[Bbnivende]

Note BlackBerry mention:

https://wccftech.com/apple-iphone-xr...nalys-q1-2019/

[bb10adopter111]

I have BB for the security on Android. I used to think I cared about pkb. I realized I truly don't care in the end.

I should honestly probably use a Motion instead of KeyOne.

I largely agree. For me the main value of the KEY phones is in the use of the PKB as hardware shortcut buttons to mitigate the hell that is Android navigation.

[bb10adopter111]

Note BlackBerry mention:

https://wccftech.com/apple-iphone-xr...nalys-q1-2019/

Wow. TLC NA Shipments grew by 31% after a rough couple of years. That is a bit encouraging. If they really do have 4% NA market share and are ranked at number 5 (number 4 among Android OEMs), ahead of Google, OnePlus, Sony, Nokia, Motorola, etc., then they are still in the fight, especially with carriers.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Wow. TLC NA Shipments grew by 31% after a rough couple of years. That is a bit encouraging. If they really do have 4% NA market share and are ranked at number 5 (number 4 among Android OEMs), ahead of Google, OnePlus, Sony, Nokia, Motorola, etc., then they are still in the fight, especially with carriers.

Motorola is Lenovo
Sony is a dead man walking
OnePlus and Nokia have only now enter the US with (in the last quarter)
Google has been for the most part been just on Verizon

Clearly the growth in the US Market is in the $100 (Alactel) and $200 - $300 (Motorola) devices. Which is why Google has their 3a hitting the market.

Overall TCL sales declined in the last quarter on the global scale...

But signs of that Verizon KEY2 LE are positive for BBMo.... that wouldn't be happening if enterprise wasn't asking for it.

[bb10adopter111]

Thanks for the correction re: Motorola/Lenovo. I really don't keep up with the mobile handset business, obviously.

The only strategic question for NA is who still has a seat at the carrier support table as the music winds down. Will carriers support the the top 3 or the top 4 or the top 5? Will TCL's portfolio of brands help? To me the biggest takeaway is the dramatic decline in YoY LG sales. They have a lot of display space at AT&T. Could TCL capture some of that with Alcatel/BBMo/Palm or will it all go to Lenovo/Google?

[IceCreamPlz]

Thanks for the correction re: Motorola/Lenovo. I really don't keep up with the mobile handset business, obviously.

The only strategic question for NA is who still has a seat at the carrier support table as the music winds down. Will carriers support the the top 3 or the top 4 or the top 5? Will TCL's portfolio of brands help? To me the biggest takeaway is the dramatic decline in YoY LG sales. They have a lot of display space at AT&T. Could TCL capture some of that with Alcatel/BBMo/Palm or will it all go to Lenovo/Google?

Why do you think it takes a seat at the table and influence? The carriers are happy to support a device brand that encourages re-ups (subscriber re-adds).

In some cases, that is brand "staying power" and financial support by the oem in other cases.

It's a partnership. Not an adversary. Some partnerships are more fruitful than others. It's as simple as that.

[bb10adopter111]

Why do you think it takes a seat at the table and influence? The carriers are happy to support a device brand that encourages re-ups (subscriber re-adds).

In some cases, that is brand "staying power" and financial support by the oem in other cases.

It's a partnership. Not an adversary. Some partnerships are more fruitful than others. It's as simple as that.

I think we're saying the same thing. An OEM gets a "seat at the table" by being valuable to the carriers. It's an economic partnership. But the carriers don't want to carry any more brands than they have to to meet their goals. AT&T, for example, typically features three OEMS (Samsung, Apple and LG). For the past two years, they have been the ones with a seat, so to speak.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I think we're saying the same thing. An OEM gets a "seat at the table" by being valuable to the carriers. It's an economic partnership. But the carriers don't want to carry any more brands than they have to to meet their goals. AT&T, for example, typically features three OEMS (Samsung, Apple and LG). For the past two years, they have been the ones with a seat, so to speak.

Posted with my trusty Z10

I think that for Alcatel to fill that space, they need more than just entry level phones. That they showed some designed of foldables at MWC, means they are at least considering moving back up into better products.

Problem I see is OnePlus... T-Mobile gave them a seat, and with Verizon and AT&T loosing subscribers at a concerning rate, they'll have to look at both their PLANS and the HARDWARE offerings. TCL is a long way from offering what Huawei, Oppo and OnePlus are offering. Quality Control, Hardware in general, Software - maybe they have time to rebuild into a better company? Or maybe Verizon and AT&T look at where the World Market already is? And with BYOD somewhat starting to expand here....

[bb10adopter111]

I think that for Alcatel to fill that space, they need more than just entry level phones. That they showed some designed of foldables at MWC, means they are at least considering moving back up into better products.

Problem I see is OnePlus... T-Mobile gave them a seat, and with Verizon and AT&T loosing subscribers at a concerning rate, they'll have to look at both their PLANS and the HARDWARE offerings. TCL is a long way from offering what Huawei, Oppo and OnePlus are offering. Quality Control, Hardware in general, Software - maybe they have time to rebuild into a better company? Or maybe Verizon and AT&T look at where the World Market already is? And with BYOD somewhat starting to expand here....

You may have better instincts than I, but I can't imagine the same consumers caring about BlackBerry Mobile and the Chinese brands you mention. The sub-$400 market just seems to me like an invitation to oblivion for all but the very lowest cost producer.

Generally, a single low cost producer wins the low end of most markets, with a handful of differentiated middle-class producers and 2-3 premium producers.

TCL's only profitable play, IMO, has got to be in the $450-$650 price range, with premium range margins, both to attract carriers and retailers and ensure economic profits at lower volumes.

We know they aren't crushing it. The question is whether they are still in the game. Right now, survival is the most important objective.

If I had to bet, I'd say that Google, Samsung, LG, and Lenovo will survive the shakeout in the middle/premium class, assuming LG can live with half their previous market share. TLC is still a question mark, but the fact that they've been pretty consistently available is a credit to the BBMo distribution team.

Without really knowing the margins and break-even points, I find these discussions speculative, but much too qualitative.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

You may have better instincts than I, but I can't imagine the same consumers caring about BlackBerry Mobile and the Chinese brands you mention. The sub-$400 market just seems to me like an invitation to oblivion for all but the very lowest cost producer.

Generally, a single low cost producer wins the low end of most markets, with a handful of differentiated middle-class producers and 2-3 premium producers.

TCL's only profitable play, IMO, has got to be in the $450-$650 price range, with premium range margins, both to attract carriers and retailers and ensure economic profits at lower volumes.

We know they aren't crushing it. The question is whether they are still in the game. Right now, survival is the most important objective.

If I had to bet, I'd say that Google, Samsung, LG, and Lenovo will survive the shakeout in the middle/premium class, assuming LG can live with half their previous market share. TLC is still a question mark, but the fact that they've been pretty consistently available is a credit to the BBMo distribution team.

Without really knowing the margins and break-even points, I find these discussions speculative, but much too qualitative.

I'm not even talking about BBMo... reality is that's a niche PKB option at best. TCL gaining traction in the US has nothing to do with BBMo or even BlackBerry Security. It's Alcatel's cheap phones that every carrier now offers.

LG and Sony are both talking about their smartphone business ending... they have to, as they are bleeding money and its been that way for a number of quarters. Lenovo/Moto - is doing well but sales are slipping.

Nokia is the one that I expected the US market (carrier's) to pickup... it's not a Chinese company and it offers quality products at good prices. But they've barley been able to get any attention here, and their prospects aren't doing too well against those Chinese giants (Huawei and BBK Electronics) in other markets. In fact a year ago they were on that 10 ten list... their being dropped isn't because someone is doing that much better. But that they are doing so much worse than they were last year. They went from 4-5 million a quarter to less than what TCL did last quarter?

In the end... who knows what OEM will still be around in five years? TCL might come up with a "working" foldable phone that can sell for less than $1000 and sell 10's of millions.

[bb10adopter111]

I'm not even talking about BBMo... reality is that's a niche PKB option at best. TCL gaining traction in the US has nothing to do with BBMo or even BlackBerry Security. It's Alcatel's cheap phones that every carrier now offers.

LG and Sony are both talking about their smartphone business ending... they have to, as they are bleeding money and its been that way for a number of quarters. Lenovo/Moto - is doing well but sales are slipping.

Nokia is the one that I expected the US market (carrier's) to pickup... it's not a Chinese company and it offers quality products at good prices. But they've barley been able to get any attention here, and their prospects aren't doing too well against those Chinese giants (Huawei and BBK Electronics) in other markets. In fact a year ago they were on that 10 ten list... their being dropped isn't because someone is doing that much better. But that they are doing so much worse than they were last year. They went from 4-5 million a quarter to less than what TCL did last quarter?

In the end... who knows what OEM will still be around in five years? TCL might come up with a "working" foldable phone that can sell for less than $1000 and sell 10's of millions.

Carriers are the only ones who will profit (through data plans) from the sale of cheap phones. Perhaps they will subsidize them to the point where one or two OEMs can make a few pennies, but I doubt TCL will ever get their costs that low. It's the middle class or bust for any OEM not named Apple or Samsung or that can't win a race to the bottom.

[Bbnivende]

The Google 3a could really be popular. Excellent camera and good security (if not privacy). $399 before incentives.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Carriers are the only ones who will profit (through data plans) from the sale of cheap phones. Perhaps they will subsidize them to the point where one or two OEMs can make a few pennies, but I doubt TCL will ever get their costs that low. It's the middle class or bust for any OEM not named Apple or Samsung or that can't win a race to the bottom.

Huawei and BBK Electronic... are doing just fine with their above middle class devices.

According to the Q4 2018 numbers, OnePlus is now the fifth largest smartphone maker in the US market for phones costing more than $500. That puts it up there with Samsung and Apple.

And that's with only one US Carrier offering it for a portion of that quarter.... In India, they are the premium smartphone leader, beating both Samsung and Apple.

But I agree no one that focuses only on the bottom is going to last... TCL or Alcatel have to expand back into the middle ground if they have any hope at profitability. And that will require them to offer updates.

[silentbystander]

The answer is: economics.

Given the low production volumes, BBMo's Key series phones are a financial bargain for anyone looking for a PKB phone - yet relatively few people bought one, and people complain about the high prices, poor camera (post-processing and driver optimization is very expensive and there's only a handful of people on the planet who are good at it), and lack of other features - meaning the phones aren't really competitive except for the PKB, and that only applies to those few who want it.

If you are a business, you have to make profits or you won't survive. And there is a point where low volumes raise the unit price to the point where there's no way to profit, because you lose economies of scale.

BBMo is already to the point where prices are high and they can't afford traditional advertising, and can't get carrier support. If only 1M customers buy a BBMo phone as things are today, how many would pay twice the price for the same phones so that BB could afford some print and TV advertising? Not many - in fact, sales would plummet.

It's the reason there are no more Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, Plymouths, or Mercury vehicles - there just wasn't a way to keep those car brands around as separate brands anymore, because competition from other companies ate so much domestic marketshare that it's no longer financially viable.

For the first 3-4 years of Android phones, most phones came with a PKB, but when the Galaxy S2 was released, a lot of people chose to forego the PKB, and when the S3 was released, people ditched the PKB in droves in favor of a thinner phone with a larger screen that could be used for lots of things that few ever bothered with on PKB phones with small screens - and the world changed. Manufacturers still offered PKB phones for a while, but they didn't sell and manufacturers lost money - so they discontinued them and saw their profits rise. If those phones still made money, manufacturers would still make them - but they don't.

And, really, it's that simple. Businesses need to make money, so they sell products that make profits. PKB phones, at best, barely make profits, and we may have gotten to the point where they no longer do, even for BBMo.

None of this was unknown when TCL licensed the BB name and BBMo was born into existence. All of BBMo should be shuttered. They provide zero value add. TCL should bring the PKB project in-house, pay whatever licensing fees they need to in order to make use of the Blackberry PKB, and rid itself of Blackberry LTD for software. Until they trim the organizational fat, profits will be a pipe dream

[the_boon]

TCL should bring the PKB project in-house, pay whatever licensing fees they need to in order to make use of the Blackberry PKB, and rid itself of Blackberry LTD for software. Until they trim the organizational fat, profits will be a pipe dream

"The all new TCL KEY3" sounds kind of awkward lol but I'd take it if it's that or nothing

[Invictus0]

"The all new TCL KEY3" sounds kind of awkward lol but I'd take it if it's that or nothing

Palm branding would make more sense than TCL or Alcatel if they ever give up on BlackBerry. An Android One physical keyboard device would be pretty neat.

[bb10adopter111]

Personally, I think the PKB is the LEAST relevant component of BlackBerry Android in 2019, even if it is the most iconic.

I've written over five million words with BlackBerry PKBs since 2005 and millions more with BlackBerry 's VKBs since 2013. I currently split my time between a Z10 and a KEYone. If I have to crank out an article, white paper, blog post or high stakes email, I still grab the Z10.

Once gestures arrive on Android Q, i'd probably prefer a slab, but I'd pay extra for a PKB or slab with better security and privacy than a Pixel- style Droid.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[bh7171]

Even now, for some things I prefer my XR over my KEYone for the larger screen.[/QUOTE]

It's only because your eyes are old. 😀. I use my S9 for similar reasons but prefer the form factor and battery life of my BE Keyone as my daily. I could never use a wider device, like the XR (my daughter owns and uses one) as it feels odd after carrying and using a narrower S9 and BE. Good all touch device outside of width.

[Troy Tiscareno]

None of this was unknown when TCL licensed the BB name and BBMo was born into existence. All of BBMo should be shuttered. They provide zero value add. TCL should bring the PKB project in-house, pay whatever licensing fees they need to in order to make use of the Blackberry PKB, and rid itself of Blackberry LTD for software. Until they trim the organizational fat, profits will be a pipe dream

I agree with this. I never understood why TCL wouldn't have just ran everything through their existing Alcatel infrastructure. Setting up BBMo was a waste IMO, unless they thought that doing so might somehow get them enterprise sales, which largely haven't happened at all. So, given that BB is almost completely a consumer brand now, they really have no need for BBMo. Alcatel and BB should be made, distributed, and supported side by side, IMO.

I suppose BB might have insisted on the creation of BBMo, though - you never know what someone puts in a contract...

[RLeeSimon]

hmmm... 5 year plans sound like Communism of the last century...

[chain13]

None of this was unknown when TCL licensed the BB name and BBMo was born into existence. All of BBMo should be shuttered. They provide zero value add. TCL should bring the PKB project in-house, pay whatever licensing fees they need to in order to make use of the Blackberry PKB, and rid itself of Blackberry LTD for software. Until they trim the organizational fat, profits will be a pipe dream

Agree.

TCL is actually (I believe) more than capable of making pkb devices. But just get rid of blackberry off of it because there is no meaning in it. They could just put stock android one like nokia does and focus on building competitive hardware at the price point and let google handle the OS. Give it 2 years OS update and 3 years security patches would work for both regular and enterprise user that use their private phone for work. Blackberry branded and fancy stuffs just adding more tax to the price.

[Troy Tiscareno]

The Google 3a could really be popular. Excellent camera and good security (if not privacy). $399 before incentives.

Google intentionally has very little advertising and makes devices in small numbers. They aren't trying to gain market share, rather they are trying to influence their other OEMs. They have no intention of being a real competitor to their OEMs - that would be a good way to lose them and hurt Android in the process. Google doesn't need the Pixels to be successful (they just need to break even) - they need Android to be successful, so the Pixels are just to steer the ship a bit.

[Bbnivende]

Google intentionally has very little advertising and makes devices in small numbers. They aren't trying to gain market share, rather they are trying to influence their other OEMs. They have no intention of being a real competitor to their OEMs - that would be a good way to lose them and hurt Android in the process. Google doesn't need the Pixels to be successful (they just need to break even) - they need Android to be successful, so the Pixels are just to steer the ship a bit.

This article is one of many similar:

https://medium.com/@techoutofthebox/...r-d788f2b2b942

The point is for only $400 you are getting a phone with a good camera. Apple / Samsung may be forced to respond.

[bb10adopter111]

The point is for only $400 you are getting a phone with a good camera. Apple / Samsung may be forced to respond.

That sounds great for consumers who are comfortable with Google, glass slabs and vanilla Android and who care about having such a camera.

Apple is obviously the target, because Google doesn't care if people buy a Pixel or a Samsung, so long as they stay in the Google ecosystem.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Bbnivende]

That sounds great for consumers who are comfortable with Google, glass slabs and vanilla Android and who care about having such a camera.

Apple is obviously the target, because Google doesn't care if people buy a Pixel or a Samsung, so long as they stay in the Google ecosystem.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Google needed to stem the losses.

A phone with a crappy camera is not acceptable at the $400 level.