handset business and BB10, they would still be in that business.

    Instead they were returning negative returns. Massively negative. That was the problem.
    12-11-17 09:57 PM
  25. conite's Avatar
    As I expected you to, lol. Not surprised you also edited out the part about the Passport and the PRIV, BlackBerry's last two in-house devices, having premium hardware whereas both TCL licensed devices are decidely middle of the road offerings.
    The SoC is a design CHOICE. The KEYᵒⁿᵉ could have been given an 835 and another 1GB of memory and sold for the price of the Priv, but that adds very little value, and forces compromises in other areas - like battery life.
    12-11-17 10:01 PM
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