[xpxpxpxp]

"It depends on how "equal or better" is defined. Your statement: "I love the design and I need a PKB" would suggest that "equal or better" for you is defined by more than specs."

The point is not how you or I feel about the price but how the consumers in general feel. We now know, without debate, that the Priv was overpriced because it didn't sell very well. I bought it, I love it, I think it is perhaps one of the top phones ever made along with the Passport and the Bold 9900...but the market has voiced it's opinion and it was just too expensive at launch.

[yessuz]

Typical and expected response.. Do you really think you are going to change anyone's mind with all these spec warrior and hate posts?

Like I said we all get it~! Spec warriors are upset. It will take them 1/10th of a second longer to open an app and they will only be able to have 147 tabs open in Chrome instad of the 159 they want to have open 24/7..

We get! We do, honestly..

I see from your response that you avoided the questions so I'll ask again in a simpler manner.

1. Is your spec hate based on prolonged in hands usage of the KEYone?
2. If the hate is based on real world and in hand usage, what was slow and sluggish on the KEYone?
3. What are you doing on a phone that requires higher specs?
4. Do you need to open apps 1/10th of a second faster? If so, why?
5. Why do you need 4GB of RAM on a phone?

No, apparently you do not get it. Lemme answer your questions:
1. nope, not tried it yet. Sporting passport SE and I need a keyboard.
2. NO! IT has perfectly fine specs!
3. It does not require better specs!
4. Nope, we do not need!
5. Nope, we do not need that. It would be nice though, like future proof.

What you miss, apparently, is that SAME SPECCED devices (minus keyboard of course) are being sold twice cheaper.
That is the only gripe.

It's like, you know that you can buy fuel for 2.05, but greedy petrol station owner charges you 4.10 for the same quality and same volume of fuel. Just because he's the only petrol station in the desert.
You do not need better petrol! Or more. All you need is petrol itself. But because of market situation, you are almost forced to overpay twice for the thing.

This is what makes people angry and that's why me and other people say that it is overpriced!




Posted via CB10

[cbvinh]

What you miss, apparently, is that SAME SPECCED devices (minus keyboard of course) are being sold twice cheaper.
That is the only gripe.

Subtracting out the physical keyboard as a spec is ridiculous as it's the main differentiating spec.

It's like, you know that you can buy fuel for 2.05, but greedy petrol station owner charges you 4.10 for the same quality and same volume of fuel. Just because he's the only petrol station in the desert.
You do not need better petrol! Or more. All you need is petrol itself. But because of market situation, you are almost forced to overpay twice for the thing.

This is what makes people angry and that's why me and other people say that it is overpriced!

This is poor analogy. The petrol you need for the car is the same and one is priced higher because of scarcity/remoteness. If you were truly in the desert and needed petrol, you'd be glad the station even existed to offer you petrol at twice the price. How much more difficult was it to get petrol out into the desert for your use? Anyway...

A better analogy is a choice between a sedan and a pickup. Both vehicles have the same spec, just different form factors/configurations. If you want to haul a bunch of stuff, the sedan could do it, but it would take more trips than just using the pickup. If the pickup is twice as expensive, then you would evaluate whether you value your time or your money. The more often you have to haul stuff, the clearer the choice becomes.

[yessuz]

Subtracting out the physical keyboard as a spec is ridiculous as it's the main differentiating spec.



This is poor analogy. The petrol you need for the car is the same and one is priced higher because of scarcity/remoteness. If you were truly in the desert and needed petrol, you'd be glad the station even existed to offer you petrol at twice the price. How much more difficult was it to get petrol out into the desert for your use? Anyway...

A better analogy is a choice between a sedan and a pickup. Both vehicles have the same spec, just different form factors/configurations. If you want to haul a bunch of stuff, the sedan could do it, but it would take more trips than just using the pickup. If the pickup is twice as expensive, then you would evaluate whether you value your time or your money. The more often you have to haul stuff, the clearer the choice becomes.

Well, this was actually very good analogy.
That's precisely the point:

Because you need petrol you still going to buy it. You will not be happy knowing that for the same fuel back at home you'd pay twice less.

Same comes with your sedan and pickup: if you need a pickup - you buy a pickup. But imagine that Yotota Camry sedan would cost You 40.000 dollars, but just because of pickup - they would charge you 80.000 for that. Everything else would be exactly same: trim, color, rims, engine, etc. But just twice, because pickup.

I mean, you still gonna buy it, 'cos you need it. But would still think that such charge is reasonable? I am not really sure about that.

That is the main thing what we are pointing out: there are same thing which cost twice less and we, despite the fact, that many of us will still buy it, we just do not feel that it is fair priced. Hence - overpriced

Posted via CB10

[cbvinh]

Well, this was actually very good analogy.
That's precisely the point:

Because you need petrol you still going to buy it. You will not be happy knowing that for the same fuel back at home you'd pay twice less.

Same comes with your sedan and pickup: if you need a pickup - you buy a pickup. But imagine that Yotota Camry sedan would cost You 40.000 dollars, but just because of pickup - they would charge you 80.000 for that. Everything else would be exactly same: trim, color, rims, engine, etc. But just twice, because pickup.

I mean, you still gonna buy it, 'cos you need it. But would still think that such charge is reasonable? I am not really sure about that.

That is the main thing what we are pointing out: there are same thing which cost twice less and we, despite the fact, that many of us will still buy it, we just do not feel that it is fair priced. Hence - overpriced

It's not the same thing. If your primary work involves hauling things, the pickup will be much more valuable to you, even at twice the price of sedan. If the pickup only allowed you to carry twice the amount as the sedan per trip...

pickup 1 trip, sedan 2 trips
pickup 10 trips, sedan 20 trips
pickup 100 trips, sedan 200 trips
etc.

At some point, the extra time and fuel costs will exceed the initial cost of "twice the price".

If you think you can be more efficient with a physical keyboard, then it's worth your money. If not, then you buy the cheaper slab.

[yessuz]

It's not the same thing. If your primary work involves hauling things, the pickup will be much more valuable to you, even at twice the price of sedan. If the pickup only allowed you to carry twice the amount as the sedan per trip...

pickup 1 trip, sedan 2 trips
pickup 10 trips, sedan 20 trips
pickup 100 trips, sedan 200 trips
etc.

At some point, the extra time and fuel costs will exceed the initial cost of "twice the price".

If you think you can be more efficient with a physical keyboard, then it's worth your money. If not, then you buy the cheaper slab.

Or just be sensible and get sedan + rent a trailer for the fraction of pickup costs for the rest of your life. I mean, if you are not some sort of niche worker / farmer (sorry I am not from us, so you know, pickups do not really make sense in the rest of the world anyway) then 95% of the time, if not more, you drive that overpriced pickup with same empty boot/trunk whatever you call it - empty.

Ok, if you want - do not use pickup. Use sedan vs estate/wagon.
It is always question: the difference I get paying twice - really justifiable? And is It fair to charge you twice?

If you feel that it is fair - well, good for you. For mu understanding it is not fair.

To be honest, it would be REALLY NICE if someone did the teardown of parts and list all the costs for parts (including keyboard) and compared with any other same specced device.

Would the plain and simple - cost of the materials/parts, twice higher than other phone? Kind of doubt.

Sorry but I do not buy all that security thingy.

I mean dtek 60 comes with hi specs (soc and other internals are more expensive than 625) with all the "security" for 412 brittish pounds on Amazon now. Vs 499 what is said for keyone

Looking plain at the parts (discard screen) - chipset, ram, rom etc, 625 should be quite noticeably cheaper, let's say probably 30% cheaper. Because 625 is not 820. There are reasons why 625 is mid range and 820, until 835 is released, is the top spec.

So if they are selling dtek60 at 412, then the costs for the parts itself, should be not more than 200. Probably less. So 625 device, which everyone else is selling for sub 300, should be at 150 or so. This is including standard, commodity-like sourced lcd panel.

So now tell me - is it priced fair? really?
Screen 3:2 vs 16:9 - adds what - 20-30% on top of manufacturing costs in total, compared with 16:9? So let's say with "speshul" screen costs become not 150 but 200.

Keyboard? Less than 100. You said, kickstarter one - 100 usd. But the kickstarter one has crappy sourcing chain, not efficient manufacturing process and on top of that - has to make profit. So in the end of the day, base costs for that keyboard is probably 50$ at max.

So after this deduction we get the cost of KEYone is probably around 200-250 at max.

So 600 usd is fair? Not really.

Imho

Posted via CB10

[cbvinh]

Or just be sensible and get sedan + rent a trailer for the fraction of pickup costs for the rest of your life. I mean, if you are not some sort of niche worker / farmer (sorry I am not from us, so you know, pickups do not really make sense in the rest of the world anyway) then 95% of the time, if not more, you drive that overpriced pickup with same empty boot/trunk whatever you call it - empty.

Ok, if you want - do not use pickup. Use sedan vs estate/wagon.
It is always question: the difference I get paying twice - really justifiable? And is It fair to charge you twice?

The trailer would be the equivalent to having an attachable keyboard? The Kickstarter keyboard attachment for the Moto Z Play is about $100 USD, should it ever be made. The KEYone is $150 USD premium over the Moto Z Play. It's not a huge difference and the KEYone would be a more manageable/sleeker device compared to a Moto Z Play with a keyboard attached.

If you feel that it is fair - well, good for you. For mu understanding it is not fair.

To be honest, it would be REALLY NICE if someone did the teardown of parts and list all the costs for parts (including keyboard) and compared with any other same specced device.

Would the plain and simple - cost of the materials/parts, twice higher than other phone? Kind of doubt.

The cost of raw parts is only part of the picture. You would still need to factor in the cost of parts for the volume produced. The KEYone would have a much more limited production run so parts will be more expensive to acquire.

Sorry but I do not buy all that security thingy.

I mean dtek 60 comes with hi specs (soc and other internals are more expensive than 625) with all the "security" for 412 brittish pounds on Amazon now. Vs 499 what is said for keyone

Looking plain at the parts (discard screen) - chipset, ram, rom etc, 625 should be quite noticeably cheaper, let's say probably 30% cheaper. Because 625 is not 820. There are reasons why 625 is mid range and 820, until 835 is released, is the top spec.

So if they are selling dtek60 at 412, then the costs for the parts itself, should be not more than 200. Probably less. So 625 device, which everyone else is selling for sub 300, should be at 150 or so. This is including standard, commodity-like sourced lcd panel.

So now tell me - is it priced fair? really?
Screen 3:2 vs 16:9 - adds what - 20-30% on top of manufacturing costs in total, compared with 16:9? So let's say with "speshul" screen costs become not 150 but 200.

The DTEK 60 also sells as the Idol 4S with some changes. There are a lot of shared parts that economy of scale lowers the cost of acquiring parts.

Keyboard? Less than 100. You said, kickstarter one - 100 usd. But the kickstarter one has crappy sourcing chain, not efficient manufacturing process and on top of that - has to make profit. So in the end of the day, base costs for that keyboard is probably 50$ at max.

So after this deduction we get the cost of KEYone is probably around 200-250 at max.

So 600 usd is fair? Not really.

Imho

You're speculating that the base cost of the DTEK 60 is about half of the sale price, correct? You're also speculating the KEYone is about $200-$250(max) USD to make? That would put the price at about $400-$500 USD. The price is $549 USD. It's about $50 USD more than what you speculate. That amount could be in the extra cost involved in the lower volume and some extra profit, sure, but it's not outrageous.

[anon(9100201)]

Well blackberry Priv was launched at hefty price tag of $750 while keyone is $549. And compared to keyone, priv is low on specifications. Also blackberry q10 was launched at price greater that $600-650. While keyone is a champ when compared to q10.

Because it is. Just like the PRIV was at launch. Look how that phone bombed

Posted via CB10

[krazyatom]

Bottom line is that TCL will make tons of money, not BlackBerry

Posted via CB10

[keyplusone]

My 2 sons still use they xiaomi mi 3 and Meizu note1 from 3 4 years ago.... Cheap does not mean bad quality, xiaomi is one of the biggest, but they have even more than 50 other local cheaper brands, 2 more years before industry will come back to fair price for the consumers.

IBM sold its hardware division long time ago...

Samsung Galaxy 7 is now at 349$ at AT&T...

There are people out there who wouldn't be caught dead with a phone that your son(s) use, irrespective what savants they might be.

There are legion of women who gladly fork out a premium for NYDJ. And there are men (not to stereotype), who wold likewise do so for a slab of hardware that screams "NYSP".

Then there is the name. As someone who is literate in Chinese, I personally wouldn't be caught dead with a phone with "Meizu" (魅族) on it.

Brandishing a "Meizu" phone at a serious job interview would be akin to showing up with spiky dyed red-blondish hair at a medical school interview (when the dude sporting it is Asian) - by all means do it as it is your inalienable human right. But do so if you couldn't give a r@t's @$$ about the interview.

Have you ever seen an English-speaking (or at least literate) person walking around with phone branded with "happy hooker"? Maybe as a "backup phone" ... lol. Let me know when you find one.

To be sure I am not saying Meizu means "happy hooker". But these two characters definitely project a persona that's frivolous to say the least. The old Shanzhai of yore were far more respectable and even "poetic" - IMHO.

I digress.

BB/TCL will not survive if they want to compete with the Xiaomi/Meizus of this day. Even Xiaomi may not survive long if Huawei/ZTE get hungry enough (hints to that end have bee dropped).

I would have been ecstatic myself if BB10 lives on through the likes of Keyone.

But alas it won't. At least the keyboard will.

One last thing, among my colleagues who are "medical professionals", 3 out of 10 still have our BBs (granted, we are in the land of original Crackberry). I have my Classic while wife has her iPhone. I wouldn't be caught dead using hers (third time I use that phrase).

My Classic is going strong (since Dec 2014). But I will cast a vote for BB and PKB's survival coming April (realistically probably toward the summer as I have to see how the real world review on Keyone pans out).

A word to TCL: ignore everything said by the poster (I mean the message ... with all due respect to the messenger).

Focus on the niche, and at least you will survive and carry on the "family name".

Competing with "Meizu" is a dead end.

Competing on "specs" alone is also a dead end. Glad they are not doing this.

[yessuz]

The trailer would be the equivalent to having an attachable keyboard? The Kickstarter keyboard attachment for the Moto Z Play is about $100 USD, should it ever be made. The KEYone is $150 USD premium over the Moto Z Play. It's not a huge difference and the KEYone would be a more manageable/sleeker device compared to a Moto Z Play with a keyboard attached.

No, I am not making precise analogy here. What I say, that it is not entirely sensible overpay twice.
we talk not 150. we talk 250 gbp, difference here. more over, all those xiaomis with 625 are available at 150 or so.
another thing, which I mentioned - the keyboard from kickstarter will have:
a) much worse supply chain
b) manufacturing costs will be much higher due to worse process
c) they have to make, at least, 30% profit (actually, probably a 100%) from keyboard alone.

so we can conclude, that keyboard for TCL will cost much less than 50.

The cost of raw parts is only part of the picture. You would still need to factor in the cost of parts for the volume produced. The KEYone would have a much more limited production run so parts will be more expensive to acquire.

that's why I put this as the cost base. this is fixed costs. variable costs would go down as volume becomes bigger, but I am not sure if this would be a significant part of the phone costs. if we use this older article, we'll see, that actually highest portion of costs are ones in BOM (which I still believe in total, having in mind volumes of million phones or more should be less than 100-150 USD>) How much does it cost to manufacture an iPhone? | Asymco

actually, looks like I am right:
https://recombu.com/mobile/article/d...n-625-435-2016
Snapdragon 820 SoC might cost $70
so probably, standard 625 SOC phone has total costs of 150 or less.
and difference between various similar Socs are quite similar, 820 costing 70 (as per article), and can asume 625 - costing around 50?

so in general, MAJORITY of costs will be parts, while manufacturing (process itself) should cost less than 30% of all costs.

The DTEK 60 also sells as the Idol 4S with some changes. There are a lot of shared parts that economy of scale lowers the cost of acquiring parts.

when you buy hundreds of thousands of same parts, cost difference between 100k and 100.000k of same parts to buy will be marginal.

You're speculating that the base cost of the DTEK 60 is about half of the sale price, correct? You're also speculating the KEYone is about $200-$250(max) USD to make? That would put the price at about $400-$500 USD. The price is $549 USD. It's about $50 USD more than what you speculate. That amount could be in the extra cost involved in the lower volume and some extra profit, sure, but it's not outrageous.

I am speculating, now, after revision, that KEYone costs to produce it is below 200 dollars. actually, 200 is probably the costs with absolutelly everything: distribution and marketing budget.
this is with different screen and keyboarad.

have in mind:
Buy Xiaomi Redmi Note 4 Pro 3GB 32GB Snapdragon 625 4G LTE - and they did make quite a hefty profit. you can buy them now for under 200$

[krazyatom]

Well said

Posted via CB10

[iUser]

I see that the physical keyboard isn't on your list of features, which, to me, means that for you, it's something "nice" to have, but it's not something you're willing to pay extra for, i.e. the physical keyboard has no additional benefit to you. If you were to buy a slab and add a keyboard, how much would you pay for the keyboard?

A smaller display with same size phone (in comparison to a slab phone) is the sacrifice/payment for it. Yes a PKB, especially from BlackBerry, is a benefit. But a bigger display is also a benefit, e.g. for reading.

For average mid range phone users today, a PKB is "nice to have". K1 will attract the average users, but they will then be shocked with the price.

I definitely won't compare K1 against iPhone. If K1 would run BB10.4 and there would be so much apps like in iOS ecosystem, I would not even say it is overpriced at $799.

[cbvinh]

No, I am not making precise analogy here. What I say, that it is not entirely sensible overpay twice.
we talk not 150. we talk 250 gbp, difference here. more over, all those xiaomis with 625 are available at 150 or so.

What can you expect from the Xiaomi's in terms of quality and design? Updates? Are they on par with Samsung, Apple, HTC, Sony, LG, etc.? If so, why would anyone pay for anything other than Xiaomi? There is something missing, otherwise they would dominate the market. Why are they even on the low-end?

another thing, which I mentioned - the keyboard from kickstarter will have:
a) much worse supply chain
b) manufacturing costs will be much higher due to worse process
c) they have to make, at least, 30% profit (actually, probably a 100%) from keyboard alone.

so we can conclude, that keyboard for TCL will cost much less than 50.

Are you saying the build on the Kickstarter keyboard will even be close to the one on the KEYone? Can you guarantee the Kickstarter keyboard will exist and have support?

that's why I put this as the cost base. this is fixed costs. variable costs would go down as volume becomes bigger, but I am not sure if this would be a significant part of the phone costs. if we use this older article, we'll see, that actually highest portion of costs are ones in BOM (which I still believe in total, having in mind volumes of million phones or more should be less than 100-150 USD>) How much does it cost to manufacture an iPhone? | Asymco

actually, looks like I am right:
https://recombu.com/mobile/article/d...n-625-435-2016
Snapdragon 820 SoC might cost $70
so probably, standard 625 SOC phone has total costs of 150 or less.
and difference between various similar Socs are quite similar, 820 costing 70 (as per article), and can asume 625 - costing around 50?

so in general, MAJORITY of costs will be parts, while manufacturing (process itself) should cost less than 30% of all costs.

This is all speculation. Until you have some concrete numbers, it's all guessing. First, can you explain how a top-of-the-line Xiaomi (or Axon) costs less than a Samsung to produce and yet you're not on Samsung forums complaining about the overpriced Samsung's? That is a slab to slab comparison with same specs.

when you buy hundreds of thousands of same parts, cost difference between 100k and 100.000k of same parts to buy will be marginal.

Is it? Why does Apple keep pressuring their parts suppliers? Why do manufacturers try to shave off pennies?

I am speculating, now, after revision, that KEYone costs to produce it is below 200 dollars. actually, 200 is probably the costs with absolutelly everything: distribution and marketing budget.
this is with different screen and keyboarad.

have in mind:
Buy Xiaomi Redmi Note 4 Pro 3GB 32GB Snapdragon 625 4G LTE - and they did make quite a hefty profit. you can buy them now for under 200$

How much is this hefty profit that Xiaomi makes? If it's such a better value, why aren't you getting a Redmi Note 4 instead of complaining about the price of the KEYone? You would be a fool to buy a KEYone for what BlackBerry Mobile is charging... unless there's value in the KEYone that the Redmi Note 4 doesn't have.

[cbvinh]

Is the main problem with the Xiaomi Redmi Note 4 it's software, which is a variant on Android?

From Android Central:

"Setting up the Redmi Note 4 is a hassle, as MIUI still doesn't offer a way to restore apps and settings. So you'll have to individually install apps from the Play Store after booting into the phone. Another issue is with the phone's settings, which is a jumbled mess in its current iteration. Settings you'd normally find on other Android phones are inexplicably missing, and the ones that are available aren't located where you'd expect. For instance, if you want to enable installation of apps from outside the Play Store (useful for installing apps like Spotify), you'll have to go to Settings -> Additional settings -> Privacy ->Unknown sources. On most other phones, it is at Settings -> Security -> Unknown sources.

Xiaomi is like the Alfa Romeo of phone brands. Its designs are evocative, and its customers are very passionate about the brand. And like all Alfas, Xiaomi's phones end up being quirky and frustrating to use. With the Redmi Note 4, that shows up in the form of annoying lock screen issues.

Lock screen notifications are a hit and miss in MIUI 8. While I receive all Gmail notifications, I'm yet to see one for Google's Messenger or Facebook Messenger. On the subject of notifications, MIUI 8 has a retooled notification shade that shows quick toggles and incoming messages in the same place. You can expand notifications, but doing so requires a zoom in gesture, not the best solution when you're using the phone one-handed.

Then there's the aggressive memory management. I use Minima for live wallpapers, and to get it to work, the app needs to be running in the background. Every time I closed the Minima app, the wallpaper switched back to the system default."

[yessuz]

What can you expect from the Xiaomi's in terms of quality and design? Updates? Are they on par with Samsung, Apple, HTC, Sony, LG, etc.? If so, why would anyone pay for anything other than Xiaomi? There is something missing, otherwise they would dominate the market. Why are they even on the low-end?

see, that's your problem. You have no clue and you try to prove something. Even Redmi Note 3, older one, released last year, already had full metal body, very fast fingerprint scanner, etc.
They receive monthly updates OTA. http://banga.tv3.lt/files/club/201601/56a688ce90cec.png can you imagine that?
They are on par brands you mentioned. just CHEAPER by price. there is a reason why they are called China's apple.
Mark my words - In few year time you will forget that you used to pay not 500, but even 400 for "medium" devices. Why anyone is paying for LG, HTC or sony? I do not know. people are crazy.

the only issue is - distribution channels. therefore - no much of dominance. because it is easier for average joe to go to walmart and to buy samsung off the shelf than to press few buttons and buy it from amazon. you know - brand recognition.
and they do not sell their phones to US or even Europe officially. yet. They are opening their first distribution center in Europe this year.

but brand - is the issue. that's why you are buying HiSense TV sets (which are very good ones!) in US as Sharp. that's why TCL is licensing Blackberry.

Are you saying the build on the Kickstarter keyboard will even be close to the one on the KEYone? Can you guarantee the Kickstarter keyboard will exist and have support?

This is all speculation. Until you have some concrete numbers, it's all guessing. First, can you explain how a top-of-the-line Xiaomi (or Axon) costs less than a Samsung to produce and yet you're not on Samsung forums complaining about the overpriced Samsung's? That is a slab to slab comparison with same specs.

I do not give a damn about samsung and any other android. Samsung is just another brand for android phone. like motorola, zte, htc. and now Blackberry. the only thing I am interested in - physical keyboard. for me it is the only diferentiator.but this does not make any difficulty to open my eyes and to take a look around.
to be honest I do have 2 XIAOMI phones at home: one for my wife (Redmi Note 3, with Snapdragon 650, and I paid whopping 130 GBP for it, including all the taxes), and another, as spare one (redmi note 2 with Helio X octacore chipset. this one cost me 100 pounds, but it is spare one, my daughter, aged 8, uses it for youtube, minecraft and other girly stuff).

Is it? Why does Apple keep pressuring their parts suppliers? Why do manufacturers try to shave off pennies?

because every penny counts. and if you save 1 dollar from 100.000.000 prieces - you save 100.000.000 dollars. that's why. but if apple will buy same part for 8 dollars and blackberry - for 8.50 or 9 - I See no massive difference here in the cost of one phone.

How much is this hefty profit that Xiaomi makes? If it's such a better value, why aren't you getting a Redmi Note 4 instead of complaining about the price of the KEYone? You would be a fool to buy a KEYone for what BlackBerry Mobile is charging... unless there's value in the KEYone that the Redmi Note 4 doesn't have.

I do not know what profit xiaomi makes. but I googled it. you should try as well (kind of useful, to read reviews on various sites, even on amazon). here's something for you to try to understand (I have a little faith in your success, but still). just let it sink for you here, those figures:

The writing was on the cards, even as early as January 2016 when Xiaomi revealed it had sold “over 70 million” devices in 2015.

Lei made the following reveals in his letter:

• Xiaomi reached $1 billion in annual revenue in India for the first time
• Three of Xiaomi’s 54 offline stores passed RMB 100 million ($14.5 million) in GMV this year each — the GMV includes sales of partner products — and it plans to open 200 more in 2017, and 1,000 more by 2020
• Xiaomi’s ‘Mi Ecosystem’ has 50 million connected devices — which includes smart TVs, fitness trackers and more — which brought in RMB 15 billion ($2.2 billion) in sales
• Xiaomi has applied for 16,000 patents globally, 3,612 of which have been granted to date
• Xiaomi’s revenue from “internet services” doubled in 2016 — it didn’t provide a figure but, based on a Reuters report from 2015, it appears to have surpassed $1 billion for the first time

these are numbers in India - that market BBRY tries to get in with that strange partner.
You see - they have bigger sales than Blackberry. without proper sales channels outside asia.

although as I understand - not so much profit from the mobile phones directly. but it's understandable. different business model and targets.
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/25/xi...ardware-sales/

The only reason why I am not buying one for myself - is PKB. if I didn't need one - I would use xiaomi device for more than one year now. the time I have that "spare" xiaomi redmi note 2.

I need to prove nothing. just try to pull your head through the cave hole and take a look around.

[yessuz]

Is the main problem with the Xiaomi Redmi Note 4 it's software, which is a variant on Android?

From Android Central:

"Setting up the Redmi Note 4 is a hassle, as MIUI still doesn't offer a way to restore apps and settings. So you'll have to individually install apps from the Play Store after booting into the phone. Another issue is with the phone's settings, which is a jumbled mess in its current iteration. Settings you'd normally find on other Android phones are inexplicably missing, and the ones that are available aren't located where you'd expect. For instance, if you want to enable installation of apps from outside the Play Store (useful for installing apps like Spotify), you'll have to go to Settings -> Additional settings -> Privacy ->Unknown sources. On most other phones, it is at Settings -> Security -> Unknown sources.

Xiaomi is like the Alfa Romeo of phone brands. Its designs are evocative, and its customers are very passionate about the brand. And like all Alfas, Xiaomi's phones end up being quirky and frustrating to use. With the Redmi Note 4, that shows up in the form of annoying lock screen issues.

Lock screen notifications are a hit and miss in MIUI 8. While I receive all Gmail notifications, I'm yet to see one for Google's Messenger or Facebook Messenger. On the subject of notifications, MIUI 8 has a retooled notification shade that shows quick toggles and incoming messages in the same place. You can expand notifications, but doing so requires a zoom in gesture, not the best solution when you're using the phone one-handed.

Then there's the aggressive memory management. I use Minima for live wallpapers, and to get it to work, the app needs to be running in the background. Every time I closed the Minima app, the wallpaper switched back to the system default."

miui is just a skin, like samsung's touch wiz.
there are other skins, roms etc. if you want - install vanilla android and forget the MIUI (which is, by the way, iOS ripOff )

the original, china roms have the issues with play store, as there is no google in china.. global roms - don't.

[cbvinh]

see, that's your problem. You have no clue and you try to prove something. Even Redmi Note 3, older one, released last year, already had full metal body, very fast fingerprint scanner, etc.
They receive monthly updates OTA. http://banga.tv3.lt/files/club/201601/56a688ce90cec.png can you imagine that?
They are on par brands you mentioned. just CHEAPER by price. there is a reason why they are called China's apple.
Mark my words - In few year time you will forget that you used to pay not 500, but even 400 for "medium" devices. Why anyone is paying for LG, HTC or sony? I do not know. people are crazy.

I admit, I haven't spent much time researching Xiaomi phones. They're not readily available here in the States and from what I've read so far, they're sold in flash sales typically, which doesn't interest me. It sounds even worse than pre-ordering. You have no idea if you'll get a phone or not?! Mainly, they don't produce a physical keyboard phone and don't have software that make them similar to the BB10 OS I'm used to.

I agree that phones are headed toward commodity items, much like computers, but there will still be what's considered luxury-brands, with Apple likely to be among them.

the only issue is - distribution channels. therefore - no much of dominance. because it is easier for average joe to go to walmart and to buy samsung off the shelf than to press few buttons and buy it from amazon. you know - brand recognition.
and they do not sell their phones to US or even Europe officially. yet. They are opening their first distribution center in Europe this year.

^This will start adding costs to their product...

but brand - is the issue. that's why you are buying HiSense TV sets (which are very good ones!) in US as Sharp. that's why TCL is licensing Blackberry.

Branding isn't cheap and that's also going to add costs.

I do not give a damn about samsung and any other android. Samsung is just another brand for android phone. like motorola, zte, htc. and now Blackberry. the only thing I am interested in - physical keyboard. for me it is the only diferentiator.but this does not make any difficulty to open my eyes and to take a look around.
to be honest I do have 2 XIAOMI phones at home: one for my wife (Redmi Note 3, with Snapdragon 650, and I paid whopping 130 GBP for it, including all the taxes), and another, as spare one (redmi note 2 with Helio X octacore chipset. this one cost me 100 pounds, but it is spare one, my daughter, aged 8, uses it for youtube, minecraft and other girly stuff).

You want what you want and if there's only one supplier, that's what you have to consider. Xiaomi sold their phones cheap because unlike other manufacturers, they sold direct, cutting out the middle people, i.e. distributors. Now they have to have distributors and branding. How much will that add to their pricing. The Moto Z Play is more comparable as it's also Chinese-made, distributed traditionally and branded. The KEYone is a $150 USD premium over the Moto Z Play, which is fair.

because every penny counts. and if you save 1 dollar from 100.000.000 prieces - you save 100.000.000 dollars. that's why. but if apple will buy same part for 8 dollars and blackberry - for 8.50 or 9 - I See no massive difference here in the cost of one phone.

To you, you're thinking in single unit terms when you buy. For Apple and other manufacturers, they're buying tons and that difference gets to be millions of dollars pretty quick. They could be /making/ another million, 10 million, etc.

I do not know what profit xiaomi makes. but I googled it. you should try as well (kind of useful, to read reviews on various sites, even on amazon). here's something for you to try to understand (I have a little faith in your success, but still). just let it sink for you here, those figures:

The writing was on the cards, even as early as January 2016 when Xiaomi revealed it had sold “over 70 million” devices in 2015.

Lei made the following reveals in his letter:

• Xiaomi reached $1 billion in annual revenue in India for the first time
• Three of Xiaomi’s 54 offline stores passed RMB 100 million ($14.5 million) in GMV this year each — the GMV includes sales of partner products — and it plans to open 200 more in 2017, and 1,000 more by 2020
• Xiaomi’s ‘Mi Ecosystem’ has 50 million connected devices — which includes smart TVs, fitness trackers and more — which brought in RMB 15 billion ($2.2 billion) in sales
• Xiaomi has applied for 16,000 patents globally, 3,612 of which have been granted to date
• Xiaomi’s revenue from “internet services” doubled in 2016 — it didn’t provide a figure but, based on a Reuters report from 2015, it appears to have surpassed $1 billion for the first time

these are numbers in India - that market BBRY tries to get in with that strange partner.
You see - they have bigger sales than Blackberry. without proper sales channels outside asia.

although as I understand - not so much profit from the mobile phones directly. but it's understandable. different business model and targets.
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/25/xi...ardware-sales/

I did google for their profit. This is what I found:

Xiaomi in numbers: the rise and fall of the phone maker | WIRED UK

Company worth $45 billion in 2014 to $3.6 billion now, 2017.
Growth slowdown in 2016, so didn't report sales numbers.
40% drop in sales in 2nd Quarter 2016 compared to same quarter 2015.

Xiaomi will not release 2016 smartphone sales numbers | Pocketnow

"Still, there’s no denying the company “pushed ahead too fast in the first few years”, drawing on “some long-term growth”, with a slowdown and product consolidation now needed. Then again, Lei Jun is certain “the worst is over.”"

Sounds like they grew a bunch but didn't make a bunch of money. Revenue doesn't equal profit, as BlackBerry has taught us many times.

You did say they made a hefty profit selling those $200 USD phones before. I guess you've corrected yourself to say they're not, which begs the question of whether those $200 phones are realistic.

The only reason why I am not buying one for myself - is PKB. if I didn't need one - I would use xiaomi device for more than one year now. the time I have that "spare" xiaomi redmi note 2.

I need to prove nothing. just try to pull your head through the cave hole and take a look around.

What you've pointed out with Xiaomi is that you can sell something really cheap and drive the company toward the ground. Xiaomi will have to correct itself and that will probably mean higher prices.

[cbvinh]

miui is just a skin, like samsung's touch wiz.
there are other skins, roms etc. if you want - install vanilla android and forget the MIUI (which is, by the way, iOS ripOff )

the original, china roms have the issues with play store, as there is no google in china.. global roms - don't.

The average consumer isn't about installing ROM's. Maybe if you've spent $200 USD on something and it's buggy, you might spend the time to fix it, but if you're spending $549, you expect it to work and that's part of what you're paying for in a KEYone.

[mister2d]

Xiaomi phones have no appeal to me in the States. Sketchy LTE support and an Apple wannabe. No thanks. The name doesn't even roll off the tongue good when responding to what kind of phone it is.

PASS

[Bbnivende]

In fairness, it may cost more per unit to develop and manufacture a KEYone compared to a better spec'd high volume smartphone. It is not all gravy.

Posted via CB10

[iUser]

What can you expect from the Xiaomi's in terms of quality and design? Updates? Are they on par with Samsung, Apple, HTC, Sony, LG, etc.? If so, why would anyone pay for anything other than Xiaomi? There is something missing, otherwise they would dominate the market. Why are they even on the low-end?

Are you saying the build on the Kickstarter keyboard will even be close to the one on the KEYone? Can you guarantee the Kickstarter keyboard will exist and have support?

This is all speculation. Until you have some concrete numbers, it's all guessing. First, can you explain how a top-of-the-line Xiaomi (or Axon) costs less than a Samsung to produce and yet you're not on Samsung forums complaining about the overpriced Samsung's? That is a slab to slab comparison with same specs.

How much is this hefty profit that Xiaomi makes? If it's such a better value, why aren't you getting a Redmi Note 4 instead of complaining about the price of the KEYone? You would be a fool to buy a KEYone for what BlackBerry Mobile is charging... unless there's value in the KEYone that the Redmi Note 4 doesn't have.

Xiaomi made phones are not bad. They're just not that special. I have a Redmi Note 2 and it is not bad at all.

Samsung release prices for phones were, are and will be always overpriced. It is just to be expected from them though.

The only reason why many "overpriced" sayers (incl. me) are here is the keyboard. Isn't it obvious? By stating that K1 is overpriced we don't mean that K1 would be bad or we aren't interested. The price (with that specification) just made it harder to decide "buy it at release". Would you say it is overpriced if the processor just SD801 with only 2GB RAM? If you would say no, then that would explain everything.

Why so many complainers here? I think it is because some of them - I think - want BlackBerry gadgets to survive. BlackBerry devices are interesting in the world full of slab phones. But as we have seen what happened with Priv, which was a high end one at the time of release, BlackBerry Mobile is not so gifted with a good pricing strategy. Maybe bad advertising? Probably. And to be honest, K1 could be the very last chance for a PKB phone to get a tiny market share.

[cbvinh]

Xiaomi made phones are not bad. They're just not that special. I have a Redmi Note 2 and it is not bad at all.

Their phones look decent enough, just not sustainable at the prices they're selling at. Their strategy has been to sell phones at next to nothing to grow services.

(link provided by yessuz)

https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/25/xi...ardware-sales/

"Xiaomi’s business model isn’t about selling handsets, except insofar as those handset sales lead to recurring service revenue later on."

"Barra explained that Xiaomi “could sell 10 billion smartphones and [the company] wouldn’t make a single dime in profits,” speaking to Reuters, adding that Xiaomi is essentially giving away its smartphones “without making any money,” because ultimately it “care[s] about the recurring revenue streams over many years” rather than immediate margins on hardware."

Samsung release prices for phones were, are and will be always overpriced. It is just to be expected from them though.

They should probably see a huge drop in sales, then, right? Given the complaints about the KEYone pricing, Samsung should be worse off.

The only reason why many "overpriced" sayers (incl. me) are here is the keyboard. Isn't it obvious? By stating that K1 is overpriced we don't mean that K1 would be bad or we aren't interested. The price (with that specification) just made it harder to decide "buy it at release". Would you say it is overpriced if the processor just SD801 with only 2GB RAM? If you would say no, then that would explain everything.

If TCL put in an 801, then you would have an agreement that it's overpriced.

TCL didn't put in an old processor. They put in the latest "i5 from Intel", a chip targeted at the mid-range market, but has the latest fabrication techniques and features for today. Mid-range in 2017 exceeds high-end of 2013, which is the 801 you speak of.

Why so many complainers here? I think it is because some of them - I think - want BlackBerry gadgets to survive. BlackBerry devices are interesting in the world full of slab phones. But as we have seen what happened with Priv, which was a high end one at the time of release, BlackBerry Mobile is not so gifted with a good pricing strategy. Maybe bad advertising? Probably. And to be honest, K1 could be the very last chance for a PKB phone to get a tiny market share.

DTEK 50 is $299 USD and DTEK 60 is $499 USD, both about $100 USD premium over the Alcatel's, which implies $100 for BlackBerry's security and software. If you don't value BlackBerry's additions, you can buy an Alcatel.

KEYone is $549 USD. Unlike the DTEK's, there is no volume production of equivalent Alcatel's to leverage from. If BlackBerry still gets a $100 premium, then the KEYone is $449, if priced at volume, which seems to be roughly what some people say it should sell for. TCL could always release a KEYone equivalent to sell for less, but what's their incentive to do so? The KEYone won't be selling in volume, like the DTEK's and Idol's. The market isn't ready for a resurgence where physical keyboards dominate. The pricing looks fair and reasonable, not outrageous or price gouging to a captive audience who want keyboards.

The complaints have compared the KEYone to slabs and not just any slabs, but slabs sold at next to zero profit. There's no way TCL can compete with that and it's unfair to characterize their pricing is at fault. Those slabs should be looked at as an anomaly in pricing, not the standard pricing.

[BlackBerryPassport]

This phone will be a hotcake only for the employees working in BlackBerry i.e. John Chen and team.

Posted via CB10

[iUser]

They should probably see a huge drop in sales, then, right? Given the complaints about the KEYone pricing, Samsung should be worse off.

If TCL put in an 801, then you would have an agreement that it's overpriced.

TCL didn't put in an old processor. They put in the latest "i5 from Intel", a chip targeted at the mid-range market, but has the latest fabrication techniques and features for today. Mid-range in 2017 exceeds high-end of 2013, which is the 801 you speak of.

The complaints have compared the KEYone to slabs and not just any slabs, but slabs sold at next to zero profit. There's no way TCL can compete with that and it's unfair to characterize their pricing is at fault. Those slabs should be looked at as an anomaly in pricing, not the standard pricing.

Not really. Samsung has a big fans-community since it has copied iPhone with the very 1st Galaxy S.

Well ok then it is still reasonable. I maybe should take 810 instead of 801

I do agree that some slab phones are not making any profits. But they intend to get some market share. Back then in 2007, BlackBerry has made enough profit from its devices. Now, after some fiasco - imo - it is time for fetching some market share again.