[kbz1960]

I only hope and assume that they kept the brain trust along with the purchase of QNX. If they are going to rely on their own not so brain trust I'm not so sure they can execute it right.

[Rello]

I agree with a lot of and and will say that while I don't think RIM will ever be as dominant as they were 4 years ago, I do think they will bounce back from this. No doubt are they tryin to get everything back in order, but for people to say that they are dead is kinda crazy to me. The company is still making crazy profit and haven't released a single phone almost 7 months into the year. I'm not agreeing with their practices, but that shows that even though they're losing ground in the US, they must be doin something right elsewhere. Over 500 million in profit, and more than 1 billion in cash on hand......RIM isn't going anywhere but its good to see that the CEO's have finally woke up from their slumber party and see the situation they are in. Between TAT, QNX, Dash, rumors of working with You I and other purchases...I do believe that RIM has something up their sleeves once the QNX devices arrive. A couple of the companys they acquired said they were primarily focused on the QNX operating system....which is probably why we haven't seen any new features from the acquisitions like Dash. RIM bought them 2 years ago and there has been no new navigation features on either BB devices or the Playbook.

I fully expect RIM to come out swinging with the QNX superphones. I know I will at least give them this last chance before I start thinking about switching to another platform

[technology_fanboy]

The PB is a very important stepping stone for RIM. Once they get get all the key features running on QNX it will be a much easier migration path for their smart phones. The next several months will be difficult but all the key elements are slowly coming together.

Steve Jobs is amazing, he has magical powers over his followers. He can do no wrong, just look at the way Apple escaped antenagate without even a scratch.

RIM stock currently represents great value. Their P/E ratio is excellent. I am thinking of picking up even more shares later on this week, hoping for a better deal but think the sell of has reached bottom.

In my eyes, RIM's biggest problem is lack of ability to communicate their vision and their strategy. The lack of details and specifics is worry some to investors. I think RIM is on the right path, they have made all the right acquisitions and the pieces of the puzzles are coming together, slowly but surely.

[Dapper37]

I thought this was about sinking rim and all, you ramble about is apple and android. Hater

Grammar check on the ipaid guy.

[lotuslanderz]

I certainly think they will bounce back to being a stronger company, with QNX, TAT, and other purchases, they are getting a very strong potential portfolio.

I very much don't think they will take #1 again, that will be ruled by Android based devices, but I do truly believe that they will unseat Apple, Apple is positioning itself to being attacked on every angel, they ARE the target, their PC market will come under attack, their tablet market under attack, Steve Jobs is what helps make Apple what it is, and he isn't going to be around in his current capacity much longer.
Android devices will beat Apple on every spec
Amazon and other MP3 tools will beat iTunes for features and ease of use eventually, and Windows 8 REALLY looks like it could recapture those who moved to OSX,

RIM is fortunate that they can run 1 full quarter with zero sales and still not be in the red due to cash on hand against opperating costs. They have the ability to REALLY reinvent their market with QNX, and seeing as they are actively buying companys it seems they are trying to do just that. They can come back to being a top solution again.

THOUGH! They very much could become a niche product if they don't come out fighting in 2012

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Maybe it's already started. Any reason why AAPL is down $28 since May 31st (to June 17)? BTW, RIMM was down ~$15 during the same period. Yeah I know, junk math, junk stats, but nonetheless, I found it interesting.

I do hope RIM makes a comeback. It's nice to have choice, and it's nice to root for the underdog. Eh?

[Economist101]

very much don't think they will take #1 again, that will be ruled by Android based devices, but I do truly believe that they will unseat Apple, Apple is positioning itself to being attacked on every angel, they ARE the target, their PC market will come under attack, their tablet market under attack, Steve Jobs is what helps make Apple what it is, and he isn't going to be around in his current capacity much longer.

It sounds like the reversal you expect is tied more to your belief that Apple will suddenly collapse than to anything RIM is doing, which quite frankly is kind of sad. As for Apple's PC market being "under attack," exactly who is this going after Apple's 8% of the market selling premium PCs? Sony? HP?

[RicanMedic78]

RIM is making a new type of mistake all over again. now instead of being behind, they r going to try to "match" the competition and thats a bad strategy. At this point, they need to innovate, push the technology, and do a few things that advance them over the competition. And somehow, I dont think they are trying to do that with their new upcoming line up. No 4g, no forward cameras, no QNX, not any better software apps, not the best spec'd rear camera, etc etc

Even QNX, as good as it sounds.... when it finally comes out mid to late 2012, droid and IOS will probably be far ahead of that and there the problem lies all over again.

Its not even about 1ghz processors or more RAM anymore.... now its about doing somethng new or just end up in the dirt.

I never thought I would see the day that owning a blackberry was the "cheap" alternative to a real smart phone! WOW! They did that to themselves bigtime! And we screamed about this for years! Now I have a droid and am amazed at what I was truely missing! I went from 1990 straight into the 21st centry with this thing! And even though I wont turn back, theres still something that my BB has that makes me look at it from across the room wishing it had the power and specs of what I currently hold.

So I guess RIM has a small glimmer of hope there... But I think its only a small glimmer. And with the hasty decisions they are making even today, I dont see them changing and taking advantage of that small glimmer

[_StephenBB81]

It sounds like the reversal you expect is tied more to your belief that Apple will suddenly collapse than to anything RIM is doing, which quite frankly is kind of sad. As for Apple's PC market being "under attack," exactly who is this going after Apple's 8% of the market selling premium PCs? Sony? HP?

OH I do NOT think Apple is going to collapse, I believe it's upwards trend is reaching the top of it's peak,

And Apple Cracked 10% of the PC market in October 2010, and if you ONLY account for notebooks they have a much higher % of the market share, they are the 3rd Largest seller of PC's in the US, they very much are a target for the likes of Acer, and Toshiba who are attempting to build thinner notebooks. Microsoft CLEARLY took note of Apples increase in market share when they released the "I'm a PC" Television advertisements.

Apple is a very strong company, and with being that strong you start to come under attack from more angles, CAN they remain as strong if they get 1 solid competitor in each of their facets? I don't expect them to fold, but they can't continue their growth pattern, and dominance when so many others are fighting for it,

RIM's claiming of the #2 spot would NEED to be a combination of Better products, which OS7 products look to be, and hopefully QNX will be another hardware upgrade beyond OS7 devices. and they need Apple to be less focused on iPhone/iPad, if Apple's focus reshifted to their notebooks & Enterprise & servers they would be battling google and Apple, leaving RIM a little less pressure and hopefully having them play a game to win, and not play the game to not lose

[_StephenBB81]

RIM is making a new type of mistake all over again. now instead of being behind, they r going to try to "match" the competition and thats a bad strategy. At this point, they need to innovate, push the technology, and do a few things that advance them over the competition. And somehow, I dont think they are trying to do that with their new upcoming line up. No 4g, no forward cameras, no QNX, not any better software apps, not the best spec'd rear camera, etc etc

Ummm?? wouldn't 4G / FFC / be just copying the competition?

RIM is working on NFC which is pretty new in the North American Market, RIM is working on Social network integration with the BBM platform,
RIM is improving BES for their corporate customers

they are innovating, and not just copying, putting anything greater than a 5MP camera on a mobile phone is redundant, your picture quality degrades as the sensor for the 5MP camera and the 8MP camera is the same so you increase noise levels on the image, and increase file size with no value, a better image sensor behind the 5MP camera is the way to go,

though I do agree that it isn't a winning strategy to just play ME TO, if they want to remain a player they have to be in the market to WIN and not in the Market to NOT LOSE, ( I think I've said this a few times?)

[jacmeister68]

OH I do NOT think Apple is going to collapse, I believe it's upwards trend is reaching the top of it's peak,

And Apple Cracked 10% of the PC market in October 2010, and if you ONLY account for notebooks they have a much higher % of the market share, they are the 3rd Largest seller of PC's in the US, they very much are a target for the likes of Acer, and Toshiba who are attempting to build thinner notebooks. Microsoft CLEARLY took note of Apples increase in market share when they released the "I'm a PC" Television advertisements.

Apple is a very strong company, and with being that strong you start to come under attack from more angles, CAN they remain as strong if they get 1 solid competitor in each of their facets? I don't expect them to fold, but they can't continue their growth pattern, and dominance when so many others are fighting for it,

RIM's claiming of the #2 spot would NEED to be a combination of Better products, which OS7 products look to be, and hopefully QNX will be another hardware upgrade beyond OS7 devices. and they need Apple to be less focused on iPhone/iPad, if Apple's focus reshifted to their notebooks & Enterprise & servers they would be battling google and Apple, leaving RIM a little less pressure and hopefully having them play a game to win, and not play the game to not lose

DeRussett, agree with your assessment that APPLE have now reached the zenith of their powers. I expect them to come down gradually. As we have seen Apple have become Microsoft and Microsoft have become Apple. If Mr Jobs carries on then they will stay a bit longer but should he have a prolonged absence, they have no one to replace him, he is the company. IOS 5 has borrowed everybodys best points and not really innovated. Maybe this aspect points at his recent absence.

The only way RIM can recover is to bring out QNX to hhs asap.

[Economist101]

And Apple Cracked 10% of the PC market in October 2010, and if you ONLY account for notebooks they have a much higher % of the market share, they are the 3rd Largest seller of PC's in the US, they very much are a target for the likes of Acer, and Toshiba who are attempting to build thinner notebooks. Microsoft CLEARLY took note of Apples increase in market share when they released the "I'm a PC" Television advertisements.

Acer and Toshiba (and Samsung and Dell) aren't merely "attempting" to build thinner notebooks; in some cases they are. But thus far it hasn't worked, in part because Macs aren't merely thinner versions of PCs; software remains a differentiator. The idea that Apple has its section of the market because other makers haven't built similar hardware is laughable; ask Dell and their failed XPS line, or Samsung with their new laptops. As for Microsoft, I don't think it matters what Microsoft is doing; those "I'm a PC" ads have made no discernible difference in either Macintosh or PC market performance.

This argument you're making implicitly rejects something I read on these forums frequently, specifically that Apple is "all marketing" and that Apple users will buy anything with an Apple on it. It's good of you to note that it takes a little more than marketing to sell products.

and they need Apple to be less focused on iPhone/iPad, if Apple's focus reshifted to their notebooks & Enterprise & servers they would be battling google and Apple, leaving RIM a little less pressure and hopefully having them play a game to win, and not play the game to not lose

This doesn't make any sense. One, Apple has had plenty of success in notebooks even as they focus on other things (as they have for many years). Two, they've never been an "enterprise" company. Three, they do not even build real servers anymore outside of a server version of the Mac Mini. As long as the iPhone directly results in 50% of Apple's profit, it will be a primary focus. Similarly, the iPad is hugely successful, and though you're suggesting it's "under attack" the reality is that they've sold at least 5.3 million units in the first ten weeks of the current quarter (through 6/6/11), a significant jump from the previous quarter tally of 4.7 million, despite the market presence of the PlayBook, Xoom, Transformer, Galaxy Tab, etc.

[kbz1960]

Off topic, but economist101 if you're so smart and you live in the USA why don't you focus on a way to fix our economy that is in the sh___er? I'd much rather see that happen then apple ruling the world.

[rollingrock1988]

I can't say one way or another. It's not looking good but as others have said, every company goes through growing pains.

I just hope they do. This is my first BB and I love it. I would hate to move away from this platform.

[RicanMedic78]

Well, if Motorola did it, I guess rim has someone to take pointers from

[dutchtender]

honestly? no.

[Shlooky]

I don't think RIM will bounce back to be this strong company it once was. I predict that it will be a niche product, hold it's own in the market place but nothing more.

It will take RIM at least a few more years for QNX to stabilize for both the PB and BB devices, while Apple and Google kill the consumer market with updated OS's and more feature sets and apps.

In order to make money, RIM will eventually have to give into the ever expanding Android and iOS eco systems and incorporate them into their BES so corporations can take advantage of the various handsets and not just BB.

[Stonedicator]

I do not think RIM will bounce back a stronger company. At their peak RIM was the main player in a market with very few competitors. Those days are long gone. Let me go into further detail. For argument purposes I will use Google and Apple and just compare OS's.

RIM's problems are all rooted in the fact they never learned how to compete. RIM had a great idea... bring email to secure smartphones. They did that in an excellent fashion and dominated. They did not need to worry about Palm or MSFT phones as they could not compete. RIM won market share by being the default option. Their consumer was the middle-aged person with a job dependent on email.

Fast forward to the market of today. Google and Apple won market share by competing in the RIMM vs GOOG vs AAPL world. This market is very cutthroat and one quickly learns to be successful you need to be AHEAD of the other companies. 2 of those companies realized to succeed one needs to be innovative and ahead of the curve. The main consumer has changed to the avg media consuming individual and 2 of those companies have positioned themselves to provide that consumer with what he/she needs. I will let you decide which 2 companies I am talking about.

As an example of what I am talking about I will use my current cell situation. I have a Tour and am ready for an upgrade. If I walk into Verizon today and upgrade I walk out with a 9650. We all know that while a fine phone, with the 9650 I am severly behind the times on day 1 of a two year contract. Will the same be said about the next round of BB's? Yes. The Bold touch will come out and be severly behind the times on day 1. Argue this if you want it is just my opinion. If BB released a 4G/QNX phone I would not by typing this as I would be en route to the Verizon store asap. As a side note this is actually the phone I am waiting for I just hope my Tour will last until that day!

I will end with this note. Picture me in a world class kitchen. I have all the tools at my hands to make a spectacular dinner. Unfortunately, all I can make is Mac and cheese. RIM has TAT, QNX, etc etc. I fully believe they HAVE to tools they just don't have a clue on how to use them. A change of CEO is needed but I will save that analysis for another thread.

Stone

[lnichols]

Well, if Motorola did it, I guess rim has someone to take pointers from

Motorola lost $28 Million last quarter, RIM made $695 Million. Who should be taking pointers from whom?

[dandbj13]

OK, folks, let's have a little fireside chat. Unfortunately, we're going to have to be perfectly honest if we are going to get anywhere near the truth. RIM is no a premium smartphone company anymore. They are not the only obvious choice for enterprise and government. They do not have any consumer cache' left. They are not on the cutting edge for the geek elite crowd. And they don't even demand the kind of radical loyalty from their own fan base as they once did. Not only this, but none of these things they have lost will ever come back. Ever!

So, what do they have left.

Before answering that, I just want to note that I am reminded of the scene in the last Rocky movie where his trainer was telling Rocky that to win, he needed legs, endurance, speed, etc, and that he didn't have any of that. The only thing he had was the ability to take punishment, and pure punching power.

Back to RIM. What they have is a recognizable, affordable, and accessible product for emerging markets. This is a polite way of saying that at least they have potential in the second and third world countries who can't afford super phones. When a once-great company like RIM starts talking about their strength as a vender in underdeveloped nations, let's face it; it's over. Stick a fork in them. Their done.

If you are not furious enough at my post, let me just throw in a but more gasoline. It was the iPhone that killed them. More to the point, it was RIM's stubborn, shortsighted, arrogant refusal to even acknowledge that the iPhone had arrived and changed everything. RIM is probably still waiting on the world to just get over this touchscreen nonsense and get back to the good old days.

[kbz1960]

Is your point to make everyone furious? Well not done here with me anyway. I seem to remember that apple was dead at one time. Do you assume they are the only company capable of doing it? I do agree with you about RIM's management.

[dandbj13]

Is your point to make everyone furious? Well not done here with me anyway. I seem to remember that apple was dead at one time. Do you assume they are the only company capable of doing it? I do agree with you about RIM's management.

No, my friend. I don't want to make anyone furious. Most people who erupt in anger on discussion boards were already angry by the time they got here. Venting that anger is partly why they came. I'm actually OK with that. I just wanted to acknowledge that my words could have the affect of inspiring an angry response. I try to have fun on discussion boards, even when things are a bit contentious, perhaps, especially when things get a bit contentious.

I can think you the biggest ***** in the world at one moment, while considering you the best of friends the next moment. We all have more in common than differences, but it is the differences that are interesting. No one goes to a discussion board just to have everyone nod in agreement. What a boring and meaningless discussion that would be. We only learn and grow when we encounter something different from what we knew or expected.

So I don't mind if people get furious with me on occasion. But if we ever meet in person, I will be happy to raise a pint with you.

As for corporate resurrections, I honestly can't think of more than a handful that have happened in my lifetime of 41 years. The ones that have did so because of a visionary taking the reins of leadership and jettisoning the baggage of the past. I can't think of a resurrection that took place by a company that could not completely acknowledge their utter failure, and throw out the old leadership that brought them down.

I just don't see either of these things happening at RIM. They are singing the country song, "The Truth About Men." They're not wrong; they're not sorry, and they're probably going to do it again. In their hearts, they think their strategy has been correct, and the rest of the world is out of step. They are unrepentant, IMO. Second, I don't see the board dumping the co-CEOs and themselves along with them. Apple did the hard things that make a corporate resurrection possible. RIM, not so much.

Cheers, and good night.

[Economist101]

Is your point to make everyone furious? Well not done here with me anyway. I seem to remember that apple was dead at one time.

The circumstances of the two companies (Apple then vs RIM now) aren't remotely similar. For one, RIM isn't as bad off now as Apple was then. Not even close. Two, RIM doesn't have its founder riding back in to save it; unfortunately, RIM's founder has been present throughout their struggles.

[Rootbrian]

Research in motion will continue their research and will continue to ride that wave until it changes direction either with the good or bad. As long as BIS works for me and rimm isn't gone bankrupt (they have $2 billion), I'll be happy. Besides, I don't buy or sell stocks, never ever got into that and won't do so in the future either.

I just hope rim's peeps make a great choice and go by it without messing up.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[belfastdispatcher]

With carrier around the world putting prices up for data Rim might just have an ace up their sleeve after all. Look at Verizon's upcoming prices just announced.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[kbz1960]

Hey dandbj13, glad we can have a discussion without flaming or anyone getting upset. I agree some go to forums to vent or just plain be a **** for reactions.

I do like rim products and heck I even like the OS but I'm old lol. This coming from a consumer my phone has nothing to do with work. I do wish that rim would their proverbial head out of their arse.

Cheers.