10-13-17 12:36 AM
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  1. A Noise Annoys's Avatar
    ....*and NO the Amazon app does NOT disappear if I remove the simcard. So, much to my chagrin... no evidence to support the anti-carrier tinfoil hat rant either...
    No tin foil hat conspiracy here, just a suggestion to see if it would clear the app and nothing more.


    Posted via CB10
    10-11-17 07:07 PM
  2. panopticon's Avatar
    No tin foil hat conspiracy here, just a suggestion to see if it would clear the app and nothing more.


    Posted via CB10
    Not you, the other guy. Maybe he is just trying to be funny, not sure. Lol.
    Thanks though, I did try your suggestion just in case.
    10-11-17 07:13 PM
  3. tickerguy's Avatar
    No; I find it not-amusing at all that there's a hard-loaded app on the device that wants usage access. The good news is that it can be shut off, but that find led me to (again) put my DTEK60 under my "watch all traffic" regime on my test network again to see if anything suspicious was going on, because it is very possible on Android to burn apps into the system that do not show up in the application list and thus can't be disabled or removed.

    I didn't find anything -- but your discovery now means that I can't take as a given that there won't be on future loads from BlackBerry, and I will be checking with each new patch level release.
    10-12-17 06:57 AM
  4. panopticon's Avatar
    No; I find it not-amusing at all that there's a hard-loaded app on the device that wants usage access. The good news is that it can be shut off, but that find led me to (again) put my DTEK60 under my "watch all traffic" regime on my test network again to see if anything suspicious was going on, because it is very possible on Android to burn apps into the system that do not show up in the application list and thus can't be disabled or removed.

    I didn't find anything -- but your discovery now means that I can't take as a given that there won't be on future loads from BlackBerry, and I will be checking with each new patch level release.
    Sounds like you work for BlackBerry then (I am assuming this is not a hobby of yours). Well that explains a lot...Lol.

    Anyway, no one else has chimed in on this yet so maybe once a few more people actually own one of these, we may get some better input. I would think (hope?) it would be relatively easy for you to obtain information such as which apps come preloaded on a BlackBerry (branded) device? Not sure why finding this out sounds more like a science experiment or a crime scene investigation?

    The only other way I can think of this app *could have* ended up on my K1 BE is via the Android setup process. I was migrating over from a carrier locked Samsung S7 Edge. That device did have the 'Amazon' app, but I have no idea if it was carrier-specific or native to the device. Is it possible it could have transferred over to my K1 via NFC (I did the option where you tap the phone to setup from your old device) and keep its permissions intact? If so, that would be the only carrier app (if it actually was on to begin with) that carried itself over and could not be removed. I also did a factory reset since the initial install, and the Amazon app is still there. As it seems the simcard has been ruled out, would a factory reset not at least have put the Amazon app into my Playstore library, since I never actually chose to install it (that is usually what happens with device-specific apps after you switch devices).

    Anyway, it seems to me some further investigation is required to determine whether or not this app is actually part of the black edition OS build or not. If necessary I would be open to flashing with an autoloader to get rid of it...if only for the sake of knowing I have cleaned any other garbage off my K1 that may have transferred without my knowledge or permission. However I don't feel too inclined to do this in the absence of any accurate information on the subject.
    10-12-17 08:48 AM
  5. tickerguy's Avatar
    Sounds like you work for BlackBerry then (I am assuming this is not a hobby of yours). Well that explains a lot...Lol.

    Anyway, no one else has chimed in on this yet so maybe once a few more people actually own one of these, we may get some better input. I would think (hope?) it would be relatively easy for you to obtain information such as which apps come preloaded on a BlackBerry (branded) device? Not sure why finding this out sounds more like a science experiment or a crime scene investigation?

    The only other way I can think of this app *could have* ended up on my K1 BE is via the Android setup process. I was migrating over from a carrier locked Samsung S7 Edge. That device did have the 'Amazon' app, but I have no idea if it was carrier-specific or native to the device. Is it possible it could have transferred over to my K1 via NFC (I did the option where you tap the phone to setup from your old device) and keep its permissions intact? If so, that would be the only carrier app (if it actually was on to begin with) that carried itself over and could not be removed. I also did a factory reset since the initial install, and the Amazon app is still there. As it seems the simcard has been ruled out, would a factory reset not at least have put the Amazon app into my Playstore library, since I never actually chose to install it (that is usually what happens with device-specific apps after you switch devices).

    Anyway, it seems to me some further investigation is required to determine whether or not this app is actually part of the black edition OS build or not. If necessary I would be open to flashing with an autoloader to get rid of it...if only for the sake of knowing I have cleaned any other garbage off my K1 that may have transferred without my knowledge or permission. However I don't feel too inclined to do this in the absence of any accurate information on the subject.
    Now you accuse me of WORKING for BlackBerry? Uh, no. Never have.

    I'm a former ISP CEO and (today) both a journalist and freelance computer security guy, among a few other things.

    As for whether BlackBerry Mobile stuck that app in the load well, if they did then it's in all of them. Anyone else have a Black Edition KeyONE around here?
    10-12-17 09:14 AM
  6. JREwing's Avatar
    The only way you bought a G5s for that money is if you got the "Amazon lockscreen ad" version. Oh, and that's the de-contented one too (3Gb ram, not 4.)

    It also has a camera many people complain about, a battery 30% smaller than the Motion, and no NFC, which means no touch-payments -- ever.

    And of course no security enhancements.

    So was it cheaper? Sure. You let Spamazon advertise to you and have all your location data, forever (gee, you sold THAT cheaply.) You got a device with a smaller battery, missing a key capability in today's marketplace (touch payments) and with no security enhancements. It also has no formal water resistance rating (it does have a "hygrophobic coating" on its board, which is good for something -- mostly condensation -- and almost-certainly will not save you if the phone gets immersed, even momentarily.

    Yes, you saved money, but how much did you "save" when you gave away your data? Hmmm.... good question, but this much is certain: You haven't accounted for all the costs.

    BTW, the "fully contented" version of that device is $299, which is almost 50% more than you paid -- and it still doesn't have the larger battery, OS hardening, water resistance or NFC. I looked at that device in detail as a potential alternative to the Motion, but for my money the lack of the larger battery and NFC were instant deal-breakers.
    I pre-ordered it on the Motorola Website. The pre-order price was $229. I got a 10% Uniday's education discount since I have an .edu email address, which brought the device down to $209. It's not an Amazon ad featured device. It is a fantastic device with no bloatware.
    10-12-17 09:44 AM
  7. panopticon's Avatar
    Now you accuse me of WORKING for BlackBerry? Uh, no. Never have.

    I'm a former ISP CEO and (today) both a journalist and freelance computer security guy, among a few other things.

    As for whether BlackBerry Mobile stuck that app in the load well, if they did then it's in all of them. Anyone else have a Black Edition KeyONE around here?
    Accusation? Lol. Is it my fault to speak as if you are an expert in BlackBerry OS builds? There must be heaps of people who go around making such proclamations, how naive of me. I beg your pardon, good Sir.

    Waiting patiently to see if anyone here DOES have any useful information to share on this topic...
    10-12-17 09:45 AM
  8. JREwing's Avatar
    Me thinks your math be incorrect.
    No, my math is correct. I pre-ordered it off the Motorola website. The pre-order price was $229. I got a 10% discount through Uniday's since I have an .edu address, which brought the price to $209 and free shipping.
    Someone asked if it was an "Amazon" ad-featured device. The answer is no. It's a beautiful unlocked device which I'm enjoying right now.
    10-12-17 09:48 AM
  9. tickerguy's Avatar
    No, my math is correct. I pre-ordered it off the Motorola website. The pre-order price was $229. I got a 10% discount through Uniday's since I have an .edu address, which brought the price to $209 and free shipping.
    Someone asked if it was an "Amazon" ad-featured device. The answer is no. It's a beautiful unlocked device which I'm enjoying right now.
    The price today (which of course is what matters) for the fully-contented device is $299 on Motorola's page. The de-contented one (3Gb RAM, specifically) is cheaper, as it should be.

    The lack of NFC is a deal-breaker for me. Additionally Motorola took the compass out of all their midrange devices (!!!) a couple of years ago, which for many users won't be noticeable -- if your only use case for nav is in a car the only real impact you'll notice is that the nav "drifts" at a light (or otherwise stopped) because the phone can't figure out which way it's pointing, and thus the normal GPS drift that occurs has no means of compensation. Whether this will sufficiently annoy you (or cause you to make wrong turns that are figured out by the nav program only once you're moving again at a reasonable speed) is a trade-off that some people will find perfectly acceptable while others will not.

    If you ever use the device as a nav assistant while walking, however (including in "urban canyons"), or you use it "off-grid" as an actual compass then obviously not having one becomes a material problem.....

    It's not a bad device for the money, but it's simply not in the same class as the Motion; the lack of NFC is particularly galling and an intentional act on Motorola's part to try to force people up-market, considering that the EU model of the same device has it.

    If I didn't have an old Priv as a backup phone I might consider one of the de-contented ones for that purpose (I keep a backup with a zero-cost SIM on a different network in it for various risk-mitigating reasons when I travel) , but since I frequently use NFC to pay for things the lack of that capability would prevent me from considering it as my "daily."
    10-12-17 10:05 AM
  10. krazyatom's Avatar
    It could well be a carrier SIM app. Remove the SIM and see if the app is still there.
    That app was also available in bb10 so I am don't think it's carrier or sim.
    10-12-17 10:40 AM
  11. panopticon's Avatar
    That app was also available in bb10 so I am don't think it's carrier or sim.
    Yes, someone else actually remembers that...thank you. It's nice there is at least one other person on CB who doesn't treat the Amazon app as if it appeared from outer space, Lol. You would think people who knew BB10 inside out would have known better.

    It seems increasingly likely at this point BlackBerry/TCL may have added it back in. Someone else can hopefully confirm whether or not it exists on a clean factory build of the K1 black edition.
    10-12-17 11:11 AM
  12. tickerguy's Avatar
    Different app; BB10 had an Amazon app store app on it since Amazon runs their "own" app store which doesn't require Play Services (BlackBerry intentionally blackballed Google Play on BB10 by adding a shim that registered key API entry points but didn't run, thus preventing you from sideloading the Play components.)
    10-12-17 11:23 AM
  13. panopticon's Avatar
    Different app; BB10 had an Amazon app store app on it since Amazon runs their "own" app store which doesn't require Play Services (BlackBerry intentionally blackballed Google Play on BB10 by adding a shim that registered key API entry points but didn't run, thus preventing you from sideloading the Play components.)
    Well, obviously its not exactly the same app because it was running on BB10. But the one we are discussing is the present day Android equivalent of it, that is for certain.
    10-12-17 11:33 AM
  14. tickerguy's Avatar
    Well, obviously its not exactly the same app because it was running on BB10. But the one we are discussing is the present day Android equivalent of it, that is for certain.
    Disagree.

    If the app you found is for the Amazon Android Appstore then its request for usage permission is not only reasonable it's necessary for it to work as intended (e.g. to inform you of available updates it must know what apps are on the phone, to name one specific instance in which it needs that permission!)

    If it's an Amazon shopping app then it's a different matter entirely; there is utterly no reason (other than spying on you and, for example, if you're looking on WalMart's app for products!) for it to have that permission.

    Further, if never invoked then it never initializes and thus never registers the hooks. Some apps invoke first-time on load and then are persistent on each boot (this depends on what is set in the manifest, among other things; if a listener registers then it obviously starts on boot, etc.)

    So my first question is "exactly what do you have there?" It sounds like you MIGHT have an auxiliary appstore, which is a hell of a different thing than a shopping app.

    An included second app store doesn't push my "you jackasses!" privacy buttons to any material degree since you can either (1) never use it and/or (2) disable it, and other than consume the physical space in the flash memory it's a no-op without your explicit action to use it.
    10-12-17 11:47 AM
  15. krazyatom's Avatar
    Why can't TCL promote Amazon? TCL has many product exclusive to Amazon so they're definitely connected.
    10-12-17 12:03 PM
  16. panopticon's Avatar
    Disagree.

    If the app you found is for the Amazon Android Appstore then its request for usage permission is not only reasonable it's necessary for it to work as intended (e.g. to inform you of available updates it must know what apps are on the phone, to name one specific instance in which it needs that permission!)

    If it's an Amazon shopping app then it's a different matter entirely; there is utterly no reason (other than spying on you and, for example, if you're looking on WalMart's app for products!) for it to have that permission.

    Further, if never invoked then it never initializes and thus never registers the hooks. Some apps invoke first-time on load and then are persistent on each boot (this depends on what is set in the manifest, among other things; if a listener registers then it obviously starts on boot, etc.)

    So my first question is "exactly what do you have there?" It sounds like you MIGHT have an auxiliary appstore, which is a hell of a different thing than a shopping app.

    An included second app store doesn't push my "you jackasses!" privacy buttons to any material degree since you can either (1) never use it and/or (2) disable it, and other than consume the physical space in the flash memory it's a no-op without your explicit action to use it.
    Once again, I am finding your confounding mixture of apparent knowledge and outright ignorance to be downright perplexing.

    Have you ever used any Android devices besides the BlackBerry ones? Because if you have, this would not even be a question. It is not that unique or unusual to see the Amazon app pre-installed on a consumer Android device. I guess it would be logical to assume it can install it's own apps with all those permissions, although I have never bothered trying...obviously I am more interested in disabling it then actually using it. Google Playstore and Play Services require the exact same permissions as you probably know...so if you really have an issue with them don't forget to toggle usage access off for Google Play Services and Playstore. That is, if you actually believe the toggle does anything. Lol.
    10-12-17 12:07 PM
  17. tickerguy's Avatar
    Once again, I am finding your confounding mixture of apparent knowledge and outright ignorance to be downright perplexing.

    Have you ever used any Android devices besides the BlackBerry ones? Because if you have, this would not even be a question. It is not that unique or unusual to see the Amazon app pre-installed on a consumer Android device. I guess it would be logical to assume it can install it's own apps with all those permissions, although I have never bothered trying...obviously I am more interested in disabling it then actually using it. Google Playstore and Play Services require the exact same permissions as you probably know...so if you really have an issue with them don't forget to toggle usage access off for Google Play Services and Playstore. That is, if you actually believe the toggle does anything. Lol.
    Ignorance? Seriously?

    I've used MANY different Android devices; carrier-sold ones are typically full of garbage that you can't get rid of. The reason is that the companies (e.g. Amazon) pay the carrier a fraction of a buck per-device to stick that stuff on there, in the hopes that people will buy something. It's one of the primary reasons to unlock the bootloader on most carrier devices and load a bare Android release on it, in fact. Unfortunately these days doing so tends to cause the sentinel code in things like Android Pay to refuse to run, so you lose things that people really want by taking that step.

    My point is this: There's more than one "Amazon" app. The Amazon appstore is a very different animal indeed than the Amazon shopping application. Screaming "SPYING!!!!" over the appstore is IMHO idiotic if it was preloaded, particularly if it doesn't auto-initialize on boot unless explicitly run and set up, which appears to be the case. It most-certainly was in the case of the specific revision included in BB10, for example, and as a result it didn't torque me off at all being there on those handsets since all it did was consume space in the flash.

    You're protesting and trying to draw an equivalent with what OnePlus got caught doing (or what Amazon does with it's "lockscreen" phones) where no such equivalence exists. In the case of the Amazon appstore, if that's what this is, you have to explicitly start it and set it up before it does anything and in exchange you get something you want (access to the Amazon appstore.) What, exactly, is the problem there?
    10-12-17 12:30 PM
  18. panopticon's Avatar
    Ignorance? Seriously?

    I've used MANY different Android devices; carrier-sold ones are typically full of garbage that you can't get rid of. The reason is that the companies (e.g. Amazon) pay the carrier a fraction of a buck per-device to stick that stuff on there, in the hopes that people will buy something. It's one of the primary reasons to unlock the bootloader on most carrier devices and load a bare Android release on it, in fact. Unfortunately these days doing so tends to cause the sentinel code in things like Android Pay to refuse to run, so you lose things that people really want by taking that step.

    My point is this: There's more than one "Amazon" app. The Amazon appstore is a very different animal indeed than the Amazon shopping application. Screaming "SPYING!!!!" over the appstore is IMHO idiotic if it was preloaded, particularly if it doesn't auto-initialize on boot unless explicitly run and set up, which appears to be the case. It most-certainly was in the case of the specific revision included in BB10, for example, and as a result it didn't torque me off at all being there on those handsets since all it did was consume space in the flash.

    You're protesting and trying to draw an equivalent with what OnePlus got caught doing (or what Amazon does with it's "lockscreen" phones) where no such equivalence exists. In the case of the Amazon appstore, if that's what this is, you have to explicitly start it and set it up before it does anything and in exchange you get something you want (access to the Amazon appstore.) What, exactly, is the problem there?
    Yes, seriously. You already claimed to know better about whether or not it might have been pre-installed on a K1 BE earlier and suggested the Amazon app I posted was not really Amazon or even spyware. You didn't even seem to realize the black edition is not a carrier device to begin with. That fits my definition of ignorance. I think I have been quite clear about this. Is it the same Amazon app as the 'Amazon App Store' you keep taking about? Who knows? I can't find anything called that on Play Store either. So seriously, unless you have a black edition K1 or know someone else who does (you obviously don't take my word for it) then please explain why are you are finding it so exceedingly difficult to accept the possibility that BlackBerry/TCL might have in fact put this Amazon app on the K1 BE, intentionally? I did not post this to spam the forum with misinformation, these are the honest findings from my own personal experience with the device...not self-fulfilling, theoretical non-sense.
    krazyatom likes this.
    10-12-17 01:03 PM
  19. tickerguy's Avatar
    So let me see if I got this right.

    You found an app on the phone.
    You didn't run it, but you did look at what permissions it had.
    From this you claimed that it was spying on you.
    You did not originally disclose that you used NFC to transfer from another device to that one (which incidentally just triggers a tag set back to Google and then back to the new device, which grabs the apps), but knowing how that works I doubt that's how the app got there. That it's unremovable backs that up.

    Ok, I missed your statement (because I didn't read back through the entire thread AGAIN, and that specific post wasn't presented to me as new -- go argue with Mobile Nations about how their system works in that regard) that it was bought unlocked and retail. That's fair.

    The rest is not.

    You have no findings because you don't know what the app does. You haven't started it, seen what it actually looks at (and whether DTEK flags it and, if so, for what) nor have you stuck the device behind a DMZ where you can packet trace everything it sends and receives, taking appropriate steps to try to isolate the alleged spyware and its actions, but you still attempted to brand that app as "spying" and blame BlackBerry Mobile for an allegedly nefarious act.

    You have no evidence for that. There is evidence that it isn't spying and wouldn't be even if you hadn't disabled it, as it's not the shopping app, it doesn't appear to auto-start unless initialized by the user (you've presented no evidence that it does), and if initialized by the user and it's an app-store then what it had requested is reasonable for the function it performs all of which it performs only if you set it up and use it.

    Its not "spying" if I ask for a store to deliver products to me, they do, and they instrument the delivery so they know if I got the product and to keep it current with automatic updates to said product (where said "product" is software I've bought or otherwise asked for.)

    I can shut off parts of the Play Store's permission set (in fact, most of it) as well. I have restricted certain things (such as the Play Store's background data access), mostly to decrease its traffic and consumption of power. However, if I shut off certain permissions then some parts of what I expect to work won't, because I've denied them access. I can entirely disable Google Play Services functionality on the device too, and when I have done that and looked it in fact really is disabled and isn't running, but then nothing that relies on that framework runs properly. As just one example if I shut off "body sensors" from Play Services Android Pay stops working. It apparently expects (quite reasonably so, I'd think) to be able to determine if the phone is in my pocket or in my hand (or at least to take a decent guess at that) before it authorizes a payment. That sounds like a pretty good security feature to keep someone from using a sniffer to try to steal from me when my phone is in my pocket, wouldn't you say? You might call that "spying" but I call it performing the function for which the software was designed and which I explicitly consented to and asked for.

    I have plenty of reasons to be unhappy with the degree of forced bundling that Google has stuck into their frameworks and by doing so basically forced you to leave them turned on in their entirety or other programs you want to work won't, rendering your device app-less. That's the same sort of crap that Microsoft pulled with Windows years ago but it's even more-insidious in Android (and IOS) because at the same time Google has not exposed the ability to shut off permissions on an app-by-app basis among apps that register to use those services. For example I should be able to tell the device not to allow data access at all to an app unless it has focus, and the operating system knows how to do this ("full internet access"), but there is no exposed switch to shut that off, or condition it on the app having focus. I should also be able to do the same thing for any access to the Play Services frameworks. The amusing part is that you can sort of get there if you're not on WiFi because you can restrict background data on cell, but you have to know where to look, and you can also mark specific WiFi networks as "metered" which makes them subject to it. The reason Google doesn't make that easily available (that is, they'd prefer you not do it at all - in a big way!) is that doing so makes ad delivery to you (and location tracking from you back to to momma) impossible on a background basis (before you look at something) and it would also make post-action (e.g. after you switch away from an app) transmission of data "to momma" impossible as well. Thus they don't make it easy and try in fact to stop you from doing it at all for obvious reasons, but it's extraordinarily customer-hostile. It was only plenty of screaming that got the ability to revoke some permissions put in at a user-accessible level originally -- the capability do so had always been in the OS but Google intentionally refused to expose it to users for a very, very long time.

    Nonetheless if you know where to look and what switches to throw you can shut off a whole lot of the data mining -- especially location based -- that otherwise goes on without having too much of an impact on device use.
    Last edited by tickerguy; 10-12-17 at 02:37 PM.
    10-12-17 02:26 PM
  20. panopticon's Avatar
    So let me see if I got this right.

    You found an app on the phone.
    You didn't run it, but you did look at what permissions it had.
    From this you claimed that it was spying on you.
    You did not originally disclose that you used NFC to transfer from another device to that one (which incidentally just triggers a tag set back to Google and then back to the new device, which grabs the apps), but knowing how that works I doubt that's how the app got there. That it's unremovable backs that up.

    Ok, I missed your statement (because I didn't read back through the entire thread AGAIN, and that specific post wasn't presented to me as new -- go argue with Mobile Nations about how their system works in that regard) that it was bought unlocked and retail. That's fair.

    The rest is not.

    You have no findings because you don't know what the app does. You haven't started it, seen what it actually looks at (and whether DTEK flags it and, if so, for what) nor have you stuck the device behind a DMZ where you can packet trace everything it sends and receives, taking appropriate steps to try to isolate the alleged spyware and its actions, but you still attempted to brand that app as "spying" and blame BlackBerry Mobile for an allegedly nefarious act.

    You have no evidence for that. There is evidence that it isn't spying and wouldn't be even if you hadn't disabled it, as it's not the shopping app, it doesn't appear to auto-start unless initialized by the user (you've presented no evidence that it does), and if initialized by the user and it's an app-store then what it had requested is reasonable for the function it performs all of which it performs only if you set it up and use it.

    Its not "spying" if I ask for a store to deliver products to me, they do, and they instrument the delivery so they know if I got the product and to keep it current with automatic updates to said product (where said "product" is software I've bought or otherwise asked for.)

    I can shut off parts of the Play Store's permission set (in fact, most of it) as well. I have restricted certain things (such as the Play Store's background data access), mostly to decrease its traffic and consumption of power. However, if I shut off certain permissions then some parts of what I expect to work won't, because I've denied them access. I can entirely disable Google Play Services functionality on the device too, and when I have done that and looked it in fact really is disabled and isn't running, but then nothing that relies on that framework runs properly. As just one example if I shut off "body sensors" from Play Services Android Pay stops working. It apparently expects (quite reasonably so, I'd think) to be able to determine if the phone is in my pocket or in my hand (or at least to take a decent guess at that) before it authorizes a payment. That sounds like a pretty good security feature to keep someone from using a sniffer to try to steal from me when my phone is in my pocket, wouldn't you say? You might call that "spying" but I call it performing the function for which the software was designed and which I explicitly consented to and asked for.
    Lol, I never said the app was spying on me. You can go debate with someone else, and put words in their mouth...OK?

    Seriously...you need to find another hobby.

    Either way, I've wasted WAY TOO MUCH time already with you on this. I am not here to be toyed with. Go enjoy yourself at someone else's expense.
    10-12-17 02:34 PM
  21. bitek's Avatar
    Do you have a source OP?



    Comparable devices like the ZenFone 3 Zoom sell for around $479 CAD
    The only reason why zenfone costs $479 is because all the bloatware pre-installed on the phone. Clean Asus phones without bloatware are much more expensive. Also Asus phones do not have the same build quality and do not come with the same monthly updates. You really need to look at entire picture.
    10-12-17 09:27 PM
  22. Invictus0's Avatar
    The only reason why zenfone costs $479 is because all the bloatware pre-installed on the phone. Clean Asus phones without bloatware are much more expensive. Also Asus phones do not have the same build quality and do not come with the same monthly updates. You really need to look at entire picture.
    Which apps in particular? The only "bloatware" I've seen on unlocked ZenFone devices is Asus's own apps which isn't any different from bundled apps on BlackBerry device. I haven't heard of any complaints regarding build quality either, they tend to be pretty solid phones.

    Not all BlackBerry devices are getting monthly updates, there are plenty of threads from users on the various BB Android device forums, until that improves or there's transparency on why it happens I don't think it can be considered a selling point.
    10-13-17 12:36 AM
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