03-11-14 02:06 AM
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  1. Tõnis's Avatar
    Annnnd ding ding ding, a case study in how not to treat developers.


    I got blisters on me fingers! from using Tapatalk.
    It worked. I celebrated with a latte this morning.


    EDIT:

    Oh, and I see you edited your post and added in this cleverness:

    ... If you respond with the tone you use frequently on this board, no developer is paid enough to deal with you ...
    I'll edit mine and add that it's good I don't have to deal with any developer. I'll just go over his head -- to RIM.
    Last edited by Tõnis; 06-09-12 at 01:51 PM.
    06-09-12 01:30 PM
  2. Vijik's Avatar
    I recently took money back from a developer whose app didn't work. See my UPDATE in this topic:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...-buyer-727671/

    I won't be kissing any developers a$$es when their crap doesn't work.
    Any decent person who finds out that he has been barking on the wrong door (in this case App World failed to do its job, not the developer) and insulting an innocent person, would have said sorry for the insult.
    But, I guess, somebody don't have decency on their personality.
    06-09-12 01:56 PM
  3. Tõnis's Avatar
    Any decent person who finds out that he has been barking on the wrong door (in this case App World failed to do its job, not the developer) and insulting an innocent person, would have said sorry for the insult.
    But, I guess, somebody don't have decency on their personality.
    If AppWorld failed to do its job, why did it give the money back? Why didn't it just fix the problem and keep the money? RIM told me the problem was with the app, not with RIM/AppWorld. Are you a disgruntled app developer?
    06-09-12 01:58 PM
  4. Vijik's Avatar
    If AppWorld failed to do its job, why did it give the money back? Why didn't it just fix the problem and keep the money? RIM told me the problem was with the app, not with RIM/AppWorld. Are you a disgruntled app developer?
    App World sold you the theme, took your money, but didn't give you the code that was needed to use it. All that was done without the developer doing anything wrong.
    You insulted the wrong person, the developer.

    This is not about me. This is about you telling everybody here on this thread that not only you don't know who to blame, but also you don't know how to express that you did a big mistake insulting the wrong person!
    06-09-12 02:17 PM
  5. Tõnis's Avatar
    App World sold you the theme, took your money, but didn't give you the code that was needed to use it. All that was done without the developer doing anything wrong.
    You insulted the wrong person, the developer.

    This is not about me. This is about you telling everybody here on this thread that not only you don't know who to blame, but also you don't know how to express that you did a big mistake insulting the wrong person!
    So RIM lied when it told me to contact the developer because the problem was with the theme? You're telling the truth when you tell me the problem was RIM, not the developer? I'm a consumer. I don't have time to deal with this bs, and I don't even care if it was RIM's fault (not that I believe it was). As far as I'm concerned, RIM did right by me and refunded the money for a defective product, installation, delivery, whatever. Ultimately, it's not really my problem whose fault it is. But you seem to blame me because I "insulted" some developer (or developers in the aggregate). I'm going by what RIM initially told me: contact the developer; the problem is with the theme. I told RIM no, I'm too busy for that; give me a refund.
    Last edited by Tõnis; 06-09-12 at 02:43 PM.
    06-09-12 02:40 PM
  6. rawllw's Avatar
    I don't usually step into these types of threads but it seems like the time put into this debate was worth the price of more than one latte.........
    06-09-12 02:47 PM
  7. Vijik's Avatar
    So RIM lied when it told me to contact the developer because the problem was with the theme? You're telling the truth when you tell me the problem was RIM, not the developer? I'm a consumer. I don't have time to deal with this bs, and I don't even care if it was RIM's fault (not that I believe it was). As far as I'm concerned, RIM did right by me and refunded the money for a defective product, installation, delivery, whatever. Ultimately, it's not really my problem whose fault it is. But you seem to blame me because I "insulted" some developer (or developers in the aggregate). I'm going by what RIM initially told me: contact the developer; the problem is with the theme. I told RIM no, I'm too busy for that; give me a refund.
    2 days ago, I submitted a new version (6) of my app on App World.
    App World, for some reason tells the users that they can download version 6 of my app, but when users download it, they get version 5 of my app, a version that doesn't work with the key for version 6.
    App World tells customers to contact me, and I have spent 2 full days, last night until 3 AM, to answer customers emails and provide a work around to solve the mess App World has created.

    The theme developer here says that it is App World who has messed it up for you, and I, based on my VERY recent experience could think that he might be right.

    Regardless, nothing gives you the rights to call that theme crap unless you are dead sure it is the theme that has problem.
    06-09-12 03:05 PM
  8. Rwil85's Avatar
    I don't usually step into these types of threads but it seems like the time put into this debate was worth the price of more than one latte.........
    don't feed the trolls.
    06-09-12 03:10 PM
  9. Tõnis's Avatar
    2 days ago, I submitted a new version (6) of my app on App World.
    App World, for some reason tells the users that they can download version 6 of my app, but when users download it, they get version 5 of my app, a version that doesn't work with the key for version 6.
    App World tells customers to contact me, and I have spent 2 full days, last night until 3 AM, to answer customers emails and provide a work around to solve the mess App World has created.

    The theme developer here says that it is App World who has messed it up for you, and I, based on my VERY recent experience could think that he might be right.

    Regardless, nothing gives you the rights to call that theme crap unless you are dead sure it is the theme that has problem.
    I think there's a misunderstanding here. The op is not the developer whose product I bought from AppWorld. That was someone else. I've never heard from the developer whose theme I bought even after sending an email. I'm sorry you're having trouble with RIM making messes with different versions of your app. It seems you should confront RIM, because you shouldn't have to clean up its messes. My position is I don't care whose mess it is. Just don't put me, as the consumer, in the middle of it.
    06-09-12 03:11 PM
  10. Vijik's Avatar
    I think there's a misunderstanding here. The op is not the developer whose product I bought from AppWorld. That was someone else. I've never heard from the developer whose theme I bought even after sending an email.
    Somehow I managed to think that one of the posts on previous pages was from the theme developer. Sorry for that.

    I'm sorry you're having trouble with RIM making messes with different versions of your app. It seems you should confront RIM, because you shouldn't have to clean up its messes.
    The point is that App World, in my app's case where it is clearly App World failure, tells customers the same thing that they told you: Contact Developer.

    They don't say that it is their fault. The same thing might have been the case in your case.

    My position is I don't care whose mess it is.
    When you write something like the one below you should care.

    I recently took money back from a developer whose app didn't work. See my UPDATE in this topic:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...-buyer-727671/

    I won't be kissing any developers a$$es when their crap doesn't work.
    Just don't put me, as the consumer, in the middle of it.
    Don't put the developer in the middle either unless you know it is their fault.
    f0xx386 likes this.
    06-09-12 04:01 PM
  11. 312's Avatar
    While it does suck to have issues with App World, it IS nice to know other devs have them as well, and it's also nice to see the epitome of an irrational end user make a fool of himself in a public forum.
    06-09-12 04:25 PM
  12. Tõnis's Avatar
    Somehow I managed to think that one of the posts on previous pages was from the theme developer. Sorry for that.
    No problem at all. I was just participating in the discussion, but I can see how it might have become confusing.

    The point is that App World, in my app's case where it is clearly App World failure, tells customers the same thing that they told you: Contact Developer.

    They don't say that it is their fault. The same thing might have been the case in your case.
    Yes, this is not ideal. It seems there should be some kind of a channel for developers to remedy these situations, like a concierge desk or hotline for developers to get stuff like this remedied at RIM. It's ridiculous that it's just a pass-the-buck scenario. I guess the good thing in my situation is no developer was made especially busy with it. I made RIM busy.

    When you write something like the one below you should care.

    Don't put the developer in the middle either unless you know it is their fault.
    What I wrote there was just a reply to the op's first post in the topic. His stance toward the consumer came across as "I didn't like the tone of his email so I won't be very enthusiastic about fixing his problem." The consumer's email he shared didn't look that bad to me. I mean, it wasn't tactful (the part about disputing the credit card charge), but it appeared to be written by a non-native English speaker, and the jest of it was clearly "The app I bought doesn't work. Please fix it or give me a refund." That would have been more tactful. As for my own rhetoric in the other topic, I guess the tone of it was at the opposite end of the spectrum from the op's position in his first post. Both my posts and his posts could have been expressed better.
    Last edited by Tõnis; 06-09-12 at 04:42 PM.
    06-09-12 04:39 PM
  13. 3Dee's Avatar
    I think perhaps the mods should step in here, seems to all a bit unseemly (and was from the start to be honest). One to close?
    06-09-12 05:02 PM
  14. 312's Avatar
    I think perhaps the mods should step in here, seems to all a bit unseemly (and was from the start to be honest). One to close?
    Quite the contrary. These issues with people thinking they're owed the World needs to be addressed. If you surpress my God given right to freedom of speech and opinion on this issue, you're just making it ok for people to act barbaric.
    06-09-12 05:24 PM
  15. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    I can agree with the OP's underlying point that civility has been lost, but IMO, the OP's attitude over what doesn't seem to me like that big of an "insult" or "threat" is actually more offensive.

    The mature way to handle it would have been to immediately refund the customer. The time spent ranting about it here cost more than 2.50. And airing dirty laundry in public is never a good business move. What it basically says to me is that the dev will only help the person who phrases his request to his liking. And that also they might be a little too thin-skinned for customer service.

    If you bought a product and got a little frustrated with trying to get it to work and when you went back to the store and said "help me get this to work or give me my money back" and they said "Not until you ask nicely" how would you feel? How often would you shop there again? I'm glad I got a warning in this case before I shopped.
    bounce007 and f0xx386 like this.
    06-09-12 05:25 PM
  16. 312's Avatar
    1st of all, developers can't "refund payments". This is an App World issue.

    2nd, I neglected to post the rest of this persons threatening and over the top emails. I thought I'd need only to post the original and the point would have been made.
    06-09-12 05:41 PM
  17. SCrid2000's Avatar
    I wish Devs could just refund a payment. While I do occasionally refund a payment via paypal, I lose 30% of the purchase price when I do (RIM's cut).
    I agree that, while most people have been quite pleasant to deal with, there is the occasional jack off who's parents probably should have taught them some manners.
    06-17-12 08:13 PM
  18. EveryApp Mobile's Avatar
    I wish Devs could just refund a payment. While I do occasionally refund a payment via paypal, I lose 30% of the purchase price when I do (RIM's cut).
    I agree that, while most people have been quite pleasant to deal with, there is the occasional jack off who's parents probably should have taught them some manners.
    The AppWorld system is flawed.....plain and simple.


    The best emails are the ones like : " I run a multi-million company and will sue you!" . I usually want to reply with ..." Are you running a multi-million company while asking questions like that?" ( It was a really stupid question the person asked )
    Last edited by EveryApp Mobile; 06-17-12 at 10:09 PM.
    06-17-12 09:45 PM
  19. bounce007's Avatar
    I can agree with the OP's underlying point that civility has been lost, but IMO, the OP's attitude over what doesn't seem to me like that big of an "insult" or "threat" is actually more offensive.

    The mature way to handle it would have been to immediately refund the customer. The time spent ranting about it here cost more than 2.50. And airing dirty laundry in public is never a good business move. What it basically says to me is that the dev will only help the person who phrases his request to his liking. And that also they might be a little too thin-skinned for customer service.

    If you bought a product and got a little frustrated with trying to get it to work and when you went back to the store and said "help me get this to work or give me my money back" and they said "Not until you ask nicely" how would you feel? How often would you shop there again? I'm glad I got a warning in this case before I shopped.
    In agreement. I'm glad I read this thread. lol
    06-19-12 06:53 AM
  20. xandermac's Avatar
    1st of all, developers can't "refund payments". This is an App World issue.

    2nd, I neglected to post the rest of this persons threatening and over the top emails. I thought I'd need only to post the original and the point would have been made.
    The user in question claims that you deleted his appworld review, is this true?


    I would say you have performed quite pooly.

    #1, you appear to have a flawed app
    #2, you personally attacked a customer
    #3, you posted personal information of a customer on a public forum (That's the customers name in the AppWorld generated report that you posted, I guarantee this violates your developer agreement).
    #4, you are possibly manipulating the rating of your app
    #5, you offered no satisfactory resolution to the customer, you have infact made a decision NOT to help him. His claim isn't fraudlent based on that decision alone so be careful what you post publicly.

    Remind me why I or anyone should purchase your products?

    EDIT: I checked AppWorld and the customers review isn't there. It's possible that he didn't post a review but highly unlikely considering he took the time to start a thread about this very developer in the General Discussion forum. I'm inclined to jump to the conclusion that the Developer did indeed delete the review to manipulate his app rating. If this is true it shows a complete lack of ethics and makes me wonder how many other reviews he has deleted, it's curious that all his apps only have 5 star reviews. Whats worse is his attitude in this thread, absolute disdain for the customer.
    Last edited by xandermac; 06-19-12 at 10:31 AM.
    06-19-12 08:38 AM
  21. louzer's Avatar
    I think that the real solution for all of this would be to allow the developer to reply to a specific rating/review. This is how eBay deals with negative feedback. This way, potential customers can get a better feel for the accuracy of reviews.

    In terms of developers deleting reviews, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Developers can not directly delete reviews. They mark the reviews for deletion and then App World reviews the request and either deletes the review or doesn't (based on their assessment of the situation). This needs to stay in place because sometimes reviews are nothing but swearing or rants that don't help identify what the problem is.

    Finally, I as a developer, have paid for a few apps that do not do what they say they should. I always start the process by communicating in a civil manner to express my problems. I find that it's much smoother to do this instead of complaining. But that's just me.

    The bigger problem here is that App World is treated as an isolated situation. Do these problems not exist in Apple's app store or in Google Play? People in this forum complain that there aren't enough apps or that Android and iOS apps don't exist in App World. A developer has to assess if it's worth their time to do the port/development. Given the shrinking size of the BB user base, it doesn't help entice developers to see posts like this.

    I enjoy developing for BB, but if I were a developer looking at this from the outside, I might decide that it's not worth it. I'm not telling people to throw away money for apps that don't work. I'm just saying that apps are different than a generic retail experience where the 'customer is always right'. For large development organizations, this might be true. But for a small Craig's List app that someone decides to invest time, resources, and money for development tools into, at least give them the benefit of the doubt by asking nicely at first. Be reasonable and make App World a place that developers want to submit apps to.

    ***UPDATE***
    The more I think about it the more disturbing this situation is for both customers and developers. When you buy a product from a store and have an issue with it, the first thing a customer does is to deal with customer service for the store. The store makes the decision as to how to deal with the customer. They ask what's wrong and try to rectify the situation. They might recommend that you deal directly with the manufacturer based on warantee, or they might issue you an exchange or a refund. If they issue a refund, they might try to recoup the money directly from the manufacturer or simply to eat the cost of the refund for the sake of good will.

    In the case of App World, the problem is that there is no clear definition of the appropriate communication so people tend to notify both App World as well as the developer.

    I'd propose a change to App World which would allow developers to reply to feedback. But also, and more importantly, App World should provide a contact form (only for people who have purchased an app) to specify their problem and have that message sent both to App World and to the developer. The form should have, as required fields, the app's version, the device the app has been downloaded to, and the current OS that the device is running. These three items can be critical to troubleshooting and are often neglected when contacting a developer.

    If the process were a little better defined, the feedback loop could be tighter, and maybe there wouldn't be as many disgruntled users as there seems to be.
    Last edited by louzer; 06-19-12 at 12:20 PM.
    06-19-12 12:01 PM
  22. 312's Avatar
    Remind me why I or anyone should purchase your products?
    I'd actually prefer if you didn't.
    06-19-12 01:49 PM
  23. Chrysalis1156's Avatar
    So what are we supposed to do if we have a problem with an app (in my case, since an update, it's throwing uncaught exceptions & making my bb reboot), write a nice email to the developer outlining the issue and giving all pertinent info, don't post a nasty review in AppWorld, but are completely ignored? Just take the hit and don't buy from that developer again? Most developers have been very responsive but there are some out there that don't seem to give a flip after they have your money. I'd just like to be acknowledged as a customer. Grrrr.
    wolfee48 likes this.
    06-19-12 02:02 PM
  24. 312's Avatar
    So what are we supposed to do if we have a problem with an app (in my case, since an update, it's throwing uncaught exceptions & making my bb reboot), write a nice email to the developer outlining the issue and giving all pertinent info, don't post a nasty review in AppWorld, but are completely ignored? Just take the hit and don't buy from that developer again? Most developers have been very responsive but there are some out there that don't seem to give a flip after they have your money. I'd just like to be acknowledged as a customer. Grrrr.
    If I were encountering an issue, this is what I'd do:

    -Contact the developer
    -If no response is given within 24 hours, contact once again
    -If no response is given, contact App World requesting a refund
    -If you feel obligated, leave an honest review stating your issue and what you tried to do to get it resolved

    If you're completely ignored, it's justifiable to leave an honest (negative if need be) review and request your money back. But don't expect a response from a developer instantly. The other day I had a customer write a support ticket at 8AM my time and then because I didn't respond instantly, left a negative review 2 hours later saying "support is non-existent". Really?? I don't even wake up until at least noon.

    **Side note** Sometimes "uncaught exception" is because the app is using the BBM SDK and you don't have the latest version of BBM installed. Try that, see if it helps.
    06-19-12 02:17 PM
  25. bounce007's Avatar
    I'd actually prefer if you didn't.
    Is this guy serious?
    06-19-12 04:54 PM
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