[Invictus0]

Again, WHAT HE SHOWED appeared to be SHUTTER BLUR (that is, camera movement such that the resolving power of the imager exceeds the movement of the image on the sensor during the time the shutter is open.) It was NOT an error in focusing (which would produce SOME part of the image in-focus -- this is known as "back focus" or "front focus" in the camera world and is exactly what it sounds like) AND since he got crisp photos outside in higher light conditions we know the lens isn't defective either (a lens doesn't produce sharp images in one light condition and blurry ones in others! That's not physically possible.)

I don't care how many other reviews he's done or what his alleged pedigree is. As someone who has been taking pictures in various contexts, including in some cases professionally, since the 1970s back when film was all there was, it took me just seconds to conclude what was *likely* going on in his examples -- camera shake coupled with a too-slow shutter speed.

Now this could EASILY be a bad set of default parameters in the camera app (that is, instead of popping up the ISO a notch and thus allowing a faster shutter, it inappropriately chooses a slower ISO and shutter, resulting in shake-induced blur in low-light conditions) but that doesn't make the camera "inferior", ESPECIALLY since you can select that in the BlackBerry camera app if you so choose. There's also evidence of an inappropriate ISO selection in the low-light performance tests generally; they're under-exposed, and I very much doubt the camera is out of ISO range since there's no evidence of heavy grain (I note that in my testing the KeyONE was able to resolve quite nicely when my bare eyes were barely able to, but the grain at that low light level was unacceptable for anything but social media quickies.)

Of course HAD HE BOTHERED TO LOOK at the EXIF data in the files what was going on could be easily determined, and then he could have spoken to the ACTUAL ISSUE. Instead we got a dissing born out of lack of knowledge. If this is because he doesn't understand how cameras work then it's plain old-fashioned worthless. If he DOES and intentionally refused to look then it's worse.

That just makes the issue even worse; why would BlackBerry Mobile have ANY affiliation or invite ANY employee of Mobile Nations to ANY of its events if they're going to run into this sort of "reporting" by either unskilled or worse, BIASED people?

It's not a journalist or consumers job to do QA for an OEM, you're going into this with the impression that everyone who is having issues with the Motion's camera is doing something wrong. If a phone can't take decent pictures out of the box and requires a user to mess around with manual controls for an "ok" picture then it either has a problem or a mediocre camera. Software updates can certainly improve the Motion's camera but the statement Mr Mobile received seems to imply the phone has a different sensor altogether from the Keyone. Even bla1ze is saying this after his tests,

https://forums.crackberry.com/blackb...eyone-1131549/

If you want to do a hands on before you form your own conclusion that's perfectly fine and understandable, but there's no reason to believe everyone is making the same mistakes. For all we know, the Motion could have a better camera sensor than the Keyone and it just needs a software update to shine.

[tickerguy]

I DO NOT NEED to have one in-hand to have a VERY good idea of what Mr. Motion and Blaze have seen -- the only plausible explanation is that the blur is caused by camera motion since it (1) is across the entire frame [this excludes a focusing problem] and (2) it is NOT present in higher lighting conditions [this excludes a LENS problem.]

To conclude that it doesn't have the same sensor as the KeyOne without any evidence being examined whatsoever is ridiculous. An examination of the EXIF data will show whether the dimensions are exactly the same between the two cameras and will also materially narrow the range of potential sensors in the marketplace today -- quite-possibly to exactly ONE! That requires mere seconds to do; to make such a proclamation without doing so is an allegation bereft of evidence.

I agree that if the software's ISO calibration is such that a "casual consumer" would be required to play with it to get "sharp enough" images that could be seen as a fairly serious problem (and need fixing) but again, that's not the camera sensor. Then again this sort of election in "full auto" mode is fairly subjective.

The reason is that boosting ISO also boosts noise. Small-sensor devices (those in phone cameras) are far more sensitive to this than large (E.g. dSLR) sensors. I can run ISOs in my Canon 5d3 with perfectly acceptable results (provided you don't intend to make large prints out of the images) that you'd not even CONSIDER in a cellphone camera. As as result there's a fair bit of debate (and a very reasonable debate at that) on exactly how still the user can be expected to hold said device.

Getting this "wrong" for a given target market is pretty easy. IMHO all small-sensor, mostly-automatic-used cameras (in other words, other than dSLRs!) probably OUGHT TO ask on first use "please categorize yourself between 'shaky hands', 'reasonably-steady hands' and 'steely-eyed-sniper hands'" and then set the ISO acceleration point accordingly. :-)

But, of course they don't, which means they get it wrong for some users in every case. Some users get poor low-light exposure performance and some users get blurry images where they would otherwise get sharp ones, but with somewhat more image noise. For "more advanced" users they should expose a "minimum shutter speed" setpoint which the user can customize, at which point ISO will be ramped instead -- noise be damned (The "what sort of hands do you have" question is just a shortcut to that with three presets...) There ARE a few cameras in the "prosumer" market that have such a setting, but surprisingly few -- even my Canon M6 doesn't in "full auto" mode (which by the way I like a LOT for what it is in the size and mass space it occupies), and IMHO it should.

Now maybe it's true that TCL really did cheapen the camera sensor. But the evidence thus far doesn't support that conclusion in any way, and there's a heck of a difference between highlighting a probable software issue (easily fixed, and in any event able to be worked around by the user in the meantime) and a hardware decision that is impossible to fix.

One is an annoyance while for many users the other is an immediate and permanent disqualifying defect.

[Invictus0]

I DO NOT NEED to have one in-hand to have a VERY good idea of what Mr. Motion and Blaze have seen -- the only plausible explanation is that the blur is caused by camera motion since it (1) is across the entire frame [this excludes a focusing problem] and (2) it is NOT present in higher lighting conditions [this excludes a LENS problem.]

To conclude that it doesn't have the same sensor as the KeyOne without any evidence being examined whatsoever is ridiculous. An examination of the EXIF data will show whether the dimensions are exactly the same between the two cameras and will also materially narrow the range of potential sensors in the marketplace today -- quite-possibly to exactly ONE! That requires mere seconds to do; to make such a proclamation without doing so is an allegation bereft of evidence.

I agree that if the software's ISO calibration is such that a "casual consumer" would be required to play with it to get "sharp enough" images that could be seen as a fairly serious problem (and need fixing) but again, that's not the camera sensor. Then again this sort of election in "full auto" mode is fairly subjective.

The reason is that boosting ISO also boosts noise. Small-sensor devices (those in phone cameras) are far more sensitive to this than large (E.g. dSLR) sensors. I can run ISOs in my Canon 5d3 with perfectly acceptable results (provided you don't intend to make large prints out of the images) that you'd not even CONSIDER in a cellphone camera. As as result there's a fair bit of debate (and a very reasonable debate at that) on exactly how still the user can be expected to hold said device.

Getting this "wrong" for a given target market is pretty easy. IMHO all small-sensor, mostly-automatic-used cameras (in other words, other than dSLRs!) probably OUGHT TO ask on first use "please categorize yourself between 'shaky hands', 'reasonably-steady hands' and 'steely-eyed-sniper hands'" and then set the ISO acceleration point accordingly. :-)

But, of course they don't, which means they get it wrong for some users in every case. Some users get poor low-light exposure performance and some users get blurry images where they would otherwise get sharp ones, but with somewhat more image noise. For "more advanced" users they should expose a "minimum shutter speed" setpoint which the user can customize, at which point ISO will be ramped instead -- noise be damned (The "what sort of hands do you have" question is just a shortcut to that with three presets...) There ARE a few cameras in the "prosumer" market that have such a setting, but surprisingly few -- even my Canon M6 doesn't in "full auto" mode (which by the way I like a LOT for what it is in the size and mass space it occupies), and IMHO it should.

Now maybe it's true that TCL really did cheapen the camera sensor. But the evidence thus far doesn't support that conclusion in any way, and there's a heck of a difference between highlighting a probable software issue (easily fixed, and in any event able to be worked around by the user in the meantime) and a hardware decision that is impossible to fix.

One is an annoyance while for many users the other is an immediate and permanent disqualifying defect.

bla1ze and the other users in the thread I linked to above haven't had much luck figuring out which sensor is being used in the Motion. As Mr Mobile mentioned in the video, if the Motion has the same sensor as the Keyone why wouldn't BlackBerry Mobile just say that when he asked?

If you just need an image from both cameras though you should ask in that thread, I'm sure someone would be happy to provide them if it gets us an answer.

[Leatherfacez10]

Tickerguy, chill dude. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, qualified or not. Therefore, as the OP of this thread, and therefore also having both phones in my possession I am uniquely qualified to make my own observations and assertions. I hardly consider myself a paragon of influence or popularity that I could commit obvious journalistic bankruptcy. However, you make a flawed assumption in your written rant that I know nothing about manipulating a camera. That assumption is WAY off. I am no Pro, but am hardly a newbie in the hobby.

However, after playing with all settings, wiping the phone, adjusting the settings again, and trying again, there has been no improvement. For reference of how the image should look, see attached image with the KEYone. You will know from looking which is Motion and which is KEYone.

Therefore, one must correctly assume one of three things:
1) the software is not optimized (it took months of updates for us Priv pioneers to get a great shot from that awesome camera)
2) the camera is not the same as or lower end than the KEYone and therefore quality is not going to be the same
3) the camera on my unit is defective

With that, I have requested a replacement unit to eliminate point number 3. I have reached out to BlackBerry Support to determine whether a fix is in the works to deal with point number 1. And as for point number 2 well, I have no plans to tear down a motion so that will have to wait.

The replacement phone arrives in 3 days, so I will keep you all posted.

Otherwise the Motion is a brilliant device and the most premium all screen BlackBerry I have ever held and among the best among flagship phones. Priv had lots and lots of hiccups when we first got her on day 1 and I kept it for 2 years until KEYone came into my life. Motion will require a tad of patience once again that I am more than happy to give. So stand by and stay tuned.

[Leatherfacez10]

KEYone image. Hehehe. And note that KEYone had far far less light than Motion did. KEYone exceeds my expectations every time. We'll done SONY! Well done TCL!

[jagrlover]

I'm not an expert, but why don't you take a picture with the KEYone and a picture with the Motion in the exact same conditions, then compare them. Doesn't the fact that the lighting changes from one picture to the other render it an unfair comparison?

[tickerguy]

Put those somewhere as original files that I can download and inspect. PM me the links if you don't want them out in the wild.

It's trivially easy for me to figure out what's going on WITH the original images. With forum-compressed and damaged ones there's no chance of being able to do anything other than guessing. I would PREFER back-to-back shots in as close to identical lighting and subject as can reasonably be arranged (since otherwise it's not a fair comparison to start with), but that's not absolutely necessary. What IS necessary is the files as they come off the device without alternation, compression and similar and that one you're complaining about show the defects.

But nonetheless if you want a FAIR comparison then they need to be as close to identical shots as can reasonably be arranged. That shouldn't be hard; I've done a bunch of those sorts of comparisons before between phones and even phones and my dSLRs.

[ray689]

I'm not disputing the OP but those two photos aren't the exact same. either one is zoomed or was taken closer then the other.

[tickerguy]

Just give me links to undoctored, un-zoomed originals shot from the same place at the same time.

It's not that hard. A few minutes of work and it will be sorted and blame placed where it belongs.

[jagrlover]

Just give me links to undoctored, un-zoomed originals shot from the same place at the same time.

It's not that hard. A few minutes of work and it will be sorted and blame placed where it belongs.

Probably won't happen. I hope it does though.

[dom7]

tickerguy is just trying to help out. I appreciate it because I want to know how to use my camera on my Motion such that I can maximize quality. I agree that this can be related to "default". configuration or how it's collaborated for " auto" which is indicative of software and not sensor, potentially

[Doityourself]

blackberry are pathetic. even a Nokia 7210 has a half decent camera. no point sugar coating it! my keyone black edition camera was p*ss poor ! and the motion will only be worse! I'm f*cking back off to iPhone. give up with this crap.bb hub good, BlackBerry swipe keyboard good; rest is crap. can easily get a Samsung with blackberry hub and keyboard.

[Leatherfacez10]

Alright. Going to PM you shortly. I want to hear your analysis and get to the bottom of this.

Bizarrely, the Motion could not focus on the Christmas tree on its own. I had to go manual and manipulate every setting to get it to focus. Keyone quickly and easily focused rapidly.

I will post pics here anyway for all to see. But let's wait for Tickerguys analysis.

[Leatherfacez10]

KEYone image.

[Leatherfacez10]

KEYone Image - this is exactly correct.

[Leatherfacez10]

Motion Image.

[Leatherfacez10]

Motion Image - the whiter portions are missing and far too green and dark.

[Leatherfacez10]

KEYone Image - Christmas tree is fairly well duplicated. This is pure auto setting.

[Leatherfacez10]

Motion Image - same auto setting. It simply could not find and focus on the tree and was blurry over and over again.

[Leatherfacez10]

KEYone Image - some noise in this image, but still crisp and clear.

[Leatherfacez10]

Motion Image - very soft and way over exposed. The KeyOne has realistic lighting. Again on auto for this picture.

[Doityourself]

my god this is horrific! even my keyone struggled to focus. can't just blame android. the hardware is pants! no lie my iPhone 6 images came out sharper than the keyone black and motion. I was super excited for the motion for a daily driver and was gonna buy one for £399. no thanks now !

[Leatherfacez10]

blackberry are pathetic. even a Nokia 7210 has a half decent camera. no point sugar coating it! my keyone black edition camera was p*ss poor ! and the motion will only be worse! I'm f*cking back off to iPhone. give up with this crap.bb hub good, BlackBerry swipe keyboard good; rest is crap. can easily get a Samsung with blackberry hub and keyboard.

Okay you can leave the conversation as you are totally BS'ing here. My KEYone Black Edition takes sensational pictures under the most demanding conditions. These are very low light shots to challenge these phones. I have an Galaxy S8 and I assure you it will do absolutely no better. For fun, I may upload one shortly.

[Doityourself]

mate you are talking crap. keyone black images were poor. hence why I got rid. nothing compares to iPhone pics. period.

[Doityourself]

annoys me there are so many BlackBerry freedom fighters on here. what's next? the people starting all the blurry camera threads all talking BS? lmao