[BoldtotheMax]

Honestly I can see where Investors would be upset as they are losing money right now, but don't mean we won't rise up and be a player again. Just a rough patch right now. Happens a lot with big players and happened with Apple in the day and I am sure it will one day with Android. Apple is at its Peak and Android will be soon...just wait and see.

Now me, I don't hold weight in stocks, so that isn't a deal for me. I don't care if RIM isn't 1st or whatever place. As long as my phones work and do what I need them to do, then I am a happy customer. I have used them all and still happiest with my RIM products.

Many people still feel that way, no matter what you investors think.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Economist101]

Honestly I can see where Investors would be upset as they are losing money right now, but don't mean we won't rise up and be a player again. Just a rough patch right now. Happens a lot with big players and happened with Apple in the day and I am sure it will one day with Android. Apple is at its Peak and Android will be soon...just wait and see.

Since you can't buy shares in "Android," I'm not sure it belongs in a discussion about investors, money and "peaks."

[belfastdispatcher]

I see it the exact opposite way. With carriers charging a premium for data, why wouldn't one get the phone that does more. If you notice, the rumoured pricing for Verizon Wireless didn't exactly have plans for using less data. Not to mention these other phones do wi-fi also. Yes, some blackberry devices do wi-fi also, but then that just puts them back behind the other guys not on equal footing and certainly not ahead. The reason it uses less data is also one of the reasons folks are frustrated with the browsing experience.

They need to start accepting the shift and working towards joining that shift. As I mentioned before, I hope the holdup for QNX phones is NOT trying to do what BB OS does today, but trying to do what people demand of it tomorrow. I read an article about why e-mail isn't on the Playbook and it mentions BES servers not being able to handle multiple devices for a user. I have an odd feeling their solution will not be that great unless the blow up what they know today and completely revamp the e-mail experience. Maybe BES becomes for security, but not a requirement.

That's Verizon's way, Vodafone UK has already gone down to 500mb a while ago and I I go 1kb over 500mb I get charged again for another 500. I expect things to get worse in the future.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[belfastdispatcher]

I do understand your point, but I think folks would be driven more to use wi-fi than concern themselves with the fact Blackberry uses less data (if they even know this). Now, bb plans being priced less they would pay attention to (as in these emerging markets everyone laughs about). Unfortunately people see the upfront cost and info and not the backend. Most people don't know Blackberry uses less data nor will they try to know.

I was thinking more along the lines of a salesman dropping this line "but if you get a blackberry the data plan will last you twice or three times as long due to blackberry compression".

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[_StephenBB81]

The circumstances of the two companies (Apple then vs RIM now) aren't remotely similar. For one, RIM isn't as bad off now as Apple was then. Not even close. Two, RIM doesn't have its founder riding back in to save it; unfortunately, RIM's founder has been present throughout their struggles.

LOL!! I loved this

[jav3lin]

I really hope RIM fails and just starts from scratch. This is coming from a loyal BB user. Mike Lazaridis needs to get the eff out of dodge and someone not so uptight and not in a suit needs to take over. They need a whole new image. Lets face it....The Black Eyed Peas suck. The whole enterprise thing isn't working for them anymore. More and more companys are implementing other devices now.

And hopefully with RIM gone...Crackberry Kevin and Crackberry can finally fall into oblivion.

Yes...I said it...KEVIN IS A ******

[rollingrock1988]

I really hope RIM fails and just starts from scratch. This is coming from a loyal BB user. Mike Lazaridis needs to get the eff out of dodge and someone not so uptight and not in a suit needs to take over. They need a whole new image. Lets face it....The Black Eyed Peas suck. The whole enterprise thing isn't working for them anymore. More and more companys are implementing other devices now.

And hopefully with RIM gone...Crackberry Kevin and Crackberry can finally fall into oblivion.

Yes...I said it...KEVIN IS A ******

The latter part about Kevin is a little harsh, don't you think?

In terms of what you said, I don't want them to fail I just want them to restructure and move forward in the fast paced technology sector.

[dandbj13]

The bad news is that RIM will have to fail before they see the need to restructure. not only do they not see their fundamental problem, they do not believe they have a fundamental problem. They are applying bandaids to sucking chest wounds

[jav3lin]

The latter part about Kevin is a little harsh, don't you think?

In terms of what you said, I don't want them to fail I just want them to restructure and move forward in the fast paced technology sector.

ok ok...I agree...it was A LITTLE harsh...but I really don't like the guy. He comes off as an arrogant *****.

Anyways....as for RIM they need someone more hip and with the times. Not saying that Steve Jobs is hip cuz he wears wrangler jeans but he knows how to appeal to the mass market and NOT just the enterprise crowd. Security not so much an issue with the general public so it peaves me off when Crackberry users say the first thing BB have over any phone is security. Not everyone uses BB for work in a large corporation. Which leads me to my next point. BB are too associated with corporates. They need a more trendy phone and for god sakes revamp App World!! Don't they realize Apps sell???

[zingbats]

...the end is nigh

[rollingrock1988]

ok ok...I agree...it was A LITTLE harsh...but I really don't like the guy. He comes off as an arrogant *****.

Anyways....as for RIM they need someone more hip and with the times. Not saying that Steve Jobs is hip cuz he wears wrangler jeans but he knows how to appeal to the mass market and NOT just the enterprise crowd. Security not so much an issue with the general public so it peaves me off when Crackberry users say the first thing BB have over any phone is security. Not everyone uses BB for work in a large corporation. Which leads me to my next point. BB are too associated with corporates. They need a more trendy phone and for god sakes revamp App World!! Don't they realize Apps sell???

I can't comment. The two times we have addressed each other have been okay. One time he was a little brash but when I explained what I was saying, he sort of apologized. So I liked that.


Secondly, I agree with you. They haven't been able to advertise to consumers. Maybe that'll change?

I believe that security is an issue especially because of NFC and mobile wallets. In that sense RIM/BB has a leg up on the competition.

Finally, I think the perception that qwerty candy bar phones are for corporate users only is a misconception. All the companies market it that way. RIM should break that perception because people do love keyboards too. The phones themselves look attractive to me but I like the form factor (this is my first BB btw.)

I hate that the phones are marketed that way and it's such a pet peeve of mine. It drives me crazy. They ARE good for corporate use but guess what? I am not a corporate user. I love the keyboard for texting (and bbming but I am not going to open that can of worms.) and pretty much communicating in general. They need to talk that up.

BBs look sleek and if they change direction in the perception of their form factors, it will be a great thing for them.

I do have to say that RIM backed themselves into the corner of that perception and made the market embrace that perception. All the competitions' phones are marketed the same way, but that's because of RIM.

The palm centro was not marketed that way. It was marketed towards a younger crowd and it was good for communications. It worked and they sold a lot. I even bought it and loved it for that reason.

It's doable, they should do it but who knows what they are thinking these days?

[Shlooky]

As a Canadian, I want RIM to succeed, however I first want Lazaridis and Baldsilli to leave RIM immediately!! They may have brought innovation to the table 15 years ago, but not anymore, they are nothing but bloated beef sticks that need to be dumped now.

[belfastdispatcher]

ok ok...I agree...it was A LITTLE harsh...but I really don't like the guy. He comes off as an arrogant *****.

Anyways....as for RIM they need someone more hip and with the times. Not saying that Steve Jobs is hip cuz he wears wrangler jeans but he knows how to appeal to the mass market and NOT just the enterprise crowd. Security not so much an issue with the general public so it peaves me off when Crackberry users say the first thing BB have over any phone is security. Not everyone uses BB for work in a large corporation. Which leads me to my next point. BB are too associated with corporates. They need a more trendy phone and for god sakes revamp App World!! Don't they realize Apps sell???

Do you realise Appworld is second after Appstore at generating money? They'll never touch Apple but they're second best.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[jav3lin]

I can't comment. The two times we have addressed each other have been okay. One time he was a little brash but when I explained what I was saying, he sort of apologized. So I liked that.


Secondly, I agree with you. They haven't been able to advertise to consumers. Maybe that'll change?

I believe that security is an issue especially because of NFC and mobile wallets. In that sense RIM/BB has a leg up on the competition.

Finally, I think the perception that qwerty candy bar phones are for corporate users only is a misconception. All the companies market it that way. RIM should break that perception because people do love keyboards too. The phones themselves look attractive to me but I like the form factor (this is my first BB btw.)

I hate that the phones are marketed that way and it's such a pet peeve of mine. It drives me crazy. They ARE good for corporate use but guess what? I am not a corporate user. I love the keyboard for texting (and bbming but I am not going to open that can of worms.) and pretty much communicating in general. They need to talk that up.

BBs look sleek and if they change direction in the perception of their form factors, it will be a great thing for them.

I do have to say that RIM backed themselves into the corner of that perception and made the market embrace that perception. All the competitions' phones are marketed the same way, but that's because of RIM.

The palm centro was not marketed that way. It was marketed towards a younger crowd and it was good for communications. It worked and they sold a lot. I even bought it and loved it for that reason.

It's doable, they should do it but who knows what they are thinking these days?

I don't work for a corporation either...and I personally prefer the Blackberry because how fast I can pump out emails and text messages and...of course...BBM. But I can honestly say...once iMessage comes out I will be jumping ship to iPhone...BECAUSE...most of my friends and family have already jumped to iPhone so it makes sense as BBM was the way we kept in touch so iMessage will act the same way. I can see alot of people doing the same for that reason alone.

Plus...apps.

App world just plain sucks....overpriced...not a good selection AT ALL....and they look they were all made for a cellphone in the 90's! Now I know the new OS7 is supposed to provide better and smoother graphics and the new BB phones will be able to handle it....but guess what RIM...your kinda too late. If they had released the 9900 instead of the 9700 they would have been in a much better position they are in now.

Plus releasing handsets with MINOR MINOR upgrades every 4 months is NOT a way to win over consumers because the handset they just bought brand new is now obsolete 4 months later.

The OS is really really not eye candy at all. In a world where iPhones and Android OS rule with a really intuitive interface the BB OS is really outdated. Even WP7 looks nicer that BB OS. They really need to listen to the public instead of doing what they've done for the past 15 yrs. Time to evolve or get out with whatever dignity you have left RIM.

[lnichols]

ok ok...I agree...it was A LITTLE harsh...but I really don't like the guy. He comes off as an arrogant *****.

Anyways....as for RIM they need someone more hip and with the times. Not saying that Steve Jobs is hip cuz he wears wrangler jeans but he knows how to appeal to the mass market and NOT just the enterprise crowd. Security not so much an issue with the general public so it peaves me off when Crackberry users say the first thing BB have over any phone is security. Not everyone uses BB for work in a large corporation. Which leads me to my next point. BB are too associated with corporates. They need a more trendy phone and for god sakes revamp App World!! Don't they realize Apps sell???

RIM didn't start out as a consumer based gadget company, they started off buy selling secure, wireless communication devices, and that is still their core business. Consumers decided to start using them as consumer devices, but business and government is still their core business. I agree that they need to keep making the device more and more consumer friendly, but they can't put out a weak link, less-secure device and allow it to connect to the existing Blackberry secure infrastructure because it could be used to compromise the secure devices. Apple and Android were developed as consumer devices and are having issue getting the certifications needed to work in the corporate and government space that demand higher security. If security is not a concern of yours, or the company that you work, and you want features that an Apple or Android device can deliver then maybe you should be looking at Apple and Android. But just because you don't care about security, doesn't mean that it isn't a big deal to a good portion of RIM's core customers. Unfortunately it's kinda like politics, keep your base happy and try to slide to the center to get the undecideds. If they came out with a phone that could do everything the other phones could do, but wasn't secure and couldn't connect to BIS/BES, would they sell a lot of them?

[howarmat]

Do you realise Appworld is second after Appstore at generating money? They'll never touch Apple but they're second best.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

lol that is because android is tons of free or 99 cents. The ads are great for the android community in this respect. Charging more for your apps isnt something to be proud of.

[belfastdispatcher]

lol that is because android is tons of free or 99 cents. The ads are great for the android community in this respect. Charging more for your apps isnt something to be proud of.

Yeah but from the company's and its developers point of view the Appworld is generating cash, it's not Rim or Apple or Google that makes the apps, it's the developers.
All the apps Rim makes are free, IM clients, facebook, twitter, travel, protect, news feeds etc etc

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[lnichols]

lol that is because android is tons of free or 99 cents. The ads are great for the android community in this respect. Charging more for your apps isnt something to be proud of.

Yes, but at the same time if you don't have much money sunk into apps, then you don't have much holding you to the platform when something better comes along. Apple has gotten people to buy tons of apps, so when an Apple user is done with their contract, if they leave the Apple ecosystem then they are going to be out of that app investment over the two years, making the decision to leave greater. If most of your apps are free and paid for with adds and someone can go to another platform and get a better platform with the same apps available then their is really nothing holding you to that ecosystem. This is why I think that QNX handhelds have a greater chance of getting Android users to convert than Apple because apple has an extremely strong ecosystem where Android has a bunch of free apps and various app stores, assuming RIM has built up a great QNX ecosystem by then.

[lnichols]

For your last statement, YES they just may have sold a lot. Consumers don't need BES and some don't even need BIS. Plenty folks, shock to folks here, never even set up e-mail on their blackberry. All they needed is a true consumer line. That line would be the one all the devs make apps for and there would only be one or two versions of it. Right now, many apps are made for lowest common denominator...the small screen and non-touch blackberry. So even if you have a Torch, you aren't getting any better experience. Its part of what killed the Storm (other than any bugs or issues).

OK so you take away BIS and BES from the Blackberry in this theoretical consumer line of phone that RIM would have offered. So no push e-mail (well maybe if you add EAS), no BBM. You basically have a dumb phone to SMS with a keyboard, add in web browser, and add a totally different environment and app platform to develop for because we all know that app developers love to add additional platforms.... How would that have kept people from going to Apple or Android or get people back from those platforms? WP7 and QNX as it is are having a hard time as it is getting developers.

RIM is working on porting QNX to phones. When they have this, you will have a much better OS that app developers can write software for and can write much better software for, a great web and media experience, and RIM will incorporate everything that makes a Blackberry as we know it now into it. It sucks that it is taking so long to get there, and there management was idiots for taking so long to finally realize what the market and users wanted, but in the end they will be able to do everything the other platforms can do, plus what a Blackberry can do, which is a good story. Hopefully it is not too late and new tools like the one from Adobe that creates Playbook, Android and iDevice apps from the same code will open things up.

[howarmat]

Yes, but at the same time if you don't have much money sunk into apps, then you don't have much holding you to the platform when something better comes along. Apple has gotten people to buy tons of apps, so when an Apple user is done with their contract, if they leave the Apple ecosystem then they are going to be out of that app investment over the two years, making the decision to leave greater. If most of your apps are free and paid for with adds and someone can go to another platform and get a better platform with the same apps available then their is really nothing holding you to that ecosystem. This is why I think that QNX handhelds have a greater chance of getting Android users to convert than Apple because apple has an extremely strong ecosystem where Android has a bunch of free apps and various app stores, assuming RIM has built up a great QNX ecosystem by then.

that is a good point, i cant say i have bought into the ecosystem with android since there are so many free choices but there are apps that i would hate to try and replace, free or otherwise. There are just tons of options with iOS and android so if one app doesnt work you can always try another.

[The_Engine]

RIM has many Challenges.

First they need to integrate all the companies, and more importantly cultures ,that they have acquired. Someone made the point about having wonderful ingredients but still needing to know how to Bake. That is a great analogy. They have to get rid of the people who turn into cancers in this situations. That alone can be very hard to do.

Second they need to Work on completing their Ecosystem. By that I mean that they have to have Messaging, Apps, Media (Music & Video), and Content (Documents & PIM Info). iOS, Android, and WP7 all have aspects of this, but no one really has it all. Apple is making a push with iCloud and iMessage, and Android has Music Beta and Google Docs. What does RIM have? They have BES/BIS so that have the Messaging and PIM, and i think where they are going with BB ID is in this direction. But they need a solid roadmap for this. Partnerships with Amazon & NetFlix would go a long way. Not 7 digital and Kobo. (Nothing against those companies, but RIM needs to be Big time, not small potatoes. Like WTF!?)

Third they have innovate. However, here I think the saying is that whatever is old, is new. Apple and Android platforms focus on Apps. The OS feels more like a stringing together of different apps. There are some points where they have tight Integration, but I think BB OS was always a more integrated OS. WP7 is going that way as well. Even looking to innovate by pulling Apps into the OS as far as Integration Goes. RIM needs to look at that Integration and work to take that to the next level. I think QNX has a lot of experience in terminal and emulation. How can they take the Mobile OS and integrate it more with the Desktop and Tablet OS? I should be able to seamlessly move from a Desktop or Laptop where I am doing something to a Tablet or Smartphone, and then to a TV or Projector.

Lastly, they need to Communicate better and have better PR. For example, Apple wanted to monetize the Internet content that people would access on their iPhones. So what did they do? Demonize a technology like Flash that would allow users to get content outside Apple's Control, then they created the App concept to deliver the SAME CONTENT A USER COULD GET FROM THE INTERNET for free, and then they convinced everyone that they needed "An App for That". So they convinced everyone that you had to get your internet through Apps in itunes. (were you pay Apple for it BTW). And they did it so convincingly that the # apps available has become a benchmark for these platforms. And who do you think leads that category? Apple literally has leading the mobile consumers by the nose and slipping blinders on their eyes. RIM needs to be able to debunk some of that, and affect a bit of a cultural change. Why pay for an app when you can get the info Free.

When Basille said that much everyone freaked and said he was an *****. the man was dead on. But he needs the right people to help him message that, and build the campaign around that. Internet content flows through the browser and the OS helps you get at it. Not via third party apps that you pay add'l money for. i think a very successful campaign could/should be built around that concept. And if there is a great app out there, the OS can direct and integrate that Rich Content Delivery to you. You should have to go looking for it. Very much like where WP7 is trying to go, but just take to another level.

Okay - i didn't want to start rambling, but the point is that they are facing some serious hard times. They have the pieces to be come back much better than before and be a premier player. They have to honestly look at what the competition does better than they do, and learn from it. Absorb what has made others successful and then innovate with those ideas and take them in a new direction. Apple took RIM's Smartphone to a whole new level. Android is taking the Internet connected iPhone concept to another level altogether, WP7 is looking to streamline the whole mobile experience and deliver rich content to the end user through minimal device interface. RIM needs to take what these players are doing and put their own spin on it and move it in a new direction, or complete the puzzle that all these others have a few pieces of.

Can they do it? Only time will tell.

[lnichols]

Just because you take away BIS doesn't mean you don't have data. And just because this is the way they do BBM doesn't mean it is the only way to do BBM. As for the argument its another platform for developers, do you realize it is already an "other" platform.

Everything that makes a Blackberry as we know it is exactly what needs to be blown up and re-imagined.

You don't get 60 million subscribers if your doing something wrong. The other platform is QNX which will be able to do what a Blackberry does, so just be patient and wait for QNX, or don't and go Android or iPhone.

iMessage is BBM, just substitute the RIM NOC with the iCloud NOC. Why abandon the existing infrastructure if it works and people like it

[Economist101]

For example, Apple wanted to monetize the Internet content that people would access on their iPhones. So what did they do? Demonize a technology like Flash that would allow users to get content outside Apple's Control, then they created the App concept to deliver the SAME CONTENT A USER COULD GET FROM THE INTERNET for free, and then they convinced everyone that they needed "An App for That". So they convinced everyone that you had to get your internet through Apps in itunes. (were you pay Apple for it BTW). And they did it so convincingly that the # apps available has become a benchmark for these platforms. And who do you think leads that category? Apple literally has leading the mobile consumers by the nose and slipping blinders on their eyes.

Wow. One, Flash didn't ship in a usable form on a mobile touch screen device until May of 2010. The iPhone launched in June 2007, so let's not pretend it was an option for the launch of the iPhone, the iPhone 3G, or the iPhone 3GS.

Two, as I recall, Apple pushed developers toward HTML5 web apps in lieu of native apps from January 2007 through March of 2008. In fact, the App Store idea grew out of developer discontent over web apps as a solution. Even today, if indeed native app content is " the SAME CONTENT A USER COULD GET FROM THE INTERNET for free", then there's no barrier to any developer providing that content outside the App Store via a web app. Perhaps you're unaware, but web apps which require neither the SDK nor Apple's approval can be accessed by all 200 million of the iOS devices sold. So yes, there is STILL a way to get content to iOS users outside of Apple's control, which quite frankly cuts the legs out from under your argument. Are native apps better? Generally. But the only way? Not even close.

Also, let's keep something else in mind: there's a reason that none of RIM's phones include any variation of Flash, and I don't think it's to set up the sale of native apps.

When Basille said that much everyone freaked and said he was an *****. the man was dead on.

RIM was getting to launch a device that lacked any real 3rd party app support and without the "coming" NDK. What else would you expect him to say? Interestingly, at the same time he was saying that you "don't need apps when you've got the full web," RIM was running an ad trumpeting their own "superapps" on BlackBerry devices.

[The_Engine]

Wow. One, Flash didn't ship in a usable form on a mobile touch screen device until May of 2010. The iPhone launched in June 2007, so let's not pretend it was an option for the launch of the iPhone, the iPhone 3G, or the iPhone 3GS.

Two, as I recall, Apple pushed developers toward HTML5 web apps in lieu of native apps from January 2007 through March of 2008. In fact, the App Store idea grew out of developer discontent over web apps as a solution. Even today, if indeed native app content is " the SAME CONTENT A USER COULD GET FROM THE INTERNET for free", then there's no barrier to any developer providing that content outside the App Store via a web app. Perhaps you're unaware, but web apps which require neither the SDK nor Apple's approval can be accessed by all 200 million of the iOS devices sold. So yes, there is STILL a way to get content to iOS users outside of Apple's control, which quite frankly cuts the legs out from under your argument. Are native apps better? Generally. But the only way? Not even close.

Also, let's keep something else in mind: there's a reason that none of RIM's phones include any variation of Flash, and I don't think it's to set up the sale of native apps.

Good points. But look at what other manufacturers have done. They recognized flash as something that dominates the internet and worked with Adobe to improve flash specifically for mobile. RIM's current hardware has no where near the hardware or software to work with flash. They already have enough memory management issues. Not trying to get flash in before QNX is probably one of the few good decisions that they have made.

RIM was getting to launch a device that lacked any real 3rd party app support and without the "coming" NDK. What else would you expect him to say? Interestingly, at the same time he was saying that you "don't need apps when you've got the full web," RIM was running an ad trumpeting their own "superapps" on BlackBerry devices.

Basille wasn't saying this because the playbook or bbos has little to no apps. I also think he said this at MWC when they were showing off the new browser for 6 so playbook wasn't in the mix. RIM was spending millions to court developers so he wasn't talking down apps because they didn't have enough. Give him a small bit of credit. He was speaking truthfully. But like I said the messaging needed work and it has to be encapsulated in an overall roadmap. IMHO the OS is the superapp. Apps should serve per specific functions. Take bbos travel. That app combines info from several.different streams into a consolidated delivery to the end user. And it integrates with the OS and back end as well. That app alone gives me.some hope for RIM

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[alsawa2]

I'm not seeing any thing new from RIM just the different kind of BlackBerry devices!
They should create something big!