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03-02-11 08:50 AM
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  1. Jack_123's Avatar
    I have been seriously pondering over why all the 2011 models of BB are still low over "app memory" where you can actually install the apps... In this world where people almost allow unlimited apps to be installed on a phone, I feel this to be a serious drawback. The latest highest amount that i saw somewhere was 768 MB. Any idea if there are any other phones with 1G plus of RAM?
    02-21-11 09:48 AM
  2. JimiMack's Avatar
    I believe that BB apps are smaller than say apps for Android or iPhone. I also know RIM does a better job of compressing the data to and from your BB so it also uses less bandwidth than the others. I am running a 9650 with .443 OS6 and after themes and apps I am still have 312MB of memory. Still giving me a lot of room to add more apps and run the system easily. The 768MB units are due out later this year and more than likely it is because RIM knows the OS's coming in the future will need to get get bigger and more complex.
    02-21-11 09:57 AM
  3. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Just wondering ... I think that the Torch has the most app memory of any BB. Has anyone actually used up all available memory on one yet? I haven't heard of anybody. I've got 30 apps and games -- most of which I seldom use -- and I still have over 287 mb free. Exactly how much more memory do these things need?
    02-21-11 11:53 AM
  4. volcano55's Avatar
    I agree. There's not enough. I am nearly out of memory and there are constantly things I want to download but can't anymore. I have the 9700 memory which I know is less compared to the new BBs that will be coming out but I can see it still would not be enough for me. For others, it may be enough but certainly not for me.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-21-11 12:05 PM
  5. valorian's Avatar
    Why does a phone need 1G of app memory? Are you really going to load that many apps onto a phone (and actually use all of them) to use up 768MB? Or do you just want to be able to say "I've got more apps loaded than you do!"?
    02-21-11 12:09 PM
  6. Bobcat665's Avatar
    Haven't any of you heard of iPhone games that are over 30 mb, that are so graphics and audio intensive that they make most BB games look quite crappy in comparison? A handful of those games would eat up such "surplus" app storage space in a hurry. This is the future of mobile apps and RIM had better catch up!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-21-11 12:18 PM
  7. Jack_123's Avatar
    Haven't any of you heard of iPhone games that are over 30 mb, that are so graphics and audio intensive that they make most BB games look quite crappy in comparison? A handful of those games would eat up such "surplus" app storage space in a hurry. This is the future of mobile apps and RIM had better catch up!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Totally agree - its not about competing - its about the capabilities that are shifting from a computer to a mobile device and that includes games, entertainment, multiple number of apps that could do a zillion different things. Usecases are gazillion and hence we need memory for all this. I am a die hard fan of bb and hence really want them to catch up! I just hope they work on this limited apps <-> memory relationship.
    Android already is testing out running two OS'es from single phone, to lure corporate deployments who can deploy a 'secure' image of OS on the phone and still allow the user to keep his personal phone and maintain connections using vpn etc.. - imagine the amount of memory that it will need. (I know bb has been working on that idea....but when it comes out is the question.)
    Bobcat665 likes this.
    02-21-11 12:32 PM
  8. FigureThisOut's Avatar
    Why does a phone need 1G of app memory? Are you really going to load that many apps onto a phone (and actually use all of them) to use up 768MB? Or do you just want to be able to say "I've got more apps loaded than you do!"?
    To me, the larger app memory has to do with performance without much lag.
    02-21-11 12:35 PM
  9. Spencerdl's Avatar
    For me I have to ask myself "do I want a phone that last a day and half of a phone that last an hour and half". The more stuff the more battery usage, the larger the battery the less portability, and most important do I want a phone that does extra things or extra things that has a phone. For me its all about COMMUNICATION everything else is EXTRA. BLACKBERRY is a good fit for ME all of my bells and whistles are home on my enterainment system.
    02-21-11 12:55 PM
  10. Mr One 2's Avatar
    Unless we're talking about debt isn't more usually better? I don't get BB users who say that specs don't matter and app memory doesn't matter. Are you still using a computer from 1980? I believe bigger is better and the more apps the better. I say its rims job to make better specs and make it work w good battery life ect. My buddy has a droid 2 with a crap ton of apps and while his phone looks a mess w stuff all over (I don't think he knows how to organize his phone, or if you can w android.) but he never complains about battery or lag and I say give it to me rim!!!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-21-11 03:05 PM
  11. cwong15's Avatar
    Not that I am excusing RIM, but I think that we have made decent progress along the way. My first BB was a Curve 8320. With nothing installed, it had about 20MB of free application memory available. Of course, we were supposed to keep about 10MB of that free at all times, so that effectively left us with 10MB with which to install memory. My Torch has 300MB of free application memory when "clean", so that is in improvement of 3000% over my first Curve.

    While it's always nice to have more, I don't think having a "merely" a few hundred MB of application memory to play with is a serious limitation to application development. It takes a lot of serious coding -- as in several full time developers over a few months -- to write even 1MB of pure code. Everything else is mostly resources such as graphics and text. An app can be smart in offloading non-code data to secondary memory, of which you have a few GB. After all, Kindle and other reader apps always save their ebooks to the SD.
    02-21-11 03:25 PM
  12. grover5's Avatar
    I think more app memory would be good. I think they should throw 1 GB on these personally but I am fine with 512 or 768. On a side note, I hear all the time on these forums that android phones don't lag. In my experience that is completely false. My GF has the Vibrant and used to have the mytouch 3g and both lag all the time. It's actually her number one complaint about Android.
    02-21-11 03:31 PM
  13. nomi1978's Avatar
    Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of the new spec sheets said 768 MB RAM. I was under the impression with the new 6.1 OS the apps would be part of the 8gb internal memory etc.
    02-21-11 03:41 PM
  14. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    I believe that BB apps are smaller than say apps for Android or iPhone. I also know RIM does a better job of compressing the data to and from your BB so it also uses less bandwidth than the others. I am running a 9650 with .443 OS6 and after themes and apps I am still have 312MB of memory. Still giving me a lot of room to add more apps and run the system easily. The 768MB units are due out later this year and more than likely it is because RIM knows the OS's coming in the future will need to get get bigger and more complex.
    1. Android/iOS/WP7 Apps are nto really that comparable... They have high resolution graphics and in many cases they can't offload as much functionality to RIM's infrastructure as the Blackberry apps.

    However... Something like PingChat! on Android is smaller than Blackberry Messenger... RIM's IM clients seem to be especially bloated seeing as how they're only single-protocol. Blackberry Apps tend to be smaller in most cases because size is an issue on BBs, but not on other platforms - it wasn't even an issue on Windows Mobile, because it supported installing Apps to SD since forever...

    When you have 1.5GB App storage (500MB more than some of the new BBs coming out) after the first boot and support installing Apps to SD, size just isn't much of an issue.

    Neverming the WP7/iOS/WebOS devices with 8-32GB of onboard storage for basically anything - apps included.

    2. 312 MB of memory is not a lot. There's a lot of maintenance or restructions that come with that. Blackberry users set their devices to only keep relatively low thresholds of emails/calendar data on the devices. Emails and Attachments are truncated to prevent the storage from being eaten up. They're always setting a relatively small browser cache (or frequently clearing it), etc.

    3. 768 isn't much better than 512 if the OS and stock/bloatware apps eat into the difference.
    02-21-11 04:15 PM
  15. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    Just wondering ... I think that the Torch has the most app memory of any BB. Has anyone actually used up all available memory on one yet? I haven't heard of anybody. I've got 30 apps and games -- most of which I seldom use -- and I still have over 287 mb free. Exactly how much more memory do these things need?
    I know Dungeon Defenders, a game on Android, uses hundreds of MB of space.

    I don't know what kind of games you play, but I doubt they are graphically captivating and are probablly just quasi board/arcade games.

    Good games require lots of space.

    Browse the Android, iOS, or WP7 marketplaces for games.

    Also, OS updates often tend to increase the size of the OS (added functionality, etc.) so over time it eats into the free space.

    IRT the torch. The Torch and the Bold 9780 have the same amount of App Memory, and roughly the same amount free on first boot. They have 512 - that's it. The Gigs of internal storage in the Torch is not for app storage. It's for Media. Basically a pre-installed internal SD Card.
    02-21-11 04:17 PM
  16. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    For me I have to ask myself "do I want a phone that last a day and half of a phone that last an hour and half". The more stuff the more battery usage, the larger the battery the less portability, and most important do I want a phone that does extra things or extra things that has a phone. For me its all about COMMUNICATION everything else is EXTRA. BLACKBERRY is a good fit for ME all of my bells and whistles are home on my enterainment system.
    And I guess IGNORANCE is BLISS?

    Because I'm sure iOS and Android Devices load every app installed on the device at boot up and keep them running to drain the battery?

    And I'm guessing WP7 phones, which don't even multi-task, are doing this as well with their 8-16G (or more if your phone has an SD Card Slot) internal storage usable for everything - apps included?

    Lol.

    Isn't the "toy" argument getting a bit... washed out, by now?
    K Bear and howarmat like this.
    02-21-11 04:21 PM
  17. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    Not that I am excusing RIM, but I think that we have made decent progress along the way. My first BB was a Curve 8320. With nothing installed, it had about 20MB of free application memory available. Of course, we were supposed to keep about 10MB of that free at all times, so that effectively left us with 10MB with which to install memory. My Torch has 300MB of free application memory when "clean", so that is in improvement of 3000% over my first Curve.

    While it's always nice to have more, I don't think having a "merely" a few hundred MB of application memory to play with is a serious limitation to application development. It takes a lot of serious coding -- as in several full time developers over a few months -- to write even 1MB of pure code. Everything else is mostly resources such as graphics and text. An app can be smart in offloading non-code data to secondary memory, of which you have a few GB. After all, Kindle and other reader apps always save their ebooks to the SD.
    Yes, it is. Because there are always going to be a ton of people who say "too big, not downloading it."

    Read the Android market and people with mid-ranged phones are doing the same thing there. "App doesn't suppor installation to SD, too big, uninstalling..."

    There are for 5-7MB Apps, much less 20+ MB Games.

    Most music files are larger than the average Android App, BTW. WP7 apps tend to be smaller than Android apps, I've noticed.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of the new spec sheets said 768 MB RAM. I was under the impression with the new 6.1 OS the apps would be part of the 8gb internal memory etc.
    Typically Blackberry installs Apps to the same ROM as the OS like Windows Mobile, and the internal memory is basically an internal SD Card.

    Perhaps they are putting everything on one big internal NAND/SD Card/eMMC in the future devices.

    But if they do the way they did the torch, it will probably be 1GB for the OS and Apps and the rest for media.

    And yes, the 768 is the RAM - the real memory - not the storage/application/OS memory.

    With a 1GB ROM, the phone will probably have ~600 MB space free, which while better than before isn't really good. If the newer blackberries have higher res screens that in and of itself will likely bloat up some application sizes unless the developers stick to low res for backward compatibility. In that case, I wouldn't buy their new phones until Devs actually started supporting them [fully].

    Right now, Blackberry and Android are the only major smartphone OSes on the market that distinguish between App and Media Storage. WebOS, WP7, and WebOS all put everything together on one unified storage, and all three of them have 16GB+ storage devices (ironically none officially support SD Cards).

    Windows Mobile made the distinguishment, BUT it has supported installing apps to SD Cards since forever. Only certain apps (services, etc.) required being installed on the device. There are Symbian devices like the N8 with 16/32GB internal storage.
    Last edited by N8ter; 02-21-11 at 04:36 PM.
    02-21-11 04:28 PM
  18. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I know Dungeon Defenders, a game on Android, uses hundreds of MB of space.

    I don't know what kind of games you play, but I doubt they are graphically captivating and are probablly just quasi board/arcade games.

    Good games require lots of space.

    Browse the Android, iOS, or WP7 marketplaces for games.

    Also, OS updates often tend to increase the size of the OS (added functionality, etc.) so over time it eats into the free space.

    IRT the torch. The Torch and the Bold 9780 have the same amount of App Memory, and roughly the same amount free on first boot. They have 512 - that's it. The Gigs of internal storage in the Torch is not for app storage. It's for Media. Basically a pre-installed internal SD Card.
    Well, there ya go for one thing ... I didn't buy my phone to play 'captivating' games on. I just don't see the point on anything with a display that size (and that includes up to 4" displays of the other guys'). It's just not what I have a phone for, and I'm guessing that most other users who prefer their BB's don't have gaming high on their priority lists, either. If that's what you demand out of a phone, then I can see where you'd be disappointed with BB's. But again, by and large, gaming is not nor was ever intended to be BB's forte. I've got a very capable desktop computer for that if I want it, and my modest little 21" hi-def display would make the whole experience a lot more enjoyable than whatever could be crammed on a 4".

    Unless we're talking about debt isn't more usually better? I don't get BB users who say that specs don't matter and app memory doesn't matter. Are you still using a computer from 1980? I believe bigger is better and the more apps the better. I say its rims job to make better specs and make it work w good battery life ect. My buddy has a droid 2 with a crap ton of apps and while his phone looks a mess w stuff all over (I don't think he knows how to organize his phone, or if you can w android.) but he never complains about battery or lag and I say give it to me rim!!!
    Nobody is saying specs and app memory don't matter -- we're just wondering how much is going to be enough. As I noted earlier, I have more apps and games installed that I don't use than those that I do, and I still have more unused memory than I know what do do with. For people like me, any more app memory would just be a waste. For people like you, I'm guessing you're not ever going to get your ultimate portable gaming device from BB.
    valorian likes this.
    02-21-11 04:34 PM
  19. cwong15's Avatar
    Yes, it is. Because there are always going to be a ton of people who say "too big, not downloading it."
    That all depends on the developer. Look, there was a time when real PCs ran real apps and games in 64K (not MB) of RAM and had to run off floppies. We developers have all sorts of tricks to handle multi-level memory. Games, in particular are both the biggest memory hogs and also the most solvable. A game typically consists of a core engine plus lots and lots of resources that define the graphics and playfield. Nothing stops a game from being published as a tiny executable that downloads additional resources and saves them on the SD card. In fact, that's a classic use case for App World's in-app payments facility: to download additional play levels and such.

    Look at the Kindle app. There is a core app, but all the books you download goes into the SD. All sophisticated games that I've played always have to load stuff from disk to proceed to the next level or play a cut scene. We know how to solve this problem. We've solved this long ago, with far slower computers and far less memory.
    02-21-11 04:39 PM
  20. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    I have a perfectly good MacBook and a perfectly good Windows PC for gaming... my phone is a communications tool. And if all this app memory stuff is such a big deal, then WHY are BlackBerry still the number one selling smartphone in the UK? Because we're all anti-gamer? Because we're dumb? Or maybe because we don't see games on mobiles as such a big deal and stick to using a PC for it?
    valorian likes this.
    02-21-11 06:32 PM
  21. Mr One 2's Avatar
    Well, there ya go for one thing ... I didn't buy my phone to play 'captivating' games on. I just don't see the point on anything with a display that size (and that includes up to 4" displays of the other guys'). It's just not what I have a phone for, and I'm guessing that most other users who prefer their BB's don't have gaming high on their priority lists, either. If that's what you demand out of a phone, then I can see where you'd be disappointed with BB's. But again, by and large, gaming is not nor was ever intended to be BB's forte. I've got a very capable desktop computer for that if I want it, and my modest little 21" hi-def display would make the whole experience a lot more enjoyable than whatever could be crammed on a 4".


    Nobody is saying specs and app memory don't matter -- we're just wondering how much is going to be enough. As I noted earlier, I have more apps and games installed that I don't use than those that I do, and I still have more unused memory than I know what do do with. For people like me, any more app memory would just be a waste. For people like you, I'm guessing you're not ever going to get your ultimate portable gaming device from BB.
    I never said anything about games btw. To answer your question why does there ever have to be "when will it be enough". I say never! Technology is supposed to increase and get better. Having higher app memory will allow devs to create richer fuller apps, be it games or utilities. Why not have a phone w the functionality of a pc? Yeah it would be on a small screen, but look at what the atrix has done w the dummy laptop setup. So once again I say bring it on. Pack as much power and memory as you can into our devices.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    howarmat likes this.
    02-21-11 06:52 PM
  22. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I never said anything about games btw. To answer your question why does there ever have to be "when will it be enough". I say never! Technology is supposed to increase and get better. Having higher app memory will allow devs to create richer fuller apps, be it games or utilities. Why not have a phone w the functionality of a pc? Yeah it would be on a small screen, but look at what the atrix has done w the dummy laptop setup. So once again I say bring it on. Pack as much power and memory as you can into our devices.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Again, it all comes down to what you expect and demand from a phone. For many of us, it's primarily a communications device. I probably don't use half of what came pre-installed on mine (don't even use BBM!), never mind extravagant 3rd party apps or games. I'm one of those who believes that mobile platforms are best suited for simpler, short & sweet apps that accommodate tasks that can be completed in a few minutes or less. And I think it's pretty clear based on the rumored specs of the next batch of phones that anything more than that is not the direction RIM wants to go with BB. You can argue all you want -- and I'll even agree -- that some people want all that capability in their phones; but I really believe that they are far from the majority. And I think for the effort and expense required to develop and produce a platform like that, RIM will concede losing those users to one of the competitors. Sorry if that sounds impersonal, but these relatively few users demanding the most bleeding-edge hardware specs are simply not the users that RIM is targeting.
    02-21-11 07:58 PM
  23. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    One thing I didn't notice being said in this thread was that in OS6.1 supposedly will allow Apps to run off of onboard storage,

    Exclusive: BlackBerry Storm 3 shows up, tells all | BGR | Boy Genius Report

    so the "lack" of app memory is more a lack of RAM, though I don't think that is the case
    02-21-11 08:00 PM
  24. Mr One 2's Avatar
    Again, it all comes down to what you expect and demand from a phone. For many of us, it's primarily a communications device. I probably don't use half of what came pre-installed on mine (don't even use BBM!), never mind extravagant 3rd party apps or games. I'm one of those who believes that mobile platforms are best suited for simpler, short & sweet apps that accommodate tasks that can be completed in a few minutes or less. And I think it's pretty clear based on the rumored specs of the next batch of phones that anything more than that is not the direction RIM wants to go with BB. You can argue all you want -- and I'll even agree -- that some people want all that capability in their phones; but I really believe that they are far from the majority. And I think for the effort and expense required to develop and produce a platform like that, RIM will concede losing those users to one of the competitors. Sorry if that sounds impersonal, but these relatively few users demanding the most bleeding-edge hardware specs are simply not the users that RIM is targeting.
    Hey its the internet, its supposed to be impersonal lol! I agree w you that a majority of people don't want a lot of the functionality that come w smartphones as well. I believe that's why feature phone or dumb phones are still selling like hot cakes. I also believe many BB users are not honest w themselves about the "lack" of specs coming w the new batch of rim phones. Please don't take that personally because I believe your being honest. I would say the majority of smartphone users really do want more and more features, that's why we bought one to begin with.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-21-11 08:08 PM
  25. cwong15's Avatar
    One thing I didn't notice being said in this thread was that in OS6.1 supposedly will allow Apps to run off of onboard storage,

    Exclusive: BlackBerry Storm 3 shows up, tells all | BGR | Boy Genius Report

    so the "lack" of app memory is more a lack of RAM, though I don't think that is the case
    Actually, that is a good point. Do we in fact know that application memory will be small for the new devices? We've seen numbers for RAM. But RAM is not application memory, and has never been the limiting factor for app installation space, because apps don't install in RAM. Practically speaking as users, we don't care about RAM.

    Apps install in Flash, normally in a reserved area know as application space. For the Torch, this Flash space is 512MB (coincidently, that's the size of the RAM too, leading to confusion). All the new device specs don't distinguish application space from regular Flash. That link of yours said that the 8GB of Flash is for apps and data. Hmmm. Did RIM just blow away the application/data wall for Flash memory, opening all 4-8GB to application installation space? I doubt it, since the leaks of OS 6.1 features make no mention of this. But I would like to point out that the specs we do have on this forum for the next-gen devices do not actually tell us what the application space will be. Remember, RAM is not the number.
    02-21-11 08:25 PM
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